Statistical abberation

[Makkin]

   Maxxey,

   You still don't get it right?


   Makkin

[KenC]

Maxx,
You really do not understand how sick you are.  Now you are embarrassing yourself.  Your jealously is obvious.  Seek professional help.
KenC

[goforit]

KenC has, in essence, "donated" his experience for the benefit of research and a post mortem examination is necessary to distill the helpful observations.

Of particular interest in Ken's case are:

The large age difference'

His health issues;
 
His financial issues;

The child/no child issue;

What I'm not seeing as an issue in his case is any lack of bona fides on Lena's part from the beginning.

I'm also not seeing Ken's personality as an influencing factor unless he disagrees.

Ken's case more or less confirms some of my theories about the RW/AM marriage.

1) The greater the age difference, the greater the risk factor.

I have never been married to a Russian woman, so feel free to take what I say with a huge grain of salt, but I think everything in this post applies to all marriages, cross-cultural or otherwise.

I say to all men who marry with large age gaps regardless of ethnicity, keep yourself in top physical condition. I mean really work at it, even becoming freaky about it. Consider it the price you must pay to be married to a much younger woman. On a nutrition forum I run I have a section called "ageless bodies" and there are guys in their 50's and 60's who look fantastic, much better than most men of any age. Some of them are married to women very close to their age but some are in relationships with women who are much younger. It does matter to a woman and IMO, if a guy isn't willing to pay the price he probably should not consider a wide age gap in marriage.

1a) Young women in their twenties, should not be held accountable for their attitudes and decisions, particularly in regards to motherhood.  They are still maturing and can be expected to change over the ensuing years;

Any woman, with very few exceptions, who says in her twenties that she doesn't want to have children - ever - has not yet come to grips with reality. Any man, with very few exceptions, who believes a woman in her twenties when she says this, has not yet come to grips with reality.

2) Men have a tendency to over-estimate their physical appeal to women.  We also think appearance doesn't matter as much to RW as it does to AW.   This miscalculation is probably rooted in the fact that older, less attractive men can go to the FSU and bring back a young attractive woman as his wife.

This is right on. A very bad assumption with most men. And it is of particular importance, as I noted above, when there is a large age-gap. I see it all the time where men, feeling they have won the prize, no longer take care of themselves as they once did.

3) Men have a tendency to underestimate the effects that perceived wealth have on a woman, particularly one from less well-off countries.  No woman admits this effect directly but she reveals this truth indirectly if we will only recognize the signs.  This is a matter of hard-wiring in women just as a man is hard-wired to prefer a particular hair color or breast measurement in women.They and we talk about these preferences with our own gender but it seldom becomes a topic of intergender discussion.  (note that none of the RW on this thread have refuted the suggestion that Ken's current business instability has influenced the relationship).  I've witnessed this reality in my own and other couples' marriages/relationships many times.

Again, right on. I dealt with this subject in my second post to this forum many many months ago.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6403.msg116355#msg116355

There are deep solid biological reasons why this is true (i.e. hardwiring as you put it), and no amount of wishful thinking will ever do away with biology.

4) I skipped over health issues because it appears to me that this is the most devastating of all the issues because it elicits all the worst fears that women have about their husband:  -Poor health ages a man's appearance; poor health will make him a worse/failed provider for me and my children; and, poor health can lead to me being the head of the family shouldering alone the burdens that my husband  shoulders, and worse, should he live as an invalid, I will become completely overwhelmed.

Men, ask yourselves if a women who does not see herself strong enough to bear and raise children, can see herself strong enough to bathe you, dress you, feed you and administer your medicine 7 days a week with no relief.

Yes this is really related to the first point about age-gaps. And older man must be much more vigilant in this area than he might otherwise be. My sister married a man who is about my parents age. He was very youthful and energetic until he came down recently with a very debilitating illness. He is recovering now but my mom said it really aged him dramatically in a short period of time. They have a very young child at home (under 3) and she was recently pregnant again (though she lost the child). Poor health can be devastating in a marriage where the man is much older.

Ken, you have my heartfelt sympathy and I wish you the very best from here forward.

[Gator]

1) The greater the age difference, the greater the risk factor....Young women in their twenties...are still maturing and can be expected to change over the ensuing years

Yes, young RW are still "growing."  When they see the Western world and its opportunities, some may metamorphose.

2) Men have a tendency to over-estimate their physical appeal to women. 

Yes.  However, there are many highly visible signs about whether she feels some physical attraction. 

3) Men have a tendency to underestimate the effects that perceived wealth have on a woman, particularly one from less well-off countries.

