Materialism

[ECOCKS]

Here's your chance! Answer the question in general for your view of all FSUW but if you feel yours is "different" you can indicate in responses here.

My gal is pretty darn prudent and often keeps me from eating out too much or wants to be assured there is some occasion when we go to Outback or equivalent (although she LOVED the salad bar at Ryan's Steakhouse!).

[Diplomacy]

I just think that it is not materialism.  It is status, and they are somewhat mutually exclusive.  I do agree with what the ladies have said in the matter.  There are so many contributing factors to all of this.

1. The FSU is not a capitalist society.  All of the countries have economies that are manipulated by the government and certain segments of society.  They are quick to blame the Western culture, for causing a lot of problems in their society.

Capitalism has no real chance, unless there is an actual revolt.  The victors would have to implement the changes, and not revert back to abusing others with power.  Simply put, not doing what the current regime is doing.  A quick glance at FSU history, it does not have a track record of achieving such.

2. You have over a decade and half now of WM, going over there and throwing money around.  What are you really thinking their expectations are?  Staying at the best hotels, and going to the best dining establishments is fine.  As long, as you can afford to do that in America. 

3. Envy and greed is a staple in FSU culture.  As much as it is in American culture.

4. You are chasing after some of the most sought after women in the FSU.  They know their value, and it is not often understood by WM.  Dave, explains it best.

5. America and the FSU are so different, that I can not find a point of reference in a lot of areas.  That being said, it is not fair to say that all expectations have been set properly.

6. You live your life, with the currency not being worth half what it was last year.  Not trusting banks, therefore you can not even get it invested to keep up with hyper inflation.  Have the banks steal all you have ever saved.  Not knowing who the next regime is going to be, or what agenda the next regime is going to have.  I would be living in the moment also.  I thought long and hard about it.  I completely understand the thinking, scares me to admit it. 

Even now, the banks are setting a daily limit for withdrawals.

7. Dave explains the "entitlement".  For some women, they just need to be pretty.  It is the same here, just many of the men would not get the time of day with that woman.

The women that do have this entitlement are going to be more open to marrying a WM.  They are not worried about leaving their friends and family, as much as they worry about cashing in before their looks fade.  As some of the women have pointed out.

8.  For most of the men, the admit fully they married up.  Some married up to good women, some to demons in high heals.  It is not the society as much as the person.  Yes, society influences some behavior, but it is just to easy to say it is a Soviet Thing.

9.  There are women there that are experts in the art of deception and manipulation.  They know how to tell you everything you want to hear, and keep the act up as long as they need to.  How do you think some of these single mothers survived, before some WM came along?

10. Language barrier, hard to get a real feel for anybody if you can not communicate the expectations.

I do not know what happens for me either, I just studied a real lot and did not do anything until I found what I was looking for.  Yes, I could be duped and that is the risk in any relationship.  I have to trust what she says is true, and her actions have matched the talk.  How someone reacts to a new environment, you can never really know.  You must find someone of real good character, the slightest indicator that it is not real.

Run Forest, Run!

[Misha]

Some are, some aren't. The question is whether men chasing Russian wives can tell the difference or whether they will try to justify it in terms of "culture" even if they clue in to the fact that their girlfriends/fiancees are a bit too materialistic 

[Caddydaddy]

Excellent post Diplomacy!

Truly gives me to think... and maybe some more questions are developing just in the right moment.
I say same, as soon as my belly says, halt! - not good... run!

- respectively, sit in the Caddy and float down the road, slashing the air with the fins, hehe


Thank you and best

[Diplomacy]

Caddy:

That is the important thing.  You need to ask yourself, if this current situation gets 10 times harder, would I still be happy?

If the issues arise that others have faced, is her words and actions similar to the woman you want to marry.  Is the man that is posting, similar to your personality.  Will I be able to keep up the level of patience necessary when the going get tough?

Is there an ability to actually reason together? 

