St.Pete's Trip Report Jan 2009

[Vaughn]

I thought that once it was clear the lady wasn't a scammer, then she was serious.  I know think that there are many profiles from women who like the idea, but really aren't prepared for the reality.

Or think they like the idea, until, as you say, they are faced with the reality. The cold feet syndrome strikes
fairly often, even with seemingly sincere agency ladies.

No matter who she is or where she's from, she has always wanted a local man but for some reason that hasn't worked out and she not willing to sit around and wait to get a turn as life is short. Leaving country, leaving family, leaving culture, leaving friends, leaving her whole world is something she doesn't want to to--unless she believes its her only choice, and she has genuinely fallen in love with you and decided the great risks are worth it.

Well stated. And it's why I feel chasing younger ladies is risky business, albeit rewarding business for those
with time, money and extreme patience. Fortunately for my wife and I, we found love in one another, but it
could be argued that a woman over 30 with a child is not marriage material for a Russian man - and I would
agree that the notion is fact. The way I see things, their oversight was my good fortune. Yeah, she would have
rather found a RM, and years ago - but guess what? No longer. For many reasons I won't go into here, she'd
never trade me in for one of them, and in that I'm confident.

I believe that given a pool of 100 Russian girls, ages 20-25, probably 98 of them cannot fathom jumping ship
for a Western man, which mortises well with ambach's assertion about St Piter girls. As they age, of course, priorities for some will change. Daveyj, I wish you the best in your quest, here or abroad. And I AM glad to
know you didn't sulk alone in a rented flat - getting out of the house was smart stuff. I've suggested this to
others in the past - and will again - you might attempt to "book yourself" as a Guest speaker at a local
English Club, university sponsored, next trip if there IS one. Nice way to immerse yourself into a crowd of
wannabe English linguists, in your city of choice with your desired age range to boot. Just a thought.

[GoodOlBoy]

Having said the above, I must also admit that "K" (the university student) was in fact 21.  

On day 7 I went to Central Station (a gay bar). 

21 year olds?? 

Gay Bars??

As I said before in one of my previous posts (when I was so rudely attacked by the "Anointed Ones"), you Sir are in some sort of "Denial Process" (aka...exploring your "feelings").


GOB


BTW Simoni....A great man once said "The Truth Will Set You Free". 

[Misha]

On day 2 (after "T" cancelled the nightclub) I went out to Magrib.  Yes, I understand it is a cheesy expat barsfor tourists.  But I was on short notice, it was in my area, and I figured that people would speak english there.  It was pretty empty, but I enjoyed dancing (by myself unfortunetly). 

On day 6 I went to Club Rossi, and once again enjoyed some time on the dance floor.  I had several brief conversations with various people (ok, mostly pretty girls), but my poor Russian speaking put an end to those pretty quickly.  The only person I encountered there who spoke good english was a 50-ish cougar (well preserved to her credit) who came up to me. 

I returned to Rossi on Day 8 (with "K" and friends) and I saw this same lady there, and I don't think I've mislabeled her to describe her as a semi-pro.

On day 7 I went to Central Station (a gay bar).  Sorry if that shocks some of you, but not only is there a large gay community in my hometown, but I also know a lot of people who "are" gay, lesbian and even transgendered. For me, it is not that big a deal.   Just as there are often some gay people in a straight bar, there are also straight people in a gay bar.   While there, a very drunk girl tried to pick me up.  (yes, I am sure she was a girl, ha ha). 

While you were in Piter, which art galleries did you visit? Did you try to find any woman who would want to visit the Hermitage with you? Did you seek out any small off the beaten track art galleries that foreigners do not generally visit?

The following is not a personal attack, but an observation. In reading your post, it seems to me that you either are intent on bringing dates to bars/nightclubs or meeting women at bars and nightclubs. IMHO, that is a pretty lousy strategy for a number of reasons.

The first is that nightclubs and bars are noisy and impossible to have a conversation. Also, is it sending the right message? What is it that would attract a 20-something-old woman to a 40-year-old? Hopefully she would be attracted to him because he is serious, charming, intelligent, looking to have a family, etc.... What message does a 40-year-old man bringing a 20-something-year-old to a diskoteka on their first date? That he is none of the above in my aforementioned list of qualities a 20-something-year-old may be looking for in an older man.

