Living Here or Living There

[acrzybear]

 there are positives and negatives living here, but you can say that about everywhere, I HATED San Jose, CA, and was SOOOOO happy to leave. I love dropping out of the "Rat Race" which I think is the best reason to live here in Ukraine.

Thanks everyone for reading my post!

Mark Seidner Sevastopol, Ukraine

Hello Krimster

I'm originally from the bay area and lived in San Jose for 1 1/2 years (off of Fruitdale)

The first thing I could imagine as a big plus is not having to commute on 101, 580, 680 or that great stretch 17 to Santa Cruz 

[andrewfi]

So, in order to help you, we need to know what the tradeoffs are. Mark posted above with a comparison that looks great, but he has missed out medical expenses, cost of a decent car, education, travel, clothes, equipping his home, pension, visiting his family, vacations, taxes on his income. So he, unintentionally, makes a useless comparison. He will find that as he spends longer in his new home, that he will either go native and accept a shorter lifespan with less diversions and a limited horizon, or he will end up spending the money he needs to in order to provide for his family as he should. (I assume that he does not want to condemn his family to the kind of future that their peers will 'enjoy' - I like living where I do, but I live in a somewhat more advanced economy and I have no kids, but if I were in Ukraine, I would be concerned to ensure any kids I had were 'British' as much as Ukrainian and that is far from cheap!)

As he notes he was trying to use a quantitative description, he missed becasuse he missed most of the numbers out, when he describes the qualitative dimension will he compare like for like or something like this: Levis for rynok knockoffs, Sony tv for Turkish junk, no medical care for good care, no pension for decent pension the list is long.

I would not ever suggest that one can not live in the FSU for less than one is currently living in the US, but if one wants to be poor, one can do it more easily in the USA. I may be a nutter, but I can not understand why people voluntarily choose poverty. Is there perhaps some kind of a guilt thing that makes it OK to live poor in a poor country, rather than poor in a rich country?

To get a better picture of the cost of running a family with similar standard of living in different countries, take a look at this: http://www.homefair.com/homefair/servlet/ActionServlet?pid=500&homefair&to=ActionServlet%3Fpid%3D244%26cid%3Dhomefair&pagename=199&internal=T

Mark lived in one of the more expensive parts of the USA, he would save money, it would seem, but not as much as he is suggesting. For those inmore normal situations, the opposite is clearly true. Put the numbers in and see what happens. Does the tool represent reality? Well, it does hold in my experience and many firms use the data to help build their compensation packages.

 

Bruno ~ No I have not read all your posts, not do I care to. You illustrate though that whatever you may have done, you did not learn by it. That is enough for me. You do not read, you do not learn, you do not understand, you are, for me, reminiscent of Peter Sellers in one of his last movies 'Being There', but somewhat lacking the depth of character.

[Admin]

Andrew,

That link is definitley interesting - though I have to say that results are inaccurate (from personal experience).

I used Denver, CO (my home) as the USA location - and then compared it to Kyiv and to Nuernberg, Germany - both locations in which I have some direct experience.

The result said that Kyiv would run 1.192 times the cost of Denver (that is, for every $100 spent in Denver, one should expect to need $119 to have the same purchasing power). But the comparison to Nuernberg was .842. Since I lived in Nuernberg, I have a pretty good idea of price comparisons and there is no way that Nuernberg costs less than Denver. For that matter, I can live VERY comfortably in Kyiv for LESS THAN I spend in Denver, so I challenge the comnparison figures there as well.

I also noted that the ONLY Ukrainian city for comparison purposes was Kyiv.

Anyway - it is definitely a worthwhile link - and it should provide some opportunity for vigorous debate.

Thanks for providing it.

- Dan

[Bruno]

To get a better picture of the cost of running a family with similar standard of living in different countries, take a look at this: http://www.homefair.com/homefair/servlet/ActionServlet?pid=500&homefair&to=ActionServlet%3Fpid%3D244%26cid%3Dhomefair&pagename=199&internal=T

Funny tool, i need around 20% more income for Ukraine and Russia... of course, in Ukraine, you can only choice Kiev for city, the more expensive city... and for Russia, you can only choice Moscow and St-Peterburg, again the more expensive one...

