School help for my wife?

[Faux Pas]

A major cause of crime is hopelessness, despair and a sense of being trapped. The upwardly mobile "American dream" is a well known fallacy and those that are born in poverty in the US tend to die there. Take a look and I'm sure you'll find the research.

One could only surmise that your hatred of America is born of jealously. The American Dream is alive and well for those with enough fortitude to grasp and go get it. Those looking to be handed the American Dream will be met with limited response. Believe it or not SJ there are still large numbers of people world wide who strongly believe one should work and earn for what they receive. Your attitude reeks of an entitlement junkie. America is still a place where one born in poverty has ample opportunity to bring themselves out of it if they so choose. Normally this is attained through education (widely available) ingenuity or just plain hard work.

Your blanket statements on poverty and ladies looking for foreign husbands are pure BS. Seems  to be some sort of affirmations on which you base your blatant hatred. Why must you cast dispersions on America to convince yourself of the greatness of your own country?  

[Ade]

One could only surmise that your hatred of America is born of jealously.

I recall that we've had this exchange before and I told you then that I don't hate America or its people and, even if I were the jealous type which I'm not, I certainly have nothing to be jealous of.

Your attitude reeks of an entitlement junkie.

Entitlement? Sheesh, you don't get it do you? I pay through the nose for the safety net that I'm provided. Of course I'm entitled to it. Nothing is free in this life, there's just a difference in how you pay for it, how much you pay, what you get back and who is entitled to get the benefits.

America is still a place where one born in poverty has ample opportunity to bring themselves out of it if they so choose. Normally this is attained through education (widely available) ingenuity or just plain hard work.

My guess is that I was born into more poverty than most of the guys here so please do not lecture me.

Your blanket statements on poverty and ladies looking for foreign husbands are pure BS. Seems  to be some sort of affirmations on which you base your blatant hatred. Why must you cast dispersions on America to convince yourself of the greatness of your own country?  

Seems to me that a lot of American's have problems facing up to the truth. 

[Blues Fairy]

What about working people?  Where is guarantee that the companies will create more well-paid jobs that let "husbands  buy life insurance"?

You think jobs are created out of charity?  Companies pay good bucks to attract top talent.  If it can be found in China for less money and less hassle (hiring tax, etc.), then China it is.  However, if hiring top talent within the country is easier, then no outsourcing will damage the fortunes of the domestic "working class".  Provided, of course, that this working class is actually able and willing to compete for good jobs, not just sit on their fat azzes and wait for the government to provide for them.  

[OlgaH]

Companies pay good bucks to attract top talent.  If it can be found in China for less money and less hassle (hiring tax, etc.), then China it is. However, if hiring top talent within the country is easier, then no outsourcing will damage the fortunes of the domestic "working class".  Provided, of course, that this working class is actually able and willing to compete for good jobs, not just sit on their fat azzes and wait for the government to provide for them.   

Do you really think that, for example, the Chinese seamstresses are much talented than the American seamstresses, who "just sit on their fat azzes and wait for the government to provide for them"?  That's the problem that the Chinese seamstresses in China are much cheaper.

[Blues Fairy]

Do you really think that, for example, the Chinese seamstresses are much talented than the American seamstresses, who "just sit on their fat azzes and wait for the government to provide for them"?  That's the problem that the Chinese seamstresses in China are much cheaper.

If the talented American seamstress is not motivated to advance her education and is content to remain on low-paying job all her life, then I'm afraid she'll have to compete with the cheap, but not less talented, Chinese seamstresses. 

If I am content being a low-paid HTML coder and fail to advance my skills, i.e. learn more complex technologies and applications, then by all means let my future employers fire me and hire a bunch of students in Bangalore.  My own fault.   

[OlgaH]

If the talented American seamstress is not motivated to advance her education and is content to remain on low-paying job all her life, then I'm afraid she'll have to compete with the cheap, but not less talented, Chinese seamstresses. 

