There are no dishonest agencies!!!

[BC]

I don't know if it makes a difference to some of you whether the percentage of guys who write but never visit is 99, 75, or 50 - the moral relativists among us will find ways to excuse any plainly unethical behavior among Russians or point to some vaguely approximate equivalent in Westerners to deflect criticism.

I sorta like the way the Supreme Court looks at things.. Parties cannot simply say 'it could happen' but instead must be able to show actual harm done before they will accept a case for adjudication.

To scream 'unethical' with no harm done is a mute argument IMHO.

[Fascinated1]

If you scream, it's anything but mute! 

[Daveman]

I've seen this 99% figure bandied about often, it's one of those cliches that are generally accepted with little to back it up accept except anecdotal comments from a few disgruntled agency owners who claim to want to tell it like it is.

I'm not buying it.

During the years of my search, I probably wrote to hundreds of women (some from agencies, some from freeps). Some women I dismissed after their first responses, some after a few emails, some blew me off, some went further but were too far logistically to visit. Out of all these women I wrote to, I met approximately a few dozen in person. Now, if you were to go back to the agencies or to the individual girls who weren't among these few dozen, they would undoubtedly lump me in with the keyboard romeo crowd, accuse me of never intending to visit the FSU, or tag me as "not serious" when the simple fact of the matter is that I did visit Ukraine and Russia - quite a few times, in fact - I just didn't visit them or their agencies because I had to go with what seemed to me to be the best options available at the time.

I don't know if it makes a difference to some of you whether the percentage of guys who write but never visit is 99, 75, or 50 - the moral relativists among us will find ways to excuse any plainly unethical behavior among Russians or point to some vaguely approximate equivalent in Westerners to deflect criticism.

Nice point.  I've always thought that touted percentage is off the charts dubious as well.  Using your logic above and an estimate of the number of ladies with whom I communicated, my visitation rate is a fraction under 3%, which I guess would make me a 97% prick on certain flowcharts -- of course, the prickundity percentage would be lower if I added to the equation the number of ladies who lost interest in me, but that point is thunderously mute (to steal joke) as we're considering only visitation.

I could believe a majority don't ever travel, pegging at a numeric value greater than 50%, but there really isn't a possible way to measure something even close to reality.  I would also guess that there could be more ladies listed at the various agencies who *never* get a visit, for whatever reason, than there are men who write and don't travel. So the numerical data, were it available, would be relatively skewed depending on perspective and slant.

The ethical discussion is a bit more nebulous as we each have a value system based on some intangible criteria.  I'm certainly not a saint and never claimed to be, but I doubt I could trust a woman who actively participated in a con job, regardless of nationality.

[Sculpto]

Funny thread..

Sucker born every day.. sure.. no problem..

However... when an agency deliberately interferes with a relationship, or, educates a lady in the art of scamming there is something else at work and it is beyond unethical.

There are TONS of ways to find FSU ladies who are not scammers using free sources.  Social networking sites like Vkontakt are simply awesome for this.  The best part is you get everything uncensored and without coaching.  Once I discovered that resource I realized how stupid spending even one penny with ANY agency, regardless of reputation, is.  ICQ also has TONS of FSU ladies hanging out online and chatting. 

Blaming the supposedly 99% of keyboard Romeos for the 1% of men who go and fail with corrupt agencies isn't fair.  I mean it isn't fair to the 1%.  The sites advertise a specific service to a specific target and usually fail to provide it.  the 99% are not relevant. 

Anyway, the best way to put an end to all this would be to find a good way to educate the ladies who naively join agencies, sometimes because they really want to find a husband, or because all their friends did it, or because they got $20, or because they heard they can get gifts and vacations or whatever bad reason.  But, most of them probably have no idea they are signing away the control over their images and that some scamming letter writer in the agency will "speak" in their name with countless men all over the world.  They might figure it out later.. but when they sign the membership forms I am sure they aren't thinking about consequences.

[kievstar]

Women like guys who visit.  Agencies like guys who write letters and visit.  But they make more money off letters and gifts.  Letters keep the agency in business.  Every girl I wanted to visit showed up for a date.  Even girls guys I met in Ukraine complained about.  But I never chased the girls under 23 years old.  A grown man in most cases would be a fool to chase girls under 23.