What about Nikolaev or other Ukrainian city... what about Lipetsk or other Russian city... the 3 FSU city have a level of price almost the same that in our western country... if not more expensive that a usual western city...

 

[Leslie]

Hi,

First I do not see any reason to be rude in this discussion.  It is a fallacy to think you can impose your views on someone else...

I know Sevastapol well and Marks expenditure figures appear OK to me.  They are meaningless without the income comparison though.  If you are making $6000 a month in California and $1000 a month in Sevastapol.  I know where I would rather live !

Living in Kiev is becoming as expensive as Moscow and that is EXPENSIVE by European standards.  Prime real estate in Moscow is NYC price now.  To get some idea of Kiev prices browse Aviso.  Plenty of million dollar properties. 

The main problem with living in Ukraine is INCOME. 

If I could generate my current net income based in Ukraine my standard of living would be higher - but I can't.  The Ukraine economy is primative and EXTREMELY corrupt.  My income would drop to a fraction of its current level. Disposable income provides the joy in life and there would be far less of that.

Early in our marriage, when Natasha was home sick we talked about living in Ukraine extensively.  Things have changed now. She will not return to live in Vinnitsa.  "Far too primative and poverty stricken"  The friends I mentioned above have a family income of $400 a month.  Sure you can eat and get drunk on this money but precious little else.  That is a single pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.  My wife has a cupboard full...

Ask Maxx what some FSU women will do just to stay in a richer society!! 

If I have to be poor I want to be poor in UK.  We still have a welfare state here.  Poor in Ukraine is third world poor.

The bottom line in MOB is the woman leaves family, friends and career in FSU on the hope of a better life.  I don't reckon ANY of these women wants to return to living in poverty....

 

 

 

[anono]

i find this thread of extreme interest. sevastopol or the area is my second choice if i decide to live in ukraine. one reason is the climate and so far, i think the roads are better.

i another factor to the equation is i am thinking i will just live in UA for a year or two, maybe more, depending on how things work out. i figure i have another good ten years left before i start getting tired.

i'd rather grow old in the usa.

i spent a summer in the bay area. i'd rather live in sevastopol.

[krimster]

Hello Andrew,
   First, sorry about the formatting of my figures, they were typed in nice and neatly but the server software "munged" them. Well the figures I put down are my monthy recurring average expenditures.  So far during the last year medical expenses for my family maybe has been around 200 USD, none of us were very sick.  Until October, you could walk into a pharmacy here and buy any medication you wanted without a prescription.  Now that has changed, but still not a significant issue.  I kept the scope of my discussion small to focus on just the issue of monthly expenses and didn't get into other points of a balance sheet such as income because my personal situation would be less relevant to the readers here.  To briefly touch on some of the points you raise:

"Mark posted above with a comparison that looks great, but he has missed out medical expenses, cost of a decent car, education, travel, clothes, equipping his home, pension, visiting his family, vacations, taxes on his income."

1. Medical expenses - there were no monthly expenses
2. Cost of a decent car - I did list insurance and "benzine".  If you're referring to capital costs, that's not a monthly expense.
3. My children are young, so education is free
4. Travel - also not a monthly cost.  We do travel a lot by choice.  Those marathon 19 hour flights are a thing of the past, for example this summer we flew from Simferopol to Berlin in just 3 hours.  We travel to a new European city every 6 months, I count this as part of my children's education, and my wife does a lot of shopping.  Being so close to everything in Europe is a huge improvement to a Californian, but less so for someone from the UK.
5. No pension needed.  When we left the US we sold our house and business, put the money, plus our savings into an offshore trust.  It pays us great interest, and legally we owe no taxes to anyone, I can't speak for UK tax laws, but for the US it's legal, and Ukraine will only tax me on income I earn in Ukraine, which is 0.0!  As far as "capital expenses" go, we "built" our apartment 3 years ago for about 100,000 USD, since that time it's market value has elevated to about 250,000 USD.  We spent about 40,000 USD on furnishings (we can throw that in for an extra price if we sell our apartment, even used furniture is valuable here).  For a car, my wife bought a Mitsubishi Colt for 20,000 USD and she bought a garage for 5,000 USD, the resale value on both are very high.  Well, this is my lifestyle, it works for me.  Ukraine is not a permanent destination for us, we intend to stay for another 3-4 years.  I am developing a business here, and my wife is going to medical school (bless her!).  After that we will leave Ukraine, my wife wants to go back to the USA and I'd like to live in Europe

