Realities of FSUW

[Sculpto]

I'm NOT happy with every anture-child, puffy, balding and iondulging in drink, drugs, etc. - spouting about eternal mysteries and other New Age BS. Did you notice that I do not argue with you? because it's useless< I've met tons of the likes of you. You know nothing, you care nothing of knowledge,

As tp my knowing everything... well. to know more than you and your crowd do isn't such a big achievement

Those are your words Wienerin.. is that really what you think?

[Wienerin]

Haha I am not in the least surprised aliens have come into the discussion.  I think everyone pretty much accepts that SOMETHING UNIDENTIFIED is "out there".  People seem to see things fairly regularly all accross the globe, so, the phenomena is not limited to any culture or location.

I do not know whether to laugh or weep... Sculpto, people are "seeing" what they are conditioned to see - by their wiring, culture, upbringing, education, etc. It's ScFi t6hat led to the mass appearance in pop-culture of little green men and flying saucers, not the other way round. Before the spread of Christianity, the Irish were apt to "see" leprechauns and fairies, the Norse people - trolls, etc., Slavic people - mermaids (beautiful girl-fish creatures sitting in trees for some reason and comping their beautiful long hair), water sprites and domestic little people, domovyye - rather like leprechauns.

After years of Christianity these were replaced by saintly visions or gevils of various forms and shapes.

The little green men only made their appearance on the visionary scene after the concept of extraterrestial travel became more or less universally accepted, but as I said, their appearance was more influenced by ScFi than any real scientific break-throughs.

And "something out there", BTW - has nothing to do with extraterrestials, who are supposed to me newcomers from another planets, i.e. humans, only different from us in shape and form. I, personally, believe (I use this word for lack of any other, but it's a very strong belief, - based on known facts), that there's nobody out there - at least at the distance which could be covered by any known means, - to come to Earth and "make contact". That a human race was once-in-a-time experiment proving highly unsatisfactory and left to its own devices

I would suggest that the lack of ability to explain these things is what led to the concepts of angels and perhaps even God.  

I would strongly suggest that lack of rational reasoning and poor grasp of facts - with the consequent inability to process visual and tactile information (like you can make a small child with little knowledge of the material world and overwhelmed with information to believe in anything) and arrive at the truth of the matter, led to transformation of observed but bewildering phenomena to devils, spirits, angels or whatever - gods and demons too.

It took a small group of humanity - the first one in 5-6 thousand of years of human development, coming from ancient Shumer, and it's one genius leader - one Abraham, to come out with the concept of the One - without a name, without material substance, without shape or realm or beginning or end. That there are not gods or other creatures, only The One.

This is what fills me with awe - how a limited human brain of a desert dweller 6-7 thousand years ago could come up, could grapple with such a concept. And I do not wonder at all, that this group remained the only one holding such beliefs, and that even this one small group couldn't in all of its members continue to hold to this severe and uncompromising belief, but gave rise again to the visibility and human appearance of a number of gods.

Also, did it occur to anyone that the so called "aliens" are not alien at all but are in fact a superior intelligence from right here on earth?

Yes, it did - there's a lot of ScFi about multiple parallel worlds, superbrains, etc. Think about a simple contradiction - an intelligence of that high an order as to penetrate the untold light years of space, wouldn't have any reason to appear to us at all - we have nothing to tell them, and they have nothing to tell us... so that we'd understand.

I have read quite a bit about the "snowman" mythology in Russia.  Apparently they are living right outside Moscow in the forest.  

Sheesh! An I was brought up in belief that the abominable snowman dwells in Tibet, far above any human population. St the very least - in some unexplored areas of Caucasus. Moscow, you say? ... Hmmm... this would explain some things  

[Mir]

Your comment about "vodoo mumbo jumbo" just shows a lack of respect for the beliefs of others.  You don't have to believe in it, but, why make fun of what someone else believes?  It is exactly that sort of mind set that leads to religious persecution all around the world.  Think about it.  I am not saying YOU are persecuting.. just that intolerance is not acceptable.

