TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[Gator]

Your philosophy and my philosophy do overlap considerably.  I wandered around Russia and Ukraine for 6 years.

My "lecturing" was unnecessary given that you have had a serious relationship with a RW, something I was unaware of.

I have tried the long correspondence approach, the short correspondence approach and the no correspondence approach.  All can work in the sense that none prevent being able to recognize Ms. Right.

My best fishing resulted from selecting 30-40 RW based on their profiles, writing each of them, exchanging 2-3 more letters with those who responded to uncover critical issues (e. g., children), focusing on about 10, calling them several times to get a feel for chemistry, and then visiting as many as possible.

The problem is the women typically are scattered over 3 time zones, and to visit each is impossible.  Further, it requires time because each visit was for a day or two (not just coffee and tort).  Yet, almost all were a high quality date.

I do not wish to cloud your T/R with a WOVO vs WMVM debate so this is my last post.  Good luck in your future searches.  Ms. Right for Jerry is there somewhere.

[Simoni]

Hey Jerry.

Nice to get an update from you!

My reaction is:

~ There is no such thing as a wasted trip.  You live and learn and enjoy all of life, and the days in the FSU are special indeed.

~ You are wise NOT to settle. If it takes 2 times 20 trips, the only thing that matters in the end is that you find the right girl to be with you.  Don't compromise.

Personally, I made many trips.  I could have "settled" after the first one, but I did not.  Several years later, I found my best match.  I shudder to think what would have happened if I had been impatient.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights.

Simoni

[CaptB]

Hi Jerry,

My first Russian city was Tver. Great place......lots of good memories. After having had eight trips to Russia......WMVM.....WOVO.....agency.....no agency.....personally I would settle on Gator's idea of choosing many......very short correspondence to weed-out large discrepancies regarding life philosophy....children.....etc. In my first trip to Russia (Tver).....I did just that. Introduction letters (16)......after some prescreening on the phone through LTP. I would still recomend such a process....especially for first timers. There is one Russian-owned agency I would recomend......MAKSIM's....in Yoskar-Ola. Vaughn probably has more expertise on that region.

To the gentleman that is nervous about a possible 20+ trips in this endeavor.....I say......could take that many time.....or more........or maybe no amount of trips will do the job. Being in the right place at the right......has as much to do with this process....as careful planning (which..."hopefully"...will increase your odds). My attitude was always pretty much like yours.....it was also a "vacation".....and I was going to have a good time.....despite the outcome of my RW search portion of the trip. 20 trips.......compared to my dating a few hundred women......before settling on one to marry.....at age 30......my first time around. Not alot in my (personal)experience.

I got "lucky" finding my wife. Initially I was looking for a guide/interpreter for the next city I would be visiting (Stavropol). After meeting her friends, family, coworkers.....I knew I was on the right path. No hurry in this process (if you are smart)......it always takes.......as long as it takes.......for everyone.


Capt B 

[acrzybear]

Aviator1

I have to say reading your posts made me cringe. If your avitar is you? Your a handsome young man who should not have a problem in the physical attraction department. Most men dont have this going for them. So count yourself lucky.

My point being you are not ready to go to the local club and try and find a date much less 5000 miles away. You do not have the right mind set yet. I think you need to work on your inner self. Your frame of mind needs work.

Dont take this as a bash I'm trying to help. Its about like telling someone they have bad breath. It needs to be done but hard to say.

SMS60

I have met with Jerry and I can assure you if there is a guy with his big head in the game-he is the one.  Jerry has a specific set of criteria he wants (not unreasonable criteria) and unlike some of the folks around here, he won't compromise his principles.  Everyone has a method that worked for them, but may not work for others.  Jerry is a pretty laid back guy, but will not hesitate to speak his mind.  He is an experienced traveler and he is doing things how he wants to.

