Living Here or Living There

[Aventurero]

I'm an early retiree.. (Retired at age 52 and I am currently 57).. I have met, and am considering marrying an FSU RW. I have lived there, off and on, for the past 2 years and find that life there is not much different than living in Mexico. There are the regular inconveniences, like electricity going out for hours at a time, or the giant pot holes, unlit streets, etc., but aside from that one could make a 'home' there.

I have a fixed income of $2800/mo from my accounts, so that kinda limits my lifestyle here in the USA, but that amount in the FSU would allow a person to live very comfortably.

My question is this: Are there any people who actually have opted to live there, and if so, what are some of the obstacles they have encountered. Basically, pros and cons to living in the FSU.

Thanks

[Bruno]

My question is this: Are there any people who actually have opted to live there, and if so, what are some of the obstacles they have encountered. Basically, pros and cons to living in the FSU.

Kevin, a member from these forum is married to a ukrainian woman and living in Kherson... he is owner of marriage agency...

Richard is married to a russian woman and living in Tver... he have just start a marriage agency...

I think that these two member from RWD can inform you about the life in Ukraine and Russia...

 

[andrewfi]

If you are thinking about retiring 'comfortably' in the FSU on $2800 per month the fastest thing you will find is that poverty is relative.

On that kind of money you will be among the better off people in most communities and countries, but it is not a huge amount of money. Consider that as you age you will need medical care and support, this will cost less than the US, but it will still cost. You will, presumably, buy somewhere to live, that will take a large chunk of any savings/mortgage equity and of course there is the upkeep.

If you want to live as a middle class local person, similar standard of living and similar restrictions upon your lifestyle then you may be OK, for a while, but if you want to emulate your lifestyle in the US, then you do not have enough money to last you (unless your pension is index linked to the Rouble and Russian inflation - rather unlikely) You will actualy need to be saving every month for the future expenses as costs rise, the dollar (probably) falls and Russia undergoes expansionary inflation. So, IMHO, if you think you have $2800 per month, ask yourself whether you can live on $1800 and save the rest for the future, for medical care, flights back home, to buy the accessories of life (car, tv, satellite dish etc etc etc) and later to pay for in-home care as you become incapacitated.

Of course you need to remember that in most things you do, you will be paying top dollar, even with an attentive wife, you will pay 'foreigner tax' on most things.

I live in Estonia, FSU Lite, I would not envisage settling here at your age with so little money available to me. Living here is very different to what are effectively extended holidays. At your age you can only hope to buy a property for cash and decent rental accomodation is, in all countries of the FSU, disproportionately expensive as it is comparitively rare. To gove an example, here in Tallinn, one pays for a modernised, but not lavish 3 room apartment about $500 per month (This would be much smnaller than you were used to in the US!). In the suburbs, the same size place, in less good condition would cost perhaps $400 and a dump of the same size, about $300. As you age, you will come to relish living in a city centre (really-you will!) but you will not have enough money to pay the rent. A nice new, US/European standard place with A/C, good quality kitchen, sauna, small spa bath and a balcony will run you at perhaps $1500 per month.

What I am writing applies pretty much to all the FSU as they share remarkable similarities in infrastructure. Do not give up what you have. If you settle here, you might find that some things are cheaper, but the overall cost will be higher than in the US, to maintain a similar standard of living.

Also, of course, you need to remember that the women you write to usually have a differnt vision of their future than living in the FSU - especially if it means that their life is going to be substantially the same, ie not very well off, living in a small apartment, living like a local.

[Rvrwind]

Part of what Andrew says, I would agree with, but parts, as usual I cannot. Sorry Buddy but me & you, we have a totally different opinion of what is considered a reasonable lifestyle. I've seen your place & I agree that it is very nice & because of the location, you are paying top $.

