How old is too young?

[OlgaH]

You've read something in my words that was never there - as you always do for some reason.

Wienerin,

I read what you have written.   On your own example, that took place in your life 40 years ago, you made your general statement.

So for a girl to marry young is mostly a loss, a stunted growth. IMHO, of course.

Wienerin,

It all depends on a young woman, and I simply gave my own example. In my 20s I enjoyed raising my son, studying at the Academy , working and having social activities including traveling, and I don't regret and I don't consider that time as a loss and a stunted growth.

[Wienerin]

That is exactly what I noticed comparing the pictures. The guy who makes the outfit for the Iowa team should be fired.
Give the Iowa girls the same tools and preparation of the Estonian, and they will be much closer in comparison.

I'm at a complete loss here. I'm not an expert on how the rural Iowan girls look, but would hardly take them to be representatives of all Midwestern women. What I've seen in my 14 years here in Chicagoland and Wisconsin doesn't provide grounds for disparaging "Midwestern gals" when compared to anyone. I see a lot of healthy, well-toned, well-groomed and elegant women everywhere. Even if not all of them saunter around in stretch lurex and high heels

As to Estonia - it was a sort of suburb for StPetersburg, ... but with a twist, Estonia being our "little window to Europe" - with more relaxed way of life, more and better consumer goods, glimses of modern art and literature, etc. And overnight (6-7 hrs.) train or bus ride from us to Tallinn. Never ever were Estonians considered handsome people, I'm sorry to say. I'm a quarter Estonian myself, mind

Tall, - yes. But large boned, with big hands and feet and somewhat rough features with their mix of Baltic and Finno-Ugrish blood and city girls going for Scandinavian casual style mostly - subdued, sensible sports clothes. No clinging short skirts or high heel (on Tallinn stone-paved Mediaeval streets? You must be kidding!)

Also one from Iowa visiting a hog farm in Estonia in search of long-stemmed slender beauties might be in for a big (and I mean BIG!) surprise ...

I've been to Iowa only once - to the university campus where my friends were as post-doc students. Friends from Tartu, Estonia. THey said that as far as people go -they could be in Estonia. Go figure. They should know, I suppose. Maybe Farmers Fair isn't the best place to look for a bride, - unless you're a farmer yourself, huh?  

[Wienerin]

Wienerin,

I read what you have written.  On your own example, that took place in your life 40 years ago, you made your general statement.

Again? you've read something different from what I wrote. And I do not go into "statements" - I have my experience, which shped my views of course. And my experience doesn't and 40 yers ago

Wienerin,

It's all depends on a young woman, and I simply gave my own example. In my 20s I enjoyed raising my son, studying at the Academy , working and having social activities including traveling, and I don't regret and I don't consider that time as a loss and a stunted growth.

No it doesn't all depend on the young woman. Much depends on what ambitions and what kind of career was chosen, how competitive and cowded is this chosen field, etc. Also it depends on time and place. And other circumstances. It so happens, that most women of my acquaintance - 40, 30, ... and so on years ago, including now - my daughters in law, and other younger realtives and friends, are of my opinion.

So there's nothing to argue about, - nobody (I dearly hope) is trying to drive in one's point. As no one can expect one's point and opinion to be universal truth.


[/quote]

[topofthekey]

I'm at a complete loss here. I'm not an expert on how the rural Iowan girls look, but would hardly take them to be representatives of all Midwestern women. What I've seen in my 14 years here in Chicagoland and Wisconsin As to Estonia - it was a sort of suburb for StPetersburg, ... but with a twist, Estonia being our "little window to Europe" - with more relaxed way of life, more and better consumer goods, glimses of modern art and literature, etc. And overnight (6-7 hrs.) train or bus ride from us to Tallinn. Never ever were Estonians considered handsome people, I'm sorry to say. I'm a quarter Estonian myself, mind


I've been to Iowa only once - to the university campus where my friends were as post-doc students. Friends from Tartu, Estonia. THey said that as far as people go -they could be in Estonia. Go figure. They should know, I suppose. Maybe Farmers Fair isn't the best place to look for a bride, - unless you're a farmer yourself, huh?  