Blues Fairy, take for example Charlotte Russe, a company that was opened California in 1975. Look at the labels: made in China, in Malaysia, in Vietnam... How many American women could get a job if the Charlotte Russe's factories would be in US. But most likely Charlotte Russe prefer to pay $1-$2 per hour to Chinese and Vietnamese workers than $10-15 per hour to the American women and care about their medical insurance and working place regulations. 

[Blues Fairy]

Blues Fairy, take for example Charlotte Russe, a company that was opened California in 1975. Look at the labels: made in China, in Malaysia, in Vietnam... How many American women could get a job if the Charlotte Russe's factories would be in US. But most likely Charlotte Russe prefer to pay $1-$2 per hour to Chinese and Vietnamese workers than $10-15 per hour to the American women and care about their medical insurance and working place regulations. 

Yes, yes, the capitalists are EVIL and they oppress the poor working class.  :evil:

What % of American women is unemployed?  7%?  And how many of those would accept a sewing job for $10/hr, instead of comfortably sitting on their unemployment checks?  Perhaps the same lot who wouldn't take the jobs done by illegal immigrants, thus justifying their indefinite stay in this country? 

[Faux Pas]

I recall that we've had this exchange before and I told you then that I don't hate America or its people and, even if I were the jealous type which I'm not, I certainly have nothing to be jealous of.

Oh yes, we've had similar discussions before. You stated you didn't hate America then too but, your continual need mock and cast dispersions directly at America states something else entirely. I have no idea what you are jealous of but, your hatred is evident.

Entitlement? Sheesh, you don't get it do you? I pay through the nose for the safety net that I'm provided. Of course I'm entitled to it. Nothing is free in this life, there's just a difference how you pay for it, how much you pay, what you get back and who is entitled to get the benefits.

I "get it" much more than you'll ever know. Do you think Norwegians are the only ones who pay through the nose? Is this an attempt to explain class welfare system to me? I congratulate you on finding your perfect system and society. There's a butt for every bucket but please, spare us how perfect and utopian Norway is. It's not.  

My guess is that I was born into more poverty then most of the guys here so please do not lecture me

. Well that is only a guess and as stereotypical as most of your statements. Call it lecture or what ever you will, makes no difference to me. I have likely forgotten more abject poverty than you have ever experienced. I am relatively sure one as arrogant as you doesn't know the sufferings of poverty.

Seems to me that a lot of American's have problems facing up to the truth. 

SJ, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the asz. If you are looking for backslaps and handshakes for demeaning the country I love and am inherently proud of, think again. Your remarks are not cleaver nor true. Perhaps if you keep making such statements they'll come true. Don't hold your breath.  

[OlgaH]

What % of American women is unemployed?  7%?  And how many of those would accept a sewing job for $10/hr, instead of comfortably sitting on their unemployment checks?  Perhaps the same lot who wouldn't take the jobs done by illegal immigrants, thus justifying their indefinite stay in this country? 

Yes, Blues Fairy, $10/h is not enough to pay for medical and life insurance. And companies don't want to rise wages. And where is guarantee that they will do it if you will cut taxes for the companies    when the federal minimum is $7.25/h

Question is how many sewing jobs are on US job market when the most of the sewing factories in Asia.

[pitbull]

If the talented American seamstress is not motivated to advance her education and is content to remain on low-paying job all her life, then I'm afraid she'll have to compete with the cheap, but not less talented, Chinese seamstresses. 

If I am content being a low-paid HTML coder and fail to advance my skills, i.e. learn more complex technologies and applications, then by all means let my future employers fire me and hire a bunch of students in Bangalore.  My own fault.   

BF,

Even if every seamstress and factory worker were willing and able to suddenly go get an MBA or an equivalent degree, the market simply doesn't have the capacity to provide them all with higher-paying jobs.

You seem to think that only menial, low-paid jobs are outsourced, and provided you further your education in the US, you're guaranteed a good job. The problem is that both "low-paid HTML coder" jobs AND high-level programming jobs are being outsourced now. No matter how much you learn, there are scores of Indians etc available with the same level of qualification. The only difference is that they will do the same high-skilled job for a quarter of what an American will be paid.