You are right o wise one, I am ashamed of my intolerance to other's beliefs.
From now on I will be very tolerant to the beliefs of all the witch doctors, shamans and what nots. And while we are at it we should also be tolerent to the beliefs of the Talaban who burn girls schools, to the religious leaders who preach female circumcision and to the suicide bombers who kill innocents because they believe it is for their own good.
Seriously if you have ever experienced a needless loss of life, of a little child due to his/her parents belief in the power of voodoo mambo jumbo you would be speaking a different tune. Then maybe not, afterall the world does look magical after a few weeds isn't it?

[Wienerin]

how do you know that for sure?  I am guessing you also believe the soul is dead.. but again, how do you know that for sure?

so, you are taking a leap of faith based purely on what you are able to observe and what you have been taught by religion.  Yet, how many hundreds of millions of Hindus and Bhuddists would say that your somment is heretical?

God is, or is not.. doesn't matter.  Faith in something, whether voodoo or gremlins or tree nymphs or the party on Olympus is all equally bunk or beauty.. live and let live.

What do Hindoos, Buddhists, or whoever have to do with me? I do not preach to them. When someone tries to preach to me, I'd very politely shut the door in that one's face. My relationship with G-d is my own - it doesn't concern anyone.

Also, Sculpto, at least you could recognize some of the basic tenets of Judaism - that life, its rewards and retributions is here and now, there's no existence after death, unless you'll be found worthy to live... in the Judgement Day - and even then you'll return in flesh to inhabit the Earth.

Enough is enough, already... now that you started to threaten me with being found a heretic (you're wron, BTW, the correct term would be infidel - one can only be a heretic when distorting one's own religion and/or preaching this distortion) by hordes of infuriated Buddhists and Hindoos - I'll be scared to continue Also, H & B () do not give a hoot about anyone not sharing their beliefs. This infidel is his own punishment, - he'll never get an afterlife or whatsis - the opportunity to better oneself and after a series of lives become a maharadja or somebody even better... So do not try to scare me but better commiserate over my bleak future

[Wienerin]

Because, to believe in the tooth fairy without reservation and without any substantiation you have throw out the fundemental principles of scientific method.

Why do you go out of your way to be insulting? Do you (or did you) without any reservation believe in your parents having given you life? You do not remeber it, there's very little (or sometimes none at all) proof that this is so, no eyewitnesses, no way to repeat the experiment, etc. Or, better still, do you have any way to conclusively prove that your grandma loved your Mother, and your Mother loved you? What have scientific methods and proofs have to do with it? Do you believe in your Mother's love "without reservation" or do you have some? ...

I've tried to explain, that what or who I believe in - is no "tooth fairy", does not need "reservations" (are there reservations when you plug in electric kettle - providing there's electricity? ) and even proving by "scientific methods" (and you ignored my information of who were the opriginators of scientific methods you love so much). BTW - which scientific methods apply to study and application of art, literature, psychology, philosophy? Evevn to the comparative study of religions? Even to history.

You can reconcile as much as you want, most people that claim to be in a similar situation do just that, ignoring that they are essentially hypocrites. I have more respect for those that openly say, "I choose to ignore reason and I have blind faith that god exists."

Now you go again! Where is the hypocrisy? I do not subscribe to any religion, I do not worship inanimate objects or pray to unknown entities to interfere with some crisis in my life. I have nothing against application of scientific methods - as far as they would go. And that is mostly with sciences and maths, they do not do very well with the humanities, do they? Principles of logic are applicable of course, but normally we'll believe in what doesn't go against our reason. Tooth fairy does it for me And if you still insist that either it's science or belief in G-d - well, what can I do? And do I want to do anything about it? Heck, no
 

I do know that many scientists struggle with the contradictions of their blind faith and their objective, scientific leanings.

