Rejected for student visa...now what?

[brucen36]

Hi:

So I have a situation that might benefit from comments/suggestions.  I posted a while ago about meeting a girl in Belarus and trying to bring her to Canada by a means other than marriage, simply because neither of us is ready for marriage yet, but we want to explore the potential of something long-term.  Here's a link to the original post if you're interested:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9027.msg168820#msg168820

Long story short, we decided a student visa would be the best way.  So we got her accepted into a language school where she can learn french, and then applied for a study permit.  Currently she has no official job in Belarus and is mostly giving english lessons to make money.  In her past she used to do language translation for a company in Israel (where she once lived) and this company offered to write a letter for her saying that they would flip the bill for her expenses and gave a bank statement attesting to this (It was only on paper, I would of course be supporting her in reality).  Unfortunately she was rejected for the visa.  The reasons given were as follows:

1) you have not satisfied me that you have sufficient funds to pay for your tuition, living, etc
2) you have not satisfied me that you would leave Canada  at the end of the temporary period if you were authorized to enter

followed by:
this application is now closed and not subject to reconsideration. Should you wish to reapply, it is suggested that you do so only if your situation has changed substantially or you have significant new information to submit.

I was kinda expecting #2 since she doesn't really have any strong ties in Belarus, like an official job, house deed, etc. But #1 came as a surprise  since I thought the company letter backing her would suffice.

Anyways, I was thinking of applying again for the student visa by having her temporarily transfer ownership of the house (which is in her mother's name currently) to her name and also to get a personal bank account for her and put enough money in there that would satisfy the immigration officials.  And also perhaps consult a company that specializes in such visas to see if they have any suggestions for improving the application.  Short of that, I really doubt the student visa route will work, unless someone  here has any other ideas.

The other option I'm looking into is getting her here on a work permit, but it's really hard to find a job for someone that is not here and does not have the technical skills that Canada is currently interested in.  And of course there's the au pair program but that too is very difficult to find for someone from Belarus.

It looks like the only other option is to get married and then wait the allotted time to sponsor her.  This would be a kind of "fake"/trial marriage in quotes, because we are not doing this just to get her status in Canada, but also not going to announce to everyone that we're married.  Neither of us wants to rush into this.  It would be a marriage to try out how things are, kinda like the K-1 visa in america.  Then if things are great (which I really think they will be), we can make it official.  If things for some reason did not work out then we could go our separate ways  and I would help her with whatever she wanted to do.  By the way I've already met her in her hometown and her family and friends and know her very well and we trust each other completely, so please no inquiries about that -  I know this person.  So I guess the question is: I assume we would get married there in Belarus?  And then I'd come back here and sponsor and then simply wait.  Right?  Is there an information resource on the details about how to go about doing all of this?

 Comments/suggestions/beatings/"cluebats"?))

[Faux Pas]

brucen

I'm not canadian, thus I know little of your countries laws. It would appear that you were attempting to perpetuate a fraud and your immigration officials sniffed it out. The reasons for rejection don't exactly lend itself to them giving much reconsideration of you re-apply in that manner again. Is there a limit for Canada on how many times one can apply? Suppose they reject her a second time on a fraudulent student visa, is a fiance visa going to be an option at that point? If you find that you do love her and want to marry her but she has two rejections on her file, could it cause problems  with a fiancee visa?

One other question, if you are not sure you love her or want to marry her, why bring her over at all? What is your hurry?

[Misha]

It looks like the only other option is to get married and then wait the allotted time to sponsor her.  This would be a kind of "fake"/trial marriage in quotes, because we are not doing this just to get her status in Canada, but also not going to announce to everyone that we're married. 

Bruce, have you looked into what sponsoring a spouse entails? You have to demonstrate that you have a legitimate relationship. You have to demonstrate that friends and family know that you are married (i.e. you are encouraged to provide photos from your wedding and list the people who attended).

It would be a marriage to try out how things are, kinda like the K-1 visa in america.  Then if things are great (which I really think they will be), we can make it official. 