The outsourcing problem has very little to do with tax system for businesses in America (if anything, outsourcing has been the highest during Bush presidency where corporations got nifty tax cuts). It is about the best way to make profit for companies - both low and high skilled workers are scores cheaper abroad than in the US. Companies will keep outsourcing even if the government cuts taxes even further.

I can use my husband's job in business consulting as an example. His  firm hires young people with graduate degrees from top 3 Universities in the US, and in a course of several years they are trained in particularities of consulting "on site" No need to say they earn pretty good money. Guess what? Recently, they have been hiring people from India and the Middle East, who went to the best schools in the US and Europe. They are "young and hungry" and are happy to be paid roughly 20% of their American colleagues for the same job.

it is not one-country job market any more, it is world-wide. For All jobs, not just low-skilled.

[OlgaH]

And how many of those would accept a sewing job for $10/hr, instead of comfortably sitting on their unemployment checks? 

Comfortably sitting on their unemployment checks?

What is my weekly benefit amount (WBA)?

It varies.  The minimum amount of benefits for an individual is $51 a week, and the maximum is $385 per week. Claimants with non-working spouses can receive up to $459 per week, and up to $534 a week with dependent children.  However, your benefits depend on your unique circumstances.
http://www.ides.state.il.us/individual/faq2.asp

Will you feel comfortable sitting on  $51 a week or $534 with dependent children? Job with $15/h is $720 (48 working hours) per week, 2880 per month... and it is not so much.

[Blues Fairy]

it is not one-country job market any more, it is world-wide. For All jobs, not just low-skilled.

And you think protectionism is the solution?  Let's not let businesses hire the most competitive talent, so "fairness" is upheld?

The result is that American businesses, too, cease being competitive because this top talent is hired by someone else and their cheap, high-quality product grabs the larger share of American market. 

Bon route with your "fairness", let's see where it will lead the country. 

[Ade]

Oh yes, we've had similar discussions before. You stated you didn't hate America then too but, your continual need mock and cast dispersions directly at America states something else entirely. I have no idea what you are jealous of but, your hatred is evident.

My guess is you're are projecting some insecurities about a country that you're obviously infatuated with. I think you have issues looking at your country's weaknesses.

And if you refuse to accept that I don't hate the US then there's little more I can say.

I "get it" much more than you'll ever know. Do you think Norwegians are the only ones who pay through the nose? Is this an attempt to explain class welfare system to me? I congratulate you on finding your perfect system and society. There's a butt for every bucket but please, spare us how perfect and utopian Norway is. It's not.  

No, it's not perfect, but to me it looks a lot closer to that ideal then the US does. The problem I have with the US is that most of the people there seem to be cock sure that it is the best society in every way and it's patently obvious to anyone with some objectivity, that it isn't. I guess that has a lot to do with the American propaganda machine and the gullibility of Joe Average.

And yes, I know you guys pay through the nose for insurances for medical care and the like. This makes the stories of people with medical insurance that have been bankrupted by medical bills even more obscene. And here's a little story to brighten your day; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20201807/ What a wonderful system you have. 

. Well that is only a guess and as stereotypical as most of your statements. Call it lecture or what ever you will, makes no difference to me. I have likely forgotten more abject poverty than you have ever experienced. I am relatively sure one as arrogant as you doesn't know the sufferings of poverty.

What a bizarre statement. I already said that I grew up in poverty and worked my arse off to get where I am today. Again, it seems that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

SJ, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the asz. If you are looking for backslaps and handshakes for demeaning the country I love and am inherently proud of, think again. Your remarks are not cleaver nor true. Perhaps if you keep making such statements they'll come true. Don't hold your breath.  

Just because you love a country doesn't mean you should be blind beyond reason to its faults. 

[Shadow]

Regarding the Chinese seamstresses I can tell you exactly where the difference is.

