Moscow round 2

[GoodOlBoy]

I understand you truly believe your situation is different because you are "different".  You are deluding yourself. The artistic colors of the palette might vary, but the portrait is the same. This lady:

A) Is not really into you
B) Is not ready for marriage
C) Does not even come close to fitting with you.  Almost every detail you write indicates that you are not happy with exactly the way she is, but want to "teach" her to understand that she must be different (e.g., relax, love nature)

This lady:

A) Is not really into you....Completely Agree.

B) Is not ready for marriage......Completely Agree.

C) Does not even come close to fitting with you.........The verdict is still out on this one. We will see after their "expedition" to Angkor Wat, Cambodia. 

BTW.... If you are serious about going to Cambodia Sculpto, give my regards to the Khmer Rouge. I am sure there is still a few factions of Pol Pots' murderous band of animals around.  :evil:


GOB

[Gator]

Sorry I can't be a cheerleader on this one, but there are plenty of others who will blow smoke up your popka and tell you what you wish to hear.

You may have seen it as cheering.  I saw it as uncritical blabbering from the bewildered and astonished.  At least count me in the latter group.

I don’t think we should try to place a round peg in a square hole.  Sculpto and his woman are different in many ways from the mainstream of AM and RW.  I just hope he takes his time and shows a lot of patience to see if his relationship blossoms into what he really wants with no serious doubts.

Sculpto, speaking of doubts, can you please elaborate regarding what happens with regard to PDA.  You mention it in passing without details.  I ask because everyone is different. 

You seem very passionate so I assume you are an outwardly affectionate person and enjoy touching in public.  If so, when you put your arm around her in public or touch her shoulder, does she immediately get tense or pull away?  Or does she simply not reciprocate?  If she pulls away, it would suggest that not only is she not into you, she is ashamed to be with you. 

Does she take you to a lot of public places (or does she only want to sit in a room and get drunk)?

When alone (or with a friend) I assume there are times when something sweet is said between the two of you and you reach out to just touch her, without the intent of foreplay (e. g., look into her eyes and gently slide your hand between her hair and cheek).   Does she continue to look at you?  What else does she do?

When walking together on the street, do you hold your elbow out and she then places her hand inside it?  Such is standard in Russia among proper, refined women.  I assume she does that.  If so, does she hang her hand and arm like a dead fish or does she grab the inside of your elbow with enough conviction to suggest that you are her man and she does not want to let go as you lead her.

[Gator]

Regarding Cambodia, I would suggest that you also see Laos.  I was there two years ago in the north and found it infinitely more interesting.  As an example, the mountain tribe kids in Laos would shy away from me rather than swarm around me to beg.  And you see no prostitutes in Laos unlike the sleaze of Thailand (the police will arrest women who approach foreigners). 

[groovlstk]

I don’t think we should try to place a round peg in a square hole.  Sculpto and his woman are different in many ways from the mainstream of AM and RW.  I just hope he takes his time and shows a lot of patience to see if his relationship blossoms into what he really wants with no serious doubts.

What exactly is it about Sculpto's GF that puts her out of the mainstream? I certainly haven't read anything that tells me she's even slightly different than many RW I've met, outside of the small character quirks and idiosyncrasies that make us all individuals.

All of her moody and irrational behavior can be traced to GOB's post above. A woman who is indifferent to a foreign suitor but is "trapped"* in a serious relationship will behave this way. I wish I could say I don't know this by personal experience, but I do.

I don't see anything different here - just another guy desperately clinging to a failed relationship, poo-pooing common sense by deluding himself into thinking his situation is "different."

*By "trapped" I mean that for some compelling reason other than love she is keeping him on the back burner, most likely because he represents a lifeline to a future with less misery. The most heinous part about RW like her is that she will have no qualms about stringing him out for years or more, until she decides what she wants. And if she chooses to remain in Russia she'll cut him out of her life in a moment. More than one western man has come here flabbergasted a RW will casually steal years of his life and lose not a moment's sleep.

