Another statistic

[Chicagoguy]

My fiance has an interview on April 2. Anticipating this I had sent train fare and hotel $$. Jusy enough - as this is all she wanted. But I included some extra so she could get some decent suitcases with wheels. How can you ever pack a lifetime in two bags ? She still says she will try for one.

At any rate she wrote back that these bags cost too much. About $ 143 each. She said that she wasn't going to buy them and I couldn't make her. All the women I have met there were with similar atitudes. Maybe it was age ? Over 50.

So my experiences have all been positive regards Russian women and money.

[BC]

Unfortunately this goes to show that even though you spend years with a person, their cultural background and past behavior can rear its' ugly head and there is not a damn thing you can to do fix it. 

The two year point in our marriage was a very turbulent time.  Remember that the most important factor in the adjustment period is the adjustment to your partner and not necessarily what goes on outside your four walls. I can just imagine myself posting a similar thread.. it was that close.

My gut feeling - anything but over.

[ScottinCrimea]

Dang!  I was just finishing a very long post updating what was going on, but it magically erased itself.  I guess that is a sign that it was too long.  I'll try to recreate it and condense it somewhat a bit later, but now I want to comment on some of the things Gator wrote, as I feel it is an important topic to discuss.

First, I want to say that I am overwhelmed and humbled by the amount of support offered by the members here both publically and in PM's.  Even those with whom I have had disagreements in the past (with the exception of a notable few) have rallied behind me.  While I at first hesitated to bring any of this up, I see now that it was a good thing.  We truly have an outstanding community here.

I also want to thank those who have so freely offered advice on everything.  I hope none will take offense if I choose not to follow some of it.  Rest assured that I am not ignoring it, just understanding that it is impossible for anyone here to have all of the details and I need to apply that which I believe will work for my individual situation.

Gator makes some very good points.  The idea of some show of appreciation is a big one, and I think something that I ignored from the beginning.  Some guys may fool themselves into thinking that if she gives him great sex that it is her way of showing appreciation, but these are two entirely separate things in her mind.

I know I rationalized her lack of expressing appreciation in a lot of ways and for a long time.  At the times when it really got to me and I would ask her about it, her reply was, "Why should I thank you?  You are just doing your job as husband." and thus confirming her sense of entitlement.  Guys, if you ever hear these words or anything similar, RUN!!

I have seen an interesting twist on this lately.  She claims that since I am her sponsor, I am 100% required to provide her with everything and there is no obligation on her part to contribute anything.  She says that she will simply show the divorce judge the visa papers and he will force me to take care of her for the next 10 years and she will not have to work.  Any attempts to dispel this myth fall on deaf ears.

The sense of having a partnership is also a very important one, and it should be considered by both as an EQUAL partnership or there will arise resentment in one party or the other.  Before marrying, there should be a clear understanding of what the expectations are from each in the partnership.  Heck, write it down if you think it would help.  I thought my wife and I had agreement on many of the things that we are now debating.  Lately, when I have mentioned that I thought our agreement was such and such, she would counter with, "So you see our marriage as just an agreement, like partners in a business?"

I really do think we were in agreement on these things initially, but after she was here for awhile her ideas of what she wanted personally changed, thanks in part to "friends" and her observation of an American lifestyle fueled by credit.  I think I stubbornly clung to my understanding of the agreement and didn't take the time to discuss things with her when there was the suggestion that she might be changing her views.  I thought that as things started to come together she would see the rewards of the longterm planning, but she couldn't deep the longterm outlook for long.  Instead of thinking, "Wow, we just put a second floor and new roof on our building in Ukraine!,"  she was thinking, "Why hasn't my husband bought me a new sports car like my friend's husband did for her?"

Okay, I'll stop now before my post erases itself again.  I'll come back to the update later.

[Diplomacy]

Gator:
Exactly.

Officer bear
My feelings about Scott as well.