I on the other hand, do live in the suburbs & very seldom have need to travel to the center of the city other than to pick up my paycheck. Everything we need or want is within a three block radius of our apartment. Supermarkets (3), Electronics stores (2), Clothing Stores, Shoes Stores, Video Stores, Disco's (2), & a Rynook (outdoor Market kitty corner to our building, Resturants plus much more.

No, we are not in the newest building in the city nor is it the oldest. We have a very large enclosed balcony & a separate bedroom, large living room & kitchen, bathroom & toilet. We are very comfortable although there are times I would wish for just a little more floorspace but nothing that is going to kill me. We are on the eigth floor & have an elevator so this old fart doesn't have to climb the stairs, although there has been the odd occasion, IIRC 3 times this year that the power was out & I was forced to climb the eight flights. We pay a mere 6000 rouble a month & that includes all utilities exept electric which runs 150-250 rouble a month depending on what I am up too. Electric tools, etc. Plus we have a hot water heater & electric washer that were included with the apartment.

The same size flat in the centre is about double the price with the same ameneties. But like I said, being in the centre is not to my liking & our nieghborhood has everything we need or want. On top of that the stores in our nieghborhood are a little cheaper than those in the center, so why travel to the center to pay more for what you can get here for less.

Personally I could live very well on $2800.00 per month. I live better than a lot of people here now on half that so to double it would increase my standard of living considerably. In the smaller cities it is even cheaper to live. The farther you are from the major centres, the better the prices.

Andrew is spot on about the health issue however & being as I am still recovering from a heart attack I can attest that it is not cheap & not exactly the most pleasant experience to spend time in a Russian Hospital. However it is only cheaper in the west if you have full medical coverage which is very rare these days. If you have to pay for services there you will find paying here is much cheaper. I don't know about the US but in Canada there ain't so much free medical anymore, you pay for a lot of services. However here as anywhere the more you pay the better the conditions & care. Russia, I have found lives by the Gloden Rule "MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS!"

As for your lady liking or not liking it, well that too is relative. Is she in love with you, or your wallet? My wife is not living a whole lot different than she was before we met. Yes there are less bodies in the same sized apartment (and we have a hot water heater, in my opinion a must & the only luxury I will not live without) but she doesn't have tons of money to spend & although there are times we have to save up for a month or two to buy a bigger item, she never regrets her decision. She loves me for me, not for what I can or cannot provide & not for where or where we don't live.

As for a car. Who in hell wants one. 10 minutes after you buy it some stupid ass crazy Russian idiot will dent it for you anyway. Until they start enforcing the rules of the road & teaching these mental midgets to have a little respect, I wouldn't even want a damn car! Public transportation is cheaper & although a little slower, sometimes, not always safer but they have had more practice dodging idiots. There is nothing in my life that I am in that big of a hurry to get to.

Thats my take on it. You gotta want it a lot to make it work. I've been here two plus years now, my friend Allistair has been here for four years & my buddy Phil has been here, I think four years now, as well. We love this country as if it was our own & have no intention of ever going home except maybe for a short visit. Speaking for myself, if I can achieve it, I will never live in Canada again.

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[andrewfi]

RVR ~ There are serious differences between your situation and the OP. You can live on beans and water, I do not and I have a sneaky feeling that he does not either. If you want to live as a poor person, then of course one can, but that is not what most people really want to do when they retire.

You are in your situation because circumstances rendered your position in Canada untenable and I have a funny feeling that you are better off where you are than you would be if you stayed. Would you, in all honesty, have done what you did if circumstances in Canada were not as they were?

So, as a bright woman, in a country much poorer than your current home, once told me, it is possible to live like a local on $1500 per month, but all the things that make it possible to live as we want to cost at least as much as they do in Europe (in my case) She was right. As I wrote, this guy is going to need to make savings every month, if he plans to live in the FSU full-time, his real income will be about $1500 per month and that is not so funny. I KNOW that one can live on much less, but it is not funny, as you well know!