[krimster]

Oh yeah!  Remember the times on 17, usually when it's raining, and there's an accident and traffic is backed up for MILES!  That's one of the things I don't miss, also not scurrying like mad every April 15, As Timothy Leary said, "Tune in, Turn On, and Drop Out".  Part of the attraction of being HERE is not being THERE.

[krimster]

Growing old by the Sea?  I find I'm growing young.  This past summer I learned how to scuba dive at Sevastopol's Scuba Club.  Found some ship wrecks to explore and lots of other things, brought home some scallops which we ate with relish, I never had time to do this kind of thing in the Bay Area, it was always work, work, work.  Next to where I live is the 2,500 yr old Greek ruins of Chersonnes, I take my youngest daughter there to fly a kite, it's a greast open space with thermals.  You don't grow old here

[Bruno]

 I never had time to do this kind of thing in the Bay Area, it was always work, work, work.

I have make similar choice in Belgium... from a work of 12 hours day, 7 day on 7, with a income around 5000 euro.... i have choice one work with 38 hours week, without stress and a income around 1300 euro... One of two year was needed for keep some stability in my new budget... and now, i am able to spare 500 euro each month... but the more important is the stress removed : no more heart attack and my arythmie is dissappear... quality of life don't always mean a lot of money

[krimster]

Hi Bruno,
   Part of the reason our apartment appreciated so quickly, was because it's an extreme case of a "fixer-upper".  What we bought was the bare shell of an apartment, no walls, no plumbing, no electrical, etc, really nothing inside but a couple of large bare concrete rooms, we bought this for 40,000 USD, spent about 60,000 USD fixing it to western standards, when we were done it was probably worth close to 150,000 USD.  This is the most cost-effective way of buying property here, but the most time consuming and difficult, and I realise not for everyone.  What I really like about owning property here is no property tax!  Which reminds me I left taht out of my monthly figures! Oops!  

[krimster]

Addendun to cost of living in Ukraine, please forgive me, but I left out the cost of owning property which in my case included property tax and insurance (we didn't have a mortgage).  We paid a combined monthly cost of 530 USD for this, and 0 in Ukraine, so the updated comparison figure would be

monthly living cost

Ukraine: 670 USD/month
California: 3980 USD/month

[anono]

hi krimster..can you PM me or tell us more about your offshore account that earns such good interest?  thanks

[START2]

I have read and come back to this topic several times. i have had the opportunity to be in Ukr.many times. Last year I lived there for 8 months just taking some time off in my life to break away. Of course it was a fantastic time getting to know my wife better. From the first time I ever visited Ukr., I felt some connection there that I never could understand. Each visit was more exciting and for me and I grew in my love for the counry and the people.  Sure there are inconveniences from time to time but that's usual here to. On many occasions I considered early retirement  and packing my bags to make the move permanent but financially I'm a few years away from that. Yes. I could do it now, but it'll be best in a few years. Especially now that we're doing AOS. At this time I would also be in that live on $3000 per month scenario. I live a simpler life than many of you here would consider, but I I'm not given to the fast life and lots of luxury. I added the numbers and incidentals, and I with my family could live very comfortable on $1000 per month. I could keep an emergency medical ins. policy here for about $560/month in case something serious happens and I'd need to fly home. I have been to a hospital in Ukr. (Chernihiv, Poltava). Not the best facilities but adequate. I had injured a knee(not serious) and my friend escorted me to the doc. The doc actually charged me nothing but was fascinated at how my ACL had been repaired here several years ago. My friend did all the translating. There was no hospital bill, the doc gave free anti-inflamatories, and they did a 2 view x-ray on my knee. This I did pay for. A whopping 5 grivna. About 90 cents then. Other than that, I'm in excellent health which would be a concern if I wasn't. It doesn't bother me to travel by train. In fact, have always met some interesting people on the train. Those 12 hour over-niters do get tiring though,so a car would be needed. No problem, my brother-in-law is an excellent mechanic. I tire of the way the USA going. The old days are long gone and I'd prefer to be in a country thats on the way up(hopefully) than on the way down.