Chinese quality is actually better as US / EU produced. I have numerous examples of this.
The reason is exactly the high salaries. While productivity is higher in the US/EU in order to keep pricing relative equal, the productivity goes at cost of quality. On every 6 Chinese seamstresses sits one guy for quality control, to ensure that each piece is made according to the quality standard provided by the company ordering. Pieces escaping this quality control are very rare indeed, however if bad quality is requested it is made to order.

If you try to emulate this, put on every 6 seamstresses of $ 10 an hour a $30 an hour manager. The product will become impossible to afford at once.
One might conclude that with improving job conitions the prices will be equalled out. For some part this is true, as Taiwan already can not produce cheap labour goods. However China is immensely big, and there are still a lot of countries with untapped low-wage production potential. Unless people will refuse to pay $1 when they can pay $10 for a similar local-made product outsourcing is going to happen.

[Turboguy]

Personally I have no idea if the USA is the best country or not.  I don't even care.   I like it here.  I am proud of my country.  I see it heading down paths I don't like but they have good sides as well.  I would put Norway on the bottom of my list for a place to live.  Move it closer to the Mediterranean and I might reconsider.

Are the manufacturer's evil and ripping off the working class.  If they were wouldn't they be getting rich.  I can buy a share of GE cheaper than a toaster.  I can buy a hundred shares of an auto stock cheaper than a tune up.  It isn't a question of if they are ripping us off but rather can they stay in business.

The reality of it is, if they don't make their toasters or their dresses in China someone else will.  If they don't make their toasters in China no one will pay $ 75.00 for one just like another for $ 20.00 just because it is "Made in America".  

Do you think these manufacturers' WANT to relocate their plants to China?   Just think about it.   They have to deal with the laws and regulations of the Chinese govt.  They have to worry about having their plants nationalized.  They have to pay taxes to both country's.  They have to deal with expensive shipping and 6 weeks in transit.   They have to deal with finding plant leaders in an area where they don't speak the native language and don't have the in depth human resources available.  They have to worry that they might invest a billion dollares and then get hit with a 100% new tax.   Producting goods in China is difficult and risky and they would much rather build their products here, but we the American people and we the American workers don't give them that option.

[Shadow]

Personally I have no idea if the USA is the best country or not.  I don't even care.   I like it here.  I am proud of my country.  I see it heading down paths I don't like but they have good sides as well.  I would put Norway on the bottom of my list for a place to live.  Move it closer to the Mediterranean and I might reconsider.

I think you should be proud of the country where you were born, and the one where you live.
Norway may be a little cold in places, but it is definetely a very beautiful and well-developed country.

Which country is the best ? The one where you feel at home and are happy. No matter what its name or location is, or how other people see it.

[Ade]

Regarding the Chinese seamstresses I can tell you exactly where the difference is.

Chinese quality is actually better as US / EU produced. I have numerous examples of this.
The reason is exactly the high salaries. While productivity is higher in the US/EU in order to keep pricing relative equal, the productivity goes at cost of quality. On every 6 Chinese seamstresses sits one guy for quality control, to ensure that each piece is made according to the quality standard provided by the company ordering. Pieces escaping this quality control are very rare indeed, however if bad quality is requested it is made to order.

If you try to emulate this, put on every 6 seamstresses of $ 10 an hour a $30 an hour manager. The product will become impossible to afford at once.
One might conclude that with improving job conitions the prices will be equalled out. For some part this is true, as Taiwan already can not produce cheap labour goods. However China is immensely big, and there are still a lot of countries with untapped low-wage production potential. Unless people will refuse to pay $1 when they can pay $10 for a similar local-made product outsourcing is going to happen.

At least some of the problem is that the "reputable" manufacturers in developing countries further outsource large volumes of the work from the west to sweat shops that are filled with underpaid and usually under-age workers. There's a very high probability that most people reading this are wearing at least one piece of clothing manufactured by a child in a sweat shop - it's been shown that even companies that "guarantee" their clothing wasn't made in this way are unaware that their contractors, sub-contract to sweat shops.