In practical terms, the cost of buying, furnishing and equipping a home to a standard equivalent to what one would enjoy in Europe, or the US will be far from cheap and, of course, apart from the expense, there is almost nothing bought in the US as an appliance, or for entertainemnet that is worth taking with one... They don't work!

If one takes the simple minded approach to a response to a question like this then one would say that this amount of income would not be an issue, but the real answer that lack of money will become the biggest issue. With money there is essentially no problem that can not be solved, without it, one can die...

So, [user=499]Aventurero[/user], IMHO, living in the FSU presents few problems as long as one has adequate necessary resources to deal with issues that arise.

I guess as a retiree, then the other big issue will be boredom. Most towns and cities do not offer much in the way of entertainment for a language challenged oldster and so one s likley to gravitate towards places where there is stuff going on in a language one can share, that means the larger cities and higher costs, including the costs of the activities. If you do bowling, that is not a problem, excpet that here it is an 'elitny' activity and not at all cheap. TV and cinema is in Russian, or some other unknown language, most DVDs do not feature English. Unless you are in a town/city centre a car is pretty much an essential, not becasue public transport is bad, it is not, but because, well, you are used to a car and the lack casues a psychological distance that is not healthy, one can easily become a suburban strandee.

It might be worthwhile to check some of the internet sites that offer comparitive cost of living tables, they are scary! When planning it is necessary to look at the invisible costs as well as the visible and obvious ones. It is likely that given Richard's current situation, he is busily ignoring the invisible stuff becasue he has no choice. For anyone making a conscious choice, they should remember those invisble, but not insignificant costs...

REMEMBER THIS: Just because you have income that is several times the average wage in a poor country does not make you a wealthy man! It just means that you are less poor than they are!

[Aventurero]

REMEMBER THIS: Just because you have income that is several times the average wage in a poor country does not make you a wealthy man! It just means that you are less poor than they are!

As with beauty, wealth is in the mind of the beholder. That is one of the reasons so many of the ladies in the FSU believe that Westerners are "loaded".

Having lived in Germany for 18 years, I know the 'potential' of any country or culture. I first went to Germany in the mid 60's. As a young man, I didn't stop to realize that the war had ended just a few years prior to my arrival. In those days, as a young private in the US military, I was amazed how much money I had at my disposal. My father-in-law was rather indignant at the fact that he had a relatively good position with 3M and did not earn as much as I did. On top of that, he had a family to take care of. Nevertheless, Germany continued to progress to the economic level they now enjoy. That level, by the way, is not one which many Americans or Canadians can afford. With the cost of housing, medical insurance, taxes, food, gasoline, and automobiles being what they are, even Germans are complaining!!

That experience has not escaped my cognitive faculties. I predict that Eastern Europe will soon arrive at those levels. Nevertheless, there is still time for people like myself to capitalize on the opportunity that presents itself.

The secret to economic improvement for any people is to live below their means. This lesson is yet to be learned by Americans who desire to live the future in the present, that is, instead of saving for the things they want, they live on future earnings to the point that when the future arrives there are no earnings to pay for the necessities of the present.

Trust me, there is no "Free Lunch" anywhere. Mexico is a classic example. Homes in Mexico are as expensive as they are in the USA, particularly in those areas where expats have decided to retire to.

Central Asia for example has two pricing schemes... one for the locals and one for 'foreigners', and they exercise these without reservation. Rentals catering to 'foreigners' automatically increase as soon as the potential tenant opens his/her mouth.

Still, I believe that if one is capable of being 'content' in the surroundings in which they choose to live, one can potentially save a good amount of money over a ten year period.

Not being able to go to the local WalMart Superstore at any time of the day or night, is one of the things that they will just have to get accustomed to.

[dorogoyroberto]

Mr. Aventurero,

Lilya and I are here full-time. We are not rich, but live comfortably within our means.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

P.S. to Bruno: Kevin Hayes is in Kherson, Ukraine a great deal, but he does not live here full-time, to my knowledge...