I did do some research on social security that I should also be able to add to a fixed income in the future. Of course that's several years away. I'm told that it's best to keep an address here because SS won't send these payments abroad. Does anyone know if thats true?  A trip home from time to time to visit family would keep everything current I suppose. But whether I get it or not is no concern to me. Who knows, by then, the system may be broke anyway. If I was was to get it then, It'd just be a bonus.

My wife still owns her home there(not a flat) , I own my home here,no mortgage, and have lived debt free for the past 6 years. God, that's such a good feeling. When I buy something, I pay cash. If I don't have the cash, I save till I do. It's true what they say, "the borrower is slave to the lender".

I guess I have to encourage those who choose to break-away to weigh all the pros-cons , have a realistic view on the lifestyle you choose to lead and  follow the dream. My dream is not to live in a retirement community in Fl./Ca/Az. or the USA. , but I will keep the USA as my ace in the whole/plan B.

[Bruno]

[user=297]START2[/user] wrote:

I did do some research on social security that I should also be able to add to a fixed income in the future. Of course that's several years away. I'm told that it's best to keep an address here because SS won't send these payments abroad. Does anyone know if thats true?

I have myself make some research but the result is only valid for European...

In case of retirement, it is possible to receive money abroad but not directly... fast method, keep a account open in your own country ( choice a international bank who have office in your host country ). Slow method is work via the ambassy.

If you receive your retirement money in a other country, you need to present yourself each year to your ambassy for prove that you are always living... other they stop pay your retirement money.

For medical, you can always keep in your home country some insurance... enough cheap in Europa ( myself, i pay 50 euro year, pay back around 80% of expense )... a complement like Eurocross is accepted in Ukrainian hospital ( not yet in Russia )... your home country insurance pay the bill ( around 80 euro year before 65 yo, almost double after )...

Of course all this is true is you keep your nationality...

It all for Europe... USA will certainly not be so simple  since the lack of good state social security...

 

 

[Photo Guy]

Krimster,
Are there any issues about a foreigner owning property in
Crimea/Ukraine?

Also, we've heard a lot about the severe pollution in Ukraine.
Have you encountered that? Can you drink the water? Levels of
radiation? How's the air?  Doug, interested in things related to the Black Sea.

[START2]

Bruno,

A few years ago in the U.S. social security checks were sent directly to your home. Because so many were being stolen out of your home mailbox, they are now directly deposited into a bank account. I guess a good debit card account would be ok, but we all have heard how easy it is in the bigger cities in Ukr/ru, for those account numbers and pins to be hi-jacked when used in the ATM's there. Caution is advised in that situation.

I wonder if it's possible for an american to purchase european health insurance, and then if there was a major need for it, just fly to an EU country?

[dorogoyroberto]

[user=297]START2[/user] wrote:

I'm told that it's best to keep an address here because SS won't send these payments abroad. Does anyone know if thats true?

Yes and no. To quote from http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10137.html#countries ,  "...Social Security restrictions prohibit sending payments to individuals in Cambodia, Vietnam or areas that were in the former Soviet Union (other than Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia). You cannot receive payments while you are in one of these countries, and we cannot send your payments to anyone for you."