 

Some men overestimate, believing money can buy love.  Money will rent a RW for a year or so, then the man must pay a high penalty for early termination of the lease even though the owner terminated.

No woman admits this effect directly but she reveals this truth indirectly if we will only recognize the signs.

 

Why the concern?  It is part of the package.  Just make sure there are other factors in her equation for deciding that you are her man.  I see this only as a concern for RW with a terminal case; terminal signs are as follows: 

-  "buy me" being her most spoken words,
-  the melted plastic credit card,
-  always wanting more (two sweaters rather than one),
-  selecting something based on highest price rather than value,
-  the lack of gratitude as if she were entitled to this,
-  sex (or the lack thereof) somehow paralleling what you bought her that day, etc. 

Upon experiencing any one of these signs, the man needs to sit her down and have a serious conversation.  Repeating and repeating them simply means that is time to say "paka" and move on happily to the next woman.

4) I skipped over health issues because it appears to me that this is the most devastating of all the issues because it elicits all the worst fears that women have about their husband:  -Poor health ages a man's appearance; poor health will make him a worse/failed provider for me and my children; and, poor health can lead to me being the head of the family shouldering alone the burdens that my husband  shoulders, and worse, should he live as an invalid, I will become completely overwhelmed. 

Some RW are in the game because they are widows.  These women do not want to repeat that experience.   Health and age will be very important to them.

Men, ask yourselves if a women ... can see herself strong enough to bathe you, dress you, feed you and administer your medicine 7 days a week with no relief.

RW are not AW with regard to this.  Do not underestimate their siege survivor instinct.  My wife is far from perfect yet one situation really impressed me - she was the sole hospice provider for weeks to her grandmother (and her mother did NOTHING).  Anyway, it does not concern me because I will do a Thelma and Louise as should we all.



 

[KenC]

Wise words Gator.

[goforit]

RW are not AW with regard to this.  Do not underestimate their siege survivor instinct.  My wife is far from perfect yet one situation really impressed me - she was the sole hospice provider for weeks to her grandmother (and her mother did NOTHING).  Anyway, it does not concern me because I will do a Thelma and Louise as should we all.

I'm not even sure this is a RW/AW thing. As you say your wife took care of her grandmother but her mom did nothing and yet presumably they are both RW.

This is a hard call. I have seen women from all cultures who wouldn't give a second thought to taking care of an elderly parent or spouse. I have seen it just the opposite as well. I have also seen women who would not leave, but played around on the side because of their spouse's health issues.

[MarkLeftTX]

Hey Ken,

Sorry to hear that you and Lena are divorcing. That's hard to go through at any age, and in any situation.

I never give anyone advice on marriage. I figure I lost my high horse about the time of my second divorce.

Divorce though, that is something I know about!

I've done it twice. I would caution you: "There is no such thing as an amicable divorce." There are only degrees of painful. It doesn't matter how hard women try -- they are emotional creatures. She will face a whirlwind of emotions during a divorce, and some of the collateral damage will come your way.

In both my marriages, my wives wanted the divorce. In both of them, they had someone else lined up, and had cheated on me. Didn't matter. Things got rocky before they were over.

I get a sense that you had some of it as well by the comment that you had to cut all ties for awhile. That's smart. It's also wise to keep your personal life close to the vest.

And, FWIW, I thought I was over my divorce about 14 months (and three girlfriends) before I was. I see now that I was trying to "show my ex wife" I was still a catch with my first several choices as dating material. Stupid. Immature. And embarrassing to admit.

Thank God I went through that before I met Viktoriya though. I was finally out of love with my ex-wife by the time I met her. If you had known me before then (and you did actually) I would have sworn that I was OK, and that the divorce never really affected me.

B***sh***t.

A divorce always affects you.

Good luck.

[MarkLeftTX]

I had to comment on this post, which I thought was quite good:

A lot of words have been written here wondering why KenC posted his story.  Who can say for sure except Ken?  But here's where the great value lies for all of us, especially those who are in the seeking/selecting stage:

I'll be honest, I don't know why anyone posts intimate details here. One thing I learned was that the personal cost of making yourself a target far outweighs whatever benefits if comraderie you might have  -- at least for me. When posters attacked my wife without having ever met her, I got so mad I couldn't sleep. Finally I realized that the problem was my own making, and the solution was close at hand: all I had to do was pull the plug. So I did...

I can't fathom having my divorce discussed and analyzed online...

As to your lessons learned section...

1) The greater the age difference, the greater the risk factor.