[UTRO]

Well Jerry, sorry for your Luck. On the surface you seem intelligent, humorous, attractive, polite, well versed......
But my gosh.... after 20 Trips....??!! maybe Russian Pearls can read you better than you can read yourself?
Perhaps there is something there that they saw with you in person, that we don't see here behind a keyboard?
Sorry Jerry, you either have a personality trait that I and others don't readily detect, or you are like my 46 year old single best friend who has never been married, thinks the world of himself and yet can't make a decision about the right woman because he is afraid to make a commitment?? No offense Jerry, but after 20 visits I'd be married and divorced at least half a dozen times  

[Daveman]

Well Jerry, sorry for your Luck. On the surface you seem intelligent, humorous, attractive, polite, well versed......
But my gosh.... after 20 Trips....??!! maybe Russian Pearls can read you better than you can read yourself?
Perhaps there is something there that they saw with you in person, that we don't see here behind a keyboard?
Sorry Jerry, you either have a personality trait that I and others don't readily detect, or you are like my 46 year old single best friend who has never been married, thinks the world of himself and yet can't make a decision about the right woman because he is afraid to make a commitment?? No offense Jerry, but after 20 visits I'd be married and divorced at least half a dozen times  

Who was it who said we need to meet/date 500 members of the opposite sex to find our soul mate?  I can't remember, but to suggest that something is wrong with the guy because he hasn't met a lady he wants to marry within 20 trips is monday morning quarterbacking at best.

He did have some relationships which didn't pan out, and some trips which didn't lead anywhere.  Only a real blithering idiot would marry a lady he didn't love. He's obviously not a sex tourist..  I'm sure he's quite capable of defending himself, but I think it's much more beneficial to learn from his experiences as opposed to playing armchair psychologists...  Color me an idiot but I don't get it...

[Simoni]

He did have some relationships which didn't pan out, and some trips which didn't lead anywhere.  Only a real blithering idiot would marry a lady he didn't love.