[Misha]

A woman who is indifferent to a foreign suitor but is "trapped"* in a serious relationship will behave this way. I wish I could say I don't know this by personal experience, but I do.

Pretty much my experience as well. Was smitten by one woman, who treated me like cr*p. The problem is that she was not into me. Then, I met my wife, and I understood the difference  Sadly, Sculpto looks determined to learn it the hard way 

[Sculpto]

I don't really understand what you mean by "unmotivated" in this context Sculpto. Can you explain a little what sort of "motivations" she was talking about? Was she talking about your ambitions or something else?

Its a bit hard to explain I think.. but basically she couldn't sit still.. had to be cleaning or cooking or coming or going all the time.. I did not have the desire to rush around all the time nor did i have a compelling need to sweep underneath the bookcase like she did.  At the beginning of the week she wanted to cook three times a day which I did not feel was needed.  Plus, she would not let me cook at all at first, though, later on she relaxed about this and we had a long talk about it.  I asked her why she felt she needed to cook all the time.. her response.. "it is woman thing. woman must to cook for man".  I told her that it was ridiculous because I have been cooking for myself all my life and I am not looking for a house keeper.. if she WANTS to cook because it makes her happy that is one thing, but, she has no obligation to cook.  That got her to relax about it.

Well, my fiancée disagrees strongly with the above. She says that it's not true generally especially in your girlfriends age group and particularly when among friends in a private apartment. Yes, maybe some wouldn't be much into PDA among total strangers in a café somewhere but even that is quite common these days with younger people. Maybe those with Armenian backgrounds differ? Did all her friends have this background?

I will answer this in another post.

[Sculpto]

RED FLAG Sculpto.

When a woman doesn't want to be near you with her friends around and doesn't want you to visit her hometown (after how many trips to Russia now?) something is wrong!!!

I asked my wife about this girl not wanting to sit next to you (when she is around her friends) nonsense and Marina said "Something wrong Rick".

My wife is a VERY traditional Siberian woman and she never behaved like this when I stayed in Omsk for 3 months.

She ALWAYS let everyone around us know that I was there with HER and seemed to be proud of it.


GOB

OK, here is a little more detail about the scenario.. check with your wife and see what is her opinion..

When this incident occured we had been drinking a bit of whiskey.. I was feeling fine, but, then they opened a bottle of champgne.  It went straight to my head.  When I asked her to come sit with me on the couch I was kind of loud and demanding and I think I got flushed when I got the "look".  A little while later when we were alone before the other friends arrived she asked me not to drink more because she didn't want me drunk.  She did sit with me later.

Also, as I said before, when it was just "M" around she had no problem at all showing affection, but, when it was a larger group and one of the people there was a professional client she was more discreet.

[Sculpto]

Yes, I did mean that 179 people have died climbing Mount Everest or roughly 10% of all who set out to climb the mountain. The point is simple. You wrote: "Frankly, you are not the kind of person that would make it to the top of Everest from what you just said and that is fine for you.." I am reminding you that climbing Mount Everest is a risky proposition even under the best of circumstances, and that if you do foolish things while climbing Mount Everest you are that much likelier to die. Now, if this woman is your Mount Everest, I am using your own metaphor to remind you that undertaking risky activities without thinking rationally may lead to your death, maybe not physical death, but perhaps emotional death.

Misha.. I was emotionally dead for several years before i met this woman.  She got me to feel again.

[Sculpto]

Absolutely true... without a doubt.  With the FSU ladies I have dated, all were not only very affectionate, and proud to be with me, but even a teeny bit more affectionate/possessive when their friends were near.  "You can look but he's MINE" kind of thing.  Not really more affectionate I guess. It's difficult to explain but easy to observe.

As I said ina previous post, I may have committed a faux pas by being a bit drunk loud and demanding.  On almost every other occasion with "M" or out in general public this was not the case.