[andrewfi]

As you will note, I suggested that you would live and OK, but I think you will not be saving anything, other than for your normal needs. There ain't enough there for you to be starting  any kind of business, other than one based upon the least profitable basis - sweat equity. Not enough to buy a house either. You probably will not be taking part in any economic miracles... Perhaps if you could get your income annually rather than monthly that would help you.

When you arrive, and for a few months, you will surely feel well off. But then you will find the difference. As I noted upthread, take a look at some of the sites that publish comapritive costs of living for expats in different cities in the FSU, some items may not apply, but see the ones that do and see just how it will impact upon your monthly income and just what the residue will be.

What you will have will be in the top few percent in local terms, but you will surely find that your position is much closer to the middle class than it is toward the upper classes in income terms. You will almost certainly feel that in material and comfort terms that you are significantly less well off than you were in the US and that you can not afford to obtain that standard of living.

 

[Bruno]

Andrewfin, you live in the main city of Estonia... if a American will life in a main city of Russia ( Moscow or St-Petersburg ), the money needed for this is not very different that here...

But in FSU, you have very big difference of price between big city and little city... by example, i earn not enough for life very confortable in Odessa but if i choose a city like Nikolaev, with 500 euro month, i can make it without problem... of course, i go to Ukrainian restaurant, ukrainian cafe, ukrainian market... and not in the place where go tourist and where the price are 300 or 400 % more high...

And finally, if you have not enough with 2800$ month in FSU, what it will be if you stay with the same amount in USA... Your car will be your home ?

Now about Kevin, i know that he don't life full time... if i good remember, his child is birth in USA... but since he stay a lot in Ukraine, he can be a source of information...

[Farrel]

Very informative discussion, guys!! Keep up the good stuff!! I have only two things to add:

1. I've known a guy who's originally from Scottland, he married a Russian woman, and lived with her in Russia for almost 2 years as his job required so. They had their first child in Russia and lived in the apartment she owned.
I only keep ocasional contact with them, but to the best of my knowledge they live in Scotland now - moved when his job called him there - they had their second son. His wife has adobted to the culture quite well now, though it was hard for her at the beginning. As he told me he doesn't really care where they live, as long as his job allows him to provide for his family.

2. Another couple I know for a while - she's from the Ural region, and he's Canadian. After living here and there, they decided to stay permanently in St.Pete's (Russia). They have 3 kids, one of which (older daughter) is from the wife's first marriage.

That's all I wanted to say! And yeah, those are the people I know personally and heard their stories told by them, or seen the relationship develop in front of my own eyes...

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ you probably have not realised, but for a foreigner to live in the FSU is not cheap. please reread the posts above for some insight. If a person want to live 'like a local' it is, even then, more expensive than for a local, simply because we do not know the language, the best ways to do things or the most economical means of achieving goals, let alone the normal 'foreigner taxes' that apply to dumb furriners. I have done this before, I speak from experience.

Probably the single most important question is not which city, or even country, but what expectations does the person have. If a person has broadly similar expectations of their life in the FSU as the things they take for granted in wealthier countries then I am correct. If one wants to live like a poor local, complete with diminished life span then it can be done very cheaply.

Bruno ~ You are probably unaware, because of how you have travelled and lived and because your trips were primarily holidays, but good quality accomodation is not cheap in the more distant locations. Good quality accomodation is at a premium, so again, if you wanna live poor, it is cheap. If you want a 'western standard' apartment then it is much less cheap, if available at all.

The mistakes and assumptions that you make are not unreasonable, but they are incorrect. Just ask a person who has done it, don't just take my word for it (or not!).

Don't forget I am responding to the original post. I do not say that one can not live on $2800, nor even that in relative terms one will not live well, but I am highlighting the issues that arise from living on a fixed income of that size. Whilst we know that poverty is relative; when we make a comparison from one place to another, then we use absolute terms. When we live in a poor country for a long while, we do not feel richer because we have meat with each meal, but,  rather, poor because we do not have air conditioning, or a decent car that we used to have, or because we have to factor in over night hotel stays when we go to the capital, or regional capital for our healthcare, or even becasue going to see our kids or grandkids consumes a month's income and is thus too expensive...