Good post, Daveman...and excellent point.  For example, I made 6 or 7 trips with one woman that in the end did not work out.  That would be 1/3 of Jerry's 20.    So the numbers really don't mean much.  What matters is how it ends.

~~~~~Everything works out in the end. If it hasn't worked out, it's not the end.~~~~~

[GoodOlBoy]

... Save it guys, this is my opinion based on my experience of well over 20 trips to the FSU (I quit counting at 20) in which I have used a number of different agencies.

I didn't even do that on my first trip in 2004, let alone now.... 

Well over 20 trips in 4+ years.

Maybe 30?


GOB

[CaptB]

Some guys hit the bars (or other places) every weekend (52 times a year).....for much more than than "4 years".......lets see......52 x 4 = 208 visits.......and still no prospects. How about 5, 6, 7, 8.......20+ years of looking. Foreign country, language barriers, cultural barriers.....time.....money etc. For those posting comments about "20 visits"........especially those folks who have not got their feet wet yet (ie their first trip)......take a good look at your own dating histories. I spent ten or so years looking before my first marriage to an AW. My dating life was full.....I was in no hurry......things were fine.

I love Russia.......it suits my style......and RW are part of that equation. Some get really lucky......and find someone.....even on a "first trip" (but the odds are small).....and they will remain happy (smaller odds still) for a very long time. Then there those (myself).......somewhere in the middle.......who are still lucky......to find someone in (approx.) 3 to a dozen trips.......and find somewone who meets "most" of their criteria (people are not perfect......so I hesitate to use the word "all"). Then there are those folks that will exceed a dozen trips (or "20").....and luck just did not come early.

I found my partner in 6 visits......but it just as easily could have been 20....or more. Visiting Russia was a great hobby (still is...though visits are now less frequent). For the folks who have not even made a single visit.....I would reserve comments until after that time. If you have the time....and the money.....for "many" visits......there are worse things you could be doing.


Capt B

[Kuna]

Jerry,

Great to hear from you again...  I see your journey continues and you remain positive.  That's a good thing!

I also see some members here of the opinion you should have found someone by now... Other say there's no problem with your approach.  The only thing that matters is this....  ARE YOU HAPPY?

Now,  you know you'd be more fulfilled if you'd found and married "The One" by now... but if you're not unhappy there's no need to change you approach.

When I was dating at home I was unhappy because I was continually meeting the wrong ones (for many reasons) so I changed my approach.  I looked to Ukraine and for me it all clicked into place instantly.

My only advice for you is to be realistic to yourself ABOUT yourself.  Are you happy?  If you are then continue - because life is about happiness.  If not you might want to reconsider your approach, decisions, directions or locations. 

I will add one thing.  Brutal/brunt/unwavering honesty doesn't work.  Doesn't work with local women and doesn't work with FSUW.  All women (before marriage and especially after marriage) appreciate tact, chivalry and a little charm.  There's MANY situations when you shouldn't blurt out the blatant truth - and one of those situations will be the question about whether you are meeting other women or not.  Be assured most women will expect you are, especially if you didn't have a long writing campaign.  There's no need to rub her nose in it just as you're meeting and getting a sense of what a relationship MIGHT be like.

All the best for you in 2009.

(p.s. my journey has a new passenger now since my wife gave birth to our first son 3 months ago.)

[Brianinaz]

Jerry

Good to see you and I'm glad to see you're back out there. I agree with you; blind stupid luck is a good portion of the success stories here.

For those who suggest there must be some character defect to account for 20+ trips the comments by CaptB are quite correct. Most trips are what 10-14 days? That's 280+ days over 4+ years. Now if you're like me when I was single I was looking just about every day; work, grocery store, domestic internet and finally the other side of the planet. I was single for just under 5 years or about 1800 days before I found the right lady so 280+ days? Jerry you're slakin man, pick up the pace buddy.

Further, while there are no hard data consider the number of keyboard Romeo's out there; surely in the tens of thousands if not well over a hundred thousand at any given time. And the number of those who get on a plane; much smaller maybe in the thousands. And the number of us who are successful and marry one of those lovely ladies; much smaller still. Most either never get out of the chair or give up after a couple of trips. Odds of success from firing off letters to marriage way less than 1% so it's suprising to someone that the guy hasn't been successful yet.

Which brings me to a conclusion. I have diagnosed your character defect. It's persistence. I will see if I can find an ICD-9 diagnostic code for it and you can do the truly American thing and file a disability claim so you can spend more time on this endeavor.