Sorry, Bruce, things do not "kinda" work "like the K-1" in America. In Canada, you will have to sponsor her, which means that you will be legally responsible for her for three years after she arrives in Canada. You can't change your mind. If you are successful and she is granted permanent residence, then she arrive with all the rights and privileges of any other permanent resident. There is no 90 days to change your mind like the American K1 or 2 years that she must be married to you. She will be in Canada, she will have every right to be here, and she can apply for citizenship a few years later without you.

When she does apply for permanent residence, however, they will be looking for proof that you have a legitimate marriage and not a marriage of convenience. If and when she does arrive, she will "land" and you will be legally responsible for her financial well-being for three years. Her rejected student visa may raise some red flags with immigration officers studying her file.

Also, keep in mind, that if you sponsor a spouse, you will not be eligible to sponsor another spouse until the sponsorship runs out.

If things for some reason did not work out then we could go our separate ways  and I would help her with whatever she wanted to do.

You will be legally responsible for "helping" her for at least 3 years.

So I guess the question is: I assume we would get married there in Belarus?  And then I'd come back here and sponsor and then simply wait.  Right?  Is there an information resource on the details about how to go about doing all of this?

Start by going to Citizenship and Immigration Canada and downloading all the forms and guidelines: http://cic.gc.ca.

[brucen36]

brucen

I'm not canadian, thus I know little of your countries laws. It would appear that you were attempting to perpetuate a fraud and your immigration officials sniffed it out. The reasons for rejection don't exactly lend itself to them giving much reconsideration of you re-apply in that manner again. Is there a limit for Canada on how many times one can apply? Suppose they reject her a second time on a fraudulent student visa, is a fiance visa going to be an option at that point? If you find that you do love her and want to marry her but she has two rejections on her file, could it cause problems  with a fiancee visa?

One other question, if you are not sure you love her or want to marry her, why bring her over at all? What is your hurry?

Hi, but the student visa was not a fraud.  It was legitimate.  She was really going to take courses here for 6 months and then leave.  I mean the only inaccurate thing about it was that the company she used to work for would not actually be paying, but all they really care about is that she has the appropriate funds to survive in Canada, and she would.  About your other points, applying twice and getting rejected again, yes that is worrisome and for this reason it may not be the prudent thing to do.  As for why bring her over at all, well I can't travel there that often because of my job, maybe once a year.  And even if I could travel there a lot, it still would never replace living with someone before marriage - I sincerely believe in this.  But I guess you can't have it all.

[Sculpto]

start an import export business and find a client in Belarus.  Then you have a legitimate reason to bring your "employee" to Canada for training.

[brucen36]

Bruce, have you looked into what sponsoring a spouse entails? You have to demonstrate that you have a legitimate relationship. You have to demonstrate that friends and family know that you are married (i.e. you are encouraged to provide photos from your wedding and list the people who attended).

Sorry, Bruce, things do not "kinda" work "like the K-1" in America. In Canada, you will have to sponsor her, which means that you will be legally responsible for her for three years after she arrives in Canada. You can't change your mind. If you are successful and she is granted permanent residence, then she arrive with all the rights and privileges of any other permanent resident. There is no 90 days to change your mind like the American K1 or 2 years that she must be married to you. She will be in Canada, she will have every right to be here, and she can apply for citizenship a few years later without you.

When she does apply for permanent residence, however, they will be looking for proof that you have a legitimate marriage and not a marriage of convenience. If and when she does arrive, she will "land" and you will be legally responsible for her financial well-being for three years. Her rejected student visa may raise some red flags with immigration officers studying her file.

Also, keep in mind, that if you sponsor a spouse, you will not be eligible to sponsor another spouse until the sponsorship runs out.

You will be legally responsible for "helping" her for at least 3 years.

Start by going to Citizenship and Immigration Canada and downloading all the forms and guidelines: http://cic.gc.ca.