First you are in a place with 5 million people. Much more than that if you include the Milwaukee area. If anything that one very large city in the midwest is more of an exception than anything else. As for rural Iowa... wouldn't exactly call Des Moines rural. I would assume the campus you are talking about is the University of Iowa in Iowa City. It is one of the best party schools in the United States. Maybe like what the city of Parnu is to Estonia. Anyways the first thing I'd point out is a lot of the students aren't actually from Iowa (many from Chicago, Peoria and all over). 2nd its an entire town full of 18 to 25 year olds (many of whom aren't actually Iowans) so I'm not sure what point can really be made of them. As for your point about a "Farmer's Fair".. well all I can say is you really don't get it when it comes to the Iowa State Fair. I don't like the fair, but it attracts millions of visitors each year.

As for the U of Iowa. I didn't go to that school because if I did I never would have graduated (like most people that seem to go there... too much drinking). Iowa City must be the binge drinking capitol of the world (seriously). You'll find plenty of young guys and girls with their little beer bellies. Beer is like liquid bread. When you slam countless pints a night you are gonna get fat.

As for reconciling your own Scandinavian roots I have a video that should help. Well it sure helps me

[OlgaH]

Again? you've read something different from what I wrote. And I do not go into "statements" - I have my experience, which shped my views of course. And my experience doesn't and 40 yers ago

I don't think that I read something different that you wrote, and I also pointed that your "statement" or view (as you want to call it) "on a loss and a stunted growth" is based on your experience.  What your experience doesn't?...

No it doesn't all depend on the young woman. Much depends on what ambitions and what kind of career was chosen, how competitive and cowded is this chosen field, etc. Also it depends on time and place. And other circumstances.

A woman's ambitions and her career choice depends on the woman   For example, I was enough mature to make my own decision to choose what an education I would like to obtain, I made my own decision about having a baby and  the time when I  stopped to use contraceptive, and my carrier was only my choice.  
The same I can tell about some of my female classmates at the Academy who also made their own decision regarding  "to marry young", some of them had family life and babies at the same time as I did, and some of them later.

I'm not arguing with you, I just give my own life expirience and attitude to my life expirience as some kind of answer on your view on "to marry young" shaped by your own expirience.  

[JR]

I'm only talking about what I see every day in my home town. That's it.

Yes, I know. And you are right about it. General statements come about through collective agreement. Example: Americans are fat. Not all Americans are fat but enough of us are to have earned that general statement. And if I am not mistaken there are plenty of studies pointing to the fact that America has the highest percentage of obesity on the planet. We also have the most food. Kinda makes sense.

[OlgaH]

We also have the most food. Kinda makes sense.

Fast food and you even don't need to leave your car. And also TV commercial "Eat what you want and loose weight"... "Cookies to loose wight". 

[Wienerin]

I don't think that I read something different that you wrote

OK

  What your experience doesn't?...

Sorry, Koshka jumped on the keybord, and I didn't see the damage My experience does not begin and end 40 years ago... it was continueing and remains an ongoing thing - I still meet people, you know, young ones too. Why do you think American young women do not consider early marriages and starting a family just out of school a smart thing to do?

A woman's ambitions and her career choice depends on the woman  For example, I was enough mature to make my own decision to choose what an education I would like to obtain, I made my own decision about having a baby and  the time when I  stopped to use contraceptive, and my carrier was only my choice.

 
What that has to do with anything? I definitely choose my university majors, so what? And yes, getting my career start some 7 years later than the others in my field wasn't a big boost, let me tell you.

I'm not arguing with you, I just give my own life expirience and attitude to my life expirience as some kind of answer on your view on "to marry young" shaped by your own expirience. 

No, my view are NOT "shaped by my experience" - if you mean my personal stuff. 40 years ago this was rather universal - that people get married (especially women) as soon as. One who didn't manage this "feat" by the time she got her bachelor's degree was considered a hopeless spinster.

As I've pointed out already - time and place matter. Post-war generation (and almost nonexistent contraception to boot... just keep in mind that abortin numbers for Russia are still stunning, and it's widely considered as a variety of contraception) surely was different in many ways.

Also your advance was in management, mine was in science. Different careers in every particular. But enough, either I've lost my  narrative skills, or you're continueing willfully to misunderstand what I'm saying anmd steering (rather - pushing) me in some direction where I don't want to go.

