Statistical abberation

[Makkin]

Ecocks,


   I understand what points you are making and validity appears evident on some level if the playing field can be presumed as level.


   People go through all types of experiences in life and those that make the best way as in a sea faring experience are those that choose to move forward at a greater pace. Some folks stop the boat and start complaining as if they can no longer captain the boat for which is the life they live. Ken is making movement in a positive way whereas the other person is not in my opinion.

   While the other person glances at the boat going past him he may be thinking it unfare that he is not moving at all. As he glances from side to side with clenched fists and white nuckles it comes to his mind that possibly he is and has been doing something wrong. Unlike Ken's boat which is also known as his life the other boat may need to be hauled to port and then given a burial because the salt water damage of the heart may be too extensive and without a good anchor he shall stay adrift.

Makkin

[ECOCKS]

One or two seem particularly like they are enjoying twisting the knife or burying the hatchet in KenC's skull (hope the FSUW are enjoying this impromptu lesson in analogies) yet more than a couple have commented that KenC's style has been uncaring and harsh over the years.

I am merely observing that once again, we are getting caught up in the conflict between individuals and groups, thereby ceasing to move forward or glean any positive info. The topic is KenC's situation and his actions leading up to this may be a valid discussion point. Calling each other names or forming up battlelines isn't helping anyone with their FSUW relationship.

[I/O]

I admit to being at a loss in trying to understand the value, as some seem to be attempting on both sides, in trying to establish whether or not KenC deserves his current circumstances because he chose to step outside the “norm” and whether or not he deserves to be kicked just slightly because someone perceives they were kicked by him previously. Where or what is the value in this? Perhaps a few think they can convert KenC into their style of a “Better Man” by convincing him to humble himself and tell them they were/are right and he was/is wrong. From the couple of times I spoke to both Ken and Lena by telephone I am certain that would not happen in either case. To my way of thinking, strange to some though it may be, the real value is in seeing where mistakes were made relating SPECIFICALLY to the subject marriage or former marriage in question and maybe learning something from them.

KenC: Your former wife was perhaps a young Russian women with a chess playing, patient Russian mind, she played the learning English game with the marriage agency, she found a willing participant, he carried her across the threshold of immigration to her chosen location, he carried her across growing up and fielding a further education, she read him well and advised she would be content childless, she gained her citizenship, in essence she was somewhat spoiled for many years and when the time was right for her to make her own way in the world, she discarded her means of transport hitherto. Some will see it this way and some will see it other ways. You will see it how you choose to see it and how you choose to see it will be the main influencing factor on the rest of your life. You have said you would never believe Lena preplanned any of this from early on and you may or may not be right. Frankly, I think that is irrelevant anyway because you’re reasonably sharp and if for example, it was that way and you didn’t pick it at the outset, most guys going this route won’t pick it either. Further it becomes more irrelevant when you think it though because the result remains the same, within this community and perhaps wider, a once iconic marriage has concluded and regardless of how positive you are and negative others are, the bottom line is something good has finished and that is unfortunate.
 
On a very personal note, I want to warn you to be prepared that your personal low point may not have yet passed or for that matter have even been reached. I relate my own experience of exiting a 10 year marriage, going through hell on the way out and for a few months after, although there was much more brawling, particularly financially, than in your situation. A year or so out, I was on the up and pretty much swept all before me and dragged a few along with me. I was, after much introspect and soul searching, together with a now healthy social life, both locally and internationally, ready to even move forward in the romantic arena if that was the twist life would take.

To my shock and almost personal demise, it was not the struggle I sometimes wondered if I might have when one meets their ex for the first time with their new partner or whatever, that was well past and dealt with (I actually genuinely felt sorry for the poor silly bastard). It was when I first met my now wife. The reality of knowing I had met someone capable of handling me on most every level and as a result could very possibly become my life partner that brought about such depth of reflection and memory that to be brutally honest, I all but lost it completely. It was not what was happening to me, but rather the fact that it happened at all being the most difficult thing to come to terms with. I realised I was not as bullet proof emotionally as I had once thought and I certainly wasn't as bullet proof physically as I had always been (That's another story).