Why should you not look for women in a nightclub? Don't get me wrong, it can be fun to go out to a nightclub, but usually people are looking for something other than a long-term relationship with a fellow artistic soul. Trust me, twenty-something-year-old women will not be interested in you in that way when they are in a bar filled with 20-something-year-old men. This is evident in the woman who were attracted to you and were hitting on you: a very drunk woman at a gay bar (i.e. there was nobody else but you) and a "cougar" at a straight bar (i.e. not being successful with younger men and saw your "success" with younger women and figured you were an easy catch). You may think that you are a wonderful dancer and have all the moves, but clearly you are not attracting the women that you want to attract in a bar or disco.

I am curious, is this the type of lifestyle you live back home? Do you often go to nightclubs and bars? Is this the lifestyle you would want to have with your future wife if and once she gets to your city (Toronto)? This will likely cause you some issues. Firstly, for a young woman who wants to settle down and have a family, having a husband who wants to go to the diskoteka every weekend may send the wrong signal. On the other hand, if you do find a woman who loves the night life and that is her passion, she may realize once she gets to Canada that going out to the trendiest nightclubs with a 40-year-old may be a bit of a downer. She may find many much younger men who make much better partners to go clubbing with 

   

[Misha]

Sorry, ended up posting twice.

[Simoni]

BTW Simoni....A great man once said "The Truth Will Set You Free". 

GOB-- the truth is that you don't or can't read well.  21 you say?

Daveyj CLEARLY wrote that his target age was:   
"per my original post I contacted a large number of women via the various sites and although most were 25-30, there were also some 30+ and some under-25."   He went on to say he met one 21 year old.  But you choose once again to default to the youngest age to smear this poster.  Shame on you.

Did you also fail to read this?

One final thing...

I appreciate the advice offered and the differing perspectives presented, but I'm not really interested in spending the rest of my life debating this TR or justifying myself.  I'm happy for the board members to continue to discuss the topics contained within, but perhaps as a small thanks to me for providing the TR for the benefit of the board you can cut me some slack and ease off on some of the personal comments about me?  thx in advance

It's time for you to quit bashing someone because they have a different view of age differences than you have, especially since you continue to distort what he says.  In addition, lots of guys here in their 40s have married fsu girls in their 20s, and have happy marriages.  But you ignore all of this with your blistering attacks as you try to conform the world to your image.

[ambach123]

Quote

" No matter who she is or where she's from, she has always wanted a local man but for some reason that hasn't worked out and she not willing to sit around and wait to get a turn as life is short. Leaving country, leaving family, leaving culture, leaving friends, leaving her whole world is something she doesn't want to to--unless she believes its her only choice, and she has genuinely fallen in love with you and decided the great risks are worth it. "

You would think the above is correct and that she would not want to leave unless she is genuinely in love; but reading some of the stories here, I am not sure if that is always the case.

Putting another way, if she wants to leave to be with you, does that mean that she is genuinely in love?

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB-- the truth is that you don't or can't read well.  21 you say?

Daveyj CLEARLY wrote that his target age was:   
"per my original post I contacted a large number of women via the various sites and although most were 25-30, there were also some 30+ and some under-25."   He went on to say he met one 21 year old.  But you choose once again to default to the youngest age to smear this poster.  Shame on you.

Did you also fail to read this?It's time for you to quit bashing someone because they have a different view of age differences than you have, especially since you continue to distort what he says.  In addition, lots of guys here in their 40s have married fsu girls in their 20s, and have happy marriages.  But you ignore all of this with your blistering attacks as you try to conform the world to your image.

Simoni.....And what "Pearls of Wisdom " do you have for DaveyJ concerning his affinity for visiting "GAY BARS" in Chicago and Russia?

Do you want to tell him how Russian people really "feel" about "GAYS", or should I break the news to him? 


GOB

[Simoni]

GOB:

I would advise him, if he asked for advice, to avoid all bars when looking for a girl.

Bad things happen in such places, including girls drugging foreign guys.

The point is that Davey clearly wrote that he wants some of the posters here to lay off their attacks.  I think that request should be honored.

[Misha]

Do you want to tell him how Russian people "feel" about "GAYS", or should I break the news to him? 

Even though there is nothing inherently wrong with going to a gay bar even if one is straight, going to any bar or nightclub would be potentially dangerous. Going to a gay bar would carry some additional risks given the attacks by skinheads reported in Russia both on visible minorities and openly gay men.   