It's as if I am in a Scientific Atheism class in Soviet Russia... and in a village hall too. If there is Faith - it's necessarily blind. If there're scientific "leanings" (some of us do not "lean', sorry, they work - being scientists. Forming hypotheses and theories, doing experiments and tests, proving - or not the theories, etc... well... you must know ) - those (whatever the hell they are) are of course objective. Do I have to tell you a long story of how many these "leanings" proved to be not in the least objective and totally wrong to boot? Na, I'd rather won't - you're more interesting in your pristine state.

I guess that a lot of people just choose not to look too closely at their views. Most, I think, just cannot function without the idea that there is a god somewhere, the reality that there isn't is just too overwhelming for any number of reasons.

How can this be reality or otherwise? And I don't find it overwhelming... well, not more than the idea of endless, eternall, unknowable etc. Universe. THAT is what is dreadful! Once you've grappled with this, then having G-d animating so to say this Universe, giving it rules and laws, - is OK.

If you take an unprejudiced view then first of all you'll have to concede that there's nothing shameful in people holding different beliefs from you, i.e. that they're not morons unable to grasp scientific Truth or poor spiritual invalids concerned for some reason with workings of their souls and their inner life and health, with moral dilemmas that you cannot solve by application of the best scientific methods. Then, secondly, you'll - maybe - understand that it's not nice to attack people's views if there's nothing harmful in those.

I don't consider you a bad or evil person, so I do not think you'll mock or abuse a child who believes in Santa Claus or Father Frost and SnowMaiden... and wouldn't be zealous in application of scientific method to disprove their existense, not would you? It's the same with the humanity and the beliefs of which you do not approve.

Let people be if they do not harm anyone - either the humanity will grow out of this - as a child usually (looks at Sculpto with doubt) grows out of Santa Claus, your beloved Tooth Fairy, etc. - or the scientific methods will eviolve to embrace even spiritual phenomena... psychologists are working on this but without much success so far...

Whatever, no one is going to be changing their opinion today.

There's some confusion here... A core belief isn't an opinion.

[ECOCKS]

Maybve we should have left the aliens here for some stress relief?   

[Sculpto]

You are right o wise one, I am ashamed of my intolerance to other's beliefs.
From now on I will be very tolerant to the beliefs of all the witch doctors, shamans and what nots. And while we are at it we should also be tolerent to the beliefs of the Talaban who burn girls schools, to the religious leaders who preach female circumcision and to the suicide bombers who kill innocents because they believe it is for their own good.
Seriously if you have ever experienced a needless loss of life, of a little child due to his/her parents belief in the power of voodoo mambo jumbo you would be speaking a different tune. Then maybe not, afterall the world does look magical after a few weeds isn't it?

come on now Mir.. there is no obligation to turna blind eye to the intolerance that a group like the Taliban persecutes against its own people.  There is a difference between tolerance and injustice.  There is a difference between having private beliefs and forcing others to conform to a rigid idealogy that by its very design implements repression and control in unreasonable levels.  Tyranny is one thing and being opposed to it or even destroying it are not bad things.  It is another story altogether when someone makes fun of, or persecutes against a person or group because their belief system doesn't correspond with "yours". 

Here is a perfect example.  How many people here have had experience with Jehovahs Witnesses?  Knocked on your door lately?  This sort of evangelizing is usually annoying but basically harmless.

Now, google Jehovahs Witness Russia.  Its not pretty.

This country was founded on the idea of religious freedom and the seperation of church and state.  The other day someone in the forum tried to say this is a Christian country.  But, that is not true.  The fact of the matter is we are a country without a national religion as specified in the constitution.  Christianity may be the dominant religion and some of the basic principles of justice and fairness that are supposed to goven our land may have been derived from some of the more positive aspects of Chrisitianity, but, as a whole and in an ideal implementation of the constitution ALL religions are welcomed equally and all religions deserve the same forthright respect as one demands for their own, even if the practices of said religion seem strange or bizarre to "you".