Probably true, but also probably the most ignored thing ever. I confess, when I was starting out, I regularly asked myself: Is this woman worth travelling 7000 miles for? In other words, if I were to find a Russian woman, she had to be "better" than an American one... why I believed that, I honestly can't tell you... but I did. And, for most, "Younger is better."

1a) Young women in their twenties, should not be held accountable for their attitudes and decisions, particularly in regards to motherhood.  They are still maturing and can be expected to change over the ensuing years;

Ironically, I don't think it's age. I think its motherhood. Something happens in a woman when she becomes a mother. Children change perspective. Usually that equates to a "woman in her twenties" but not always...

2) Men have a tendency to over-estimate their physical appeal to women. 

Oh Lord is this true! I see it all the time. I remember reading one guy's post that he was fine for a younger wife (he was 60, she was 30) because he could still do 50 pushups every night.

There is a Russian expression: "A man simply has to be better than a monkey." I hear it quoted a lot. Viktoriya tells me that there is a second part to it that the women use: "as long as the monkey is tall and good looking."

Looks matter. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something...

Even women who THINK they will be OK with a lesser looking man eventually change their mind.

This may be a strange metaphor, but its a little like an animal with it's foot caught in a trap. It will do anything to get away. If given the choice between staying in the trap or losing its foot, it will happily sacrifice its foot. But if the trap is loosened, things change.

I think a lot of women come over here happy to "escape to America." They are well intentioned. They plan to stay married. But once they are here, and they see other choices, they start thinking: "Do I really still need to chew my foot off?"
 

3) Men have a tendency to underestimate the effects that perceived wealth have on a woman

True again. The same agencies that are telling us all Russian women are beautiful and submissive (oh that is a funny one! I have yet to meet a submissive russian woman!) these agencies are selling the women that all Americans are rich. America IS rich, but it tends to be a lot of little things that add up -- which is not what they are expecting.

[Gator]

MarkLeftTx, It is splendid to see you post again.  Your writing style is superb, and you always have special insights to share, little gems that would perhaps be missed by many, yet part of a loving relationship.

I'll be honest, I don't know why anyone posts intimate details here. One thing I learned was that the personal cost of making yourself a target far outweighs whatever benefits if comraderie you might have  -- at least for me. When posters attacked my wife without having ever met her, I got so mad I couldn't sleep. Finally I realized that the problem was my own making, and the solution was close at hand: all I had to do was pull the plug. So I did...

KenC's candor is remarkable, yet he is not sharing intimate details, nor do I want to know, and we certainly do not need to know.  Besides, so much is involved that we could never comprehend the correct context. 

Mark, I recall your situation.  It happened in my early days after my first trip. You were justifiably enthusiastic about your trip, particularly falling in love.  That is more understandable today after reading your first post above.

You wanted to celebrate your joy.  I thought your actions and words were appropriate and beautiful,  I am sure it made many a newbie feel like getting on the next plane.  And I still recall the word "shudder,"  which was absolutely perfect.

Some numskulls immediately attacked you.  Yes, it was an attack.  Being brand new to RW forums, I had no idea about personalities, situations or history.   I assumed it was jealousy or Bible Belt mentality.  Whatever, I imagine those people no longer participate in RW forums because they never were suited for RW.  Their attacks turned something beautiful into something contentious.  That was our loss.  At times RW discussions can sink to the lowest common denominator, and that bothers me.

When KenC came forward with this latest chapter of his life, I had three thoughts.  One, this will help him reach closure.  Two, there are some possible parallels here for my own marriage, at least it will challenge me to think.  My third thought was, "Oh oh!" knowing how KenC had ruffled some feathers over the years.   

A couple of attack dogs came out, yet they did not gain momentum and the discussion stayed on a higher plane.   Maybe we are maturing.  Maybe some things are sacred.  Maybe we have an ounce of decency.  Too bad that was not the case when you shared your joy.

[GoodOlBoy]

When posters attacked my wife without having ever met her, I got so mad I couldn't sleep. Finally I realized that the problem was my own making, and the solution was close at hand: all I had to do was pull the plug. So I did...

So if I may ask....Is there some recent event(s) that have brought you back into the RWD "fold"? 