Thanks for the info.  Well this is why I asked, I was not sure what it entailed.  For the family thing, I would go over there and tell her family all about it.  We could take plenty of pictures.  As for financially providing for her 3 years after whether it worked out or not, well I don't really mind that and I am prepared to do that.  I highly doubt it won't work out, but in the event it doesn't, as I said, I am prepared.   I have pictures with her since January, which is when we met.  I am planning to go to Japan this summer for work and I'm hoping to bring her there too and we can take plenty of pictures there.  And to be honest, this is not a marriage of convenience.  It is real.  But it's more of a "trial" marriage.  And yes again, if it does not work out, I will help support her for 3 years.  The rejected student visa I agree could be a problem.  Unfortunately, I didn't foresee the rejection.  Ok time for me to start reading up on the procedures.  Thanks.

[brucen36]

What about the option of find a company here that will sponsor her for a job?  I realize it's very difficult, but is it a viable option?

[Misha]

What about the option of find a company here that will sponsor her for a job?  I realize it's very difficult, but is it a viable option?

Not likely. Not only will there be reams of paperwork, they will have to show that there is nobody in Canada capable or willing of doing the work. In other words, they will have to put an add in the Jobs Bank and show that nobody replied to their posting. Given that we are now in a recession and unemployment is going up, this will be that much more difficult to do.

[UTRO]

I really don't think you have many more choices for getting her to Canada Brucen... She could reapply for the Student Visa, it's her (your) right. But to make it work you are going to have to do what you said about her Mother's flat and also transfer mucho dineros to her Bank Account. I suspect somewhere around $4000 USD? Are you willing to do this? Then again, CIC might wonder where these assets all of a sudden came from and why they weren't declared the first time. There are 'services' in the FSU that 'arrange' ($$) Student Visas to Canada. You probably should have gone that way. I hate to say it, but I think you blew it.
Also, if she is older than say 28, are they going to believe that she would give all up to come to Canada to study French....?
Perhaps it's time for you to make a decision and decide whether she is 'The One'. If she is, you only have one choice in getting her here, the Legitimate way. Of course, if you Marry her and the Separate, not only will you be held Responsible by CIC for 'helping' her for three years.... but like any Canadian recognized Marriage, you will be responsible for Alimony if she can't support herself. You will also be splitting your assets including your Home, RRSPs and Company Pension. Not to mention Child Support and Daycare if you have children together.
I would be very sure that you want this Woman as your Wife before Marrying her. In fact think about it..... would you marry a Canadian Woman in such a manner? Marriage shouldn't be so frivolous. Believe me, I know where you're coming from and it's understandable Our government is forcing your hand to do something you might not be comfortable with.... hence your attempt at trying to get her into Canada on a Student Visa. Decision time, decision time.....

[brucen36]

I really don't think you have many more choices for getting her to Canada Brucen... She could reapply for the Student Visa, it's her (your) right. But to make it work you are going to have to do what you said about her Mother's flat and also transfer mucho dineros to her Bank Account. I suspect somewhere around $4000 USD? Are you willing to do this? Then again, CIC might wonder where these assets all of a sudden came from and why they weren't declared the first time. There are 'services' in the FSU that 'arrange' ($$) Student Visas to Canada. You probably should have gone that way. I hate to say it, but I think you blew it.
Also, if she is older than say 28, are they going to believe that she would give all up to come to Canada to study French....?
Perhaps it's time for you to make a decision and decide whether she is 'The One'. If she is, you only have one choice in getting her here, the Legitimate way. Of course, if you Marry her and the Separate, not only will you be held Responsible by CIC for 'helping' her for three years.... but like any Canadian recognized Marriage, you will be responsible for Alimony if she can't support herself. You will also be splitting your assets including your Home, RRSPs and Company Pension. Not to mention Child Support and Daycare if you have children together.
I would be very sure that you want this Woman as your Wife before Marrying her. In fact think about it..... would you marry a Canadian Woman in such a manner? Marriage shouldn't be so frivolous. Believe me, I know where you're coming from and it's understandable Our government is forcing your hand to do something you might not be comfortable with.... hence your attempt at trying to get her into Canada on a Student Visa. Decision time, decision time.....

Yes I agree with everything you've said.  To answer your questions.  Yes I am willing to put the money in her bank, but I do see the problems of doing that now.  What 'services' are you referring to help with the student visa, anything on the internet about that? 