My fiance is very different than any Ukrainian woman I have met.  She is very appreciative of even the smallest things I do.  Has actually admitted she is sorry, and meant it.  Even then, there is a lot of cost versus benefit conversations.

If we do this, then that would mean we could not do that.  Which is more important?

I do not know if that helps anyone, but it seems to help my situation.

[ambach123]

Diplomacy, I got to tell you, that was a very well written post, you have a very good grasp.

[groovlstk]

This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I believe that finding a woman who genuinely buys into the idea that together you are a team, a family unit, and that all financial decisions should be made with the idea of strengthening the team's future together is much more important than searching for a woman who pinches pennies.

[ECOCKS]

Caddy:

If we do this, then that would mean we could not do that.  Which is more important?

Critical, IMO. This is the basic ability to prioritize and make decisions. Making mutual decisions is that equally important next step up.

[Misha]

This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I believe that finding a woman who genuinely buys into the idea that together you are a team, a family unit, and that all financial decisions should be made with the idea of strengthening the team's future together is much more important than searching for a woman who pinches pennies.

My ideal was a woman who pinches pennies because she wants the best for her family and is capable of delaying gratification for the sake of achieving long-term goals.

[Diplomacy]

I am glad it was worth reading.  

Groov

That was my number one goal at the start of this.  This is what I have developing very nicely.  A team, that is acting as a collective.  I try not to do much of anything without seeking her input.  Each time a am improving my understanding of her, and she is of me.

In fact, now that I think about it.  I do not think there has been even a misunderstanding so far this month.

The best way I can relate this is when I played basketball in college.  I really sat the bench, but that is another story.  We had a Euro that played on our team.  We simply were not even playing the same game.

He would not attack the basket to draw a foul and I did not take an open shot, when I should.    Once we got a feel for each other, and learned from it.  Then we were a team.  Mind you, I was on the bench and he was playing.  A team none the less though.

So drawing from the learning experience.  I just go about things with her, much different then I would have.  If I had not had that experience.

[Daveman]

This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I believe that finding a woman who genuinely buys into the idea that together you are a team, a family unit, and that all financial decisions should be made with the idea of strengthening the team's future together is much more important than searching for a woman who pinches pennies.

Yahtzee!!!  This has been my thought as well, but really, I was beginning to think that I am totally out in left field with that.  That team mentality seems to be what has been eluding me in this search. Sure ladies have "taken care of me" -- can't really think of how to explain it though everyone who has dated an RW should easily understand exactly what I am trying to say... doing what they perceive to be their part, but that "enjoy today but plan and ACT for a stronger future together" is a concept that, in my experience, has not really been understood more than superficially at best.  I obviously am not much of a teacher as I have tried, in great detail, to explain some things and more than thrice.  Is this mentality intrinsic to some and  not others? Or is this strictly a Western concept of marital thrust? 

It seems to me that male/female roles play a huge part for them whereas with us the lines are a little more blurred. "Man's job/woman's job" vs "Team as a single unit planning and accomplishing goals together"

It seems, from observation only, that their way can be quite adversarial at times within the relationship -- which causes us (me) some serious head scratching confusion at times.

How do you merge the two?

[Diplomacy]

Dave:

Well it is interesting.  I do not know if it is trying to put the cart before the horse in a lot of cases.  Break it into smaller attainable achievements.  Get rich slowly, and be patient.

Understand that the good days for the family, are taking care of the family.  I broke it all up into weekly terms, that is when it seemed to click.  Not wanting us to wind up in the situation her parents are in, that she understood.  Education is not free in the United States, that she understood. 

How much money is left over after the bills are paid, that is understood.  Get a big picture thing going, do not go beyond that at first.  Does it really matter that cable TV costs this and utilities cost this?  At some point, yes but short term no.  If you do, then there is a nasty path to go down.  We not need, usually comes into play.

