When *she* wants a prenup

[roykirk]

I've been away for quite a while.  Moved across the country for a new job and I've been busy getting things prepared for my girl's arrival at the end of May.  For those of you who don't know me, we've been together for over a year, I've made 4 trips over to see her and meet family during that time, and she's made a couple of trips here on her tourist visa.  Truly one of the most wonderful women I have ever met and I'm looking forward to our life together.

Anyway, she threw me a curve ball today when we were talking on the phone about her impending arrival.  She wanted to know if we should consider a prenuptial agreement.  If she wants one that discusses what happens if there is a divorce, I guess I'm all for that even though it's probably a topic I never would have broached on my own.  I have a good-sized pension, and what better opportunity to make sure what I've accumulated prior our marriage is protected?  The part that really threw me, however, is that she suggested we should enter some things in the contract about my obligations until she's able to find a job.  She has two college degrees and speaks fluent English, and she's one of the most driven women I've ever met, so I don't anticipate she'll be sitting around too much (plus she's always been a frugal spender...bought her own place at age 24).  I had told her we could easily afford for her to fly home twice a year, if not more, and that I'd provide some sort of monthly allowance for her until she's able to find a full time job.  But she suggests we should put this in the prenup so she's protected.

I guess what's thrown me is that these are all things I'd do for her regardless of a prenup, but to have her ask for some sort of guarantee has knocked me a bit askew.  But then again she's a professional businesswoman and I realize I'm asking her to give up a lot to come here.  Maybe she's just being sensible and making sure she's protected as much as I'd like to protect my pension that I accumulated before we got married.  The main problem I have with such provisions in a contract is this:  What happens if we fall on hard financial times and I lose my job or something?  Maybe that sort of exception could be written in to a contract?

[GoodOlBoy]

Sorry Roykirk, BUT...GoodOlBoy would say BYE, BYE to this lady. 


GOB

[roykirk]

Well, that's not going to happen.  If I raised enough of a stink about it, she'd likely let it drop.  But I'm trying to put myself in her shoes and recognize the risk she's taking by coming here as well.

[GoodOlBoy]

But I'm trying to put myself in her shoes and recognize the risk she's taking by coming here as well.

Eveybody takes a "risk" in this endeavor.  :noidea:


GOB


BTW...I know some RWD members will howl about his, BUT...Marriage is not a "business deal" (atleast for me it isn't).

  But then again she's a professional businesswoman and I realize I'm asking her to give up a lot to come here. 

[Ade]

Personally, I wouldn't think that there's anything wrong with her wanting a prenup although I think I would feel a little disappointed that she didn't trust me. But it's understandable if you consider some of the horrendous ways some of these women have been treated; they have as many, if not more bad stories on their forums...

Just make sure the prenup is fair to both of you.

[roykirk]

Personally, I wouldn't think that there's anything wrong with her wanting a prenup although I think I would feel a little disappointed that she didn't trust me. But it's understandable if you consider some of the horrendous ways some of these women have been treated; they have as many, if not more bad stories on their forums...

Just make sure the prenup is fair to both of you.

I guess that's more along the lines of what I was thinking.  At first I was quite hurt that she even brought the topic up, but then I asked myself why it was fair for a man to ask a woman for a prenup, but not for a woman.  I think some sort of financial allowance until she gets a full time job would be reasonable.  I just have no idea on how much, or even if you put that sort of thing in a contract.  She's the kind of girl who will go insane if she doesn't have a job in a year or less, so it's not like she's just going to be sitting around.  Probably smart to put some sort of sunset clause on it too. 

[Shadow]

The two of you are going to be married, and should plan their life together as one.
That means, to my eyes, that the monye you make is hers, and the money she makes is hers (oops...yours).

To make a contract about a monthly allowance seems like she is planning for separate lives.
If you make a prenup, make sure that it does not make the two of you living independent lives while being married. That will, IMHO lead to separate lives in the future...

[GoodOlBoy]

.....although I think I would feel a little disappointed that she didn't trust me.

At first I was quite hurt ......

I would be devastated.

....but then I asked myself why it was fair for a man to ask a woman for a prenup,....

It's not fair in my opinion for either man or woman to turn a loving marriage into a "contract".

It smells of Ambach....and a couple of others. 


GOB

[vwrw]

The part that really threw me, however, is that she suggested we should enter some things in the contract about my obligations until she's able to find a job.  She has two college degrees and speaks fluent English, and she's one of the most driven women I've ever met, so I don't anticipate she'll be sitting around too much (plus she's always been a frugal spender...bought her own place at age 24). 