Thus, Ukraine is a so-called "barred" country. However, I live in Kiev and am receiving disability benefits here through direct-deposit to my bank in New York. How, if Ukraine is barred? The U.S. Embassy here has made arrangements with the Social Security Administration for Americans who live in Ukraine to receive payments under certain conditions. Note this letter from the American Citizens Services section at the Embassy:

"Dear Mr. Dias,

Thank you for your inquiry.  The social security beneficiaries moving to Ukraine should file the form SSA-21 to Social Security Administration via the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Kiev.  Please note that only U.S. citizens can receive their social security benefits while
residing in Ukraine.

In addition to the Form SSA-21, the Social Security
Administration requires certified copy of two personal identification documents.  To fulfill this requirement you may bring your birth certificate (original), U.S. passport (original) to the American Citizens Services unit of the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, so that
we can make certified copies of the documents for submission to the Social Security Administration.  

Please note that Ukraine is a barred country -- consequently, those beneficiaries whose benefits are direct deposited to their bank accounts in the U.S., must appear personally at the U.S. Embassy in Kiev each month to sign an affidavit of physical presence.

If a beneficiary wishes to receive his/her benefits by checks then the checks will be mailed to the U.S. Embassy in Kiev on condition that the beneficiary will pick up
his/her check each month.    

The American Citizens Services unit of the Consular Section is open to the public from 8:30am to 12:30pm., Monday through Friday except last Friday of each month and during both American/Ukrainian holidays.  We are located at 6 Pymonenko Street in Kiev.

If you require further information or need assistance, please contact us at (38)(044) 490-4422 or acskiev@state.gov

Sincerely,
American Citizens Services
U.S. Embassy Kiev, Ukraine

In accordance with the E.O. 12958 this message is not classified."  
 
I go the first week of every month to file the affidavit, and have received courtesy and cooperation from Embassy personnel. One item this letter does not mention: you need your SS card as well. I have the one I was issued in 1973.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Bruno]

[user=297]START2[/user] wrote:

I guess a good debit card account would be ok, but we all have heard how easy it is in the bigger cities in Ukr/ru, for those account numbers and pins to be hi-jacked when used in the ATM's there. Caution is advised in that situation.

Not obligate to use ATM... when i was in Navy, i was with a account in Citibank Belgium... Citibank is a American group present in several part of the world... by example, you have office in Moscow and St-Peterburg for Russia and office in Kiev for Ukraine... so, i was able to go in a Citibank office in foreign country and ask money from my Belgium account...

I wonder if it's possible for an american to purchase european health insurance, and then if there was a major need for it, just fly to an EU country?

I don't know... certainly not at the price we pay... here, health insurance is mainly pay by our tax... the little amount we pay each year is a complement to the legal basic health insurance... in my case, more easy, i pay nothing and my medical expense are pay back at 100%... advantage because i work for state...

Interesting post Roberto... since you are located in Kiev, no problem for visit the ambassy each month... but for people living in little city without airport, the trip will be long

 

[krimster]

Dear Photo Guy,
   No, there aren't any real issues about foreigners BUYING property here, and none at all if you're married to a Ukrainian and put the property in her name.  There may be issues a few months from now in January when there are rumored new tax laws that may or may not be put into effect, that may or may not tax foreigners at a higher level.  No one knows about the new laws yet, this uncertainty is entirely normal here.  Regarding pollution, oh yes much more here than what I'm used to in the US.  Air pollution comes from burning and not automobiles, open air burning is normal, city incinerates it's waste within city limits, if you live downwind, you have a real problem, litter is everywhere, water seems to be OK, we use a pretty good quality water filter system to be sure.  We haven't had any problems.  The Black Sea water is often contaminated by sewage near Sevastopol, and is sometimes posted.  When we want to go swimming we go far away to a better area!

[RacerX]

When making a comparison of what it might cost the average AM to 'set up shop' in the FSU, it seems that the answer comes down to lifestyle, both before and after.  Indeed, if one were to ask the same question for a person in NYC relocating to Omaha, I suspect the savings/expense numbers would be all over the place.  Just looking at the numbers for what percent a family expends in California (where 40% can go for housing) compared to Boston (where 25% goes to transportation) also shows that there is no good fixed set of numbers to use.