You need to understand the economy there, and what is and is not a part of their economy.  Their is a gas bill, electric bill, grocery costs, cosmetic costs, clothing costs, activity costs for the children(if they can afford them), transportation costs, a mattress fund for some, the cost of gifts.

So I took all the common areas.  Broke them up and expanded upon them. 

Groceries as a collective, are the same.  Some things will cost more but others less at the market.  There is no negotiating, at the time of purchase.  Our newspaper on Sunday has advertisements of each markets discounts, then certain discount specials that the manufacturer is offering.(coupons)  We save money, by buying a lot of something and putting some in the freezer.  The freezer is as large as we feel we need.

Now that is an area they appreciate.  Being careful with money

Transportation- Where we live you need a car, to get to work and also for day to day needs.  We do not have a bus, train, or anything that you can ride to anywhere.  Learning to drive is the goal, nothing more.  Driving is independence, and freedom.  Learning to drive, is a series of goals.  Learning permit, driving school, driving test.

 

[SANDRO43]

It seems to me that male/female roles play a huge part for them whereas with us the lines are a little more blurred. "Man's job/woman's job" vs "Team as a single unit planning and accomplishing goals together"

I think it depends a lot on a woman's basic character. In my 3rd year of marriage (I 29, she 22 and a simple housewife then) I was transferred to IBM UK in London, the plan being 6 months there and the following 6 months in Palo Alto, CA. This exciting plan turned into a nightmare soon after, however I was able to emerge from the experience successfully while my ex didn't bat an eyelid at my (our) difficulties, and I gradually realised I had married a non-entity.

I was not expecting her to contribute much, but at least some effort at moral support and the 'fighting adversities shoulder-to-shoulder' attitude. A woman with a more generous soul might have started with little, and learnt on the way how she could expand on that, but alas it was not in her chords (a Bb minor rather than Bb major type ?).

[Caddydaddy]

I just talked about this subject with my Baby yesterday. She says, quote: people are different no matter what nationality. In case of divorcement maybe the two do not want and can not live together, maybe they deceived each other from first day (on several levels), maybe they never loved each other (!!), maybe the purpose was money, the reasons are different.
That's what she says and what followed I do not publish here but it was great!

About the materialism and how a marriage could work, I still see me as grey eminence, I am surely not a dictator and I am surely not "greedy" at all, but I want to have control of the overall financial situation to steer that ship through life. Of course we will discuss our maingoals together that everyone feels good with the decisions and of course it is "our" life. Then comes a possibilities and viability check, for big things only of course. I do not discuss about normal things which are included in a budget, she can do whatever she wants and I do not "control".

I could observe my Baby is pretty good in shopping, we did it often together as she was here, here just a live example: I took a liter milk $1.50, then I said see, they also have 2 liter packs for $2.05. "Oh let's bring it back and take this one, much better". That's my Baby  on the other hand I will get her a car  if she will arrive here one day, that's me 

In general I would say get the best value out of your money and if your Sweetheart thinks same, очень хорошо

[groovlstk]

Yahtzee!!!  This has been my thought as well, but really, I was beginning to think that I am totally out in left field with that.

Dave, if this is as important to you as it was to me, then you made the right decision to remain single last month. 

It seems to me that male/female roles play a huge part for them whereas with us the lines are a little more blurred. "Man's job/woman's job" vs "Team as a single unit planning and accomplishing goals together"

It seems, from observation only, that their way can be quite adversarial at times within the relationship -- which causes us (me) some serious head scratching confusion at times.

How do you merge the two?

Definitely true that there are sharper boundaries between what is a man's role and what is a woman's. But these shouldn't conflict with the idea of shared goals in life and arriving at those goals together.

[HiTech]

Also there is a different view point of what "Rich" means.

To an RW you are rich if you spend a lot of money and have a lot of showy things.

In the west we tend to view the term "RICH" as you net worth.