(and yes, I saw you funny post about native Russian foods like pelmeni, borsch and solianka - and didn't want to answer it too)

[OlgaH]

Sorry, Koshka jumped on the keybord, and I didn't see the damage

Sorry,  Wienerin  but you really jump like a Koshka in your own posts who doesn't know what place to choose 

My experience does not begin and end 40 years ago...

No, my view are NOT "shaped by my experience" - if you mean my personal stuff.

Regarding marring young is the post below your own experience or not?

That said, I was a Russia girl who married at 19, had my first baby 1 week after my 20th birthday, - and a whole life to regret it. Looking back I know that with half a brain that I acquired by 25 I wouldn't have married neither the first husband, nor the second, at 23. The first one was 27 y.o. and very world-wise (with all the worse parts of this wisdom, I think), the second - same age as I were but with very defined views on how his wife should behave.

I simply didn't have experience or equipment to deal with any of them. If I had, I'd have still never married the4 second one, but maybe could cope with the first one and lived happily ever after. As it happened, I've totally lost my carefree young years and all the opportunities that go with those. I regained some - but at a much greater cost and effort, and some were lost forever.

So for a girl to marry young is mostly a loss, a stunted growth. IMHO, of course.

(and yes, I saw you funny post about native Russian foods like pelmeni, borsch and solianka - and didn't want to answer it too)

I guess because you have made your own funny post and now you have nothing to say 

because regional cuisines also differ, and in Russia, say, what they eat in StPetersburg would be very different from Siberia or from the South of Russia (Rostov on Don, etc.)

Really? I have never noticed so much difference in cuisine. Interesting, but people in Moscow and St. Petersburg even make pelmeni, borsch and solianka in the same way as people in Siberia do.    Please, enlighten us about what people in St. Petersburg eat, but people in Siberia or Rostov on Don don't 

[OlgaH]

As I've pointed out already - time and place matter. Post-war generation (and almost nonexistent contraception to boot...

But you did not point the post-war generation  out when you wrote 

So for a girl to marry young is mostly a loss, a stunted growth. IMHO, of course.

Nowadays the girls who marry young can choose the time and place too for having family and a baby. It depends on a girl 

[OlgaH]

What that has to do with anything?

I guess with your own logic 

Wienerin,

It all depends on a young woman...

No it doesn't all depend on the young woman. Much depends on what ambitions and what kind of career was chosen...

A woman's ambitions and her career choice depends on the woman 

I definitely choose my university majors, so what?

[Wienerin]

its an entire town full of 18 to 25 year olds (many of whom aren't actually Iowans) so I'm not sure what point can really be made of them.

That not all American women are fat and ugly

As for your point about a "Farmer's Fair".. well all I can say is you really don't get it when it comes to the Iowa State Fair. I don't like the fair, but it attracts millions of visitors each year.

What is there to get? It were you who said that the women there - in their millions as it now seems, - are all fat... And those who drift to the university campus are not. OK

So why not court the girls on the campus instead of going to Tallinn?

As for the U of Iowa. I didn't go to that school because if I did I never would have graduated (like most people that seem to go there... too much drinking). Iowa City must be the binge drinking capitol of the world (seriously). You'll find plenty of young guys and girls with their little beer bellies. Beer is like liquid bread. When you slam countless pints a night you are gonna get fat.

Wow, amazing... will it much surprise you, that the three Baltic states have beer brewing and drinking culture which precedes not only The UofI but Iowa itself, and even the US for some 1000 years? Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius availability of wonderfuls beers - and pubs and beer reastaurants is a revelation after StPetersburg even, and beer drinking begins at a very early age and is the leading cause of alcoholism. Plenty of beer bellies too

As for reconciling your own Scandinavian roots I have a video that should help. Well it sure helps me

I do NOT have (as far as I was able to ascertain - back to the 17th c) any Scandinavian roots. Estonians aren't Scandinavian - who are Germanic "Norske" people. Estonian are related to other Baltic people - Lithuanians and Latvians, also to the Finn-Ugrians, who were the "newcomers" from behind the Urals. Hence the frequent high cheekbones in Estonia, Finland, Karelia and Hungary.  