[jb]

I have avoided this thread for a couple of reasons.

However I feel I must chime in and agree with Andrew, he's quite right.  It isn't that much cheaper to live in the FSU than at home.  For example, I could move to Moscow where we own a nice four/five room flat, (depending on how you count) and live basically rent free, but I'd hate it in short order.  I'd be giving up a 2,000 sq ft house with a secure place to park our 2 cars, a fenced yard to walk the dogs, not to mention our pretty good livelyhood.  Moving into a flat with my mother-in-law even for zero money would be a last resort.  While I speak pretty good Russian, I could never pass for a native, the moment I opened my mouth the price of everything would go up.

I love to visit, but I couldn't live there.

[Bruno]

While I speak pretty good Russian, I could never pass for a native, the moment I opened my mouth the price of everything would go up.

What say JB and Andrewfin is true but not fully...

Of course, price can raise when people see that you don't speak language... but until now, i have not yet see these problem for myself... wrong, almost not see this... for train ticket, when i was in Moscow, it was needed to go to a special office... price around 10 time more expensive... the second time, i was with a false intern russian passport and it was my lady who speak

On the market and supermarkt, all price are noted on product... if someone try to ask more, i make some scandal and the price become fast normal... for taxi, i negociate the price before... too high, next one...

And the tax on foreign people... great but in case i am married with a russian woman, after some time, i can ask to be naturalised russian...

Guys, several of you have a enough high level of life in own country... i am not from your level... and a simple life in russia will not be a problem in my case... i don't need airco, swimming pool, sauna,... a usual block appartment or little house outside the city is good... i have use bike, motorcycle, bus all my life... why a car will be needed in Russia...

All i need, you can find it without problem in Russia...

Of course, each case is other... for people living in high standing in own country, the same standing can be more expensive in Russia... Russia is the country of extreme... Rich are very rich and poor very poor... from luxe to nothing... for the middle citizen who can good work with his hand, russia is not a problem...

Again, all is relatif

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ See, you just did it...

Most people do not shop in supermarkets. They shop in the market (rynok) and they pay a lot less. You probably did not notice, also, of course we tend to want to buy stuff with which we are familiar, this costs extra money, when we do not read too well, we do not know which is good value and which is cheap rubbish, all these things cost money and continue to do so. It comes down to, as I repeatedly say, what you want.

I have lived in Estonia full time for a couple of years, I have lived in Russia and also Finland. I know from my Finnish experience that as a foreigner, I was not getting my expenses down for more than a year. Here, I do not even bother to try. I choose to maintain a standard of living, not decrease it. Of course, you and others may choose differently. I can not understand why one would want to do so, I can understand that some have to do so!

It is easy to think 'cheap country, cheap living' and for holidays it may be, but for life it is not.

[RacerX]

Well, I think as others have pointed out, another great myth (joining others   from the MOB industry) that two can live as cheaply as one in the good ol' FSU is not generally true.  

The root reason is because the FSU must, like any nation, compete  on a world-wise basis for goods.  For example, my wife tells me that Italian shoes and name-brand clothing actually cost her more in Russia than here.  She was recently amazed that we could buy low-end microwaves and DVD players for as little as 50 US dollars, and that nearly all electronic goods cost far less here.  

The proportion of our total monthly budget that food and housing makes up often declines as we mature, which unfortunately are only real items that are often less expensive in the FSU.   Personal services cost less, but again, this may not be a big contributor to one's monthly expenses.

However, this all being said, I am still pondering the idea of buying a small estate in the outskirts of a FSU city some day and staffing it with a dirt-cheap gardner, maid, and/or nanny - something that is actually possible to do on an upper-end USA salary.