Competition is only fair, when it's fair.

[pitbull]

And you think protectionism is the solution?  Let's not let businesses hire the most competitive talent, so "fairness" is upheld?

The result is that American businesses, too, cease being competitive because this top talent is hired by someone else and their cheap, high-quality product grabs the larger share of American market. 

Bon route with your "fairness", let's see where it will lead the country. 

where have you seen me promoting protectionism?

In the world economy, protectionism will make the product too expensive and it won't be able to compete on the global market.

I do not have the solution. In fact, I can only state that in these times, both "seamstresses" and "high-skilled programmers" are pretty screwed up 

[Shadow]

At least some of the problem is that the "reputable" manufacturers in developing countries further outsource large volumes of the work from the west to sweat shops that are filled with underpaid and usually under-age workers. There's a very high probability that most people reading this are wearing at least one piece of clothing manufactured by a child in a sweat shop - it's been shown that even companies that "guarantee" their clothing wasn't made in this way are unaware that their contractors, sub-contract to sweat shops.

Competition is only fair, when it's fair.

In many cases this is encouraged by the unscrupulos buyers who are out to get their bonus by pressing the manufacturer or agent tothe limit, often taking advantage of the corruptive system to get some extras. Production is simple math, cost of good + cost of labour + profit = price. When you nitice goods offered below this price, there isa problem.
Either someone does not get paid, or the product will not be to stanard

[Blues Fairy]

where have you seen me promoting protectionism?

I was referring to Olga's "fairness doctrine".
I don't think I am screwed up as long as I work hard to keep my skills up to date and competitive.  Besides, compared to the outsourced workforce, I will always have the advantage of being physically here and speaking the local language.  Good IT and solution selling specialists are never out of demand.

[OlgaH]

 If they don't make their toasters in China no one will pay $ 75.00 for one just like another for $ 20.00 just because it is "Made in America".  

Turboguy, what do you prefer: to have a well-paid job that let you pay $ 75.00 for toaster made in US or sit with two children on $500 unemployment paycheck (because all jobs are oroverseas or taking by less demanding Bangladesh students in US)   thinking what do you need more  a $ 20.00 China toaster or new boots for children.  

[OlgaH]

  Besides, compared to the outsourced workforce, I will always have the advantage of being physically here and speaking the local language.  Good IT and solution selling specialists are never out of demand.

It is wonderful to be so sure. But if an owner of a company prefers a not less skilled than you and also speaking the local language  Asian male who agrees to work for less wage and more over he will not get pregnant in the future... 

[pitbull]

I was referring to Olga's "fairness doctrine".
I don't think I am screwed up as long as I work hard to keep my skills up to date and competitive.  Besides, compared to the outsourced workforce, I will always have the advantage of being physically here and speaking the local language.  Good IT and solution selling specialists are never out of demand.

I wish you the best of luck, and optimism is a great thing to have  

[Blues Fairy]

It is wonderful to be so sure. But if an owner of a company prefers a not less skilled than you and also speaking the local language Asian male who agrees to work for less wage and more over he will not get pregnant in the future... 

 
Then I will look at some other employers, or update my skills so as to be more competitive.  And you, would you like the government to guarantee you a job at all times, like it was in the Soviet Union?  Even if it damages the economy of your country?

I wish you the best of luck, and optimism is a great thing to have 

Optimists make things happen.

[Mishenka]

I was referring to Olga's "fairness doctrine".
I don't think I am screwed up as long as I work hard to keep my skills up to date and competitive.  Besides, compared to the outsourced workforce, I will always have the advantage of being physically here and speaking the local language.  Good IT and solution selling specialists are never out of demand.

I agree, especially with highly skilled IT Networking Security engineers will always be employed at the highest pay because of supply is very low and demand is extremely high. Entry level IT networking  security people earn 67 K to start with 5 years experience, easy over 100,000 per year salary. No problem with job security in this field and never will be.