How old is too young?

[Misha]

I can't see though why that would mean they 'struggle' with relationships?

Vinny, it is called a touch of sarcasm or should I say irony 

[GoodOlBoy]

I have no doubt that a 25 year old can easily find and catch a gorgeous 22 year old in the FSU... however I think there will be a wild ride ahead.

I agree Daveman.  

And I think it will look something like this:


GOB

[Vinnvinny]

Or ....

[Vinnvinny]

How many happily married men (not to FSUW) do you see that decry feminism and local women ?

No idea Shadow, I don't ask - not interested. I was quoting Misha.

Vinny, it is called a touch of sarcasm or should I say irony 

Thanks Misha .... I would never has guessed.     

[topofthekey]

No idea Shadow, I don't ask - not interested. I was quoting Misha.

I have a pretty good idea. None of them can be very happy if they do it.

Post your rollercoster pictures but I bet most of you have already fallen off the ride yourselves before so don't hate too much now. 

[Vinnvinny]

Here I agree with Misha, I see nothing wrong with younger men going to the FSU to find a partner, except that they could pose unfair competition to the older guys.  :evil:

It depends on who the older guy is. If he's overweight, poorly dressed smelly loser then I agree. If he's good looking, well dressed, charismatic and has a sexy English accent then there is overwhelming evidence to suggest you are wrong. 

[Daveman]

I have a pretty good idea. None of them can be very happy if they do it.

Post your rollercoster pictures but I bet most of you have already fallen off the ride yourselves before so don't hate too much now. 

Fallen off, jumped off, refused to get on.. we all have, otherwise we'd all still be married to the childhood/high school sweetheart.

Those photos do humorously depict what we encounter in relations (or life). The trick is learning which rides to bypass.  Unfortunately, that knowledge only comes from personal experience most of which being not so good.

I would give a healthy "go for it" if you are planning to date, visit, etc.. but with a failing marriage, you get stuck with the 10 year financial support at the minimum of problems.  You both will grow, and at this age, the growth patterns are more sporadic.  Hopefully you will find a lady who will grow in the same direction, whose priorities will shift in the same direction, etc etc... not impossible, but not an easy task either. As others have said, there's no need to rush anything.  Take your time with it.

[Diplomacy]

It is an interesting thread.  I do not even find any faulty logic, Kuna.  I would say 28 yo WM and older than 26 FSUW is a real good starting point. 

Top, I think you are in good shape.  I do not even see much of an issue, with your age.  Especially with the time frame you stated.  Just get to the 25 range, and pick from there. 

I got to say, what you state about the younger men.  Same stands true on a lot of the older men that head to the FSU. We have all seen and heard stories about traveling to the FSU.

A 28yo WM that has a good job, character, decent looks, can dress well,understands women, and knows how to have a successful relationship.  He is going to have a lot of women, to choose from in the FSU.  Laws of attraction, go to the younger man.  Life sucks where a helmet.  The issue really is, that there are not nearly as many younger men in that category, seriously looking at the FSU.

So it is not a realistic option, for pragmatic women.  I think you older men are safe, just be careful on the hips! OK?

 I know a few men in the technology industry, that were sent to the FSU by their companies.

A few of them are married to FSUW, and are happy.  They appear to have good relationships. 

I understand the 45 plus yo version of what brought you to the FSU.  I just think it is interesting that one agenda becomes better than another.  Many of the 45yo men are still talking a failed marriage, younger woman, and sometimes to have more children.

I had the childhood of the 2 weekends a month Dad.  It is not the same, for whatever the reason behind the divorce is. 

I saw a real bad marriage.  Knew what I did not want, and what a good marriage was like.  I guess what I am saying, the finances were not the only thing that were out of control over the last two decades.  The family values were eroding, and some of us paid that price as children. 

Now, as the latch key children are become parents.  There is a lot of thought amongst my friends, to find a happy balance.  Family, work, and hobbies are all equal.  I can not speak of the 22yo, that has grown up the same way.  I can not even speak for the collective of 30yos.

I found that dynamic true with FSU people my own age.  Men and women that grew up with no father in the picture.  I found many of them, looking to make sure that they were involved and holding off marriage.

Children are growing up must faster now, they need to.

[Caddydaddy]

Out of my own experience I would say most women under age of 25 are too young. And also out of my own experience I tend to say a big age difference in younger years is problematic. My Ex was 23 and I was 29 as we decided to marry. Only six years difference, seems not that much, but in reality it was. I often could notice like she was a generation behind me. She as young wife was still developing herself, I already was somewhat established. This basic scheme went through our whole time together and ended after a - way to long - time in failure. Of course it can work out for others but this point is a risk in a partnership. I would say nowadays 25 years up with a certain "life development" is ok, in younger years a big age gap may not be of advantage, later it may come closer.