Chicago:

A woman over 50 from the FSU, has seen much harder times than many of us have ever experienced.  In some cases of course, nothing is absolute.  Another dynamic, is finding a man at her age is not an easy task.  Remember also, the average life expectancy is around 62 for a male in the FSU.

[Ranetka]

 
 Unfortunately this goes to show that even though you spend years with a person, their cultural background and past behavior can rear its' ugly head and there is not a damn thing you can to do fix it. 

It is not the cultural background. RW actively searching for a partner abroad, especially younger ones are prepared to leave a family and friends behind for the desire of (financially) better life.(as well as other reasons of course) Your girls are just more materialistic (in general) than an average RW guys...

Amd I am not saying it is a bad thing because US is a materialistic culture.

[Mir]

$140 for a suitcase...... wow

[groovlstk]

Yesterday, Scott on page 1 presented detailed examples of his wife's mentality about money.  That and similar stories have been told over and over by several men who know RW.  Issues about budgeting, who spends what on whom, sense of satisfaction with what you have rather than what you do not have, etc. can become huge problems.

Scott also wrote this about his wife's spending habits in better times:

I certainly wouldn't call my Ukrainian wife high maintenance.  I've been trying for a year to get her to buy a second pair of jeans.  I gave her money for winter boots this week and she went out and bought material and sewed new curtains for our apartment.  As long as there is bread in the house, she doesn't care whether or not she has a penny in her pocket.  Any ideas on how I can get her to spend more on herself?

Was she able to conceal her true character for years? Did she suddenly change after arriving in the US? Or was Scott deceiving himself? There are no good answers for guys still in the search phase.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott also wrote this about his wife's spending habits in better times:

Was she able to conceal her true character for years? Did she suddenly change after arriving in the US? Or was Scott deceiving himself? There are no good answers for guys still in the search phase.

Keep in mind groov that this was 2 1/2 years ago, a year before she ever came to the US.  At that time she had more than anyone she knew, so she was content for the most part.  Now having spent some time in the US, she sees those around her with more of this thing or that thing and she is suddenly not content.  Yes, her views did change after she came here.  Just like with AW, there is a competition between them and other women.  They look around to see who has the bigger house, the nicer car, the best nails, etc.  In Ukraine, it was her, so no problem.  Here, there will always be someone who can outspend me on something or other, so I think it will be difficult for her to ever be really content with what she has here.

[Blues Fairy]

They look around to see who has the bigger house, the nicer car, the best nails, etc.  In Ukraine, it was her, so no problem.

Sorry Scott but how did you not see this shallowness while still in Ukraine?  It's beyond belief. 

[Shadow]

Keep in mind groov that this was 2 1/2 years ago, a year before she ever came to the US.  At that time she had more than anyone she knew, so she was content for the most part.  Now having spent some time in the US, she sees those around her with more of this thing or that thing and she is suddenly not content.  Yes, her views did change after she came here.  Just like with AW, there is a competition between them and other women.  They look around to see who has the bigger house, the nicer car, the best nails, etc.  In Ukraine, it was her, so no problem.  Here, there will always be someone who can outspend me on something or other, so I think it will be difficult for her to ever be really content with what she has here.

Scott, like BF I wonder if this did not show some time during the courting stage. I remember rejecting one candidate as she was always telling about how little she had and how she wanted to have more. The 'never satisfied' was clear from the beginning, which made me run.
Was it a change that you did not expect, or was it that you expected her to be drawn to her home country enough not to get stuck in the US lifestyle ? 

[acrzybear]

It is not the cultural background. RW actively searching for a partner abroad, especially younger ones are prepared to leave a family and friends behind for the desire of (financially) better life.(as well as other reasons of course) Your girls are just more materialistic (in general) than an average RW guys...

And I am not saying it is a bad thing because US is a materialistic culture.