If a guy writes to 50 women who write him back and in return he receives 50 different womens letters written to him.  But he only visits 5 of them.  95% of women no contact.  Average in the fact that many men write more and never visit.  99% happens very quick.  But the 99% is probably high as majority of these letters never go to the women (agency screens them) and majority of these men if they showed their picture to these girls would never write back to these men.  This is where the agencies use their judgement to keep the money stream from men dating out of their league.

Personally I have only visited one girl in my life I wrote or received a letter from (marrying her on March 14th).  I am very close to 99.99% no contact.

Men who date of their league have issues with agencies.  A good looking, nice guy, travels to Ukraine every 2 months, with good career will have great success with ladies in agencies. 

Charming brides in Kharkov is a very good agency but I only found one girl in the entire agency to be attractive, Kiev Connections is a good agency if you avoid the girls who write in the profile I want financially secure man ( unless your millionaire you will have issues) - again I found only 6 girls I was attracted to. MissUA in Kiev is good but girls not very attractive.  Many of the girls on Elenas models are hookers in Kiev and you can find them around the sex tourist spots.  Delphania used to be good but now they go after the sex tourist market.  Just a lot more money there in Kiev from the sex tourists.

Anastasia agencies has the more attractive women.   Every girl I wanted to meet showed up.  But I am not a letter writer.  And these girls were serious.  But stay away from the young girls.  There are exceptions but most guys who visit are way to old and have no clue how to make a big age gap marriage work.  Young girls change their minds a lot too.

[Misha]

There are TONS of ways to find FSU ladies who are not scammers using free sources.  Social networking sites like Vkontakt are simply awesome for this.  The best part is you get everything uncensored and without coaching.  Once I discovered that resource I realized how stupid spending even one penny with ANY agency, regardless of reputation, is.  ICQ also has TONS of FSU ladies hanging out online and chatting. 

Agree with you 100% here.

[groovlstk]

Agree with you 100% here.

Ditto for me. When I first started my search, about 7 years ago, no such options existed. Most guys were stuck w/agencies - even most of the postings on freepersonals sites were initiated by agencies trying to lure guys into their network. Today there are many other available options yet curiously it seems fairly uncommon to see anyone taking advantage of these options.

[Daveman]

There are TONS of ways to find FSU ladies who are not scammers using free sources.  Social networking sites like Vkontakt are simply awesome for this.  The best part is you get everything uncensored and without coaching.  Once I discovered that resource I realized how stupid spending even one penny with ANY agency, regardless of reputation, is.  ICQ also has TONS of FSU ladies hanging out online and chatting. 

I almost agree here.  Definitely agree the resources are available but I really think these venues are not necessarily well suited for newbies.  For chatting and such, of course.  Not that the agencies actually 'assist and help' but I think someone actually 'graduates' upward to this other approach.  All of us who would now easily go for it alone using independent non dating specific venues have quite a bit of experience under our belts with both the women and the culture, etc.  The filtering process is second nature.  I think it's probably better for those who have never made a trip to stay in the shallow end of the pool and learn to swim a bit before diving in the deep water.

Perhaps that seems a bit condescending to grown men who are quite capable of making decisions for themselves, but I do believe it.  The refinement of the filtering process and a little understanding of the ladies and what one is actually getting into would be prerequisites for the alternative methods... all IMO

[Misha]

Definitely agree the resources are available but I really think these venues are not necessarily well suited for newbies.

Why? Are newbies automatically idiots? Take vkontakte.ru. They have an English interface. You create a profile. You join the groups devoted to those who want to practice their English. If a newby can't sign up and have a conversation with a Russian woman online, he would be a pretty hopeless cause IMHO.

[ScottinCrimea]

If a newby can't sign up and have a conversation with a Russian woman online, he would be a pretty hopeless cause IMHO.

Even if he can, there are no guarantees.   :ohbrother:

[Misha]

Even if we can, there are no guarantees.   :ohbrother:

And an agency can provide a guarantee? 

[Daveman]

Why? Are newbies automatically idiots? Take vkontakte.ru. They have an English interface. You create a profile. You join the groups devoted to those who want to practice their English. If a newby can't sign up and have a conversation with a Russian woman online, he would be a pretty hopeless cause IMHO.