If I had any - Scandinavian roots, I mean, - there would be nothing to "reconcile", I am equally fond of all my ancestral bloodlines

Sorry, but it's really funny to have Estonia or even Tallinn extolled as a plce with abundance of pretty and stylish women. Oh, well... I really know nothing about Iowa State Fair

[Wienerin]

But you did not point the post-war generation  out when you wrote 


Nowadays the girls who marry young can choose the time and place too for having family and a baby. It depends on a girl 

But you didn't have any difficulty in figuring out That my 20 years were 40 years ago, did you?

And now for the hard part for me. Olga, please, leave me alone. Do not answer my posts, do not ask me anything. I do not know what it is and why, but you are one of the most astonishingly rude and unpleasant persons I've had a miscfortune to meet in the US. Practice your own brand of logic and management skills on some body else.

(I it's simply your English I apologize but still do not want to deal with you, sorry)

[topofthekey]

That not all American women are fat and ugly  

So why not court the girls on the campus instead of going to Tallinn?
Wow, amazing... will it much surprise you, that the three Baltic states have beer brewing and drinking culture which precedes not only The UofI but Iowa itself, and even the US for some 1000 years? Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius availability of wonderfuls beers - and pubs and beer reastaurants is a revelation after StPetersburg even, and beer drinking begins at a very early age and is the leading cause of alcoholism. Plenty of beer bellies too
I do NOT have (as far as I was able to ascertain - back to the 17th c) any Scandinavian roots. Estonians aren't Scandinavian - who are Germanic "Norske" people. Estonian are related to other Baltic people - Lithuanians and Latvians, also to the Finn-Ugrians, who were the "newcomers" from behind the Urals. Hence the frequent high cheekbones in Estonia, Finland, Karelia and Hungary.  

If I had any - Scandinavian roots, I mean, - there would be nothing to "reconcile", I am equally fond of all my ancestral bloodlines

Sorry, but it's really funny to have Estonia or even Tallinn extolled as a plce with abundance of pretty and stylish women. Oh, well... I really know nothing about Iowa State Fair

I just checked Wikipedia (give me a break I'm not writing a term paper here) and they do reference Scandinavia but do mention that Estonians are a finnic people closely related to the Finns. Personally I thought in a previous post you were kinda talking down Tallinn, Estonia a little bit compared to Saint Petersburg. Maybe that's not true but just how it read.

As for your comment on beer I agree. All kinds of great beer at Hell Hunt in Tallinn. I normally have a beer or two then maybe a few drinks and stop. The problem at college that I saw (even experienced for myself) was that we'd drink and drink and drink every night. We'd eat pizza and all kinds of fast food. We'd study and little and that's about it. The problem was all the lifestyle choices. If you drink resonably and eat a semi healthy lifestyle with a little excerise you can look great. I learned that. I'm not saying you won't find in shape girls in Iowa. And I'm not saying you won't find out of shape girls in Estonia. What I AM saying is you will find by percentages that Estonian women are a lot more in shape and take a lot better care of themselves. You throw the Iowa cheerleaders in Estonia and they are VERY average. But in Iowa they are big fish in a small pond. And trust me I know someone that has dated one of those girls. Talk about drama, craving attention, and truly believing she is all that. No thanks.

As for what you'll see at the Iowa State Fair, the grocery store, or the dance floor in Central Iowa... you really can't ask what ifs and why fly to the FSU until you've seen for yourself.

And as for Estonia's place as having hot women compared to other places around the world. I certainly haven't been everywhere, but they outrank the local scene here... and its not even close.

[OlgaH]

But you didn't have any difficulty in figuring out That my 20 years were 40 years ago, did you?

Yes, Wienerin, you gave your expirience that were 40 y.o., post-war time (and you did not hide your age) and I gave my expirience that took place in absolutely different time, more closer to the present time, and I was able to manage all my decision by myself without regrets as many women of my generation was able to do.

I do not know what it is and why, but you are one of the most astonishingly rude and unpleasant persons I've had a miscfortune to meet in the US. Practice your own brand of logic and management skills on some body else.

If you find my polite conversation with you to be rude. Let me remind you about one of your posts to a member of this board, where you showed all your own rudeness.

By the way - your information (via your girl and some strange "research" with the stranger still "experts") about Armenians is such ill-informed and stupid gibberish, that I am frankly at a loss to quantify your intelligence. What nasty idiot told you abour "honor murders" in Armenia? .