I am actually thankful that our early relationship was over vast distance with few meetings well spread apart because I doubt even Mrs I/O could have stood watching what was happening and drawn any other conclusion than he is still in love with his ex, which I absolutely understand, I was not. I never sought assistance or counseling and do not regret that, because it was all too evident both then and now that it was a delayed reaction brought about by the "steel" I applied to myself throughout the actual separation and divorce. It took until I was really under the gun sights of facing personally emotional decisions again for the last of it and perhaps the worst to finally come out on my lap.

Fortunately, all of that was very short lived in the bigger picture but FWIW it wasn't pleasant and you would be wise to be prepared for something similar. It may never happen in your case, I sincerely hope it doesn't, we are all different and I think in my case it may have perhaps been cultivated in the first instance by my personal determination to move on and perhaps even a pride in being the first to do so. For whatever it may be worth, don't fall for the same trap. Take your time, as much time as it takes.

I/O

[KenC]

One or two seem particularly like they are enjoying twisting the knife or burying the hatchet in KenC's skull (hope the FSUW are enjoying this impromptu lesson in alanogies) yet more than a couple have commented that KenC's style has been uncaring and harsh over the years.
I am merely observing that once again, we are getting caught up in the conflict between individuals and groups, thereby ceasing to move forward or glean any positive info. The topic is KenC's situation and his actions leading up to this may be a valid discussion point. Calling each other names or forming up battlelines isn't helping anyone with their FSUW relationship.

Ecocks,
I fail to see how my posting persona is relevant to the subject at hand.  And you seem to overlook the fact that Maxx has taken liberties with the facts and has projected his own miserable experiences onto my story here.  His negative input here has been supported with false references to the past, facts not in evidence and refuted, quotes attributed to me or by others made to me that never happened, or by interjecting unsupported negative innuendos.  You see he is desperately trying to twist the events in MY life to fit his own negative viewpoints on this process.  Maxx has allowed his divorce from a RW impact (destroy?) his life in a negative way seemingly forever.  His motivations for his actions are that Maxx found it too difficult to believe that I had a relatively long and happy marriage that ended with an amicable and respectful divorce.  In his efforts to seek retribution, Maxx has exposed himself as a petty and smallish man.

I do take exception to my style being "uncaring and harsh over the years" however.  Harsh?  Yes, at times I have been harsh and sometimes step over the line in the heat of debate, but never uncaring.  If anything, it is because I care too much.  I cared enough about the general readership of the forum to not allow Maxx's sad story to be too influential by posting an alternative "feel good" story.  My bad for being happy and sharing it with the readership.

There is a time,place and a usefulness to administer tough love.  My timing or delivery will never be as good as jb, but I try. 
KenC

[Doll]

So, Ken's divorce is not final, yet he is planning his trip to the FSU already?
If I got it right.
As for Ken's offensive or not commenting here ( I got quite a few very doubtful and discriminating comments from him)- I let it go as it is not worth discussing.

[KenC]

I/O,
I sincerely disagree that this was a master plan in the back of Lena's mind.  It was a series of circumstances and events that led to the divorce.  My disappointment is that she cannot see or understand that these events and circumstances were temporary and have been corrected or can be altered in the future.  My disappointment in Lena is that she bailed when I was down.  I would never ever do that to a partner.  Her actions seem to be in direct contrast to the trait that most Russian's exhibit of never giving up.

I know exactly what you are speaking about with your reference to delayed shock.  I went through a life threatening hurricane on Grand Cayman around 89 or 90.  I was on vacation with my first wife and two of our closest friends.  In this dilemma, the three of them totally lost it and I had to be the rock to make the life saving decisions.  I had a strange detachment to on going events and calmly took the steps to best remedy the situation at hand.  I remained in this semi-robotic mode until we were all safely home.  Once home, I was explaining things to my young son and broke down sobbing.  All the repressed emotions came out.

I don't know if that will happen over our breakup however.  I feel that the emotional part is over now.  Of course there will be continued sad feelings that may never go away, but the sooner I put this all in my rear view mirror the better for me.  As some time has already passed and I know that this process may take years to complete properly, I feel safe dipping my toes into it again now.
KenC

[KenC]

So, Ken's divorce is not final, yet he is planning his trip to the FSU already?
If I got it right.
As for Ken's offensive or not commenting here ( I got quite a few very doubtful and discriminating comments from him)- I let it go as it is not worth discussing.