Some are idiots; some aren't.  Some are level headed; some don't have a clue and couldn't buy one.  Some are not idiots but just don't have a grasp of the situation, or don't even comprehend that there is a little more to the situation to grasp.  And I am pretty sure I did mention "Chatting of course" which would, IMO, infer a conversation.  Having a conversation with a woman is not quite the same thing as being prepared to filter her as a possible candidate for marriage.  Sure, women are women, blah blah, but there are some differences involved.   Probably splitting hairs a bit as the bottom line is always getting on the ground there with a woman/women to meet.  At least with the reputable agencies the women should already be interested in a relationship with a foreign guy.  

Some of the guys with experience under their belts appear to be some of the most prolific real idiots whereas the guys new to all of this just have a bit of learning to do.  

As with anything, it depends on the guy.  I think though that after we get a bit of understanding we tend to forget how much we didn't know when we didn't know it.

[Misha]

Having a conversation with a woman is not quite the same thing as being prepared to filter her as a possible candidate for marriage.

The only way to "filter" is to have a lot of conversations. If a guy thinks that he can use an agency and somehow skip this step, he will be in for a rude awakening at some point  :evil:

Sure, women are women, blah blah, but there are some differences involved.

If you deal with normal RW, the differences are not as extreme as some would think, and this is after 14 years or so of dealing pretty exclusively only with RW.

At least with the reputable agencies the women should already be interested in a relationship with a foreign guy.

Yes, but with the other FREE options, you will also find women open to the idea who are not listed on any agency sites, which means less competition for the smarter guys   

[Daveman]

Well, Misha, I can't disagree with anything you've said there because that is the path I would absolutely take if I had to search again. 

Prior to your 14 years of experience (that alone should give you food for thought Newbies), I doubt your filtering mechanism was nearly as astute as it is now. You also learned to speak Russian and knew a hell of a lot about the culture prior to finding you wife (newbies pay attention).  You are not in the same boat at those just beginning.  Groov had quite a number of trips and a ton of days on the ground prior to meeting his current wife through an alternative method.  Sculpto, as far as I understand, has also had some trips under his belt.  That's what I am getting at, fwiw, which is perhaps nothing.

A level headed approach without the starry-eyed vision of grandeur will have a gazillion times better chance with any method, but sometimes, regardless of how intelligent or non idiotic a guy can be, knocking those stars out of the eyes only comes through getting his ass over there.    

We don't really disagree, I'm just a little more cautious I guess.

[Vaughn]

I believe it's all a matter of personal comfort. Personally - if I were to get interested in RW today
with marriage in mind, I'd seek an honest agency with a track record. Wading through countless
profiles on Facebook and vkontakte to weed out all the mere socialites would. for me, be a task
I'd rather not deal with...

I see them as kid's sites. Hell. my own stepdaughter networks with her Russian friends there - none
of whom have the least desire to head West - but all do want to practice their English skills.

I do agree they are great sources of meeting RW. Me, I'd rather cut to the chase.

[Misha]

Wading through countless profiles on Facebook and vkontakte to weed out all the mere socialites would. for me, be a task I'd rather not deal with...

To each his own. I did not find it that difficult using a dating cite. You send a few dozen messages, get a few responses, set one date, meet her, see if it works out, if it doesn't go back to the site and start over again.

[Vaughn]

You send a few dozen messages, get a few responses, set one date, meet her, see if it works out, if it doesn't go back to the site and start over again.

With each date treated like a WOVO journey? You're correct - to each his own.

[Simoni]

At least with the reputable agencies the women should already be interested in a relationship with a foreign guy.  

This is a very key point.  When you meet girls vis a reputable dating agency, you get a pool who have already declared they are open to a foreign relationship. On ICQ, you don't get that at all.

Yes, but with the other FREE options, you will also find women open to the idea who are not listed on any agency sites, which means less competition for the smarter guys   

You got that bass awkards.  The smarter guys go directly to a certified pool and invest their time there.

... I'd seek an honest agency with a track record. Wading through countless
profiles on Facebook and vkontakte to weed out all the mere socialites would. for me, be a task
I'd rather not deal with...Me, I'd rather cut to the chase.

Now this is what I'm talking about!  Vaughn-- one of the smart guys.

[Misha]

You got that bass awkards.  The smarter guys go directly to a certified pool and invest their time there.