If I compare it with my new Baby, we only have 5 months age difference. Even thought she is a true SU child, cultural question maybe, we live in the same world of experience of life and development of personality.
Well, even thought we can detect same wrinkles in our faces I am not sure if we both are that *old*, it rather seems we have an age something between 19 and 21, just much wiser 

[SANDRO43]

My Ex was 23 and I was 29 as we decided to marry. Only six years difference, seems not that much, but in reality it was. I often could notice like she was a generation behind me. She as young wife was still developing herself, I already was somewhat established. This basic scheme went through our whole time together and ended after a - way to long - time in failure.

Caddydaddy, your experience matches mine almost literally - our ages were 20 and 26, a generation apart percentage-wise .

[Turboguy]

I just have a hard time agreeing with what I usually read on topics like this.   Let me start with this question.   If the optimal age for people to marry is in the late 20's and early 30's why are divorces every bit as common or even more so than when women would graduate from high school and marry their HS sweetheart.

Being the old fogey of RWD when I graduated from school the norm was what I said in the last paragraph.  Women tended to marry their high school sweetheart.  One of the things I have noticed was it was usually the person who sat near them.  When I look at the marriages the maiden name and married name are very close alphabetically.  So goes the theory of one special person in the world because the odds of them sitting in the seat near you in school would be really low.  Of the ones in my graduating class almost none ever got divorced.

Personally I think the differences in people outweight the age someone happens to be.  I think there are people who are ready to settle down and get married at 21 and those who are not ready at 30.   I think if someone is not ready to settle down either they know it or the other partner can sense it.   My wife tells me at that age she was not ready to settle down and get married but I think she knew that.   When she decided it was time she started to look for that.  I think a woman under 25 who thinks she wants to get married and acts pretty settled is someone who probably would be a good candidate, particularly for a guy in his late 20's who also feels it is time to settle down.  

I am a little surprised by CaddyDaddy's comment about his first marriage.  29 & 23 does not strike me as being a generation apart.  When I was in my mid and late forties and dating 21 year olds I never noticed a generation gap.  Personally I think most are happier with someone closer to their age and I am not advocating age gaps I am just saying that the one comment seems unusual to me.

My first wife was 15 and I was 19 when we met.   We were not the right people for each other but the age differnce was never a factor.  She was more than ready to settle down into married life.  We were not the right people for each other and I would have been smarter to do what was mentioned here, wait for a long, long time and grow up a little but the ages in and of itself were never a factor.   

As far as a guy in his mid to late 20's looking for a wife in the FSU I don't see a problem with it.  Some, like Kuna are lucky and meet their dream girl on their first trip.  Some seem to take years to find the right one and a few like me take forever.  Starting then will give him a chance to take his time and find someone really special.  He should have a lot of fun and be exposed to a fascinating culture that will be a wonderful experience.  

[Daveman]

Well TG, IMO and only MO,

Age is only one factor of many. The divorce rates are so high among all ages because firstly, people marry a wrong person for them based on criteria (such as looks, sex, etc.) which are not conducive to long term day to day living without the other important aspects of compatibility.  They attempt to put compromise band aids on the incompatibilities they discover over time and just wind up covered in glue but still without a natural cohesion. 

People meet each other mostly by chance encounters in this world without really getting down to the nitty gritty of intelligent decision making.  Of course, there must be an emotional drive and attachment, but we waste years being emotionally attached to someone who doesn't fit with us.  The differences cause growth in separate directions and eventually pull us apart to divorce, or worse, living life as more of a habit of apathy.  I think a more intellectual search for similarities in all aspects of life will lead to a longer lasting emotional bond and same direction growth. 

The divorce rates are so high because of that "chance encounter lottery system" of choosing a partner.   Some get lucky with it, but most don't.  Many of those who remain married admit that they are in a stale and loveless marriage, so technically the divorce rates should be as high as 70-80%. 

"A good man" or "a good woman" just isn't enough.. 

Age factors into the equation simply because there is more internal growth at a younger age and thus an even larger chance of growing in different and separate directions.

That initial emotional high wears off and what you have left is two naked souls staring at each other, gazing at all the incompatibilities they were too drunk to acknowledge before. Those who fit together (on many levels) stay together.

Thus concludeth Daveman's Theory of Relativity.