It's been said before that people are proponents of what worked for them and with you're experience it's hard to give advice but for others that are reading I've got to say bail on the agencies. The motivations are just too conflicting and there's too many other way's too meet women who aren't jaded by the agencies.
 

Again good to see you,
Brian

[GoodOlBoy]

Some guys hit the bars (or other places) every weekend (52 times a year).....for much more than than "4 years".......lets see......52 x 4 = 208 visits.......and still no prospects. How about 5, 6, 7, 8.......20+ years of looking.

Interesting mathematics CaptB.

I guess I was looking at this "equation" a little differently.

To go to the FSU more than 20 times in 4 years , you would have to be boarding an airplane every 2 month's and only staying "in country" 1 week...maybe.

Any more time than that say 2 or 3 weeks on the ground and you would almost have to board the next flight for the FSU the minute you landed back here on the ground in the GoodOl' USA.

Now granted AV8or1 has had several board members vouch for his veracity so it is NOT in question here, BUT you would have to admit if ANY Newbie came along with this story there would be A LOT of skepticism from most of our RWD community members. 

BTW.....What is wrong with staying in Russia for an "extended" visit, say 2 or 3 month's, rather than "darting" in and out?

Color me stupid, But it seems to me a person might have a better chance of meeting his "perfect" mate and maybe save "a little" money.



GOB

[UTRO]

Well I don't think that I posted anything about Jerry that was overly offensive and if I did I apologize Jerry..... but and it's a Big But.......
Captain B, I love your math regarding Single Bars, but seriously it's not the best analogy out there. I go to Russia every 3 months for 2 weeks to see my Sveta. On average I would say that each trip costs me between $2000 and $3000. Jerry has made the pilgrimage to the Motherland 20 times in 4 years without finding a Woman. If it costs him as much as it does me.... and I'll bet it has been more because he uses Agencies, Hotels, Restaurants, Internal Flights, etc... he would have paid between $40,000 and $60,000 in the past 4 years! I seriously don't think he would have paid all that to go to Singles Bars back in the USA!??

[kievstar]

Some men do not care about number of trips or money spent.  No need to rush things. What makes you happy is what you should do.

Some guys I have met never plan on getting married as they already have children.  They like the excitement of meeting new women and maybe dating someone a couple of years.  But in reality marriage is not going to happen. I do not think this applies to you.

[Bruce]

   Jerry, excellent trip report as always.  Hang in there and just keep on plugging.  I was a guy who tried many different things and met my wife when my trips to the FSU were in my high teens.   The key is not to give up and to keep on plugging.  Since married I am around 25 separate trips to the FSU.   Like Simoni said earlier, no trip is a waste.   Siberia has beautiful nature to visit and I am glad you saw some of it.   The reality still is, if you want a prettier, younger woman you have to go to Europe.  Tver is a comfortable place with many available good women in shouting distance of Moscow, which will always make it a good, easy, safe, convenient place to visit.  Maybe you want to think of Romania or some other countries to try or just keep on plugging away in the greater Moscow region like Tver.   It is a numbers game.  I know Jerry has very high standards, but he is a super individual who deserves and will get a woman who meets those standards.  He just really needs a bit more luck.   All the best Jerry..................

[Vaughn]

Bruce, it's good to see you post again. I've wondered where you've been.

I will add one thing.  Brutal/brunt/unwavering honesty doesn't work.  Doesn't work with local women and doesn't work with FSUW.  All women (before marriage and especially after marriage) appreciate tact, chivalry and a little charm.  There's MANY situations when you shouldn't blurt out the blatant truth - and one of those situations will be the question about whether you are meeting other women or not. 

Kuna's advice is excellent. While I see the wisdom in numbers, I've met quite a few FSU ladies who would have never
been agreeable to stand in the chorus line. My own wife is one example. I never made a VM trip, but wonder how I
myself would have made my polite excuses and frequent goodbyes to blaze new trails? Tact and charm without
sacrificing honesty are valuable social skills.

Aside from all aforementioned disadvantages of WOVO, I want to mention another: in reading various accounts on
this forum, I really feel I've missed out on seeing many great places in the vast FSU. I always had this urge to visit
places like Izhevsk, Ekaterinburg, Kherson, and as Bruce recommends - Tver. Jerry must be having a ball seeing all
he's seen.   

[ambach123]

I don't think anyone can be happy after making 20 trips and spending at least 75K, not to speak of the time and efforts in this regard. To succeed he will have to trun over a new leaf.

I don't think I could take this sort of torture, and torture it is, mental, physical and financial.