Once again - either your girlfriend is lying through her teeth or there's something badly wrong with her (after these latest revelations, I think - both).

And you don't hesitate to express your opinion about somebody's post in your own manner

Sorry, but it's BS pure and simple.

[JR]

Hands OlgaH and weinerin fisticuffs

nothing like a good cat fight to get the juices flowing! :evil:

To coin a war provoking phrase, "Can't we all just get along?"

Whos says the world would be a peaceful place if women ran it? I didn't, nope not me

Will someone please tell me to shut up now before I MUST SUFFER THE EATING OF ICE CREAM?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Sculpto]

Why do you think American young women do not consider early marriages and starting a family just out of school a smart thing to do?
  

40 years of the women's "liberation" movement and the fact that so many people in this country come from one parent families and other variations. 

Back when I was at a large midwestern uni before going to art school we had a name for certain kinds of girls.. they were seeking the much desired MRS degree.  Mrs. Doctor, Mrs. Lawyer, Mrs. Anyguythatmakesalotofmoney...

College was 25 years ago and remains for many AW the BEST place to find a husband with "prospects". 

Then, throw in the "girls gone wild" party mentality that has become a major part of pop culture and a lot of girls simply aren't interested in marriage because they think they are having fun.  Back in the 90's I watched several good female friends decend into a world of hurt because they were "girls gone wild" working as strippers, partying constantly, doing all kinds of hallucinogenic drugs, having sex with strangers and so on.  Somehow that lifestyle was glorified at the expense of more traditional lifestyles.  Now, those same girls couldn't land a husband no matter how much they might want one.

In more religious communities, probably in the bible belt, one might find women more likely to marry young and start families because their churches pound it into their heads that is what they are supposed to do.  But, in secualr mainstream US society early marriage is just not realistic.

Oh, and by the way.. the guys typically have little or no interest in marriage either because they are too busy supplying the "girls gone wild" with booze and sex to have any reason to consider settling down.

And then you know what happens to the ones that actually fullfill the promise of women's lib?  They get good careers, maybe they even take good care of themselves.. but by the time they decide they might want to get married they have become so heartless and self absorbed that no man in his right mind would marry any of them.  Eventually they become cougars and have their boy toys to keep them satisfied sexually and maybe a little emotionally. 

It is actually really sad.  And it is also a big part of why a lot of us men are looking outside this country for a suitable wife.  Many of us are just fed up with the BS AWs give us.  It just isn't worth it.  I know in my case if I did not have the chance to find someone in another country I would prefer to spend the rest of my life alone than be involved with another woman from this country.

[Sculpto]

btw.. there is a constant and ongoing debate on craigslist regarding white men and asian women.  Apparently white women do not approve of this phenomena and seem to believe that the men who go for such marriages are losers incapable of meeting the "simple" requirements of white women with absolutely no recognition that maybe, just maybe, this would not exist if these same white women actually brought something to the table that was worth the effort of "fighting" for.  Honestly, the WORST FSU gold digger is mild in comparison to the man hating shrews that populate my wonderful city.  God forbid you should actually smile at a lady walking down the street or even worse, say hello, or the worst offense at all.. open a door!  You have NO IDEA how discouraging it is, humiliating even, at times. 

This discussion reminds me very much of my first trip to Ukraine and the first time I smiled at a pretty girl and instead of frowning at me or looking away she came over and sat down on the bench.  She didn't know I wasn't local, as I said I blend in very well.. but she was sure excited when she learned I was from the USA.  that scenario repeated itself over and over on that first trip and I did not forget it when I was alone for a day and half in Moscow either.  Women in this country just do not respond in the same way. 

Sorry for the rant.. but.. you really hit a sore spot and ultimately, no matter how difficult it is to find a love match with an FSU lady because of distance, culture, langauge and all the other shortfalls of this process.. the effort is worth it because a lady from the FSU retains a certain female quality that has long since disappeared in US women.

[OlgaH]

To coin a war provoking phrase, "Can't we all just get along?"

Jolly,

I'm very easy person to get along    maybe not so easy for some personas  

[topofthekey]

btw.. there is a constant and ongoing debate on craigslist regarding white men and asian women.  Apparently white women do not approve of this phenomena and seem to believe that the men who go for such marriages are losers incapable of meeting the "simple" requirements of white women with absolutely no recognition that maybe, just maybe, this would not exist if these same white women actually brought something to the table that was worth the effort of "fighting" for. 