Whatever degree, drive, characteristics she has, I would not undertake the obligation she wants from you. It is too risky.   

[Mishenka]

The terms of your K1 sponsorship already include provisions for her financial support while in the USA. This should be enough security for her.  Put on the brakes! Any time a prenup is mentioned it means there is not a strong enough level of trust in the relationship to consider marriage.  I would wait until this trust and love develops before you marry her. If I don't love the woman enough to share 100% of all I have, there is no reason to bring her into a marriage with me. I' sure she will feel the same.

Mishenka

[Ravens9273]

I am only going to comment on my first reaction to reading this. I just had natural reaction that she has other plans then a long term marriage. My reaction here was GCG by what was written. I may be wrong but this is feeling I instantly got reading your post.

[HiTech]

roykirk: I do not believe what she is asking for can be put into a prenup. Normally prenups are contracts for what happens if you decide to separate, Not what happens while you are married. 2 issues very quickly arise with what she is asking for. You can not have a contract with out giving consideration from both parties, I.E. you can not have an enforcible contract if both parties are not giving and getting something. For your agreement to provide for her during her adjustment stage, what are you getting in return?

Her agreeing to marry you is not consideration.

What happens if you do not fulfill the terms of the contract? She divorces you and tries to enforce the contract for which she gave no consideration? I.E. It does not really give her any protection.

It sounds to me as if you 2 have much talking to do about this subject.

HiTech

[groovlstk]

Welcome back, Roykirk.

For those of you who don't know me, we've been together for over a year, I've made 4 trips over to see her and meet family during that time, and she's made a couple of trips here on her tourist visa.

One of the most troubling things about your post is that your fiancee has had the benefit of visiting you on your own turf - she's seen your home, your standard of living, how you will care for her, etc.

FWIW, my wife never had an allowance. From the time she arrived there was no more my money and her money - just our $.

[roykirk]

Welcome back, Roykirk.

One of the most troubling things about your post is that your fiancee has had the benefit of visiting you on your own turf - she's seen your home, your standard of living, how you will care for her, etc.

FWIW, my wife never had an allowance. From the time she arrived there was no more my money and her money - just our $.

Well, actually, I live in a two bedroom apartment and have nothing fancy.  Besides her engagement ring and a birthday present, I've spent hardly a dime on her.  She's rarely let me spend money on her, even arguing over letting me pay for cab fare when I've been in Russia.  So for me, the fact that she's visited here doesn't have much to do with it.  I think it's more that she's fiercely independent, and has been for a long time.  She was traveling the world on her own dime long before I met her.  I think she's genuinely scared about giving up this independence, and wants to make sure she's not going to get screwed over by giving up everything she has by moving here with me. 

In any case, I'll consult with an attorney and see if what she's asking for would even be allowed in a prenuptial agreement. 

[UTRO]

Roykirk, I wouldn't get all strung up by what she is asking for. Have you talked together about this? It may simply be that she has fears about the impending move. Any Russian Woman taking the ultimate risk of giving up All to join you in a country that she has very few rights in, or perceives that she doesn't have, is more than expected to have anxiety and uncertainty. Look at it as being a testament to her intelligence. She is thinking hard about all this and is trying to protect her interests if all goes to not! What other man has she put so much trust into, besides her own father?
I would sit down with her and talk about this in a Loving, non defensive and non confrontational way. "Sweetie, I understand everything you are telling me. You are giving up so much to with me... I Love you and want to reassure you that no matter what happens, I am a man of my word and you can depend on me without a contract saying so. The American government guarantees your rights and protects you"... and show her proof of this.
I would tell her that whatever she brings into the relationship, ie money from selling her flat, that you will have no claim to it if things go wrong. Any property you purchase together will be divided in half, after giving back what she brought in. That could be written into a prenup. I mean think about it... what if after 5 years things go sour, she goes back to Russia and the flat she has now is worth 2 or 3 times more than what she sold it for? Quite possibly she won't be able afford it. What a kick in the gonads that would be for her! How would you feel starting over with nothing? There are certain things a prenup should outline and an allowance and plane ticket home isn't two of them. This should be worked out between yourselves. Again, it could be that she doesn't completely understand prenups and what she is asking for.....