Our girls are not more materialistic!! Now excuse me, I have to go work a double shift so I can buy my American girlfriend that $1500.00 Gucci purse she wants

 I could not agree with you more, and the younger FSU generation has become similar in it's thinking towards material things.  

[BC]

Here, there will always be someone who can outspend me on something or other, so I think it will be difficult for her to ever be really content with what she has here.

Part of the learning process, a difficult part. Rx is to let them learn from their own mistakes. Reality check time.  In the early years I was overprotective and trying to micromanage their lives.  I gave up and things slowly improved.  "Fine, go right ahead and do it your way but don't come back crying.."  Doesn't work all the time.. I have been surprised when things worked out their way better than I expected, but hey I can learn too..

[ECOCKS]

In almost all of these posts, you can see the near total difficulty that FSUW (M too for that matter) have with regard to planning. This comes up in most every conversation among serious WM having serious, long-term relationships with FSUW. A friend of mine expressed frustration a couple of years ago when he told his wife to begin remodeling their center apartment. She asked him how much her new kitchen would cost and he told her to think what she wanted, then get bids/estimates to show him and discuss. She then insisted that she could NOT do this until he told her how much money she could have. He repeated that she should think what she wanted and then get the estimates.  This went through several cycles, escalating steadily as she became more and more frustrated.  Finally he said, "OKAY! You can have $10,000 to do it that's how much." She said, "OK." He said at that point he realized he could just as easily said $20,000 or $7,000 and would probably have gotten the same answer.

I have seen this repeatedly among business students, managers and executives; strategic planning is an (practically) unknown science.  Attempts to push the process result in repeated questions as to why you think they have any control over the future. This has been a very absolute environment over the last few decades and it is fair to say that the society has allowed this life skill to atrophy away.  Expect that your wife will need more preparation as to why one thing is selected over another (the concept of priorities) and get her to be a large part of the selection from the menu of available options. Remember too that they do not see nearly as many options for a situation as you will.

[Ranetka]

Our girls are not more materialistic!! Now excuse me, I have to go work a double shift so I can buy my American girlfriend that $1500.00 Gucci purse she wants
  

I just can not make myself clear today...
RW actively searching AM to marry are much more materialistic than an average RW so I can not help but oppose when people here are saying it is their wives' cultural background and (communist) past that makes their wives crave for materialistic things regadless of circumstances.

[Turboguy]

This might make an interesting poll for the married men.  For me, I don't see any resemblence between what I am hearing here and my wife.  My wife is very careful about money and is very capable of planning, probably more so than most AW.   

If some of the things I am reading here are typical of all FSU women I think most men would be smart to take up golf and stay single. 

Scott, you seem like you are handling it well and keeping your head together.  I know this has to be really tough and the worrying about what might be ahead also has to be worrisome.   We all apprecite your sharing your story.  Good luck.

[acrzybear]

I do not speak much Russian and I have not lived in Russia so I can only see things as an outsider, but from what I have read and observed is that women that were in their teens in the early 90's have a different mindset then women that were in their 20's (and older) during the same time frame. My belief is that this is due to being exposed to capitalism at a young age.

  Capitalism is not always a good thing.

[ECOCKS]

I just can not make myself clear today...
RW actively searching AM to marry are much more materialistic than an average RW so I can not help but oppose when people here are saying it is their wives' cultural background and (communist) past that makes their wives crave for materialistic things regardless of circumstances.

I think the only thing that the past has to do with this discussion of materialism is that it created pent-up demand. I noticed that a basic part of the furniture kit issued for a family included a curio cabinet section for displaying photos and things. I have also noticed in various homes that in the cabinets they are often displaying one-of-a-kind things such as a cup chased with gold filigree or a china plate with a unique pattern standing on a little display easel. I mentioned to my wife that people here seem to keep a lot of these little odd things just like Americans keep knick-knacks and souvenirs so they weren't that much different. She indicated that very often these dishes were valued because they were different from the basic issued set of dishes for each family and only brought out for birthdays, weddings and other special celebrations. This doesn't sound any different from the way we viewed wedding china or that silver chafing dish Grandma gave us on our Anniversary.  