[GoodOlBoy]

Even though there is nothing inherently wrong with going to a gay bar even if one is straight, going to any bar or nightclub would be potentially dangerous. Going to a gay bar would carry some additional risks given the attacks by skinheads reported in Russia both on visible minorities and openly gay men.  

Misha, I like you and your posts are very well written and informative.

You are definitely "Anointed One" material  , BUT, I think you are being a little modest when you describe how much "intolerance" there is in Russia.

There are MANY attacks in Russia each day carried out on minorities and Gays.

NOTE TO NEWBIES:

Do not go into Gay Bars in Russia, unless you are looking for some kind of trouble.

When you come outside and there are 4 or 5 of these clowns, kicking the crap out of you, it is to late to say: "I'm not gay!"


GOB

[Faux Pas]

Misha, I like you and your posts are very well written and informative.

You are definitely "Anointed One" material  , BUT, I think you are being a little modest when you describe how much "intolerance" there is in Russia.

There are MANY attacks in Russia each day carried out on minorities and Gays.

NOTE TO NEWBIES:

Do not go into Gay Bars in Russia, unless you are looking for some kind of trouble.

When you come outside and there are 4 or 5 of these clowns, kicking the crap out of you, it is to late to say: "I'm not gay!"


GOB

GOB as well as mendeleyev has a very valid point here. One can likely visit a gay bar in Chicago or Toronto and walk out without much stigma or danger. Not the case in Russia. Homosexuals are still detested by the masses and are frequent targets for violence. The old saying of "you are only as good as the company you keep" can carry a much deeper meaning in Russia and even in the more liberal cities such as Petersburg. No one including the militia will give one rats ass when local thugs or skinheads administer a severe beating.

I'm glad for daveyj that he got away without any trouble but he should give more consideration to where he is before visiting bars in general and specifically gay bars. This part of his explanation really confuses me. I understand he is not a homophobe and frequents gay bars in his city.  But why would he visit such a bar in a city where he is searching for women in which to develop relationships? What does it prove to any woman he had met or hoped to meet? What point was he possibly hoping to prove?

daveyj, I hope you don't take this as an attack because it isn't. But it is awfully confusing as to why you would make such a choice? It really flies in the face of everything you stated you hoped to achieve.

[Sculpto]

Daveyj,

Unlike everyone else here I commend you for going to a gay bar in Piter.  I understand the comfort you an feel in that environment.  Some of my best friends in SF are gay.  http://www.thesisters.org/

The chances of being attacked are small, as are the chances of being drugged or anything else.  My god guys, are you are really that stuffed?  Pull the corncob out of the tunnel please.    Views about gays are changing fast in Russia.  Its not all about the things you read in newspapers.  Sure, some bashing goes on, but you know what, the same thing happens right here in the gay capitol of the world.  Its just a very unfortunate fact of life for gays and as awareness EVERYWHERE grows these incidents diminish.  Besides, in the younger club going generations it is much much less of an issue than it is for older people.  So, take out the fascists and stuffed shirt seniors and religious fanatics and there are tons of people who could care less about the gay lifestyle. 

I still think Daveyj was far too open with his "targets".

What is the typical russian girls response when a man talks about other girls, especially a "failure"? 

Also, going back to the topic of clubs.. Personally I do not think Daveyj made a wrong decision to go clubbing.  He was alone in a very big city.  After the rejections/frustrations he probably was not thinking there was much of a chance to find anything serious on a random encounter, so, why not go where there are people?  At least in a club there was a chance to meet someone as normally people go to clubs/bars to socialize.  Given the circumstances I think he did the right thing. 

Daveyj, if you are thinking to try this again please contact me via pm as I am sure we have a lot in common and i think I can help you.

[Misha]

Sure, some bashing goes on

This is quite an understatement.

At least in a club there was a chance to meet someone as normally people go to clubs/bars to socialize.  Given the circumstances I think he did the right thing. 

That you think this does not surprise me 

Daveyj, if you are thinking to try this again please contact me via pm as I am sure we have a lot in common and i think I can help you.

I am sure that you have a lot in common from what I have read. 




[/quote]

[Faux Pas]

The chances of being attacked are small, as are the chances of being drugged or anything else.  My god guys, are you are really that stuffed?  Pull the corncob out of the tunnel please.    Views about gays are changing fast in Russia.  Its not all about the things you read in newspapers.  Sure, some bashing goes on, but you know what, the same thing happens right here in the gay capitol of the world.  Its just a very unfortunate fact of life for gays and as awareness EVERYWHERE grows these incidents diminish.  Besides, in the younger club going generations it is much much less of an issue than it is for older people.  So, take out the fascists and stuffed shirt seniors and religious fanatics and there are tons of people who could care less about the gay lifestyle. 