[Turboguy]

Dave, It might be only your opinion but I think there was a lot of truth in your post.   I think one of the risks that is particularly a part of the AM-RW marriages is that the women are very pretty and usually built well and it is easy to confuse lust and love.   I really don't think I did that in my current marriage but I have to say it was a big factor in my first marriage.  For the second go round I made sure that I fell in love with someone whose company I enjoyed and who I really like and respect as a person.   Nice post Dave

[Faux Pas]

My two cents worth:

What I see with TOP is a much different dynamic than the majority of members here. The majority of us are late 30's+ on up. Given that age, most of us consider early 30's on up as an acceptable age. These ladies would be too old for the young whipper snappers such as TOP. Our experience wouldn't apply to TOP's situation. Quite honestly guys everything is different than when we were in our 20's (for the most of us). It is difficult to draw on experience learned by us in our 20's and apply it to TOP. Much of it is completely irrelevant.

Personally I think the younger girls today are too immature for marriage no matter the country. However, I didn't think that when I was 20-25, quite the opposite. When I was that age I didn't have opportunities for FSUW and wouldn't pursued them if I had.

TOP may very well find him a 21 yr old serious lady to marry and she marries for all the right reasons. I really don't see how the majority of us could judge that  IMO

[ScottinCrimea]

TG, you can't possibly believe that your experiences some 45+ years ago could have any relevance to the situation now.

[Misha]

Here I agree with Misha, I see nothing wrong with younger men going to the FSU to find a partner, except that they could pose unfair competition to the older guys.  :evil:

Doesn't happen very often does it that we agree  :evil:

In many ways, TOP is at a distinct advantage. Though the older guys may not want to acknowledge it, if he finds a woman in her early 20s, he will at least be falling into social norms. She will be marrying a man close in age to a man she married in Russia. Also, the expectations would be different I wager. She would expect that they would be more of a "typical" young couple that will have to make sacrifices together and work together to achieve common goals. She would be marrying a man (presumably) for love and attractioon, or at least there would be fewer doubts as to her intentions.

Also, odds are that TOP's friends are close in age to TOP, and it will be easier for any future wife to fit in TOP's world. The fact of the matter is that my friends, acquaintances, colleagues tend to be 10 years or older than me and I am 10 years older than my wife, which creates a much larger gap. Even though my friends have accepted my wife, it does not change the fact that many are grandparents and are at a different stage in their lives.

A girl of 20-24 has some learning to do and so has a guy of 25-30. In the worst case they can find out after 5 years its not working, and be of the right age and mind to join in here again.

Exactly. Fewer biological clocks would be ticking and there would be more time for both to settle into the relationship.

The good thing about young age is that there is no hurry to get married and make a family until things are clear. Use that to make the exploration time a bit longer and meet in different places if possible.

Which is why I suggested that TOP take his time and not rush things. Learn some of the language, get to know the culture, meet many Russians and not simply for dating, and develop a more normal [or something closer to it] relationship.

[2tallbill]

In my opinion Men should wait until they are 30 and women until they are
25. Nobody that age would listen to me or anyone else so I guess it's
kinda academic.

I just pulled a few stats from wikipedia as well. The average age for a female from Ukraine to get married is 22.2 years of age.

I was in Odessa on my first trip to the FSU approximately 4 years ago. I was with a
very attractive RW and we were walking past a park near the Opera house and there
were maybe a dozen different marriage parties getting photos taken. I commented on how your they were and the RW with me said "oh yes, they all get
married here and then two years later get divorced."

It's a little like what I say to my high school son much to his annoyance. "Just because
everyone else does it doesn't mean you should" (to him not to topOKey)

[topofthekey]

In my opinion Men should wait until they are 30 and women until they are
25. Nobody that age would listen to me or anyone else so I guess it's
kinda academic.

When you alienate an entire age group should you have a reasonable expectation that they listen? Or maybe they do listen but have a dissenting opinion? Aren't 25,26,27,28, and 29 year old men at an age to decide what is best for them? That doesn't mean they will get it right, but could they do any worse than the majority of their older peers who are looking at their 2nd and possibly even 3rd marriage?

I suspect I could track down some statistics that don't look fondly on marriage with what is socially considered a large age gap. Yet I'm not suggesting that men and women should only get married if they are within 5 years of age. So I have to wonder if giving aged based advice that draws a line in the sand on an age level requirement alone (and not based on any other factors) might be considered condescending to those adults in that age group?

We haven't really discussed my education level. We haven't had much discussion on my financial situation. We haven't discussed my maturity, experience with relationships, and many other factors. Let's say I was 25, had a graduate degree, several past relationships, and the ability to afford to make the committment (with no debt). Now we won't name anyone in particular. But why not compare me to someone who might not have developed social skills with the opposite sex (the 40 year old virgin for example  ), has a debt load, and someone who lives by the Toys R Us theme song. Does your magic age rule still apply?