GOB

[Maxx2]

February 9th 2007

Hello Dave

 
As I may have mentioned to you in our conversations, the only reason I came on any of the Internet discussion groups (RW-G, RWD, etc.) was to try and plug Olga's business (help her out). It worked pretty good at first, but the more time I spent on the groups the more disgusted I got with the whole Russian "MOB" deal, especially with the so-called men purportedly in search of Russian brides. (More like a bunch of psychotic perverts, losers, and other social misfits in search of Lord only knows what.) I'm sure I don't need to tell you that. The last few years it became harder and harder for me to hide my disgust and loathing for the "customers" in the interest of Olga's business. As you may recall, it got to the point where I would start calling them on their denial, unrealistic expectations, and other flaws publicly, which wasn't exactly the best advertising for Olga. Then I backed off and we tried to get Olga online to represent herself and plug her own business. She became disgusted even faster than I did. We have finally come to the realization that we have nothing in common with 99% of the people involved in the whole Russian "MOB" thing. Olga's business was failing because we are too honest and too candid. It's a business that is only profitable for con artists, liars and sharks. We give up.

As a result, there is absolutely no reason for either of us to participate in any of the "groups" anymore. We've deleted the bookmarks from our "Favorites" and that's the end of it. It's a liberating, cleansing feeling. We both feel very relieved and happy. We're optimistic about the future.

Please do stay in touch. We no longer have the common thread of RWD to tie us together - we will have to be like "normal" friends. I think that will be good for us both.

I'm not sure if I will continue with my ideas to write about my experiences with the Russian "MOB" scene. Maybe I will. Maybe, after getting the extra distance away from it that this change is going to give us, I will just decide  to wash the stink off myself altogether and walk away from it for good.

Feel free to post or pass on this message, excerpts from it, or your summary of it, on any group or to any one who cares. You have my permission if you think it will be worthwhile. I trust your judgment and ability to paraphrase accurately.

And as your friend, I would like to suggest you consider similarly dropping out of the RW Internet circle, cleansing yourself as well. You are a good guy, and really above that crowd in my opinion. That does not mean you have to forego the idea of someday finding a nice Russian wife. I think you can do that without traveling in said circles. In fact, I think your chances of success are much greater if you don't. Don't forget, I did not even know about Internet RW discussion groups or the "scene" until after I had already married Olga. Ignorance can result in bliss. 

Doug Salem
 

[facetrock]

Doug(RIP) is right Dave. You should leave here and cleanse yourself of us lecherous old male whores. Good luck in your future

[GoodOlBoy]

February 9th 2007.....
Feel free to post or pass on this message, excerpts from it, or your summary of it, on any group or to any one who cares. You have my permission if you think it will be worthwhile. I trust your judgment and ability to paraphrase accurately.......Doug Salem 

Maxx2, I don't know if Mr. Salem (RIP) actually wrote this paragraph or not, BUT...I am sure he didn't have his own demise in mind when he sent you this correspondence.

Please stop.

This is really in bad taste.


GOB

[Vaughn]

I always held Doug and Olga Salem in high regard - and I take exception at this being posted
posthumously and publicly in an obvious attempt to achieve an end.

Remind me, Dave, never to correspond with you. After all, my wife will probably outlive
me, just as Olga has Doug.

Vaughn

[KenC]

Mark,
Thank you for your kind words.

What you may not understand is that I am giving this information in past tense, so there is no guessing as to the outcome.  A few comments:

"There is no such thing as an amicable divorce." There are only degrees of painful. It doesn't matter how hard women try -- they are emotional creatures. She will face a whirlwind of emotions during a divorce, and some of the collateral damage will come your way.

"Amicable" is defined as "peaceable, harmonious and friendly" by the dictionary.  Most of our actions have fallen into those categories too.  Has there been pain?  Tons of pain and sadness from both quarters.  Has there been some emotional outbursts?  Of course, again from both sides.  But the bottom line is that we have untangled our lives in a way so as to benefit both of us mutually.  The splitting up of material things was no problem as well as the settlement agreement.  We have even changed some things to the betterment of the other after all was agreed to.  I never thought a divorce could be amicable either, but ours has been so as much as one could ever expect.

I'll be honest, I don't know why anyone posts intimate details here. One thing I learned was that the personal cost of making yourself a target far outweighs whatever benefits if camaraderie you might have  -- at least for me

Believe me, I thought long and hard on this before I posted.  I decided to do so, because I wanted to present the facts that not all RW are vindictive conniving b!tches that will resort to false DV charges or other unsavory tactics.  I also wanted to explain my absence here and to open the door for posts on my future plans.  Quite frankly, there has been some very good feedback from the members here that has not only helped me analyze and understand different reasons for the breakdown of our marriage but also how to utilize the logic when going forward.  Of course there were a few that choose to use this time to give me a kick too, but that goes with the territory.  But I also think the facts of my divorce might help others think about the issues involved and help them in their current relationships or to make better choices in the future.

I remember the flak you got from your past posting of meeting Viktorya, and it was terrible.  Each of us need to ponder how much detail they will make public here and act accordingly.