Sculpt,

If there is anyone with their head stuck in a bunghole here, on this subject, it would be you. Gay lifestyles are not an accepted lifestyle the world over. Your SF attitudes can still get you killed in some places. Russia is one of them. Views on this particular subject are not changing fast in Russia. Just because you declare it or say it so means diddly squat.

It doesn't matter if you accept homosexuality or that most of your friends are gay. It doesn't matter if you see nothing wrong with frequenting gay bars. It doesn't even matter if you are not gay. The perception of those who will impose violence on any perceived homosexual is real and can lead to the finality of death. WTF does it matter if you are gay or not when you are spotted coming out of such a place in a foreign land and are beaten or killed? Is there anything in particular you free thinking lovers of the homosexual lifestyle place on tombstones of such victims? Does it somehow help the next guy who is killed? Your comment is pure tripe and encouraging some to flirt with unneeded danger. Get your head out of your ass, Russia isn't San Francisco.

[GoodOlBoy]

Get your head out of your ass, Russia isn't San Francisco.

Amen Faux Pas, you aren't kidding.

Can you imagine if the Mayor of San Francisco said this about one of their "Gay Pride Parades"? Bye...Bye....Mayor! 

QUOTE: "For example, in May 2006, gay rights activists organized a Gay Pride parade in Moscow to celebrate the 13th anniversary of the repeal of Article 121, which had made homosexuality illegal in Russia. The parade was intended to be a peaceful demonstration, but it turned violent when participants were beaten by protesters and arrested by police. Moscow mayor Yuri Luzhkov said recently that Gay Pride parades "may be acceptable for some kind of progressive, in some sense, countries in the West, but it is absolutely unacceptable for Moscow, for Russia" he added that the parades "can only be described as a satanic act."


SOURCE: http://www.sras.org/hate_crime_in_russia


GOB

[Sculpto]

And yet there are gay clubs, and yet the gay men in Moscow are willing to risk life and limb for the right to be who they are.. and yet the lonely planet guide is filled with references to the multitudes of gay clubs in Moscow.  If times weren't changing

You guys can go get with the foxbororough ministry and cry about the abomination, but, the fact remains that in almost all societies about 10% of the population is gay. 

Funny thing is Putin himself is backing Eurovision.  Times are changin..

http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/

http://english.pravda.ru/society/showbiz/22-07-2008/105850-moscow-eurovision-0

[GoodOlBoy]

Political Hogwash.

This crap was reported on TV and pretty much discounted for what it is, Political Propaganda so Putin can garner favor with Europe and the European public....THATS ALL.

I would not encourage any Gay people to go march (prance) in any parades inside Russia.

If you do, you will get your "treatment".  :evil:


GOB

[Sculpto]

Political Hogwash.

This crap was reported on TV and pretty much discounted for what it is, Political Propaganda so Putin can garner favor with Europe and the European public....THATS ALL.

I would not encourage any Gay people to go march (prance) in any parades inside Russia.

If you do, you will get your "treatment".  :evil:


GOB

Simply with your use of the word "prance" you make your homophobia quite clear.  For someone who makes himself out to be a "real man' you are showing a lot of insecurity, not to mention your utter lack of information and ignorance of the gay world. 

[Misha]

And yet there are gay clubs, and yet the gay men in Moscow are willing to risk life and limb for the right to be who they are..

... Times are changin..

Don't forget that there are 70,000+ skinheads in Russia from the stats I have read. Some of their most recent crimes include the murder and beheading of a Tajik migrant worker in Moscow this last December. Their favorite targets are people out on their own. A man leaving a gay bar alone at night in St. Petersburg would make a too easy target for a gang of skinheads to ignore. True, the odds are still not that high that you will be attacked, but the risk is much higher than lets say walking out of the Hermitage in the afternoon.

[Sculpto]

Don't forget that there are 70,000+ skinheads in Russia from the stats I have read. Some of their most recent crimes include the murder and beheading of a Tajik migrant worker in Moscow this last December. Their favorite targets are people out on their own. A man leaving a gay bar alone at night in St. Petersburg would make a too easy target for a gang of skinheads to ignore. True, the odds are still not that high that you will be attacked, but the risk is much higher than lets say walking out of the Hermitage in the afternoon.