I think there are very few places in the rest of the world that can boast such a high principle.  It would do all of us some good to try and live up to it as the founders of the country designed the constitution to give us the chance to really lead the world in this concept.

BTW.. for the Rastafarians the ganja is a holy sacrament.  For the Native American church peyote buttons are a holy sacrament.  In the Brazillian rainforest ayhuasca is a holy sacrament.  In the Pacific Islands kava kava is a holy sacrament.  It would seem that in many smaller isolated cultures where there is access to some sort of mind altering material this same material becomes deeply embedded in the belief system and is considerd holy and sacred.  One might consider that such psychadelipharmaspiritualism (new word) is normal and might actually have some kind of usefull wisdom attached to it. 

[Sculpto]

facts facts facts.. science proves something is a fact until science reverses itself and proves that the exact opposite of what was accepted as fact is in fact a fact.  Factually speaking it is an often universally accepted fact that the earth is in fact round, however, the fact is the earth is not exactly round and that is a fact.  It was a widely accepted fact that the earth was in fact flat and equally accepted as fact was the fact the the sun, planets and universe revolved around the earth.  That was a fact also until someone with better facts proved that it was in fact wrong.  So, in fact, facts are facts so long as someone doesn't come along and prove some other fact is in fact more factual than the other... fact.

So, who is smarter, humans or dolphins?

[ECOCKS]

Earthworms.

Everyone knows, it's  fact.

No doubt about it.

[SANDRO43]

Reminds me of the question from the last 10 years or so. Now that so many people have cameras, video cams and cell phones, how come we haven't actually caught any aliens? It seems that we used to hear about them appearing every month or so but now, nothing.....

Maybe they are already under contract with some major film studio .

[OlgaH]

Maybe they are already under contract with some major film studio .

for the most part in US 

[SANDRO43]

for the most part in US 

Area 51 Productions, Inc. ?

[Sculpto]

nono.. they are Tuareg!

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Thomas-Abercrombie/Turbaned-Tuareg-Man-near-Hirafok-Algeria-Photographic-Print-C13106027.jpeg

[SANDRO43]

facts facts facts.. science proves something is a fact until science reverses itself and proves that the exact opposite of what was accepted as fact is in fact a fact.  Factually speaking it is an often universally accepted fact that the earth is in fact round, however, the fact is the earth is not exactly round and that is a fact.  It was a widely accepted fact that the earth was in fact flat and equally accepted as fact was the fact the the sun, planets and universe revolved around the earth.  That was a fact also until someone with better facts proved that it was in fact wrong.  So, in fact, facts are facts so long as someone doesn't come along and prove some other fact is in fact more factual than the other... fact.

The basic problem is that while facts are the WHAT, science also has to come up with a WHY .

Many years ago I was an avid reader of the SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN which, as you may know, is a scientific monthly covering all sorts of disciplines, from nuclear physics to psychology. After a number of years, I started discerning a pattern: in any given discipline, a new contributor would come up either with new facts or a new interpretation of known facts, until the process repeated itself again later on.

This WHAT puzzled me until I devised my own WHY by analogy: you can never really see the whole of a statue, as you walk around it you get new and changing views of it, all equally correct but always partial perspectives. A good scientist should consider all previous views along his own, but cannot be ever sure to have completed the whole circuit.

Where's my Nobel prize ?

[Blues Fairy]

you can never really see the whole of a statue, as you walk around it you get new and changing views of it, all equally correct but always partial perspectives. A good scientist should consider all previous views along his own, but cannot be ever sure to have completed the whole circuit

Nice analogy Sandro, but then a really good scientist knows he doesn't have to walk around a statue to know what exactly he'll find on its rear side.  

[Sculpto]

Sandro, very very few thinkers are capable of doing that which is why true genious is so rare and prized.  One that has been explored repeatedly for the last 100 years or so is Picasso.

http://www.times.com/books/01/05/06/reviews/010506.06everdet.html

[SANDRO43]

Nice analogy Sandro, but then a really good scientist knows he doesn't have to walk around a statue to know what exactly he'll find on its rear side.