I get a sense that you had some of it as well by the comment that you had to cut all ties for awhile. That's smart. It's also wise to keep your personal life close to the vest

I cut the communication with Lena for both of our benefit.  With constant communication, we both slipped in and out of our past relationship.  This only led to one or the other revisiting the pain of separating.  It was time for both of us to let go and move on separately, independent of each other.  I saw no value in reliving the pain over and over again.

I am sure that there will be some future sadness when we both recollect our relationship, but it is best for us to handle it in our own way independent of each other.  Am I "over" Lena?  Not yet, but I will not let this event overwhelm me any more.  I will try my best to focus on the future, not the past.

Again, thank you for your insight on this.
KenC

[Admin]

I always held Doug and Olga Salem in high regard - and I take exception at this being posted
pothumously and publicly in an obvious attempt to achieve an end.

Remind me, Dave, never to correspond with you. After all, my wife will probably outlive
me, just as Olga has Doug.

Vaughn

I take exception as well. There is so much more to the 'Doug Salem story' than what Dave has posted. Out of respect for those who are no longer around to respond, the clear-minded person would NEVER dredge up such a thing - IF it is even true.

I too knew Doug - and we talked on occasion and exchanged numerous emails. I heard from MANY people following Doug's untimely death - at least some of them knew Doug vastly better than Dave. There was a time for reflection on all that was Doug's life, and that time has clearly passed.

But then, Dave's post pays absolutely NO CONSIDERATION to Doug or the family Doug left behind.

Dave's post is aimed at his sole self-interest - using what is purported to be the words of a dead man to advance his argument because Dave, himself, cannot.

Dave - preying on the perceived credibility of the deceased because you've none of your own is worse than pathetic - it is ghoulish.

Get professional help Dave. Seriously! You really do need it - and soon.

- Dan

[bobb]

...  Each of us need to ponder how much detail they will make public here and act accordingly.

This thought should be etched in stone for all people on this board.  In my first attempt I wrote too many 'personal' descriptions in my trip reports.  I am a wiser man now - at least in this regard.  This was much more prevalent on RWG, compared to what I have read here since I joined RWD this past fall. 

[MarkLeftTX]

So if I may ask....Is there some recent event(s) that have brought you back into the RWD "fold"? 

No, not really. I get the RWD gazette emailed to me. I usually read through it and ignore it, but when I read about Ken's divorce, it spurred me to come on here.

I know Ken and Lena a little. We had dinner once in San Diego -- after my first trip to Russia, and after I had given up on Russian Women. (I was heading to Brazil).

Lena was a sweetie and kept insisting that I should go back to Russia.

After Viktoriya and I were married, we both met Ken and Lena in SD when I went there on a business trip.

So, that made this all more personal for me.

I'm not "back". Not like I was. I was insane... I probably posted ten times a day on the forums... Ahhh... those were the days... money for nothing and an easy job...

Now I am launching a new company and barely have time for the important things in life... let alone time to wax philosophical on foreign love -- or offer advice to people I don't even know...

[Jumper]

Ken-
I just caught this thread- havn't been around here much, just busy with family and life..and little time to read, much less post here.


 I'm very sorry to hear this,
and wish the very best for both you and Lena.
 

[Markus]

Well, I cannot be nice anymore. So, I will say that I don't blame Maxx2 in this thoughts and don't
speak badly against his approach. Most people reading at this point don't know the history of Kenc and his arrogant,
condescending, and rude statements to people. Kenc and JB both were, well, let's says it's a word that I should
not type here. I created the "Recipe for and Idiot" about JB, and it was deleted because I was so blunt. So, I've
learned that I shouldn't be that way now. What's JB got to do with this? Nothing. I just thought I would check to
see if he's still out there.

I asked Kenc questions over 5 years ago about what things would be like for him in the future. Why did
I ask these questions to him? It's because he was coming against me for proposing during the 1st time I met my wife.
In July, we will have been married 5 years. Words cannot explain how I was blessed in finding such a good lady. My
life is her. From his perspective, I just wrote to some gal, met her and proposed. Oh, I should mention that she
didn't speak English. I tried debating some Immigration lawyer here on that subject and he took his toys and went home.
He wouldn't answer my questions on the subject. So, I had 2 negatives against me, according to Kenc. Kenc should
have been thinking about his future and not mine. My wife is 13 years younger than me, not 25 like his was.