[Bruno]

Most people do not shop in supermarkets. They shop in the market (rynok) and they pay a lot less. You probably did not notice, also, of course we tend to want to buy stuff with which we are familiar, this costs extra money...

Foreign people need to integrate in our country... if we choose to life a other country, we need to integrate...

When i stay in FSU, i go to market, very early morning... and i buy milk, vegetable, eggs,... not to the shop but to the old babuska... fresh from the farm but very little quantity... for this, you need stand up early and be at the market around 7h00 in the morning... only for real cafe, i go to supermarket... the only thing that you need take care in local market is the limit datum of product :?

If you choice to life in Russia, try to life like Russian people and not like Western man... this is called integration... woman are able to quit FSU for life in Western country... why man will not be able to make the reverse... of course, it  is not easy, butit is possible... never forget that in the begin, you will be alone... it take time to make good friend in Russia, but after, friendship is for the life... the more difficult problem will be the isolation... if by nature you are not  very social, forget the idea to go life in a other country...

 

[Leslie]

Hi,

We have discussed this topic before.  If you are serious about living in FSU then the first question you need to answer is WHERE?

Moscow, St Pete and Kiev are now expensive places to live.  5 years ago $100K would have bought a nice flat on Kreshatyk.  Think over $500K now!  A decent 100 sq m flat in kiev where a forigner could live will set you back $150K minimum.  Andrew is correct on rents.  Renting such a flat would cost a minimum of $1,500 a month.

Of course if you are prepared to live in rural western Ukraine prices are cheaper.  One of my wifes friends has recently bought 3 rooms in a shared village house for $7000.  I could spend a weekend in summer there but a whole winter.  NO CHANCE.

Second thing you need to realize is the cost of living.  The basics of life are cheap.  Food, alcohol, local entertainment etc.  Electronics and cars cost MORE than in Europe.  A new BMW is TWICE as expensive in Ukraine than in Germany.  You want to drive a Lada LOL!!  Same is true for a plasma TV.

The third thing is how do you make money??  If you live in Ukraine full time your income is subject to Ukraine taxes.  The government is corrupt but as a foreigner this won't work in your favor.  The business community is even worse.....

Maintaining your Western Lifestyle in FSU will in reality cost you MORE money than it does at home.  Of course if you are prepared to live as a local then your money will go further.  If you are living in a village in winter then it is likely impossible to spend $1000 a month.  There is NOWHERE to spend your money !!

 

 

 

 

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ It was you who said you went shopping at the supermarket... If you have a story to tell, be consistent.

But, that said, most people who choodse to live in another country usually want to emulate their former life in many respects, most Americans would find shopping for food in a rynok distasteful as well as very hard.

I think if you tried following the bucolic lifestyle that you now say you did on previous visits, especially if you were working, you would not be able to sustain your 'localised' habits.

[Bruno]

500 euro for my last visit in Ukraine : food, cinema, cafe, appartment, gift, bus, taxi, ... all in for almost one month... since i work for administration, i am always pay ( working, illness, holiday... ), and receive netto between 1200 and 1300 euro month ( taxe, social security, pension, almost all cost already removed ). At 55 yo, i go begin receive my retirement money from army, something  around 1000 euro month... i am able to life simple, FSU is not a problem for me... it is a problem for people with a high lifestyle... remember that a swimming pool home don't make the hapiness...

Living Here or Living There !!!! not really  a good question... can luck for some, can be the hell for other... need to see how you life now and what are your expectation... if you will be rich or have other goal in your life that money... FSU people can be happy in FSU, why not other... and please, don't say that FSU people are not happy... if it was true, it is not 100.000 FSU women that you can be able to find on internet but million... FSU is changing and in the good way... not for all but nothing is perfect... choose to life in FSU if you like the country... other, stay home.