My personal opinion is not that many young guys have even put any thought into meeting women overseas (say in a place like Estonia). Sadly most of the guys (thanks to those great public schools) probably couldn't even point to Estonia on a map (let alone name the Capitol or know what FSU stands for). So why try and develop some age rule that would suggest anyone under 30 should not get married (or seek long term relationships) while any degenerate clown over 29 is more than welcome to hit a drive thru in Vegas? Seems kinda silly to me, but then again I am 25.

[Misha]

TOP, I agree with you. Just as long as you know what you are getting into, are doing it for the right reasons (love, having found a perfect or close-to-perfect match), then I don't see why a 25-year-old would be any more likely to fail than a 40-year-old.

[GoodOlBoy]

In my opinion Men should wait until they are 30 and women until they are
25. Nobody that age would listen to me or anyone else so I guess it's
kinda academic.

It's a hard sell 2TallBill, But....You are correct. 

That doesn't mean they will get it right, but could they do any worse than the majority of their older peers who are looking at their 2nd and possibly even 3rd marriage?

I would guess that anyone on their 2nd or 3rd marriage was married way under 30 for the first time. 

Which just reinforces what 2TallBill was saying above.

As far as FSU women go, as a whole, University "schoolgirls" (19-24) are not good marriage material and I would also strongly suggest not to marry an uneducated FSU woman (just my opinion).


GOB

[2tallbill]

When you alienate an entire age group should you have a reasonable expectation that they listen? Or maybe they do listen but have a dissenting opinion? Aren't 25,26,27,28, and 29 year old men at an age to decide what is best for them? That doesn't mean they will get it right, but could they do any worse than the majority of their older peers who are looking at their 2nd and possibly even 3rd marriage?

Legally men those ages can do anything they please. I would be against any law
saying otherwise. I am giving my opinion about what I think is best for most men
that age.

I used to be 25 - 29 and nobody got away with telling me what I
could do or couldn't do back then. My opinion is just that, my opinion.

Many men under 30 and many women under 25 don't have the life experiences
and maturity yet to be married for life. I certainly don't think that they
should make a law restricting marriage to specified age groups. My father
had 3 kids and a divorce by the time he was 30.

[topofthekey]

It's a hard sell 2TallBill, But....You are correct. 

I would guess that anyone on their 2nd or 3rd marriage was married way under 30 for the first time. 

You do think at the very least 2nd marriages are quite common yes? Statistically they are. Men on their 2nd and 3rd marriage are likely well past thirty. So wouldn't it be safe that pointing to a young age isn't the key cause in all these failures?

[topofthekey]

I used to be 25 - 29 and nobody got away with telling me what I
could do or couldn't do back then. My opinion is just that, my opinion.

Granted it is your opinion. I just don't think it is anymore reasonable for me to proclaim that men should not marry women not within a 5 year range of them than it is to tell men 25-29 not to seek a long term relationship. It doesn't deal with any real factors. Just a nominal range.  I likely would be hounded for making that statement on this message board because that is the demographic. Imagine making your statement (or stating your opinion) on a message board of single men age 25-29. Then telling those men that on top of that they have the inability to listen and accept the advice. That seems no more valid than me telling this message board that men should not seek women outside of that 5 year range. And of course any men that do are just not capable of listening because older men lust for young women.

[GoodOlBoy]

You do think at the very least 2nd marriages are quite common yes? Statistically they are. Men on their 2nd and 3rd marriage are likely well past thirty. So wouldn't it be safe that pointing to a young age isn't the key cause in all these failures?

TOP, I am not addressing you directly, OK?

So please don't be offended.

I am just offering an opinion and GOB always says: "Opinions are like as*holes, everybody has one".  

Young men in their late teen's and into their 20's are immature and impulsive.

FSU women "schoolgirls" (19-24) are the same.

I think.... 1+1= DISASTER

GOB

[topofthekey]

TOP, I am not addressing you directly, OK?

So please don't be offended.

Young men in their late teen's and into their 20's are immature and impulsive.

Its not that I'm offended as I'm really wondering why opinions aren't being backed up. I mean I could say I believe in the tooth fairy. It is an opinion. To lump 25,26,27,28, and 29 year old males in with teens is just very questionable to me. A 20 something year old professional or possibly even a college professor is much different than an 18 year old guy at the homecoming dance.

Men in their 20s are immature and impulsive. Could a 27 year old professional take offense? Maybe.

Old men are all preverted and lust for young women. All of them would leave their wives if someone younger would actually be interested in them. Offensive? Maybe.

Both could be considered ageism as blanket statements.