However, just to get a comparison as to what things might cost  here vs. there, I looked up the typical household expenses for a family expending $3000/mo, which would be typical for a slightly less than a middle class lifestyle.  I would venture that all the men reading this board have twice as much $$$ to spend, but equally so, they probably spend it on entertainment or their "toys" - not even mentioning what it cost to find a RW!

Housing            850
Utilities           250
Food             260
Restaurants      160
Clothes            150
Car         300
Gas             100
Car upkeep       160
Healthcare        300
Entertainment      170
Gifts         100
Misc         200
         
TOTAL              3000 (USD)

Based on my experience, not having lived in the FSU, I would, just for fun, propose the following FSU budget in a secondary city (not Moscow/Kiev):

Housing           400
Utilities      100
Food             100
Restaurants       100
Clothes            200
Car         400
Car Upkeep      100
Healthcare         50
Entertainment      100
Gifts           50
Misc                   200

TOTAL         1800

I am assuming that either you rent an apartment, or make the equivalent of a mortgage payment, the same for the car.  

Now, if I were to llve there, I think my budget would look  more like this:

Housing              1000
Utilities      100
Food            200
Restaurants      300
Clothes           300
Car             800
Car Upkeep     200
Healthcare       700
Entertainment     500
Gifts             200
Misc            500

TOTAL        4800

 I would want a luxury apartment or house, a nice German car (BMW/Audi) and would want to travel back to the USA a couple times each year.  I would also find some kind of health insurance policy to cover me in Europe or one in the US.

[andrewfi]

I was not tryiing to be rude upthread, but as I see it the figures provided were not very helpful.

The link I provided was giving figures that reflected the real costs of equivalent lifestyles. I have to say that actually living in two cities that are listed, neither of them North American, that they seem to me to be pretty accurate. They include most of the things that were left out of Krimster's list and are seemingly overooked by almost everyone who says that life in some godforsaken part of the world or other is cheaper than their current slice of heaven.

That said, I live cheaper than I did in my previous home, or rather, I feel like I do, so how can I on the one hand say the figures seem accurate and then on the other say that I spend less money?

The answer is one that goes to the heart of the issue.

I live a different life and I do without things , the costs of which are implicit in the comparisons made in the link I provided, but sure as hell will come into effect at some point in my life. At the moment, I am in good health and have no expected need for health care, other than for minor cuts and colds, so I have no need to budget for healthcare,but what if I suffered with cancer? What then? What about when I get arthritis, or need a heart bypass? At that point, in many parts of the FSU, one simply can not get the same health care as I could have received, essentially for free, in Finland, or absolutely for free in the UK. For those i nthe US, the comparison is vbetween not having and maintaining health insureance and the contingency costs of obtaining it in the US, or paying for private treatment in FInland, the UK, Germany etc.

I have no kids and thus have no education costs to meet. If I did, would I want to raise them to be effective in a modern western setting? Of course, so what does that mean? It means that they will have to study during their senior years at school in a private school and then in a European or US university, both of whch cost a lot of money.

When I grow old, I need to have a pension, of some sort. I need to be paying for that now. Becasue I want to maintain a decent standard of living I need to make western levels of contribution.

If I want to maintain contact with my home country, I need to allow for relatively frequent travel to my home country and as I have no wish to be a pauper in my home country, a decent level of spending money for the purpose of enjoying myself.

Now, I can put off some of these things for some time, and indeed, I have. But most of us living in these 'cheap countries' will have to allow for some, or all of these costs. These are the kinds of costs that the link above includes and of course the calculator assumes a return to the home country.

Of course, when it comes to housing, I could buld my own home, but realistically, I will buy or rent a place. Most people will do the same, they do not have the requisite skills, or free capital to do otherwise.

On the other hand, by not paying for the things that I can avoid right now, I have a lot more disposable income to spend on things that here are very cheap: good food, good drink, entertainment and socialising. It gives the wrong impression though, and will need to change as I grow older, or settle down and make a family.

