Cultural: Sex in Ukraine Society

[Goombah]

Well, this board has the reputation for getting the hard hitting subjects out in front, so thought I would start this thread.

For starters, I recommend everyone read:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/ukraine.html

Its a bit dated, but had good stuff in it (I was late to work so I could finish reading it one morning).

From there, lets talk about "good girls", "bad girls", what to think if you get laid on the first date, third date, don't get laid after five dates, etc.  If you don't get laid is you lady not serious - or very serious?

We could branch out into "Should I expect her to stay with me if [she is coming from another city? Living in the same city?  Lives across town?  We e-mailed each other for 6 months first?  I met her that trip?].

Should prove interesting...

Kevin C.

[Admin]

Well, this board has the reputation for getting the hard hitting subjects out in front, so thought I would start this thread.

For starters, I recommend everyone read:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/ukraine.html

Its a bit dated, but had good stuff in it (I was late to work so I could finish reading it one morning).

From there, lets talk about "good girls", "bad girls", what to think if you get laid on the first date, third date, don't get laid after five dates, etc.  If you don't get laid is you lady not serious - or very serious?

We could branch out into "Should I expect her to stay with me if [she is coming from another city? Living in the same city?  Lives across town?  We e-mailed each other for 6 months first?  I met her that trip?].

Should prove interesting...

Kevin C.

Hard-hitting alright!

- Dan

[KenC]

My wife was a bit prudish in the beginning.  She even told me that there would be no sex before marriage.  (As if I would believe that! LOL)  But seriously, she led a rather sheltered sexual life as a young woman in Russia.  I read about how sexually active the girls are in the fsu countries and it just doesn't compute with what I know from my wife.  Now I am not saying she was a virgin, but limited experieces for her age.  I do find her to be more open now, sexually, than most American women I have known, but more difficult to bed in the beginning than most American women I have known. 

KenC

[jb]

Since I met my wife in a business setting, there was NO sex in the beginning.  I think she even had instruction from her supervisor on the subject.  Eventually we did get together and I wasn't disappointed, but it was a very normal sort of thing, not rushed or pushed, certainly I never had the feeling she was setting the hook for marriage.

[BC]

.... certainly I never had the feeling she was setting the hook for marriage.

That's certainly the sign of a good fisherman.. and a very lucky fish

[Goombah]

There has been a lot written on this topic.  When I made my first visit last December, I was under the impression that a lady would not go up to a man's apartment unless she was willing to have sex.  The lady I ended up dating made this clear on the second date.  We did visit my apartment twice, but both times with my female interpretor as a chaperone (once to look at Missouri picture books I brought with, once when I cooked dinner for the three of us).

I was also told flatly by a lady (still a friend) that it was inappropriate for me to offer to went her a hotel room or even consider a 2 bedroom apartment - she lived an hour commute from downtown Kiev and I offered just to save her time.

I've read that the behavoir varies widely depending on the background of both the man and the woman.  I didn't push, other guys do.  On some boards, they go so far as to claim that if you don't have sex by the third date, the lady is not serious.

Me... I'm just going with what feels natural and comfortable.

Kevin C.

[Admin]

There has been a lot written on this topic.  When I made my first visit last December, I was under the impression that a lady would not go up to a man's apartment unless she was willing to have sex.  The lady I ended up dating made this clear on the second date.  We did visit my apartment twice, but both times with my female interpretor as a chaperone (once to look at Missouri picture books I brought with, once when I cooked dinner for the three of us).

I was also told flatly by a lady (still a friend) that it was inappropriate for me to offer to went her a hotel room or even consider a 2 bedroom apartment - she lived an hour commute from downtown Kiev and I offered just to save her time.

I've read that the behavoir varies widely depending on the background of both the man and the woman.  I didn't push, other guys do.  On some boards, they go so far as to claim that if you don't have sex by the third date, the lady is not serious.

Me... I'm just going with what feels natural and comfortable.

Kevin C.

Often we see guys coming onto the boards and asking categorical questions about the women of the FSU. "Do the girls in Russia like chocolate?" "If she won't take me home to meet the parents, does it mean she doesn't love me?"

Facts are, the women of the FSU number in the 10's or 100's of millions. There is just as much variability in FSU women as there is in American or European or Martian women. In other words, there is no possible way to categorize ALL RW as being one way, or another. There are a very few cultural differences that seem to be somewhat pervasive - language being the most obvious. But when it comes to questions around individual preference, such as the timing of sex, there is an enormous amount of difference based on the individual woman involved.