Well, I will use a fishing metaphor to simplify things. Do you prefer to fish in a small pool with crawling with boats and people fishing, or a large lake where you are the only one with his rod and reel? I preferred the latter

[Vaughn]

Ah, but Misha, you know as well as I do that knowing the Russian language eliminates the horde of
weekend fishermen....  as for pools, I preferred the well-stocked trout stream over an ocean full of
virtual unknowns. All these metaphors - my wife would crucify me at the town center, LOL.

We could argue the point both ways until kingdom come - and there really is no way proven to be
superior. Each method has its merits and drawbacks, and I see your points clearly. It's just my
distinct feeling that offering such a large pool to a newbie clouds the desired target.

There are very astute individuals here that would argue for a natural chance meeting - to toss out
the idea of ANY profile at all. So where does that leave us? Hopefully, these pro/con discussions
will compel the uninitiated to think for himself, and select the method that feels like home.

[Daveman]

Well, I will use a fishing metaphor to simplify things. Do you prefer to fish in a small pool with crawling with boats and people fishing, or a large lake where you are the only one with his rod and reel? I preferred the latter

But in the large big lake, you gotta understand the behavioral patterns of the fish... if you're fishing where they ain't, you can't catch one.    Smaller lakes are easy, but catching a limit of bass or walleye (them darn bass with teeth) in a large lake takes some knowledge, patience and practice.  Soooo, your analogy proves my point!  

 :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:

[Sculpto]

You got that bass awkards.  The smarter guys go directly to a certified pool and invest their time there.

And here underlies the problem.  You assume the women on agency sites are somehow certified in their interest, yet, how many times have guys gone over only to find out the girl he spent tens or hundreds corresponding with is a fake, not serious, a pro dater or any other variant?  If anyone learns anything from the forum it should be that there are no guarantees with any girl no matter how you meet her.

An agency can be totally reputable and "you" can still have the same result.  And, unfortunately the chances of finding an agency that is totally reputable are pretty slim.  I wonder if that 99% figure can be extended to agencies.. meaning.. 99% of agencies are not reputable.

To me, in the digital age, people from every corner of the world are corresponding often with an underlying hope of finding a match they might not otherwise be able to find locally.  The ability to communicate through the internet is creating possibilities that never existed in the history of humanity and people are accepting it and adapting to it in ways no one ever thought of.  Social networking sites open these doors on a mass scale.  It would seem that even for a newbie to dating Russian women, but someone with experience in online dating and networking, should be able to arrange a scenario to visit a place and be recieved by virtual friends into a real world network, anyplace in the world someone might want to go, the FSU or South America or Asia or anywhere!

I would say the ONLY reason to use an agency would be for someone with little or no international travel experience who wants to have all arrangements done, or, for someone with more money than time who expects and is willing to pay for an exceptional amount of service.  For everyone else, there is just no reason anymore to go that route when so many free and legitimate alternatives exist.

[Daveman]

I would say the ONLY reason to use an agency would be for someone with little or no international travel experience who wants to have all arrangements done, or, for someone with more money than time who expects and is willing to pay for an exceptional amount of service.  For everyone else, there is just no reason anymore to go that route when so many free and legitimate alternatives exist.

Why rule out ANY possible avenue of success (aside from being free)? Find her wherever you find her.  Big lake, little pond, creek, stream, river, ocean, sea... a concentrated level headed effort aimed at any of those will bring a good result.. it ain't so much the venue as it is the quality of the search (and fisherman) ...

[Misha]

Smaller lakes are easy, but catching a limit of bass or walleye (them darn bass with teeth) in a large lake takes some knowledge, patience and practice.  Soooo, your analogy proves my point!  

Fine, I concede your point. Let the newbies and WM go to the agencies as they clearly need a lot of help 

[Sculpto]

But in the large big lake, you gotta understand the behavioral patterns of the fish... if you're fishing where they ain't, you can't catch one.    Smaller lakes are easy, but catching a limit of bass or walleye (them darn bass with teeth) in a large lake takes some knowledge, patience and practice.  Soooo, your analogy proves my point!  

Comeon Dave.. in every lake you have to understand those patterns.  The size of the lake is irrelevant.  What is more important is the ability to communicate unfettered and as soon as somoene stops letting third parties intervene in the communication the doors to more realistic expectations opens.