Damn it sculpto why did you have to post that. Why are you making me now go on a rant.  . First if you believe AM go to asia because they aren't good enough to keep a white women you are racist. You might not not be the KKK, but if IMBRA isn't a modern day Jim Crow law then I don't know what is. It is pure and simple a feminist agenda. And believe me feminism is starting to have little to do with equal rights.

If you are going to pursue a lady from Asia, Central/South America, or the FSU you'd better be thick skinned. I have absolutely no problem saying I'd rather date a latina, asian, or FSU woman. I've flat out told family and friends I prefer traveling and meeting ladies of different cultures. When 20 and 30 some year old guys, who look decent and have good social skills are going overseas that tells us something. It tells us that despite our culture and despite what you always read in the media that men from our country overall aren't insuperior to AW and aren't evil predators. So if men these ladies are interested in are going overseas maybe the problem doesn't only rest with one sex. Maybe some women just don't make the men they date happy. Maybe instead of settling these men decide to look elsewhere. Maybe AW aren't perfect and all knowing.

If women ruled the world there would be no wars!
Women are smarter then men!

You say this in the public square or on TV and you'll be met with applause. Turn the genders around and you are sexist.

Ok no... you think sculpto can rant... I'm NOT DONE!!!! Women wear low cut tops. They were jeans that when they bend over their ass hangs out of. They were low cut jeans that require a waxing if you know what I mean. But if you look at them you are a male perv. Or you are obsessed with sex. Or you are sexually harrassing her on the spot. Yet the sole purpose of women dressing like a hoochie mamma is to attract attention. It will attract attention they like and dislike. But even if it is a guy they are interested in they act like they are doing you a favor by letting you buy them a drink.

Want me to go on? All tv shows seem to depict men as dumb and weak. Even cartoons. Really the power puff girls beating up men. Please. You know that guy who wears a sweatervest and is always asking out the girl a few cubicles down at the office. Oh common you know the guy. He is a nice guy and always does nice things for her. He's only 5'11 (not 6'3 so he's definiately on the short side  ) and he's only in average shape. Of course this lady is probably 5'5 170 (but hey she bleaches her hair and fake bakes). She always turns down this guy. She watches all the TV shows and soaks up how women are more powerful than men. That women are smarter than men. That men are oppressive predators. She probably even makes fun of this guy with other female friends and co-workers. But one day this woman is walking out of the office late. Of course this guy happens to be finishing up as well so they decide to share a cab. She's thinking gawd I hope he isn't annoying during the ride, but hey he'll probably end up paying for the cab. Anways as they both walk outside a mugger steps out in front of them with a knife.

So despite how much more powerful and intelligent this woman is than this weak pathetic co-worker the first thing she does is cower behind the man and says "Do something".

Ok end of rant for the most part. Of course I'm not saying all women are physically weak. But in general to men they are despite what feminism or the nightly tv shows have to say about it.

Ok I'm done. beat that sculpto. and... where is my ice cream? 

[facetrock]

hmmmmm. Revealing post Topofthekey, now I know why you seek foreign women. Sadly, they wont help you either.

[topofthekey]

hmmmmm. Revealing post Topofthekey, now I know why you seek foreign women. Sadly, they wont help you either.

Really inform me? I thought it was because I had a few female co-workers one being from hong kong and the other from russia. My last American g/f was pretty attractive but after 6 months she always seemed to be yelling. Over anything. If I wasn't sure what restuarant I wanted to go to... she'd probably yell. I'd asker to stop yelling. She'd yell I'm not yelling. LOL. Anyways female co-workers said there are plenty of women in hong kong or moscow that I should meet.

Other than a crazy rant that everyone is entitled to occasionally. what did I reveal? Hopefully at the very least you found some humor.

In that whole rant I forgot to even mention how teachers treat little boys in school. Its something I hear endlessly from parents with young kids.

[topofthekey]

well if i can't entertain you maybe Ali G can.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyLSstqMvH8[/youtube]

[TwoBitBandit]

well if i can't entertain you maybe Ali G can.

This reminds me of something my grandfather used to tell me...

A wife, a dog, and a walnut tree... the more you beat them, the better they be!