 

[andrewfi]

You really do not understand do you? OK, I assume that other posters do and so I will not reply further to you. You contradict yourself and attempt to backfill, we can see...:dude:

You do not live in another country from that in which you were born, raised and worked, you have no real-life input here, you can afford cheap holidays. That is you. it is not what the original poster was asking about.

Whilst I do not normally suggest that it is not possible to comment upon those things about which we have no experience, I think in your case it is appropriate. You do not understand the issues, you have not done the things, your points are inconsistent and you put nothing new upon the table. But, your posts are useful to a degree, they illustrate the nieve preconceptions that many carry with them. I know that in times past I had some similar ideas to you. Knowledge and experience did, in the end, provide the insight that allows for a relatively comfortable life in a new country. Hopefully the original poster will learn something from this and other threads that will help him - probably, I hope reconsider his initial plans. I know that this thread has caused at least one other poster to reconsider what he is doing...

[jb]

Andrew said:

You really do not understand, do you?

No, my old friend, it is you who does not understand.  You are dealing with Bruno.  You could make a simple statement like: "Most fire trucks are painted red", and Bruno would counter with: "Not true, I once saw one painted green", therefore all that you have struggled to explain is false".

You can't possible win with Bruno, he knows all.

[Admin]

No, my old friend, it is you who does not understand.  You are dealing with Bruno.  You could make a simple statement like: "Most fire trucks are painted red", and Bruno would counter with: "Not true, I once saw one painted green", therefore all that you have struggled to explain is false".

You can't possible win with Bruno, he knows all.

I find Bruno's posts to be quite informative and often very helpful. I do not always agree with them - but I find I don't agree all the time with anyone.

The key is to take the parts that are worthwhile FOR YOU, and discard the rest.

Andrew, I *have* lived in other countries than my birthplace, and you are correct that one does not fully appreciate the differences until they have lived in that country for some time.

I know expats currently living in Ukraine - some in Kyiv and some in Crimea. While I have experienced the culture shock of living in Germany and in Taiwan and spent approximately a quarter of my time from 1998 through 2002 in Ukraine, I still expect that actually living there would reveal a host of issues that I do not recognize at the present.

I've invited an expat currently living in Crimea to join us. If he agrees, perhaps he will add his perspective and opinions.

- Dan

[Bruno]

When somebody asks you how to identify a fire truck, I'm guessing that one of the first things that you come up with is "red color"... So the point being, color can be an important tool for identifying things, but it's not diagnostic.  Check the other properties, they have to be right.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rmr/firetruck.html :P

After some search, i have find a country where the fire truck was not all in the red gamma ( from red to orange )... and these country is USA... JB have right, you have green fire truck, see the picture

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Port_Townsend_Fire.JPG/800px-Port_Townsend_Fire.JPG
:P:P

[Aventurero]

OK... I admit it, I am the original poster.

Now to clarify some points.

I have lived in the US, Germany, Mexico, and Central Asia. I have also visited a host of other countries. Visiting is not the same as residing.

The PRIMARY issues to taking up residence in a foreign country are:

a.  Communication Skills (speaking the language, understanding nuances of the language, formal language usage and informal daily interactions)

b.  Cultural and Social Differences.

c.  Traditions.

d.  Lifestyles.

If a person cannot speak the language, he/she is like a fish out of water. There is little that can be done about this issue except to learn the language. The common joke goes...

Question:  What do you call a person who can speak 3 languages?
Answer:  Tri-Lingual.

Question:  What do you call a person who can speak 2 languages?
Answer:  Bi-Lingual.

Question:  What do you call a person who can speak just one language?
Answer:  An American.

When I was in Germany, an American missionary came there to take up residence. He had studied German in high school and in college. A total of 6 years. Lo and behold, when he opened his mouth it was evident that his ability to "communicate" was limited. Although he understood the grammatic, he was not well versed in the daily usage of the language. AND, he certainly was not familiar with the various dialects. He made a fool of himself on a number of occasions and was just speechless in others. He has been there since 1973 and now is able to communicate very well.