Kenc wasn't worried the worst bit about him targeting a younger gal. Did you notice I used the word "target?"
Kenc's justification of his marriage to a younger gal is that they "just fell in love." Have you ever thought about
who made the effort to make the 1st contact? Oh I've asked this question before and it's the same bullcrap he
uses to justify him targeting a younger gal. Now, my ages might be off some, but he was around 45 going for a
20 year old. I don't blame him a bit as I'm 48 now and 20 year old ladies look real fine. IMO, he took advantage
the of fact that WM can get younger women in the FSU. I'm sure there will be someone to try and prove that
fact wrong. But, a fact is a fact. Kenc has proved it.

Kenc made a good choice in beauty. Does anyone remember the story about while they were at a restaurant
some guy with his wife kept getting free glances at Kenc's wife. Kenc walked over to the guy's table and
asked him if he wanted a photo. When you're a old dude with a young hottie, can you blame Kenc for the
reaction. I credit Kenc for his protectionism, but, he showed his jealousy. He knew he was too old for her.
Now, if anyone questioned him about the age difference, whatever you were doing it was wrong. He did this
to justify the fact he targeted a young hottie, he knew she was a hottie, and he knew that everyone else
knew she was a hottie.

Kenc used words to me such as "that's a plan that will work." He was being sarcastic and meant just the
opposite. But, I can state a fact and say that his plan was a plan that didn't work. I'm not being sarcastic
but stating fact.

Can other people with big age differences make it work? Of course. But, the age difference is more of a
chance for ruin than proposing during the 1st date and targeting a lady that doesn't speak much English.
At least the the lady has a chance to learn English. As far as proposing during the 1st meeting, well
start a thread.

As far as Maxx2 is concerned. He is only treating Kenc like Kenc treated him. I have no problem with him
using Doug Salem. Maxx2 would not have posted Doug without his permission, even though he has departed
this life. Keep in mind that when you mess with Maxx2, he knows things that most on this board don't.
His history goes back and he has much experience in supporting his position. I do like that fact that Maxx2
did wish the best for Kenc. Kenc didn't respond so kindly. But, Maxx2 did offer a good question.

Kenc, will you bring your next lady over on a student visa?

Mark

[Shadow]

Markus,

What do you think your situation will be in 5 years ?

[Kuna]

Well, I cannot be nice anymore. So, I will say that I don't blame Maxx2 in this thoughts and don't
speak badly against his approach. Most people reading at this point don't know the history of Kenc and his arrogant,
condescending, and rude statements to people. Kenc and JB both were, well, let's says it's a word that I should
not type here. I created the "Recipe for and Idiot" about JB, and it was deleted because I was so blunt. So, I've
learned that I shouldn't be that way now. What's JB got to do with this? Nothing. I just thought I would check to
see if he's still out there.

I asked Kenc questions over 5 years ago about what things would be like for him in the future. Why did
I ask these questions to him? It's because he was coming against me for proposing during the 1st time I met my wife.
In July, we will have been married 5 years. Words cannot explain how I was blessed in finding such a good lady. My
life is her. From his perspective, I just wrote to some gal, met her and proposed. Oh, I should mention that she
didn't speak English. I tried debating some Immigration lawyer here on that subject and he took his toys and went home.
He wouldn't answer my questions on the subject. So, I had 2 negatives against me, according to Kenc. Kenc should
have been thinking about his future and not mine. My wife is 13 years younger than me, not 25 like his was.

Kenc wasn't worried the worst bit about him targeting a younger gal. Did you notice I used the word "target?"
Kenc's justification of his marriage to a younger gal is that they "just fell in love." Have you ever thought about
who made the effort to make the 1st contact? Oh I've asked this question before and it's the same bullcrap he
uses to justify him targeting a younger gal. Now, my ages might be off some, but he was around 45 going for a
20 year old. I don't blame him a bit as I'm 48 now and 20 year old ladies look real fine. IMO, he took advantage
the of fact that WM can get younger women in the FSU. I'm sure there will be someone to try and prove that
fact wrong. But, a fact is a fact. Kenc has proved it.

Kenc made a good choice in beauty. Does anyone remember the story about while they were at a restaurant
some guy with his wife kept getting free glances at Kenc's wife. Kenc walked over to the guy's table and
asked him if he wanted a photo. When you're a old dude with a young hottie, can you blame Kenc for the
reaction. I credit Kenc for his protectionism, but, he showed his jealousy. He knew he was too old for her.
Now, if anyone questioned him about the age difference, whatever you were doing it was wrong. He did this
to justify the fact he targeted a young hottie, he knew she was a hottie, and he knew that everyone else
knew she was a hottie.

Kenc used words to me such as "that's a plan that will work." He was being sarcastic and meant just the
opposite. But, I can state a fact and say that his plan was a plan that didn't work. I'm not being sarcastic
but stating fact.