Alas, I think I blew it too with regards to the student visa.  And of course I wouldn't marry a Canadian woman this way, I don't want to marry any woman this way, but it just seems there's very little choice.  I do think she's the 'one'.  I just don't know it yet.  For me to truly know this I have to live with her and see how things will be in everyday life.  I don't mind supporting her for 3 years even if things don't pan out.  Frankly, based on her character she is not the type of woman who would even want that support from anyone, but that's neither here nor there, I realize it's a big responsibility, and I'm prepared for that.  One question though, what if on the off chance things didn't work out and she decided to leave and go back to her country, would there still be financial responsibility on my part then?  I don't really care if there is, just wondering.  It's really not about the money at all, it's about doing this marriage thing right and finding someone who is right for me.

[Misha]

I realize it's a big responsibility, and I'm prepared for that. 

I want to make sure that you really understand what you will have to pay if she arrives in Canada and leaves you shortly afterward. She will go to the nearest provincial office and apply for social assistance. A single person who qualifies in Canada will range roughly between $13,000 and $17,000 based on what I could find googling. Multiply this by three and you could potentially be responsible over the full three years for a nice sum ranging between $39,000 and $51,000. Are you prepared to pay this or possibly even more money?

Also, IMHO, you should plan for the worst case scenario. You should expect her to stay and you should expect to pay the full amount for the full three years. If you could live with that, then you will be prepared for the worst case scenario. Also, keep in mind that what people say before marriage, may change after they arrive in Canada. Don't expect any sympathy from any government official as they will show you the contract that you signed when sponsoring your spouse. Here is a thread on a forum specializing in Canadian immigration matters that you should read: http://www.immigration.ca/discussion2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44179

[Sculpto]

What about the option of find a company here that will sponsor her for a job?  I realize it's very difficult, but is it a viable option?

What skill does she have that can not be done by a Canadian?

Can you find a company doing business in Belarus?

I have heard about an architectural firm in Seattle that has been getting Russian girls over because they have some business in Russia.

It might also be possible, well, if it was the USA, I dont know if it would work in Canada, to find someone with a qualifying business for the work travel program.  Get them to sign up and give your girl the inside track on the job.  I have heard of that working also from a girl in Maryland I used to chat with on yahoo who is now married to the guy that set it up with a hotel in his city.

All the above options are difficult, will take time, and still have no guarantees of success.

[brucen36]

I want to make sure that you really understand what you will have to pay if she arrives in Canada and leaves you shortly afterward. She will go to the nearest provincial office and apply for social assistance. A single person who qualifies in Canada will range roughly between $13,000 and $17,000 based on what I could find googling. Multiply this by three and you could potentially be responsible over the full three years for a nice sum ranging between $39,000 and $51,000. Are you prepared to pay this or possibly even more money?

Also, IMHO, you should plan for the worst case scenario. You should expect her to stay and you should expect to pay the full amount for the full three years. If you could live with that, then you will be prepared for the worst case scenario. Also, keep in mind that what people say before marriage, may change after they arrive in Canada. Don't expect any sympathy from any government official as they will show you the contract that you signed when sponsoring your spouse. Here is a thread on a forum specializing in Canadian immigration matters that you should read: http://www.immigration.ca/discussion2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44179

Hi Misha, thanks for the reality checks on the consequences.  Obviously I'd prefer not to take this route if possible, but left with no other possibilities, I think $51 000 is a lot! of money...but worth it, given the potential of things working out and I am prepared to put up that sum.  And I am completely aware, that people can change after marriage, but what can I say, I know her and trust her completely.  I'm not rich, but this is a chance I'm willing to take based on what I know about who she is.  I agree, however, with going into it with a mindset of the worst case scenario possibly resulting.  I think it would never come to that, but best to plan for it, because you never know.  Thanks for the link, I'll definitely read it.  Any ballpark estimate as to roughly how much time it would between the marriage and her arrival in Canada?

[brucen36]

What skill does she have that can not be done by a Canadian?

Can you find a company doing business in Belarus?

I have heard about an architectural firm in Seattle that has been getting Russian girls over because they have some business in Russia.