In my limited experience, the protocol in dating AW, does not work with RW.

With AW, you get to know each other, while you may date others, you decide to become intimate when you both are ready.

Not so in FSU.

They want exclusivity from the get go; it is a different mind set, probably because RM don't offer them that.

RW want a lot of attention; I mean a lot, that is from the beginning, just to build the relationship. They want to be physically intimate, not necessarily sex; if you can't give them that, AM has zero chance.

For example they want you to hold their hands, almost always, open doors for them, help them carry their bags, kiss them often, listen attentively when they talk to you; the list is endless. Most AM are not used to giving this type  of attention to a woman.

I believe if you cannot give them such immense attention, there never will be any relationship.

I can see the point of view of the agency, when they suggested that Jerry pick a girl and take her on an exclusive trip; this is the only way he can develop a relationship with a RW.

By the way, from what I can see Latin girls are somewhat different, and the same rules may apply to them as to the AW; the chances of success for AM are also higher.

Jerry is a handsome guy, many AM who come back with a knock out woman are neither handsome nor rich; but they understand that these women want to be treated like princesses; and did I say they want an exclusive relationship?

I believe my search is about to end bearing fruits; after three trips in a matter of about six months; but I don't count my chickens until they are hatched, so I will keep it under wraps for now.

[UTRO]

RW want a lot of attention; I mean a lot, that is from the beginning, just to build the relationship. They want to be physically intimate, not necessarily sex; if you can't give them that, AM has zero chance.

For example they want you to hold their hands, almost always, open doors for them, help them carry their bags, kiss them often, the list is endless. Most AM are not used to giving this type of attention to a woman.

I believe if you cannot give them such immense attention, there never will be any relationship.

This is quite true. Russian Women who seek a Western Man do expect a Gentleman. Not submissiveness... rather open thoughtfulness, politeness and courtesy... because this is what they give to their Man in return. If she doesn't, it's a Red Flag. Western Men who are of this personality type are ahead of the game when persuing a relationship with an FSU Woman.

[Turboguy]

Since I am the one who recommended RP to Jerry I probably should keep my mouth shut but having made more trips than Jerry I will say that usually I did not see it as torture.  They were enjoyable trips that let me see some a very different culture, some amazing things and meet some wonderful people.

The trips can run up rather fast.   My first 4 or 5 were widely spread out and before the internet was available over there and it did make things more difficult.  The next 5 were involved with big agency tours and follow up trips which were a total waste.  The next 4 or 5 were for my first fiancee which ended up being a disaster.  When I started back I pulled out all stops.   I can recall one time when I was there and had a must go to trade show here.  I flew back on Sunday and did my trade show and headed back to the FSU 5 days later.   Making 2-3 month long trips would be great for those who can do it.  I couldn't and my longest trips were around 3 weeks.   I think I was ready to come back by then anyway.  Hitting the 20 trip mark is not that hard and those who find success in a trip or two are lucky. 

[Mark8000]

Hi Jerry,

Wow . . .  different strokes for different folks !

It seems like our first experience in Barnaul was similar, but with very different results.

My wife was once a member of Russian Pearls, and I made my first of many trips to Siberia to see her in December of 2003 (WMVO).  As a "virgin" traveler to Russia, I let Russian Pearls plan my trip once I landed in Moscow.  To be perfectly honest, I was excited that after visiting for three days in Barnaul, a trip to the Altai mountains with just me and the woman I had traveled thousands of miles to see was planned.  It worked out well for me, and the inevitable sex seemed perfectly natural/normal and clearly was not a priority nor focus of the trip.

I also knew from the beginning that if we did not "connect" over those first 3 days of my visit, that we would not take the planned trip to the mountains. Also, my future wife was given a needed break from her 24 hour a day "job" as my personal tourist guide, and throughly enjoyed the opportunity to have a short vacation.  At the time, she was working in a Kiosk, and I remember how happy her daughter was to take her place for those 3 days to allow her mother to take the time to relax and enjoy.

I never used Russian Pearls again, but through the years they have allowed us to use their business address to send packages from the US to Barnaul. Prior to that, we used to have only about a 75% chance of delivery to residential addresses (family members).

If I recall, there is a twice daily flight from Barnaul to Moscow, and a flight to Petersburg 2 or 3 times a week. I think this would be a good indication that the people from Barnaul (the capital of the Altai region) will generally share many of the same values, experiences, etc., as those in these large cities.