Culture and Social differences. Unless one is willing to be flexible in their  views, going to a foreign country with a load of cultural and social baggage will more than likely tend to be a burden than a help. One cannot go to the FSU and be a constant pain in the posterior by constant complaining about how "in my country we do things like ....."[/u] and fill in the blank. One is no longer in one's own country so just give it up.

Traditions:  Don't go to Mexico and ridicule El Dia De Los Muertos (The Day of the Dead).. Don't go to Kherson and expect to celebrate the 4th of July. Traditions are traditions, celebrations are celebrations... They are not universal, so if you expect to LIVE[/u] in another country be ready to take on new traditions.

Lifestyles:  Going to the FSU, for many is like taking a huge step back in time. Apartment living, utilities and lack thereof, streets, public toilets, foods (restaurant, supermarket, and market), transportation, communications (internet, telephone and television), work ethic, time schedules, etc. are all going to be different than what you have been accustomed to. Don't go to Mexico and expect to be able to get anything accomplished between 2pm and 4pm. Don't go to Germany and expect to go shopping on Sundays.

Right now, the least expensive city in the world (according to some statistics) is Asuncion, Paraguay. There are tradeoffs for making a life in any "cheap" country. As the saying goes, You get what you pay for![/u]

I understand this, and I also understand that there are huge gaps in lifestyles all over the world. Yet, I believe that one can live in the FSU for substancially less than the USA, Switzerland, Germany, UK, Australia, France, Italy, Spain, and others. BUT... one has to UNDERSTAND that there will be tradeoffs.

Best Regards

[krimster]

Hi Dan,
   Thank you for inviting me.  For those who don't know me, I am an American living in Sevastopol, Ukraine.  I'm 49 years old, (married with children, ahh how I miss the old sitcom), and run a software development business here.  I've lived here for over a year, and have acquired, sometimes painfully, considerable detailed information regarding living here.  I could provide a HUGE amount of detail, which would take weeks to write, instead I will start out writing about the subject of comparing the cost of living between my previous home in San Jose, CA and Sevastopol, Ukraine.  Remember this is PURELY a "Quantitative" discussion, I won't be discussing "Quality", that is a whole separate discussion.  So let's begin

                   Basic Monthly Expense

                        Ukraine               California

Utilities               50 USD                280 USD
Car Insurance           70  USD (complete)    70 USD (not)
Health Insurance         0                    800 USD
Food                   500 USD               1200 USD
Child Care              10 USD               1000 USD
Gas for Car             40 USD                100 USD

Total                  670/month             3450/month

You can see a huge difference!  For comparison purposes, our home in San Jose was an 1,800 sq/ft house, nothing fancy, in Sevastopol we have a 2100 sq ft apartment (huge!) by the Black Sea, we had no mortgage on either one.  In neither location did we attempt to economize with food or utilities, our life-style is roughly the same in each location, in terms of the amount of food and energy we consume.  There's no health insurance for us to buy here, even if it was available for sale, almost no one would accept it.  All medical is "out-of-pocket", I am very skeptical of the quality of medical care here, the hospitals are appalling!  If possible, I'd hop on a plane back to the US for something major if I had that option.  For minor things, it's important through your "social network" to have a contact with a good doctor(s).  They will make housecalls for 10 USD.  When my daughter had a serious cold (I always panic!) 4 hours after we called her pediatrician she was at our door, it would take that long to navigate the voice mail on Kaiser to make an appointment.  Well, it's a start.  I hope you enjoy this little bit of information and find it useful.  Here in Sevastopol we have a small group of Yanks who made the decision to come here and live, there are positives and negatives living here, but you can say that about everywhere, I HATED San Jose, CA, and was SOOOOO happy to leave.  I love dropping out of the "Rat Race" which I think is the best reason to live here in Ukraine.

Thanks everyone for reading my post!

Mark Seidner  Sevastopol, Ukraine