It might also be possible, well, if it was the USA, I dont know if it would work in Canada, to find someone with a qualifying business for the work travel program.  Get them to sign up and give your girl the inside track on the job.  I have heard of that working also from a girl in Maryland I used to chat with on yahoo who is now married to the guy that set it up with a hotel in his city.

All the above options are difficult, will take time, and still have no guarantees of success.

Unfortunately her only skill is language translation.  She speaks several languages fluently and has basic command of a couple others.  I've been trying to find a company in Canada doing business with Belarus, unfortunately the only thing I could find is the embassy of Belarus and there's nothing there.  They certainly make life difficult in Canada for this kind of thing.

[Faux Pas]

Hi, but the student visa was not a fraud.  It was legitimate.  She was really going to take courses here for 6 months and then leave.  I mean the only inaccurate thing about it was that the company she used to work for would not actually be paying, but all they really care about is that she has the appropriate funds to survive in Canada, and she would.  About your other points, applying twice and getting rejected again, yes that is worrisome and for this reason it may not be the prudent thing to do.  As for why bring her over at all, well I can't travel there that often because of my job, maybe once a year.  And even if I could travel there a lot, it still would never replace living with someone before marriage - I sincerely believe in this.  But I guess you can't have it all.

I realize it's probably done with frequency but it still doesn't whitewash the fraud aspect of it. There is likely many who get away with it as well. From what I am reading from some of your fellow Canadians here is they are concerned with the financial end and her application didn't pass muster. They may have checked with the company on the bogus letterhead. There is probably a lesson here for your next try and maybe it is to not try to pull the wool over their eyes. Certainly your application isn't the first they have seen.

[brucen36]

I realize it's probably done with frequency but it still doesn't whitewash the fraud aspect of it. There is likely many who get away with it as well. From what I am reading from some of your fellow Canadians here is they are concerned with the financial end and her application didn't pass muster. They may have checked with the company on the bogus letterhead. There is probably a lesson here for your next try and maybe it is to not try to pull the wool over their eyes. Certainly your application isn't the first they have seen.

But the company isn't bogus nor was the letterhead.  They agreed to uphold the story if immigration ever called them.  She checked with the company, they never called.  I do think we didn't do a proper application, but seriously the company funding her was legitimate.  I was going to send the money to the company and they were then doing to dispense it to her.  There is no way they could have smelled fraud there.  Now as to the actual reason they did not think she could financially support herself, I don't know.  I probably should have consulted a specialist about this to get it right and to cover all red flags.  I don't think they think she was trying to commit fraud, I think they legitimately thought she didn't pass the requirements, but either way, it doesn't matter, she didn't get it. 

[Sculpto]

embassy of Belarus

A lot of embassies have some sort of business development attache.. did you seek out such a person to ask which Belarus companies are doing biz in Canada or vice versa?

I am not suggesting doing anything illegal, but, perhaps a little lubrication with a new contact at that embassy could go a long way.  

I have a client who is the general consul of an un-named nation with a large coastline in the indian ocean.  This individual was very frank about what he could do for people who knew how to lubricate the system and were in a position to do so.  Just an example...

[Chicagoguy]

Maybe you should take all this effort and apply it to finding some way to spend more time over there. Even long weekends with some of the airfares now.

[brucen36]

A lot of embassies have some sort of business development attache.. did you seek out such a person to ask which Belarus companies are doing biz in Canada or vice versa?

I am not suggesting doing anything illegal, but, perhaps a little lubrication with a new contact at that embassy could go a long way.  

I have a client who is the general consul of an un-named nation with a large coastline in the indian ocean.  This individual was very frank about what he could do for people who knew how to lubricate the system and were in a position to do so.  Just an example...

Ask who?  Where to seek such a person who knows?  The people at the Belarus embassy hardly even speak english and they never answer the phone.  It was a pain in the ass when I was trying to get my visa to go to Belarus.  I would call and call and finally when someone did pick they were extremely angry, gruff and barely spoken english.  Really pathetic. 

Moreover, unfortunately lubrication is just not one of my skills.

[brucen36]

Maybe you should take all this effort and apply it to finding some way to spend more time over there. Even long weekends with some of the airfares now.

Yes I will do that now.  Unfortunately airfare to Belarus from Canada has consistently been about $1700 CAD for the past few and upcoming months.