So, what is the takeaway?

In the short term, one can ignore those items that cost extra money, one can live better, in some ways, than one might imagine, but could one do it indefinately? Nope. Not unless one was willing to compromise on the very things that made one able to make the choice to move in the first place: education, wealth and health.

BTW RacerX, the biggest single item that is out of whack on your budget is the accomodation costs. If youwant to live poor, you might not be far wrong. If you want to live decent then you have not allocated nearly enough money. When yu get a passport and make a journey you wil get some idea. Also, if you were living here, the idea that out of a budget of $2000 you might spend only $100 per month on entertainment? No chance, unless you like watching TV - A LOT - IN RUSSIAN!

[RacerX]

Andrewfin ~ just to clarify, I am married to a RW and have "visited" the FSU about a dozen times - so I know what things cost as a tourist and I know what my wife paid for things last year.

The "entertainment" portion of my FSU budget encompasses attending the ballet/opera (passing as a Russian), going to the cinema, museums, picnics, but would not include fancy nightclubs, casinos, or dancing/drinks at a Western style hotel.  My wife tells me she did more with even less.

For accommodations, I calculated the expense of buying an apartment for 75.000 USD (minus a down payment), or for renting a 3 room one in the smaller cities or in distant suburbs.  For the major cities, or an upscale lifestyle, I agree one needs to double or triple the number (see '"my" projected budget).

[Bruno]

Also, if you were living here, the idea that out of a budget of $2000 you might spend only $100 per month on entertainment? No chance, unless you like watching TV - A LOT - IN RUSSIAN!

Over TV, some year ago, i have buy in Liptesk for the father of my ex-wife a satellite parabole with double head, digital receptor... around 3000 free to air channel... only for 150$

Entertainment ? Swinming pool almost free; museum, cinema, opera and circus with very low price; biblioteek for free; cafe and restaurant ( local one, not these for tourist ) are cheap too...

Internet is very expensive and poor connection... luxe sport are more expensive in FSU that in Western country : a example, flying with helicopter, in 2000, it was 350$ by hour in russia, in little city...

[andrewfi]

RacerX, I guess that most of us here go to the movies, the theatre, concerts etc as much as we did in the US, or our home country. Changing country does not a ballet buff build!

If you want to go bowling, swimming, go to a health club then you will spend more than the US, for anything like equivalent facilities and as you know, from your previous visits, bowling is something of an 'elitny' pastime.

I noted your requirements, but you were talking about a budget of $1.8K, your figures are too low and of course a mortgage is still a new proposition and unavailable to many/most living in the various countries of the FSU, as is car finance. Hence the need to allow for these items as cash purchases, rather than cash flow items.

Of course you also missed out the items I noted, as do most when they first play these mind games, and still seem to manage when they actually do live here!

It does come down to whether you want to live cheap or live well. Some like Bruno would do whatever they could to spend as little as possible and thus, by dint of giving up the things that enabled them to have the choice, they can live to a lower standard of living thanthey did in their home country. An equivalent standard of living will cost more than it did in their home country, as it does in almost every country of the world when ALL costs are figured. The third group, and they are, I think, rare, looks at the whole cost, realises that the costs are higher, but that once that threshold has been passed, then the cost benefit ratio of living standards is vastly in favour of moving here.

That threshold is NOT at the $3k level! In Estonia, or more particularly in Tallinn, that threshold figure might come it at around the 5000 Euro/$6000 level. I would expect that figure to be too low in Moscow or Saint Petersburg and way too low in a smaller city. The reason being that health, travel, transport and entertainment become more expensive in the smaller places and decent accommodation becomes rarer. The cheap stuff like food and cheap clothing, or alcohol are only a relatively small part of the budget of middle class, or wealthy people and so have much less impact on the budget. Above this threshold level, where one would have a nice home, good clothes, cars, etc etc one could easily use the surplus for the stuff like the kid's education, investment into further wealth generation, good foreign holidays etc.