As an example I asked my wife, would you think someone is rich if they had 5 million cash in stored under the bed. Yes she said.
Would you think someone is rich if they had 5 Mil in bank. Yes she said.
Would you think someone is rich if they had 5 Mil in bank in the form of A CD that could not be withdrawn for 1 month. Yes she said, I suppose so.
Would you think someone is rich if they had 5 Mil in bank in the form of A CD that could not be withdrawn for 1 year. I am not sure she said.
Would you think someone is rich if they had a company that could be sold in 1 year for 5 Mil. No she said.

After this discussion she started to understand the term Liquidity , but could not see them as the same in terms of "Being Rich".

So to answer the question are RW materialist, the term really should be defined.
Does it mean , The belief that material things can bring you happiness?
Does it mean, Deriving pleasure from keeping up with the Jones?
Does it mean, Only a focus on money in all aspects of life, I.E. being extremely cheap can also be considered materialist.

The concept of cash flow when considering the value equation  , and what to purchase seems to elude her. I.E. She would believe that you should always buy the "BEST" (not necessarily the most expensive) because it is better value. She would rather wait, than purchase something for less to get buy.

[Diplomacy]

Groov:

Maybe that is where the point of contention is.  The gender role is a sharp contrast, to what many of the relationships that the men are used to.

I felt uncomfortable with a woman picking up my plate, and clearing everything.  Washing the dishes, so forth and so on.  It was not my home turf, and did not want to offend anyone either.  It was my society dictating my feelings, some of which just went way too far in America IMO.

Maybe it is hard to believe that someone enjoys doing things for you?  That is OK to appreciate someone doing things for you?

For me I had to be at peace with some things.  A lot of it, was really about my be uncomfortable about things.  

I like to help cook, and enjoy that time together.  Should I be mad, if she took her time and effort to make dinner for me?  No, I should appreciate the fact and I can always surprise her with making breakfast.  I can wash the dishes.

The early bird catches the worm, seems to not be sound wisdom with my fiance.

There are many ways to work as a family, and be a team.  They want a strong man and they are often strong women.  I have been told nothing short of 100 times now.  A strong woman is a good worker, wife, mother, and whatever else the family needs.

[Diplomacy]

HiTech:

Looks like you are having some great conversations, while waiting for the corn to finish. 

Perception is reality sometimes.  That is the way you need to ask the questions.  So now she feels you are not rich?  I guess the next time the CD matures, cash out.  How is everything going?  Sounds like it is go well.

[Misha]

Definitely true that there are sharper boundaries between what is a man's role and what is a woman's.

And, each woman's boundaries are differently defined. My wife pretty much insists that we share all housework 50/50.

Misha

[ambach123]

I don't have any large data to draw on, but here is my experience.

I have known two RW well, and a third I am scheduled to meet for ten days.

All three were highly educated, with several degrees and good jobs.

They all had heard, that finding a job in USA would be tough, they would have to work in a restaurant or a shop.
None were willing to accept that. They told me that they were unwilling to work in such a job.

I have a business, I can offer them a job, but not everyone here can do so.

Just my experience, anyone serious about an RW must discuss this. Can be a bone of contention between the couple.

[JR]

I don't have any large data to draw on, but here is my experience.

I have known two RW well, and a third I am scheduled to meet for ten days.

All three were highly educated, with several degrees and good jobs.

They all had heard, that finding a job in USA would be tough, they would have to work in a restaurant or a shop.
None were willing to accept that. They told me that they were unwilling to work in such a job.

I have a business, I can offer them a job, but not everyone here can do so.

Just my experience, anyone serious about an RW must discuss this. Can be a bone of contention between the couple.

I have back up what ambach says here. My X had two Master's and wouldn't even consider working in anything other than her field. Everything she could do outside her professional was beneath her. The big problem came when she wouldn't promote herself. I tried to help where I could but had no knowledge of her area or how to break into it.