[UTRO]

What 'services' are you referring to help with the student visa, anything on the internet about that? 

There must be Brucen... All I know is that my 'former' Russian Girlfriend told me all about this 'service' available in her city of Vladivostok. She looked into it and the cost was high. I think it was her Travel Agent, who had arranged for her Visa to Greece with me, that was offering her the Student Visa help? Perhaps your Girlfriend could do some investigating in her city?
I found this tidbit on the net about funds required.....

Proof of Funds

Every applicant must demonstrate that they have sufficient financial resources available to them to pay tuition fees, maintain him/herself and dependants who go to Canada, and to pay return transportation costs without engaging in employment in Canada. For example, students without accompanying dependants must demonstrate that they have at least $10,000 Cdn plus the cost of tuition for a twelve-month period, plus the cost of transportation to and fro from Canada. Canadian $10,000 is the base amount considered adequate to cover all costs, other than tuition, for one person for a twelve-month period. Some educational institutions require that more funds be available; if the local cost of living is higher than average, more money may also be required.

One question though, what if on the off chance things didn't work out and she decided to leave and go back to her country, would there still be financial responsibility on my part then?  

No you won't. But, if she leaves and comes back within the three years you will. CIC states that Permanent Residents can leave Canada, but they must live in Canada for at least two years within a five-year period of having their PR status to keep their status.

[Misha]

What skill does she have that can not be done by a Canadian?
Can you find a company doing business in Belarus?

Even if you find a company doing business in Belarus, they will have to show that there are not eligible permanent residents or citizens living in Canada who can do the job, and trust me there are plenty of Russian-speakers in Canada looking for work and there are likely a few from Belarus as well.

The only real option now, IMHO, is for Bruce to decide whether he truly wants to marry her and then sponsor her. If he is lucky, her application will be approved and not rejected because CIC has doubts as to whether it is a legitimate relationship.

[UTRO]

The only real option now, IMHO, is for Bruce to decide whether he truly wants to marry her and then sponsor her.

I agree 

[ECOCKS]

Aside from the advice you are receiving in your PM box, you really need to decide your priorities.

If you "think" she is "the one" what will it mean to you if you let this chance go?

You can consider things like going and marrying quickly, moving to Bel. for a 6 month period yourself, long weekends (cred to whoever suggested that) or other means of trying to build this relationship. In this economic climate, maybe your company would consent to a leave of absence for 6 months and give you their best assurance of full reinstatement. Maybe YOU could find a job in Bel. or somewhere closeby - PO, UA or elsewhere in E. Europe.

Maybe a bad analogy but stay with me through it please.

A mattress salesman's basic pitch to sell you up is that 1/3 of your life is spent on your mattress so it should be easy to spend more money on something as important as your mattress, box springs and bedding. Consider how important your wife is to your future health and happiness then decide what investments, financial, emotional, time, etc., which YOU are willing to make.

I'll share that when we began dating, my wife was curious why I was choosing to come live in Eastern Europe for a few years. She sort of "tested" me I think for the first few months. For a couple of months she was dating others and I knew I had to "win" her. Unlike some (no names) I chose not to try to take her to fancy restaurants, buy her a car, giver her a credit card, subsidize her apartment remont or the like. Instead, I concentrated on settling in to her culture, finding work, staying in contact and doing my best to be clear that I was willing to invest almost every non-working hour in getting to know her and putting together a long-term relationship. Eventually we decided to move-in together in a monogamous relationship and see how compatible we were. Apparently nothing insurmountable was discovered by each of us and we married, then lived in Ukraine for 2 more years.

Do you need to move there and "prove" your love? Not necessarily, but you should do what you can to make clear to yourself, her and the world (or at least the Canadian govt.) that you are in this for the long-haul and not some short-term deal to get her in-country.

Best of luck to you and be careful what plans or strategies you post on a public forum.

[Sculpto]

Ecocks.. despite whatever disagreements we have had I want you to know that I really respect the committment you made to winning your wife's heart.  I suspect that because of sucha monumental effort you will be one of those who achieves "Till death do us part".

Props to you!