Specific examples - I have met absolutely stunning women whose photos would convince you they were, at least, pretty suggestive and likely pretty easy - and they turned out to be women who were chaste in their very early 20's. I have met some women who worked in some pretty racy places (Chicago Club in the late 90's, for those who know Kyiv), and they were not at all fast and loose - they were quite decent, in fact. And of course, there are some women who seem to have little moral integrity. The range is just all over the map, and it is impossible to categorize - though your poll idea is probably the best way to try to identify a 'trend' - provided you receive valid and truthful responses.

I guess all I am saying is - we all need to be cautious with accepting categorical comments such as the one you mentioned about a women not going to your apartment unless she wanted sex. If a guy were to act on that and it turned out to be inaccurate (and it is), he could find himself in some hot water pretty quickly.

FWIW

- Dan

[Goombah]

Actually, I'm very glad to hear the "going upstairs" rumor is not fact.  For me, there are many steps between a goodnight kiss and hopping into bed - most that would be best accomplished in the privacy of my apartment, but without the presumption that it ends in bed.

Thanks,

Kevin C.

[KenC]

A few more comments on this subject:

On my first trip to Russia, I arranged for a romantic dinner at my flat with Lena.  I pulled out all the stops too.  Candles, champaign, romantic music, good food blah blah blah.  I never expected sex nor did I even try.  In hindsite, I probably would have been shot down even if I did try.  I for one did not want sex to cloud my judgement at an early stage in our relationship.  Please do not think I am a Puritain because I have had plenty of first date sex before.  I just did not think it was proper to push the envelope at that time.  I also would never marry a woman before knowing that we were sexually compatable.  What did happen that night of our dinner, is that Lena and I became very close as we opened our souls to each other without taking our clothes off.

The other observation I have is in regard to the over all sexual morals in Russia.  There seems to be a tremendous amount of competition amongst the RW for attention from men.  One can only speculate as to why (less men than women, few good men, or a shortage of men that can afford a woman).  Maybe because it is more acceptable to be sexy or the European morals are different than America's.  Never the less, the women there are usually more aggresive than AW.  I just think there is a more casual attitude about sex and sexuality there than here.  Two other factors that may also add to this are:  The women we meet are usually (significantly) younger than we would usually date here and that in this process, everything seems to compacted into a much shorter time frame.  Both add to the quickness in moving forward in a relationship.

KenC

[KenC]

I would like to ask a question on this subject.  Is there any difference in sexual morals between the different former soviet countries?  Are Ukrainians more loose than Russians?  Are women from the "Stans" more conservative regarding sex?  How do the different former Republics compare?

[Admin]

I would like to ask a question on this subject. Is there any difference in sexual morals between the different former soviet countries? Are Ukrainians more loose than Russians? Are women from the "Stans" more conservative regarding sex? How do the different former Republics compare?

Sheez Ken, I am not sure you could find a centroid of opinion about girls from any one country, let alone crossing country borders. For instance, we have the constant debate about city girls (presumably jaded) versus village girls (presumably bumpkins) - and that, in Ukraine alone. [I am intentionally oversimplifying]

Maybe - just maybe - there is some small difference owing to the increasing exposure to zealous religions as one moves closer to central Asia - but even that is probably not clear.

Anyway - we'll see what others have to say about it. Could be interesting.

- Dan

[KenC]

OK, Dan,

Let me simplfy this a bit.  I have always been told that Ukrainian girls were much easier then Russians.  Of course my source of information was Russian women.  LOL.  I have even heard a joke about how a man could expect to get sex from a Ukrainian girl on the first date.  Now, I do not have experience with UK girls and no one should speak about their wives.......but inquiring minds need to know.

KenC

[jb]

Ken,

I did an rather exhaustive study on this back in the 80's. The problem was; the communist doctrine of the times dictated that women be chaste.  It was preached from the seat of government in the Soviet Union, and reinforced with very close living conditions.  When families of 6 lived in 2 rooms, there was just no place for young people to "do" it, somebody else was always home.  There were no Notell Motels where a couple could just get a room. Young men didn't have a car with a back seat, and unwed mothers were society outcasts,  Prior to 1991, probably 99% of the girls getting married were virgins, it was the State approved lifestyle.