Agree.. not much chance of being attacked coming out of the museum.. 

Nevertheless.. i personally would have no fear and I suspect daveyj didn't either.  I saw the skinheads when I was in Donetsk.. frankly they aren't nearly as scary as some of their "brothers" here in the states.  70,000 skins in a country of over 140 million is a realy really small percentage.  If they are even the smallest bit like the morons I used to deal with from St. Joseph they spend most of their time drinking beer and shooting bunnies.  And, from the RT segment I saw a month or two ago that would seem a pretty accurate depiction.  Living in fear is not living. 

[ScottinCrimea]

You guys can go get with the foxbororough ministry and cry about the abomination, but, the fact remains that in almost all societies about 10% of the population is gay. 

Sulpto, you really need to check your facts before you throw out the anecdotes and "statistics" from the propaganda pamphlets.  That 10% number comes from Kindey's original report in the 1940's and has been latched on to by gays to further their agenda, rationalize their lifestyle and to make it appear more acceptable.  Kinsy's study was seriously flawed, including the fact that a high percentage of his subjects were prostitutes and the prison population.  He didn't use many of the controls that are considered standard practice by statisticians today.

The most recent studies, both nationally and internationally, put the figure at 1-3%.  Anyone who continues to throw out the 10% number is either woefully uninformed or willingly deceptive.  Living in SF will naturally give you a skewed view of the percentage of gays as well as many other things that are considered outside the concept of normal everywhere else.

To stave off the expected accusations of homophobia, yes I have friends who are gay, and yes, I have been to gay bars, the last time just a couple of months ago.  Would I do it in the FSU?  Not a chance!

[Faux Pas]

Agree.. not much chance of being attacked coming out of the museum.. 

Nevertheless.. i personally would have no fear and I suspect daveyj didn't either.  I saw the skinheads when I was in Donetsk.. frankly they aren't nearly as scary as some of their "brothers" here in the states.  70,000 skins in a country of over 140 million is a realy really small percentage.  If they are even the smallest bit like the morons I used to deal with from St. Joseph they spend most of their time drinking beer and shooting bunnies.  And, from the RT segment I saw a month or two ago that would seem a pretty accurate depiction.  Living in fear is not living. 

The 70K I could see walking down the street would scare me the least. I can recognize them and know what they stand for. Do you honestly believe that the 70K is all the threat for hate crime in Russia? For someone with supposed time on the ground in Russia/Ukraine you weren't very observant were you? Do you believe the majority of the other 140 million will share your attitude on homosexuality? What solace will you take in that with a steel toed boot crashing into your teeth? Or what solace should some newbie take in your words with his bone cracking from the advice you posted to "sure! be proud to visit gay bars" in the forum? Your words and encouragement here Sculpt are very irresponsible. Hopefully, no one will take them to heart.

[Misha]

I saw the skinheads when I was in Donetsk.. frankly they aren't nearly as scary as some of their "brothers" here in the states. 

Sculpto, is your naivete for real? The fact that you consider the skinheads not "scary" is of little consolation to the 20 people killed by one gang in Moscow: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/16/russia-trial-gang-murder. When was the last time that a gang of skinheads was convicted of killing twenty immigrants or racial minorities in the United States?

[GoodOlBoy]

When was the last time that a gang of skinheads was convicted of killing twenty immigrants or racial minorities in the United States?

I noticed in the article Misha, that 2 of the "murders" got what was described as "lengthy" sentences 10 years! WOW!

In the GoodOl' USA we have those "pesky" Hate Crime Laws.

So when a person is convicted here (USA) of a hate crime they get a mandatory "enhancement" tacked on (consecutive +) to their original sentence (murder, attempted murder, felonious assault, etc.).

In other words they are going to spend a VERY long time in jail.

I think when you dish out this kind of punishment for any type of crime, it tends to make a person stop and think about his actions.


GOB

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, is your naivete for real? The fact that you consider the skinheads not "scary" is of little consolation to the 20 people killed by one gang in Moscow: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/16/russia-trial-gang-murder. When was the last time that a gang of skinheads was convicted of killing twenty immigrants or racial minorities in the United States?

Actually there is a cop on trial right now in Oakland.  Then there is the idaho case.. there are plenty of examples..