Doll,
No trips planned yet, just exploring the possibilities.  BTW, I am 56.
KenC

[Doll]

Doll,
No trips planned yet, just exploring the possibilities.  BTW, I am 56.
KenC

I see- I read the whole thread yesterday so don't remember. But you did mention it.
BTW my husband is your age (he was 49 when we met).
Anyway I am sorry to have heard about your divorce.
As for "preplanning" it by Lena- it could or could not be true. Half of your age minus 10 years makes her being around 20 when she married you. Some RW do think that this age gap is ok but later on almost all of them change their minds.For a 20 yo to say she didn't want kids was not smart.
What I am implying is when a woman marries a much older man she always  has this back-up plan on her mind. I am not accusing Lena but I am sure she was thinking of it too.

[KenC]

Doll,
I also knew that the claim of not wanting children could change over time but there was also medical factors involved that I will not discuss here.  Some of those medical factors have since changed leading to the change in the decision.  I also know now that I did not handle this issue well.  BTW, you almost got it right, Lena was 21 when we married.
KenC

[Doll]

Her actions seem to be in direct contrast to the trait that most Russian's exhibit of never giving up.

It is true- they do not. They don't give up if it is worth. Apparently, in this case it was
not.

[Doll]

At  21 people are almost never wise to think of future realistically, they think that love is everything. It is not.

[ECOCKS]

The kids issue certainly factors into the reason why so many of these large age gap marriages don't work. Energy and ego seem to supply the bulk of the rest.

[Doll]

Energy and ego seem to supply the bulk of the rest.

There are much more factors to be considered. 21 and 46 is sort of ok (not for most of people) but 31 and 56 or 41 and 66 is NOT. Not even close.
My husband was smart when he was searching for a woman CLOSE to his age WITH  young kids.We've been together for more than 7 years by now and I never think of leaving him.

[ECOCKS]

Energy is the term I am using to describe that feeling that they (the younger spouse) are still learning about life whereas someone in their late 40's and 50's hasn't got quite the same zest when approaching these bridges which they crossed a quarter of a century ago. You see some sorry old guys in the pubs and dives bragging about their Viagra and vitamin regimen as well as trying to dance on the club floors completely oblivious to the laughter behind their backs and condescension from the locals (including the GF's). Walking Kreshatyk and watching people's reaction to these couples is eye-opening and, frankly, sad.

I would say the odds against a 21-46 marriage are astronomically high. 41 and 66 might fit the right couple and 31-56 is still a pretty long shot. That said, it is obvious that several people approach this whole process with a what the heck, at least I can get some good times out of the experience. My reaction to this is what a waste of time.  Yes, the long-term is a series of short-terms, yet my ideal (and obviously not everyones) is to take that long ride into the sunset with a dedicated partner, not an escort for a stage of the journey.

Why someone thinks they can beat the odds will probably always boil down to ego/arrogance but the numbers and situations seem to bear out the truth.

[Doll]

at least I can get some good times out of the experience.

 
In my understanding to loose family at 56 is a drama.

[KenC]

Ecocks.
I knew that the relationship had some risks. ("odds against a 21-46 marriage are astronomically high") But what do you do when two people fall in love?  I accepted the risk and it eventually turned out as the odds caught up to us.  But i will never agree that it was"a waste of time" as you say.  Not for me or for Lena either.  Our lives have been enriched by our time together.  My life and my choice.
KenC

[ECOCKS]

Just responding to Doll's post KenC.

The numbers, and societal reactions o these couples speak for themselves. Is true love and a rich relationship possible for two individuals with that large an age gap? I think it's possible, but highly unlikely.

At the end of the day, you bought your ticket and took your chance with the outcome. You're man enough to stand up and face the crowd so many of us respect you for that.

Best of Luck!

[Turboguy]

The kids issue certainly factors into the reason why so many of these large age gap marriages don't work. Energy and ego seem to supply the bulk of the rest.

Humm, and you have some statistics to back that statement up?  One or two divorces in age gap marriages is not much evidence to make that statement.  I am sure there were a few who got divorced without much difference in ages.

It is good that Ken is moving on.  It's too bad that Maxx can't do the same after all these years.

I remember a long, long time ago on one of my first trips to the big apple seeing signs plastered all over midtown Manhattan that said "You are what you eat".  I believe that was the name of a Broadway play at the time.  Maxx is an example of "You are what you eat"  I respect the good Maxx has tried to do for those in a bad marriage to RW but I think he feeds his brain the wrong thing.  If you feed your brain a steady diet of what people did to you and why this group or that group is evil and how much hurt someone put you through you can't have a healthy mind or body.  You are eating the wrong brain food.