'sway it was throughout the USSR (CCCP) back in the bad old days.  

With the fall of the Sov's, things changed rapidly. If your lady-love grew up in Russia after 1991, she doesn't have the same social/sexual morals as a woman who matured during the reign of the CCCP.  With the break up of the USSR, individual governments and new social rules began to emerge, a sexual revolution occured that was very close to what happened in the USA during the 1960's.  With very little money, and nothing else to do, sex became a way to have fun. It was free entertainment for many of the young people.  In other parts of the FSU, there was deep resentment over religious beliefs that had been suppressed for close to 90 years.  In the southern countries, Islam was rediscovered and it's sexual taboos were reinvented.  
In Russia, a lot of people became lost, employment was a joke, money was scarce, men deserted families because they could no longer support them, shame was the order of the day.  However in the midst of all that confusion, the pillar of Russian culture stepped up to the plate, Russian Women, and they took over the family, they became the reliable, the one's who could be counted on in a crisis.

It should not be a surprise to learn that they became responsible for their own sexuality.

[KenC]

jb,

Thank you for sharing your um, er, "studies" with us!  LOL  (It was a hard job but.....)  But seriously, what you wrote makes sense.  My wife tells me of how some of her friends went a little crazy just like we did in the late 60's and 70's, while others were a little slow to pick up the pace.  As my Mother-in-law was a rather hard core Commie, she kept a rather tight grip on her only daughter.  (Think over bearing Catholic Mom here)  LOL.  Geeze, Lena was 16 before she found out she couldn't get preggers from kissing!  LOL.

KenC

[jb]

Ken,

Thanks,,,

I was doing some post-grad work at the time, with the cold war being a "hot" topic, it made for a good/easy grade subject.

Your Lena's mom would have been a "good" Russian mother in her day, that's the way she was educated.  Lena turned out to be the product of her family, so it wasn't a waste.  Trust me, my Russian babushka is very much like your mom-in-law, my wife is very straight-laced on the subject of who-diddles-who.

I suggest you light a candle in honor of Russian moms and Grannies when you next get a chance.

[Admin]

OK, Dan,

Let me simplfy this a bit. I have always been told that Ukrainian girls were much easier then Russians. Of course my source of information was Russian women. LOL. I have even heard a joke about how a man could expect to get sex from a Ukrainian girl on the first date. Now, I do not have experience with UK girls and no one should speak about their wives.......but inquiring minds need to know.

KenC

Yes, and there are also jokes in Ukraine (and presumably Russia) about the Azerbajanis and Georgians giving over their daughters and wives to travellers.

Some have speculated that economic conditions plays a part in moral turpitude - as I've heard folks from Russia claim there are more prostitutes in Ukraine, many plying their trade in Russia. But if it were driven purely by economics, one would expect Belarusians to dominate.

Some of it could be the perspective long-held by the Russians that Ukraine is merely a country of peasant farmers - not entirely untrue. However, the seedbed of Russian nobility was the Kyivan Rus, so the argument doesn't carry too far.

I think it is more a matter of not having any hard statistics, in combination with people feeling some homogeneity wanting to brand others as less than they are.

We, here in America, do some of that as well. Just look at the prevailing attitude toward Mexicans. I don't consider it particularly well-balanced or accurate.

In fact, this seems to be sort of a common occurrence world-wide. I recall living in Germany and the Turks and Spaniards were all considered 'less' than folks of German origin. In Indonesia, the Javanese considered most of the remote island inhabitants (like Banda Aceh) as lesser in some way. I guess this is just a form of human nature - but I don't think we will be able to find any solid truths about the claims.

Just FWIW.

- Dan

[Bruno]

When i have meet Galina, we have share a appartment with one bedroom... she have propose to share the bed the first night without thinking herself about sex...

I have choice to sleep on the sofa because i was thinking about sex... it was not possible for me to sleep in the same bed that a woman i like without some action...

After the first week, she have come herself to the sofa :-))) ...

With my previous wife, a russian, it was enough fast ( around 2 hours after her arrival )... once at home, she have remove her clothes and spring on me... and she have a lot of experience... result of this, i have loose my mind, marry her and she have divorce the same day she have receive her Belgium nationality...

Be carefull with woman who spring on you the first night... they are beautiful and know that a man loose her mind before a young beautiful naked body... give the time that all come from natural way... other DANGER...