So, there was "materialism" and desire to be seen as having something unique even in the old days. Lack of cash and consumer goods then seems to have done as much or more to limit materialism as a general sense of discouraging social competition from the state.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sorry Scott but how did you not see this shallowness while still in Ukraine?  It's beyond belief. 

Ironically, one of the things that I found attractive in her was her lack of materialistic thinking.  She seemed content to live in a home that was in many ways substandard, even by Ukrainian standards.  The only money she asked of me when we were dating was to put a heating system in her home, since she had none and relied on electical space heaters to get through the winters.  She worried about her young daughter in such conditions and I felt that even if our relationship didn't progress, it was a decent thing to do. She put in a basic coal furnace and simple metal piping.  She had nice clothes but nothing fancy and really hated to shop for clothes.  She would refuse my offers of money for clothes. She bought very basic food.  After some time in our relationship I began to send her some money every month.  It wasn't much and, looking back, I don't know how she got by, but she never complained or asked for more.

Before I moved there, I had enough trust and faith in her that I wired her a ton of money to buy an apartment and remodel it.  She could have easily taken the money and run, leaving me with no recourse.  Instead, she did just what she said she would do, and none of the money was diverted to her personal use.

So now she had the nicest apartment in the area and she took a lot of pride in that.  She was fine with spending money on the apartment but still very frugal with everything else.  An interesting thing is that before I came to live there, she had many single woman friends in basically the same position she was in.  After I came and she "moved up in the world", these women became jealous and the friendships ended.  I didn't see my wife flaunting anything or acting better than them.  It was just them hating to see someone rise above them in some way.  Her new friends became those around us who had similar financial situations.  She had one friend who had a couple of things like a 52 inch plasma TV that she mentioned she would like, but never in a demanding way.

When I was back in the US establishing residency and completing the visa paperwork, she never complained about how much money I was sending her and never asked for more.  When she first came here, she was happy living in a simple small apartment with basic furniture because it made no sense to buy anything that we would just leave here when we returned.  I think it was 6 months to a year after she came here that I first started noticing the real discontent in her and it seems to have grown exponentially since then.

I think she was content with little there because that was basically all she saw with everyone else around her.  The next step up financially was a big one there.  Not much of a middle class to compare to.  Here, she saw many around her with "just a little more" and it seemed to her quite obtainable if I wasn't "wasting money" and "being greedy".  In her mind that was the only thing that kept her from having what some others have.

Blues Fairy, I've tried to look back and see where such shallowness was observable but there is really nothing that stands up and waves a red flag, in fact the flags all looked pretty green to me.  Can you see where I might have missed something?

[Blues Fairy]

My belief is that this is due to being exposed to capitalism at a young age. Capitalism is not always a good thing.

A sense of entitlement in young RW is not a product of capitalism; it's a product of a still-Soviet mentality exposed to the abundance of free market.

[Gator]

I just can not make myself clear today...
RW actively searching AM to marry are much more materialistic than an average RW so I can not help but oppose when people here are saying it is their wives' cultural background and (communist) past that makes their wives crave for materialistic things regadless of circumstances.

The agency told me she moves because all she wants is a good man and there are no good men in Russia.   Also, you use the term "an average RW" so we can dismiss your statement not just becuase of culture but because "my RW is different."    

A serious thought.  Is this aspect not inherent with the type of woman we seek:

-  Very few of us are knowingly marrying an ugly RW.  RM are known to spoil pretty women, and could it be we are dating RW who have already been spoiled before we arrived?

-  All of the RW who interested me were (among other qualities such as intelligence and SOH)  adventurous, classy, sophisticated, worldly, and full of pride.  Such women have refined tastes which carried over into clothes, shoes, etc.  They are proud of themselves and were not content with something ordinary.  However, neither am I so why should I demand less in my woman.  The cosmetics drive me crazy, yet it seems important to them. 