IMO, another possible red flag is related.  She seems to want/have her friends present almost all the time, seemingly to avoid the alone/intimacy time.  All of the ladies I dated introduced me to their friends, and we hung out a little with everyone together, but they didn't want them hanging around much at all.  They all preferred our alone time.  This lady seems to always want her "friends/drinking buddies" around to deflect the alone time. IMO, that could be a significant piece of information.  It would be for me anyway. 

No that isn't true Dave.  We spent most of the time alone.  "M" came over twice alone, we had the party and the woman from Tomsk came over the one time.  When she had to go out for work she managed to keep her time away short and was never gone more than four hours, including the night she met with her Fathers friend.

[Sculpto]

SCULPTO,
The way she is now is the way she will be when you are married. From the brief glimpses you have shown us of the both of you, as a couple you don't mix well. So the question you must ask yourself in a completely detached way is this: "Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this behavior?" Leopards don't change their spots. It is unfair of you (and completley unrealistic) to even think things will change once you two are married.
Your decision, choose well because it isn't practice and the ramifications are real, serious and lasting.

I understand that completely Jolly.  I think something that people are missing here is very difficult to explain.  In my past relationships women have not been happy with me because I have always had a love greater than for them.. the love and obsession of an artist.  It has always come first.  I made a decision to find someone who I shared this with, whether she is an artist or has some other thing that she is obsessed with, because, the chances of me being understood by her should be greater.  The question is, that I must answer, is now that I have found someone who has somethign besides me to obsess about, can I deal with it and be happy in a relationship, or marriage, with someone who might put her career before her love for me.  I think I can, but, I don't really know for sure.

[Sculpto]

This lady:

A) Is not really into you....Completely Agree.

B) Is not ready for marriage......Completely Agree.

C) Does not even come close to fitting with you.........The verdict is still out on this one. We will see after their "expedition" to Angkor Wat, Cambodia. 

BTW.... If you are serious about going to Cambodia Sculpto, give my regards to the Khmer Rouge. I am sure there is still a few factions of Pol Pots' murderous band of animals around.  :evil:


GOB

GOB, she is the only one who knows if she is really into me or not.  What I do know is this...

No man has ever put up with her sheet before.  That is from her mouth.  She questioned me heavily and repeatedly on this topic.  Why when no other man will put up with her am I willing to do it?  Ultimately she is asking me the same question all of you are.  I am doing it because I see something in her that i want.  I am doing it because I see that this young woman will evolve and some of what makes her arratic now will be tempered with time.  I see that given the chance to live in a more positive and safe environment she should blossom into a great talent which I wish to have next to me.  So, despite some evidence to the contrary, I do in fact think she is "into me" because she is young, beautiful and smart and she simply doesn't need me but is continuing with the relationship.  I am the one who broke up with her when I was there and she is the one who made all the effort to fix the damage.

And finally GOB.. your comment about the Khmer Rouge is so ridiculously uninformed you just make me laugh.  Angor Wat is one of the most popular travel destinations in the world with millions of visitors every year.

[Misha]

I am doing it because I see that this young woman will evolve and some of what makes her arratic now will be tempered with time.  I see that given the chance to live in a more positive and safe environment she should blossom into a great talent which I wish to have next to me.  So, despite some evidence to the contrary, I do in fact think she is "into me" because she is young, beautiful and smart and she simply doesn't need me but is continuing with the relationship.  I am the one who broke up with her when I was there and she is the one who made all the effort to fix the damage.

Effort? She put on a short skirt, low cut blouse and fishnet stockings. That is not effort  :evil:

Sculpto, you seem like a nice guy, so I have this question for you. Let's presume she does not "evolve" and she does not "blossom," would you still want to be with her? It seems to me that you are infatuated with a 20-year-old that you will love if she becomes the woman you want her to be. Hardly the basis of a healthy relationship IMHO.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, speaking of doubts, can you please elaborate regarding what happens with regard to PDA.  You mention it in passing without details.  I ask because everyone is different. 

You seem very passionate so I assume you are an outwardly affectionate person and enjoy touching in public.  If so, when you put your arm around her in public or touch her shoulder, does she immediately get tense or pull away?  Or does she simply not reciprocate?  If she pulls away, it would suggest that not only is she not into you, she is ashamed to be with you. 