For people who understand russian language or maybe use website translator ( russian article about sex ) : http://wwwomen.ru/p.php/9/

[BC]

Bruno,

Wisdom pure..  Good post.

(edit) On second thought excellent post!

[Jack]

Ken, from a well known source I know, their was very little, if any, sexual differences between Russian and Ukraine women. Ukraine women say Russian women are easy. Russian women say Ukraine women are easy. Russian and Ukraine women say Belarus women are easy. All other women are easy except women from her country.

From this same source he experienced that if a Russian, or Ukraine woman was really interested in a man they might become intimate by the 3rd or 4th date. 

 

[Oatmeal]

Just ask a good ole southern boy what he thinks of a yankee....then ask a die hard yankee what he thinks of southern folk.....Do their respective stories hold true.

In their limited minds and experiences...they might, but I would by no means consider their opinions in any way reality.

People will usually have a particular bent towards their own kind/culture and demean things outside their comfort zone or understanding.

[Oatmeal]

Generally I would have to respond that it totally depends upon the lady you are with.  I would like to add that my wife tells me that it is ingrained in their culture that a good girl won't have sex or show other signs of sexual intimacy because she may think that the man will believe her to be slutty and will have sex with her and never call again. 

I must admit that I had an experience with a gal in Kiev once where I had moved in with her and her daughter and forgone anymore dating during that trip.  I was really confused because after spending 3 days with her she was still a bit standoffish.  It is only in retrospect that she was probably doing that because she was afraid that I would think her a whore and not marriage material.  She was really upset and crying when I decided to leave and I was also very upset and confused by her reaction. 

I believe now that she felt she was making the right moves by denying me any close physical interaction.  I believe that she was very interested in me but was just holding back.

I have also met other girls who had virtually no inhibitions.  Go figure.

[Albert]

I posted a long story about sex with FSU women on another thread.  So those interested can go read there for my background.

To answer one question posted in this thread, there is absolutely no difference between women in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belaurus, Russia and Ukraine concerning how quickly they will have sex.

But there is a difference between these women and AW.  Takes much more time for AW to come around.

[jb]

albert,

Takes much more time for AW to come around.

Surely you jest, the last three AW I met invited me into their homes after the 1st date, as they handed me a drink with one hand they were unzipping my jeans with the other.:cool::cool:

[BC]

Doesn't take me long either.. once they see that bulge in my sock

[jb]

I suppose there's a point to all this bs about sex, although I don't see it.  I've seen dozens of threads on other boards extolling the sexuality of Eastern European women (we have two threads on the subject here) and nothing ever gets decided one way or the other.  It matters not which society a man and woman are from, it only matters that they are creatures of the same species.  Males and females of the same species can figure out a way to overcome virtually all difficulties if they want sex bad enough, I've even heard of German Shepards siring puppies with a toy poodle.

When I was young and stupid I loved British sports cars, back then a XKE-150 Jag was a babe magnet, trying to get laid in one was an act of total insanity, but we did it.  I see men concerned about issues that are complete non-issues.  Trust me on this, if two people love each other, they will be sexually compatible.  While it's a lot of fun, there's really no need to think about pre-marriage sex as a requirement to discover compatibility between a man and a woman.  

Men who discuss these things endlessly are either not getting it very often, or have had a guilt trip or two laid on them by some woman who didn't care for them.  Believe me, I've been there, done that.  I divorced my first wife on the grounds that she was a "hobosexual", the judge asked if I didn't mean "homosexual", I said, "no, your honor, she really is a bumfuck."  The real reason is she had found someone else and every time we had sex she felt she was cheating on her new boyfriend.  Sexual compatibility went out the window when love ended.  

Let's also define some terms, many men think that a slut and a hooker are the same thing; but they're not.  A hooker is a someone who will have sex for money, a slut is someone who simply likes sex and will have sex with mulitple partners, (this decribes most men I know), mostly this is looked down on in many cultures.  I will freely admit that in my mis-spent youth, I was a slut, I liked it, I slept with lots of women.  

Do you understand the difference?  Men can wear that shoe as well as women who like sex.

If you marry a woman who really loves you, there will be no sexual compatibility problems.  If you marry the first Russian woman who gives you the time of day and you come back complaining that your RW doesn't like sex, believe me, it has nothing to do with her sexuallity, whether she likes sex or not, she just doesn't like sex with you.  In short, she doesn't love you.

Just my 2 cents.