IMO, economic motivation to move to the West is on a continuum and does vary dependent upon the RW.  At the far end is pure "me me" materialism.  At the front end is nothing more than a desire for more opportunity.  Close to the front end is a feeling of stability and financial security.  Somewhere past the middle is high maintenance.   

I am saying that I avoided the low maintenance women as much as the high maintenance types.  Most of the RW I met seem to fall in the middle, and I would call few of them overly materialistic from my perspective. 

[Gator]

A sense of entitlement in young RW is not a product of capitalism; it's a product of a still-Soviet mentality exposed to the abundance of free market.

Interesting thought.  Does it apply equally to  RW who stay as well as those who leave for the West?

[ECOCKS]

A sense of entitlement in young RW is not a product of capitalism; it's a product of a still-Soviet mentality exposed to the abundance of free market.

 

I agree 100% BF, you are "right on the money" with this observation. Now add a growing % of disposable income (pre-crisis at least) and you have a big part of the equation established.

[Ranetka]

- 


I am saying that I avoided the low maintenance women as much as the high maintenance types.  Most of the RW I met seem to fall in the middle, and I would call few of them overly materialistic from my perspective. 

Then you have done the right thing choosing a woman who has the right level of materialism for you.  And, yes it is all about "average". How can I discuss anyone in particular if I do not know them. And I do not feel it is right at the moment to discuss Scott's wife as it is a very painful moment for him and I think may be anything can still change...

[Daveman]

A sense of entitlement in young RW is not a product of capitalism; it's a product of a still-Soviet mentality exposed to the abundance of free market.

While the concepts of capitalism, or soviet mentality could lay the foundation of "life's school", the most basic premise and the one most grounded in reality is that a sense of entitlement is a learned state of being (can't really call it a behavior), which grows as it is reinforced over time -- for example, a parent spoiling a child, giving him/her something for nothing, again and again, or the men flocking to a beautiful woman, giving her whatever she desires for some crumbs of affection.  Within this warped view, the person genuinely begins to believe there is actual value in simply being self. Being self is worth being paid for.

It can also be derived by proxy... witnessing another person getting something for nothing and developing a sense at first of jealousy (why should SHE get this and I don't? I should have the same) which evolves into the full blown syndrome over time.

The most bottom line of the lines is the belief that "just being me had intrinsic material value and is worth being paid for" regardless as to whether I give in return, just being me is enough.

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't want anyone jumping in here and making any moral judgements, I just want to expand a bit on the issue.

My wife inferred, but never specifically stated (and I didn't push the issue), that before we met she had boyfriends who would give her gifts or money because of her youth and beauty. I think that many beautiful women develop this sense or entitlement based on their looks because there are many men who will enable such thinking.  One comment she has made is that I have taken five years from her youth and I think she is afraid that if we break up she won't have this option now.  I'm sure this has a lot to do with her recent obsession with going on a diet.

Her single mother RW friend, for quite some time now, has had a RM boyfriend in New York who would regulary send her gifts or a lot of money.  She would make frequent trips there at his expense to see him.  Everytime we drove her to the airport, she would be dressed in an extremely sexy manner, not typical of how she normally dresses.  For whatever reasons it was an acceptable arrangement for the both of them.  I don't recall that there was ever much discussion of actually getting married.

Her last trip there, they got into some sort of an argument, and the relationship broke off when he made a trip here to see her.  According to her, he wanted sex and she refused because she was on her period and didn't feel well.  He got angry and left.

So now she has the money from her earned income credit and is using it for a breast lift.  I guess she sees this as an investment to either lure her boyfriend and his money back or find another one.  I've never really heard her talk about actually getting married again.

I think it's easy to see how this could impact my wife's thinking - free money, gifts and trips for just looking good with little or no expectation of having to provide anything in return other than the pleasure of looking at them.