[Diplomacy]

I agree with the issue of employment.  I have discussed this area.  My fiance has 2 friends here in America.  She informed me that she needed to find a job right away.  The job she was going to get, was cleaning homes. Fed to her by her friend that I barely know.

Her other friend is married to a man, that is does not make much money.  It was actually a very good conversation.  I explained that each situation in America is different, and in our case it would not be necessary to clean homes for money. 

Unless she wants to work for the sake of working, but she does have a job at a childcare center waiting for her.  Once she is legal to work, she can work there if she wants to.

I would caution hearing the words "are beneath them."  IMO, that is a red flag.  You should set expectations, that employment is starting over in America.  In many cases you have to start at the bottom, and prove yourself.   That being the case, you do have the opportunity to become anything your education and abilities allow you to be.

Some areas, education is not relevant in the USA.  Some areas need further education and exams to pass.

[ambach123]

I think the matter of employment by the RW should never be underestimated.

This can be the biggest hurdle in the relationship, and the main reason why they may be unwilling to move here. Most of the RW understand the employment situation but some don't, before coming here.

In my case, the " deep love " professed by the RW was partly due to the fact that they would not have to seek outside employment if I brought them here. They really loved that fact, more than I can describe here. That is a luxury many people may not have, their wives have to work.

Also in my experience, the RW don't take rejections well, which they would have to if they look for employment.

The other option may be seek less well educated women like hair dressers etc. whose skills are easily transferable.

[groovlstk]

I would caution hearing the words "are beneath them."  IMO, that is a red flag.  You should set expectations, that employment is starting over in America.  In many cases you have to start at the bottom, and prove yourself.   That being the case, you do have the opportunity to become anything your education and abilities allow you to be.

Don't think I can agree w/this. If you are unable to live well on one income and expect your RW to work, you should make it your business to give her the means to be able to resume her career, whether it requires additional study, settling for a very low salary at an entry-level job in her field, formal English lessons, etc. Yes, she'll have to start at the bottom rung but there's a huge divide between this and asking her to work at Walmart or as a waitress with a vague promise that she'll "move up" if she works hard.

If your gf/fiancee is a career woman and wants to continue to develop after arrival, you're in for a rough ride if your financial situation requires her to find work ASAP and she ends up stocking grocery store shelves. The entire process of emigrating is humbling and that confidence you see in her while visiting her home city will be kicked out from under her feet the moment she gets her I-94 stamped.

Regardless, this is one of many, many issues that needs to be discussed seriously and frequently during courtship.

[GoodOlBoy]

The other option may be seek less well educated women like hair dressers etc. whose skills are easily transferable.

IMO, seeking out an "uneducated" RW would be a huge mistake.

You are condemning her here in the USA, to a life of misery (underpayed and overworked).

Look, it takes a little "effort" on the man's part to get your RW's grades correctly transcribed, get her into the local University/Community College for some classes, put a word in for her with somebody you know who owns a business, but the emotional payoff his huge.

My wife came here with Masters degree's in Engineering and Economics (Economist).

She started as a bank teller. I knew the manager at our local bank. I walked into her office one day with my Marina and a resume (that we both prepared) and bang she had her first job, 6 months after she arrived in the GoodOl' USA.

She worked at the bank, received a couple of awards (cash), for her accuracy with money (never short).

A year later she put in for a staff accounting job at a very large company in Miami. With her education, credentials and recommendations from the bank, she was hired.

A year after that she put in for a Senior Accountant position (same company) and was promoted to her present position.

She has been working for a total of 3 years. It is not that difficult to do what she did.

As a man, you just have to be willing to take the time to help your RW. She cannot do it on her own at first.

The payoff after all of this is, a healthy normal relationship between 2 people. No manipulation and no controlling by either party.

My wife knows she can quit her job anytime she wants to and stay home and it will always be her decision to make.

Right now she doesn't want to stay home, she wants to work and interact with people.  


GOB