Can other people with big age differences make it work? Of course. But, the age difference is more of a
chance for ruin than proposing during the 1st date and targeting a lady that doesn't speak much English.
At least the the lady has a chance to learn English. As far as proposing during the 1st meeting, well
start a thread.

As far as Maxx2 is concerned. He is only treating Kenc like Kenc treated him. I have no problem with him
using Doug Salem. Maxx2 would not have posted Doug without his permission, even though he has departed
this life. Keep in mind that when you mess with Maxx2, he knows things that most on this board don't.
His history goes back and he has much experience in supporting his position. I do like that fact that Maxx2
did wish the best for Kenc. Kenc didn't respond so kindly. But, Maxx2 did offer a good question.

Kenc, will you bring your next lady over on a student visa?

Mark

Gosh the precious little Princesses really get worked up about this don't they?

I need not speak for KenC but I will say a few things...

1. I don't ever recall Ken promoting large age gap relationships

2. I well remember KenC and jb using the cluebat frequently with a few current and former members around the time I started this pursuit.  I thought it was over the top at times but I never thought it was wrong. I still don't.  I listened to their advice and found what I was looking for.  Others have dropped their pom poms and are still looking for them

3. I've seen Maxx posting on this and other boards for a LONG time...  and thinking back I can not think of one valuable piece of advice he has ever given out.  Maybe I'm wrong... maybe he has wisdom to share for some... but I doubt it.  If Maxx is developing a fan base we're all lesser men than we'd like to think!

4. A comment now directly for "Markus"...  no matter what has happened in the past, only a lower class citizen would kick a man, any man, when he is down.  You sir, have just shown the fabric from which you are made.

[KenC]

Well, I cannot be nice anymore. So, I will say that I don't blame Maxx2 in this thoughts and don't
speak badly against his approach. Most people reading at this point don't know the history of Kenc and his arrogant,
condescending, and rude statements to people. Kenc and JB both were, well, let's says it's a word that I should
not type here. I created the "Recipe for and Idiot" about JB, and it was deleted because I was so blunt. So, I've
learned that I shouldn't be that way now. What's JB got to do with this? Nothing. I just thought I would check to
see if he's still out there.

I asked Kenc questions over 5 years ago about what things would be like for him in the future. Why did
I ask these questions to him? It's because he was coming against me for proposing during the 1st time I met my wife.
In July, we will have been married 5 years. Words cannot explain how I was blessed in finding such a good lady. My
life is her. From his perspective, I just wrote to some gal, met her and proposed. Oh, I should mention that she
didn't speak English. I tried debating some Immigration lawyer here on that subject and he took his toys and went home.
He wouldn't answer my questions on the subject. So, I had 2 negatives against me, according to Kenc. Kenc should
have been thinking about his future and not mine. My wife is 13 years younger than me, not 25 like his was.

Kenc wasn't worried the worst bit about him targeting a younger gal. Did you notice I used the word "target?"
Kenc's justification of his marriage to a younger gal is that they "just fell in love." Have you ever thought about
who made the effort to make the 1st contact? Oh I've asked this question before and it's the same bullcrap he
uses to justify him targeting a younger gal. Now, my ages might be off some, but he was around 45 going for a
20 year old. I don't blame him a bit as I'm 48 now and 20 year old ladies look real fine. IMO, he took advantage
the of fact that WM can get younger women in the FSU. I'm sure there will be someone to try and prove that
fact wrong. But, a fact is a fact. Kenc has proved it.

Kenc made a good choice in beauty. Does anyone remember the story about while they were at a restaurant
some guy with his wife kept getting free glances at Kenc's wife. Kenc walked over to the guy's table and
asked him if he wanted a photo. When you're a old dude with a young hottie, can you blame Kenc for the
reaction. I credit Kenc for his protectionism, but, he showed his jealousy. He knew he was too old for her.
Now, if anyone questioned him about the age difference, whatever you were doing it was wrong. He did this
to justify the fact he targeted a young hottie, he knew she was a hottie, and he knew that everyone else
knew she was a hottie.

Kenc used words to me such as "that's a plan that will work." He was being sarcastic and meant just the
opposite. But, I can state a fact and say that his plan was a plan that didn't work. I'm not being sarcastic
but stating fact.

Can other people with big age differences make it work? Of course. But, the age difference is more of a
chance for ruin than proposing during the 1st date and targeting a lady that doesn't speak much English.
At least the the lady has a chance to learn English. As far as proposing during the 1st meeting, well
start a thread.