[roykirk]

Roykirk, I wouldn't get all strung up by what she is asking for. Have you talked together about this? It may simply be that she has fears about the impending move. Any Russian Woman taking the ultimate risk of giving up All to join you in a country that she has very few rights in, or perceives that she doesn't have, is more than expected to have anxiety and uncertainty. Look at it as being a testament to her intelligence. She is thinking hard about all this and is trying to protect her interests if all goes to not! What other man has she put so much trust into, besides her own father?
I would sit down with her and talk about this in a Loving, non defensive and non confrontational way. "Sweetie, I understand everything you are telling me. You are giving up so much to with me... I Love you and want to reassure you that no matter what happens, I am a man of my word and you can depend on me without a contract saying so. The American government guarantees your rights and protects you"... and show her proof of this.
I would tell her that whatever she brings into the relationship, ie money from selling her flat, that you will have no claim to it if things go wrong. Any property you purchase together will be divided in half, after giving back what she brought in. That could be written into a prenup. I mean think about it... what if after 5 years things go sour, she goes back to Russia and the flat she has now is worth 2 or 3 times more than what she sold it for? Quite possibly she won't be able afford it. What a kick in the gonads that would be for her! How would you feel starting over with nothing? There are certain things a prenup should outline and an allowance and plane ticket home isn't two of them. This should be worked out between yourselves. Again, it could be that she doesn't completely understand prenups and what she is asking for.....

Thanks for the great advice, Utrobina.  We'll be talking more in the coming days about her concerns.  It's possible she visited some RW in American forum and got latched on to by some bitter person who warned her against coming and told her to test me by asking for a prenup and/or certain guarantees.  "If he's an honest person, he won't have a problem promising you such things.  If he's up to no good, watch him get indignant and defensive."  I can hear it now. 

[Doll]

. I Love you and want to reassure you that no matter what happens, I am a man of my word and you can depend on me without a contract saying so. The American government guarantees your rights and protects you".

Apparently, "she" knows how ugly people are when they deal with the divorce ( just take this forum with all the advises that you, AM, give each other). As for the American government that guarantees the rights and protects RW- give me a break!
If there is no property acquired in marriage- then "she" knows what she is doing ( I mean if her husband-to-be already owns the house)

[Ooooops]

I'm confused - your fiancée wants in written words that you'll support her while she's looking for work while you are married to her or in case of divorce?   

[roykirk]

I'm confused - your fiancée wants in written words that you'll support her while she's looking for work while you are married to her or in case of divorce?   

I'm trying to figure that out too.  The best I can figure right now is that she wants something to promises I'll take care of her until we get married and she finds a job.  I'm trying to explain to her she already has that protection through the K-1 process.  It's not a deal killer for her, and as I said I've already sensed that she'll let the issue die if I raise a stink about it.  I'm more concerned about addressing her fears.   She's obviously scared about this big life change she's about to take, and I clearly have some work to do to make her more at ease.

[Ooooops]

I'm trying to figure that out too.  The best I can figure right now is that she wants something to promises I'll take care of her until we get married and she finds a job. 

Oh, I see....   Then, I'm sorry to say, she has her doubts in you....      Or she reads too many RW forums....   

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh, I see....   Then, I'm sorry to say, she has her doubts in you....      Or she reads too many RW forums....   

Yeah.....Or maybe theres something else more sinister afoot?


GOB

[Ooooops]

Or maybe something else more sinister?

Like what, for example?

[ECOCKS]

Welcome back, Roykirk.

One of the most troubling things about your post is that your fiancee has had the benefit of visiting you on your own turf - she's seen your home, your standard of living, how you will care for her, etc.

FWIW, my wife never had an allowance. From the time she arrived there was no more my money and her money - just our $.

Roy, you say she's solid and your opinion on that is the one that is important. I suggest you have a long conversation with her explaining joint accounts, your standards and expectations. I would also take the time to explain to her your state's community property laws and general guidelines on divorce, support and property settlements. This will be new to her as will the concept that generally the courts will enforce the laws fairly, if anything favoring her rather than you.

As for allowance, like Groov, I cannot conceive of giving my wife an "allowance." I am into the whole partnership thing with no reservations. My wife has ATM cards on our accounts, has a list of where our money is parked and knows that if she wants/needs money she's to use a card or grab my wallet. If she grabs the wallet I told her to always leave at least $20 and mention to me that she was in it. This resulted several times in detailed accountings, with receipts, on how every penny was spent before she understood that I only wanted to be aware that the amount in the wallet was not what I expected. She still isn't sure why I don't care what she does with the money but will now only do it for groceries, bill payments, etc. If she wants a new blouse or pair of shoes she still makes a specific request.

So, I don't particularly see a red flag on this. Only concern and maybe a need for clarification on her program for integrating and finding work. What timelines, study programs, job search processes, etc.

[Ooooops]

If she wants a new blouse or pair of shoes she still makes a specific request.

That's terrible...   

[ECOCKS]

That's terrible...   

Yeah, drives me nuts!