I think if you feed your brain more of what a beautiful day it is and the good a RW brought to you if it was for 10 years or 10 days and when someone does something to you let it go.  Even if you can't let it go that day or that week, let it go.  Think happy thoughts and forget the bad.  When you think about the bad things you are a beaten man (or woman).  

I have been through my share of heartbreak and betrail, maybe more than Maxx if there was a way to know.  I am sure when Maxx was at his low point and felt Ken attacked him that it could hurt.  I have to question if someone going through those things that Maxx did really should have been posting in those days at all and if they can really take an objective view of anything.  You just can't let that eat at you for all those years.  If someone does what you feel is a wrong to you it is best to move on and it is never good to strike back at anyone when they are down. I always respected that Maxx tried to help people but I have to feel a little sorry for him too because it has sapped the happiness from his life.  I still respect Maxx but I think the time has come for him to think about himself and find a way to have a happy life filled with beauty and love and not resentment and hurt.  Yes, perhaps Maxx would benefit from having someone to talk to on a professional level.  You only have one life Maxx, salvage what is left.  Maxx, you need to drop your current hobby and take up flower gardening or bird watching, something that will bring brightness and beauty into your life.

I am glad to hear Ken is starting to think about a trip.  RW are special and people need to move on.  I am glad too that he can appreciate the 10 good years and be happy he had them.  I have seen a lot of divorces that started out well and then turned the two into enemies.  It sounds like Ken and Lena have a good shot at avoiding that and I hope it continues that way.  Sometimes it doesn't get tough until it comes time to divide the property.  

Ken has said some things to me that perhaps could have caused some people to not like him much.  

[Turboguy]

Just responding to Doll's post KenC.

The numbers, and societal reactions o these couples speak for themselves. Is true love and a rich relationship possible for two individuals with that large an age gap? I think it's possible, but highly unlikely.

At the end of the day, you bought your ticket and took your chance with the outcome. You're man enough to stand up and face the crowd so many of us respect you for that.

Best of Luck!

So you are saying Ken and Lena didn't have true love and a rich relationship.  That doesn't jive with what Ken said so I guess you were either hiding in their closet or under their bed?

What societal reactions and numbers are you referring to?

[Doll]

Just out of curiosity- it is a man's thing to better have a few wonderful years of marriage followed by the divorce than the life time marriage with some bumps?
I would prefer the latter. I do understand there is no guarantee in anything though.

[Doll]

So you are saying Ken and Lena didn't have true love

Hmmmmmmmm.... then why is she leaving? Just because of this "kids" stuff? There is also the chance of adoption.

I have to quote myself because I read the OP over. There was something else.

[KenC]

Just out of curiosity- it is a man's thing to better have a few wonderful years of marriage followed by the divorce than the life time marriage with some bumps?
I would prefer the latter. I do understand there is no guarantee in anything though.

Doll,
I would prefer the later too, but you never know what it will be until you play it out.  It is what it is and I have accepted it.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Just out of curiosity- it is a man's thing to better have a few wonderful years of marriage followed by the divorce than the life time marriage with some bumps?
I would prefer the latter. I do understand there is no guarantee in anything though.

Personally I would agree.  I would far rather have a few years of wonderful marriage followed by the divorce than a lifetime with some bumps.

I would even prefer a few years of terrible marriage compared to a lifetime of terrible marriage with no divorce.   

[Doll]

Doll,
I would prefer the later too, but you never know what it will be until you play it out.  It is what it is and I have accepted it.
KenC

No, we don't know. So I am asking it in a different way: are men who understand the risk of a big age gap value some years of marriage (then divorce) more than marrying an older (closer to their age) woman with much less risk for the divorce?
A woman who does have kids and also with not many  chances to get a better husband would think twice before she leaves. Something like this," He is a little older than I am, so what are my chances to get a much better deal? Not too much"
 If she is much younger then all men between her and his age are good enough.
I am just thinking and I am thinking like a RW here , in the USA. We did have some issues with my husband but this very thought stopped me from doing something stupid. Every time we have fights (we do!))) both of us think of what happens tomorrow. "Tomorrow" doesn't seem so bright at our age))

[Doll]

Now personally- I do love my husband (very much) so will I leave him is he gets sick? No way. I understand this "never say never" but again- no way.