You are right about by English speakers. I remember that all conversations and movement in shops, on the sidewalks, in minibuses, etc., would literrally stop every time I would "talk" to my wife in English.   

Excellent trip report and best of luck in your quest to find that special woman.
 

[groovlstk]

I can see the point of view of the agency, when they suggested that Jerry pick a girl and take her on an exclusive trip; this is the only way he can develop a relationship with a RW.

Hogwash. The agency cared about one thing and one thing only: Profiting from what they considered yet another stupid American in a long line of stupid Americans who are so eager to throw money at them that they don't even have to try hard to swindle them. I had similar crap thrown at me on my first trip using an agency - when I didn't propose in less than a week together I was "not serious" and "going about this wrong." The sad fact is plenty of guys trust these scumbags for advice, more than they trust advice here from people who have no economic interest in their trips. If you're dead set on using an agency, do your homework and even if they seem trustworthy, be skeptical always.

I believe my search is about to end bearing fruits; after three trips in a matter of about six months; but I don't count my chickens until they are hatched, so I will keep it under wraps for now.

YAWN. You said this on the eve of your first trip too, going so far as to brag about how beautiful the Mrs. Ambach-to-be was compared to other guys' married wives.

[SMS60]

I have seen in many threads the comment about " sugar coating". The men dont do it here. Well about half of this thread is "sugar coating" and "back slapping" for taking a ski trip. Come on guys...................... thought you were here to help.

First thing is Jerry needs to come back and post more information about his trip so he can get some advice on how to be more successful with the ladies and find what he is looking for.

If he does not want advice, he can post that and just report about the trip without the problems. He can say he is just a tourist looking for a good time. No problem with that.

Or he can admit to being a keyboard jockey. He lost some of his credibility in the details of the trip. So I hesitate to believe what I read on this report.

If this is a true report then Jerrys problems jump out in his posting. Every negative is justified with some excuse. Some of the responses justify the negatives with with excuses. This is typical bahaviour when things dont go right. Instead of trying to fix the problem people justify it with something else........It always contains a BUT............................

I stick by my opinion that if Jerry is real he needs some coaching. He is begging for it in his words.

One more point. I wonder what a lady would think reading the report. It reflects on all of us.

[Misha]

Good to see you and I'm glad to see you're back out there. I agree with you; blind stupid luck is a good portion of the success stories here.

True, but it also requires the following as well:

1. Knowing what you are looking for in a future wife;
2. Knowing where and how to look;
3. Knowing when you found that person you were looking for and knowing that she is truly the one (many guys I would say fail at this step)
4. Knowing how to maintain the relationship once you have found the right person.

[Simoni]

Or he can admit to being a keyboard jockey. He lost some of his credibility in the details of the trip. So I hesitate to believe what I read on this report.

SMS-- you are the one with the credibility issue.  Before you lash out as you have done above, fill in the information about yourself you have "omitted" from your profile:

1)  your gender;
2)  your marital status;
3)  how many trips you have made to the fsu, or if you live there.

You have made a mere 25 posts here.  You are overlooking the testimonies of long term members who know and have met Jerry in real life.

There is room for different perspectives, but you need to provide more information about yourself if you wish to be taken seriously.

[SMS60]

SMS-- you are the one with the credibility issue.  Before you lash out as you have done above, fill in the information about yourself you have "omitted" from your profile:

1)  your gender;
2)  your marital status;
3)  how many trips you have made to the fsu, or if you live there.

You have made a mere 25 posts here.  You are overlooking the testimonies of long term members who know and have met Jerry in real life.

There is room for different perspectives, but you need to provide more information about yourself if you wish to be taken seriously.

I'm not here to stroke my ego. I'm more of a private person. If I need to send my resume to someone let me know. I could put anything in my profile and you would not know if it contained the truth..................................

If I feel I can help with some of the insight I have I will post. You be the judge if it is credible or not. I'm not a know it all. I have opinions.

The reason I post is because of the reputation the WM is getting. When clueless men travel abroad and act like "chumps" it makes it harder for the next man.

This is my opinion