Does she take you to a lot of public places (or does she only want to sit in a room and get drunk)?

When alone (or with a friend) I assume there are times when something sweet is said between the two of you and you reach out to just touch her, without the intent of foreplay (e. g., look into her eyes and gently slide your hand between her hair and cheek).   Does she continue to look at you?  What else does she do?

When walking together on the street, do you hold your elbow out and she then places her hand inside it?  Such is standard in Russia among proper, refined women.  I assume she does that.  If so, does she hang her hand and arm like a dead fish or does she grab the inside of your elbow with enough conviction to suggest that you are her man and she does not want to let go as you lead her.

Gator.. thanks for your viewpoint.  I am honestly a little surprised given our past debates, but...

Anyway.. to answer your question.  The only time there was an issue about physical closeness was the incident I described at the apartment.  And, I probably should have mentioned the afterburn effect from the champagne when I first told the story.

Her hand is on my arm most of the time when we go out..sometimes we hold hands, fingers entwined.  When we went to the theater she played with my finger for the entire three hour performance. sometimes on the subway we would sit very close.. other times she wanted her space or was reading.. honestly I took to reading on the Metro also because with the noise it was too difficult to have a decent conversation.

In the apartment we danced slow dances.. had hugs.. and all the little tendernesses one would expect.  If I run my hand across her cheek she looks me right in the eye.. sometimes she blushes and gets a sad look on her face.

I am a lot more romantic than she is though.  She is a bit shy about romance and seems to appreciate various gestures I make.. but she does not often offer them.  She is critical of sentimental people in general.  She stated she is realist and doesn't in her life have time for sentimentality.  I brought her flowers for the 9th.. she wasn't interested at all.. she asked me to bring her a bottle of vodka next time instead of flowers. 

[Misha]

She stated she is realist and doesn't in her life have time for sentimentality.  I brought her flowers for the 9th.. she wasn't interested at all.. she asked me to bring her a bottle of vodka next time instead of flowers. 

 

[Sculpto]

Effort? She put on a short skirt, low cut blouse and fishnet stockings. That is not effort  :evil:

Sculpto, you seem like a nice guy, so I have this question for you. Let's presume she does not "evolve" and she does not "blossom," would you still want to be with her? It seems to me that you are infatuated with a 20-year-old that you will love if she becomes the woman you want her to be. Hardly the basis of a healthy relationship IMHO.

Misha.. she dressed up and we talked non stop that night for over five hours about specifics that she had been avoiding since i had arrived.  The conversation continued on later days.  When I was sick she put her own illness under wraps and went way over the top taking care of me.  Literally for three hours all she did was go back and forth into the kitchen heating up water and pouring it into the bucket where my feet were.  In my entire life no one ever took care of me when sick like she did, not even my Mom.  

I do not think it is fair to accuse me of merely having an infatuation.  If thats all it was I would have gone over there the first time, had my romp and moved on.  But there is something deeper for me and I believe for her also.  I mean seriously.. what is in it for her?  I am a lot older than she is.. I have no money to speak of nor do I own my home.. she would prefer to live in Russia and has only agreed to come to the USA because of me.. what angle is there to validate the accusations of lies on her part?  

What could she possibly benefit from being involved with me?  The risk for her is far greater as she is going to leave her country, culture, family and friends to come to a place she never had any interest in going in the first place.  When we were in the process of discussing everything and I confronted her with my doubts.. the doubts she generated by being cold to me those first days.. the doubts she created by giving me the "test".. she replied that she can easily find a Russian guy.. and a rich one.. but she doesnt care about those things.. she cares about me but she does nto want to "f" up her life because she only has one life to live.

[Sculpto]

LOL  Misha I puff on stinky green buds almost every day.. just did in fact with my friends that are here right now.. I don't see anything wrong with daily drinking in moderation.. I was there two weeks.. she got drunk once, with me.. drinking her under the table.. I think it was important to do that.. I just learned (and already knew) don't mix hard stuff and champagne.