Are you sure? They discovered that Michelangelo had belatedly decided to turn Moses's head some 50° to the left only after examining it from the rear .

[Sculpto]

Sorry Blues but Sandro is right.  A good scientist not only will go around to the back but will also turn things inside out and upside down.. good engineers do the same thing.  Only a hack would assume to know what is on the backside. 

Music is a linear art that exists in a space of time.  Painting is/was the art of illusion and story telling, but sculpture.. sculpture is 3 dimensional, sometimes 4 or even more.  Sculpture can be merely a physical object one observes in static form as the example Sandro posted, but, it can also exist in time the way music does and it can also exist in non visual ways such as the emanation of sound, smell or any other variation that stimulates a particular sense. 

I now expect Blues to tell me I am wrong and from some sort of lunatic fringe of sculpting. 

[SANDRO43]

Music is a linear art that exists in a space of time.

Wrong again Watson, music is both diachronic (melody) AND synchronic (harmony) .

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9025.0

And don't forget sculpture's big brother, architecture.

[OlgaH]

Painting is/was the art of illusion and story telling...

Painting is an artist's world outlook and philosophy, his soul 

[Sculpto]

Wrong again Watson, music is both diachronic (melody) AND synchronic (harmony) .

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9025.0

And don't forget sculpture's big brother, architecture.

harmony and melody are still prisoners of time Sandro.. without the passage of time you would only hear one very nuddy note, might sound like an explosion. 

[Sculpto]

Painting is an artist's world outlook and philosophy, his soul 

that is a precept of modern art.  Prior to the modern era most western painting was subject to propoganda functions of the church and decorative fashion of the aristocracy.  There are hints of what was to come during the renacamiento but it really wasn't until Goya's black paintings that the pure feelings of the artist were the main subject of his work, though, it could be argued that Rembrandt preceeded this with his later work which landed him in the poor house. 

It really isn't until painting and sculpture are disconnected from the control mechanisms of architecture and politics that artists have really been recognized for their independent genious. 

[OlgaH]

There are hints of what was to come during the renacamiento but it really wasn't until Goya's black paintings that the pure feelings of the artist were the main subject of his work, though, it could be argued that Rembrandt preceeded this with his later work which landed him in the poor house. 
 

What about Hieronymous Bosch (1450-1516) before  Rembrandt, Goya and long before surrealism   

[Sculpto]

Good point.. Bosch is certainly an exception. 

Ok, so one thing I am a bit curious about is why painting in Russia never developed very far beyond icon painting until the modernists who were all wiped out by Stalin or simply left Russia.

Kandinsky is and will always be one of my favorites and I am pretty partial to Chagal also.

But, there is no real excitement that I am aware of from the 14th century until the late 19th century.  If I am wrong please accept my apologies but I don't know a heck of a lot about early Russian art.

[Ade]

Why do you go out of your way to be insulting?

No insult was intended and to me, the tooth fairy has as much basis in reality as any god. But FWIW, if you are concerned about insults you really should take a good look at your posting style as I've rarely seen so many condescending posts emanating from one person.

Do you (or did you) without any reservation believe in your parents having given you life? You do not remeber it, there's very little (or sometimes none at all) proof that this is so, no eyewitnesses, no way to repeat the experiment, etc. Or, better still, do you have any way to conclusively prove that your grandma loved your Mother, and your Mother loved you? What have scientific methods and proofs have to do with it? Do you believe in your Mother's love "without reservation" or do you have some?

You're actually equating your faith with the above? I'm sorry, but that's just too funny. Okay, well, I see now that this will just escalate like these threads usually do and to be honest, after many, many discussions on this subject over the years I don't really care what you people fantasize about any more.

But maybe you'll want to review this post of yours and see if you can spot the contradictions and hypocrisy in your thinking. Go on, you know you want to;  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9332.msg178524#msg178524