As far as Maxx2 is concerned. He is only treating Kenc like Kenc treated him. I have no problem with him
using Doug Salem. Maxx2 would not have posted Doug without his permission, even though he has departed
this life. Keep in mind that when you mess with Maxx2, he knows things that most on this board don't.
His history goes back and he has much experience in supporting his position. I do like that fact that Maxx2
did wish the best for Kenc. Kenc didn't respond so kindly. But, Maxx2 did offer a good question.

Kenc, will you bring your next lady over on a student visa?

Mark

Having a bad day, Mark?

I do take exception to Maxx' post here because his attacks here have been based on lies, false innuendos and "facts" not in evidence fueled by his desperation to obtain some sort of accolades for himself by invoking revenge for some past peccadilloes.  His efforts to promote his standing in this community here has litterally blown up in his face.  He has shown himself to be small minded with a viewpoint that is severely distorted from his vantage point of the sewer he has insisted to immerse himself in since his divorce. 

So desperate to try and regain his imagined prestige here (after he got his azz handed to him by me and many others here for his ignorant posts) he posted Doug Salem's letter to him.  The purpose of posting this letter was obviously an attempt to try and restore Maxx' imagined prestige in this community.  This was "obvious" because the letter had nothing to do with me, or divorce, only as an endorsement of Maxx and unfortunately it included insults of this very same community.  How anyone can come here and support this twisted and narcissistic behavior is beyond my comprehension.

Yet you come here with your own twisting of the facts in support of Maxx to seek your own measure of revenge.  I won't make a comment about the lack of class you have exhibited but I will address the twisting of the facts:

Five years ago I labled you a "one week wonder" because you went to the fsu, met a woman with whom you could not communicate, and got engaged after a few meetings.  My purpose was to make you think about how little you knew of this woman before you married her.  I will not take any credit for it, but you did just that in the time pending her visa.  Kudos to you, because it appears as though you found a fine woman and are enjoying your marriage.  But as you yourself have pointed out, you were not a true "one week wonder" as you put forth the effort to know your lady before you took the actual step into marriage.  The timeline is a bit backward in my mind (engaged first and then getting to know the woman) but at least you didn't marry a stranger.  I wish you only continued success.

As for me "targeting a much younger woman", you and I have had many a debate on this and you know that I did not "target" anyone.  I impulsively called Lena on the phone when the opportunity presented itself.  I spoke with her almost on a daily basis for months before I went to meet her.  My fascination, initially, was to speak with someone in Russia about Russia, a subject very interesting to me because of my heritage.  As I have said many times before, we avoided any talk in the romantic vein for most of that period.  It wasn't until we connected on an intellectual level and became friends that our relationship headed toward anyting romantic.  I have also stated here that the huge negative in pursuing a relationship with Lena was her young age.  I have always warned others here of the perils of marrying a much younger woman and called our happy marriage an "aberration" which obviously only had a ten year lifespan.

The restaurant incident which you describe was less about jealousy and more about rudeness and impropriety.  The man in question creeped everyone out at our table including my friends 12 year old son.  This man's constant gawking was done behind his own wife and children's backs that he was dinning with.  Jealousy? Not a chance.  Correcting improper behavior? Yes.

As for your crack regarding bringing Lena over on a student visa, I will say that was a very smart thing I did.  I was not committed to marrying her at that time due to the large age difference.  In fact, we had never really discussed marriage before Lena arrived.  The student visa was a way for us to spend more time together without the 90 day K-1 visa clock ticking to marry.  The stress free time together, without the commitment to marry on the governments time schedule was a very good plan, thank you.

It is too bad that you have taken this opportunity to gloat about how you were right and I was wrong.  Not only is it in poor taste, but as pointed out, your "facts" are distorted and you have yet to reach 10 years.  Again, I only wish you future success in your marriage, but we too were happy at 5.  Anything can happen.
KenC

[GoodOlBoy]

So desperate to try and regain his imagined prestige here (after he got his azz handed to him by me and many others here for his ignorant posts) he posted Doug Salem's letter to him.  The purpose of posting this letter was obviously an attempt to try and restore Maxx' imagined prestige in this community.  This was "obvious" because the letter had nothing to do with me, or divorce, only as an endorsement of Maxx and unfortunately it included insults of this very same community. 

The thing that bothers me most about this "supposed" letter is that it is unverifiable.

The author is deceased.

He may have never written such words or maybe this was just a "bad" moment for him and it doesn't fully reflect his feelings about our community.

We will NEVER know.

But you know.... whatever....It is just poor taste and crass to do such a thing to Mr.Salem (RIP) and "our" community.

Just my 2 cents.


GOB

[Maxx2]

Send me an e-mail address GOB and I will forward it to you.