[Misha]

I note that you did not answer my question. If she does not change, blossom, or grow, will you love her the way she is now?

[pitbull]

I understand that completely Jolly.  I think something that people are missing here is very difficult to explain.  In my past relationships women have not been happy with me because I have always had a love greater than for them.. the love and obsession of an artist.  It has always come first.  I made a decision to find someone who I shared this with, whether she is an artist or has some other thing that she is obsessed with, because, the chances of me being understood by her should be greater.  The question is, that I must answer, is now that I have found someone who has somethign besides me to obsess about, can I deal with it and be happy in a relationship, or marriage, with someone who might put her career before her love for me.  I think I can, but, I don't really know for sure.

Sculpto,

If what you've written above is true and her obsession with her career as a journalist is as strong and as attractive for you, you are in for a very difficult time when she comes to the US. Mind you, I am always the one to advocate a RW's ability for a fulfilling career in the US, but sorry, not in your GF's case. There is a one in a million chance she will be a journalist in the US, let alone a successful journalist. She simply doesn't have the language abilities, the general education (sorry, but the "Alchemist" is a "common place" for any half-educated teenager in Russia, let alone a journalist), or the knowledge or understanding of the American society. Make sure she undersyands this before she moves to SF with you.
 Again, if she will be happy with an "ebay vendor deal", this may work out. But in this case, what you have written in the above quote is not true.

[JR]

I understand that completely Jolly.  I think something that people are missing here is very difficult to explain.  In my past relationships women have not been happy with me because I have always had a love greater than for them.. the love and obsession of an artist.  It has always come first.  I made a decision to find someone who I shared this with, whether she is an artist or has some other thing that she is obsessed with, because, the chances of me being understood by her should be greater.  The question is, that I must answer, is now that I have found someone who has somethign besides me to obsess about, can I deal with it and be happy in a relationship, or marriage, with someone who might put her career before her love for me.  I think I can, but, I don't really know for sure.

SCULPTO,
You must accept her for who she is now, today with no changes nor any expectations of any future changes. If she changes (and I mean IF) it will be due to her interactions with her surroundings (of which you will be a part, and only a part) and she will do her own changing. If you try to force any change it will be met with resistance and resentment. I was married for ten plus years to a Russian woman and tried all the way to change her. I also hoped she would change herself into what I thought she should be. Neither happened. You cannot change anyone but yourself. It is wrong of you to expect any changes. She will be influenced by her new environment and there will be some changes. But she will steer her own ship. If you try to do it you'll walk her plank instead.
It seems as though you are trying to convince us all that you are right. All you really have to do is decide what anyone else thinks doesn't matter and do what you are determined to do. The signs are there (if you are conveying everything correctly, like not leaving out the drunk and loud part) you may ignore them if you must.
I had signs as big as roadside billboards but chose not to look in their direction for fear of seeing what I then must admit to. Namely that we were not right for each other.
I hope you find peace with your decisions.

[Ade]

When this incident occured we had been drinking a bit of whiskey.. I was feeling fine, but, then they opened a bottle of champgne.  It went straight to my head.  When I asked her to come sit with me on the couch I was kind of loud and demanding and I think I got flushed when I got the "look".  A little while later when we were alone before the other friends arrived she asked me not to drink more because she didn't want me drunk.  She did sit with me later.

Okay, so I can sort of understand why she wouldn't want to be sitting next to a drunk "grabby" guy when there are friends in the same room but what I don't understand is why they explained it with the lie, "For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests" and then, adding insult to injury, blame you for your ignorance by saying, "when you will to read about Russian culture?"

[Diplomacy]

I am with SJ.

Sculpto, I am glad that she breathed life into you again.  Maybe that was all she was meant to be, maybe you continue and there is more.

The relationship dynamic is unhealthy, but you can keep defending the position.  She does not like nature, and she is from Tomsk.  She grew up with nature pretty accessible.  It looks like a very pretty place to me, but I digress.

You are meeting once again away from Tomsk.  If you are tired of the travel, then you are cutting corners already.  2 trips got you worn down, and you still have not been to her city.

She agreed to a trip to Cambodia, what you want is a year plus roughing it.  A very big difference.  Two weeks, versus a lifestyle.

If she is so aware of what she is, and still continues.  I am not thinking you are going to tame the wild mustang. 

She will not be able to serve to masters, being career and your lifestyle.  As it appears now, you are 2nd fiddle.  You may always be that, but she is cruel. 

Taking your passport, was on purpose.  I had a good feeling, that she would be back.  Why does she have a client with her on Woman's Day?  Notice the party was on Woman's Day?  That the other Women were not worth the hassle for the any other Russian men?

I would take being numb, versus being inflicted with pain. 

She is acting like a selfish Deva IMO.  Yes, you are seeing some of the female attributes of RW.  I know most RW will care for a man, so your sticking point is cultural not love.

If anything, she shows lesser degrees of the attributes that attract you to her.

[GoodOlBoy]

The relationship dynamic is unhealthy, but you can keep defending the position.

Sculpto I know that you have A LOT of time, emotions and feelings invested in this relationship, BUT....you really deserve better.

You may always be that, but she is cruel...... 

I agree with Diplomacy, she is very cruel.

You fly THOUSANDS of miles Sculpto and this is how you expect to be treated?

When I flew to Omsk from Miami, my wife and her family treated me like ROYALTY.

Hell, her Father and Brother let me use their car's to drive my Marina around Omsk and out of town into the woods on picnics (I had my International Drivers License).

 

I would take being numb, versus being inflicted with pain. 

Me personally, I would not accept either of these scenarios. I wanted and found a decent relationship with a smart and beautiful RW who I respect and respect's me.

Sculpto, this girl has NO respect for you at all ! 

Taking your passport, was on purpose.  I had a good feeling, that she would be back. 

When I read this part of the saga, I knew she was being manipulative and controlling when she took Sculpto's passport by "accident". 

I forgot the member's name, but does the rest of the forum remember the poor guy who went to the Ukraine to meet a woman and she would lock him into his rented flat every night, keep the keys and then come back the next morning and let him out?

Sound familiar?

It is manipulation Sculpto, plain and simple.


GOB

[bobb]

...I am very comfortable that she is not an emotional or psycholigical child.

I had to go back and fill myself in on your past with this woman.  At least from the beginning.

Sculpto:  What has made you change your opinion to what you stated previously?  Is it rationalization, a change based on how you see her from your interactions, as opposed to how others see her from a more limited viewpoint, or...?

Granted, I have not met her and am only going by what you divulge.  In my eyes, much older than yours, I still see an emotional and/or psychological child in many ways from your descriptions of events.

Just curious.

[janic]

When I read this part of the saga, I knew she was being manipulative and controlling when she took Sculpto's passport by "accident". 

[...]It is manipulation Sculpto, plain and simple.

Sorry for speaking up:

Yes, I agree with you. Of course it was not an accident but pure and - yes - manipulative intend. But at the same time I would say that it fits her story very well and could also be interpreted in a different way. Could be that she wanted to bring him to his limits but at the same time make sure that he can't just turn his back and she would have at least some chance to explain or excuse herself....

[JR]

OK, time for some brutal honesty here. SCULPTO, you need to learn to love and respect yourself. Until you do that you will never have a healthy relationship.
The problem doesn't lie with this young woman. She is being true to who she is. The problem is with you. You are allowing yourself to be treated like a turd. If someone else described this to you you would tell them to dump her. That is why you are here. You don't need us to tell you that it is OK to be with her, you can do that all by yourself. You need us to tell you to lift your head up and walk away. We are telling you that but you aren't listening. Stop defending her actions. Detach yourself and look at this critically. What would you tell someone else to do in the same situation?
The mistake is yours to make. Make sure your eyes are open.

There is a great saying that I like very much: "Above all else guard your heart." There is nothing else in the world that can cause you more pain than your own broken heart.