In Kharkov April 27 to May 24

[CCowboy]

What I'm really trying to do is simply explain that what Mila and I had discussed as a game plan prior to my arrival got side tracked.  Mila went about business as she had successfuly done with previous clients using her same approach.  What some members who responded seem to read into my posts what they want to read, such as Ravens9273 that 34 y.o. "N" responded to my ad.  She DID NOT and was a personal introduction from Mila.  If the members agree that a 34 y.o. is too young for a 64 y.o. man, and I agree completely, why did Mila arrange the meeting or that with the 30 y.o.?  I did the ad campaign before and I do not expect 10-15 Miss Ukraine calibre women to line up.  

But I was very clear from the beginning that women too young, women with dependent children, women who wanted children, women who smoke and are drinkers, or women who it is obvious from their height and weight, and 165cm and about 75-80 kg is obvious, are women I am not interested in meeting.  Although exchanging phtos prior to meeting would have been nice, i didn't demand it.  For those who use agencies, are you willing to meet a woman without seeing her photo and at least knowing some basic information about her?  Age wise, I told Mila that my preference was women in their mid-40's.  Of the 3 women friends Mila introduced me to, two were mid 40's and "N" was 34.  The ad was put together by Mila, which to this day I don't know exactly what it said.  Mila chose the 38-48 range and Mila used the term "beautiful".  

I agree that it was my fault not to insist ad approval before it was placed.  I trusted Mila to do something I should have taken control of, because she said "I know what to say".  Mila felt that everything that was necessary was in the ad so she assumed the women who responded met the requirements and asked no more questions other than to make an appointment to meet.

Some members some how seem to think I was trying to get Mila to find me a DDG photo model 30 years my juniour and convince her that I'm her prince.  Yes, slim and attractive is a criteria but beautiful wasn't and never has been.  I'm more concerned about a woman's inner qualities and abilty to adjust to life in the U.S.  Even a very pretty woman in her mid-40's but who has never studied English, can not drive a car, and all the other issues that are so different in the U.S. is going to have a difficult time adjusting.  The woman who was probably the best match for me and who I visited 4 times in Kharkov could not say "yes" to my proposal because she had a dying father and she was supporting her daugther at the university.  

Now she has a widowed mother, lost her good paying job, and is still trying to support her university aged daughter.  She is 41 and my age was never a factor and she knew from our first meeting that there was a 23 year age difference.  And she's pretty hot looking at 5'9" 130lbs and an even more incredible person.  But despite my best efforts, things did not work out...although we still keep in contact and are very close friends.  

Mila is a great gal and despite the problems I experienced, I flip-flop and say just because my trip didn't turn out as expected, it does not mean Mila is someone I wouldn't use in the future.  If I had insisted on writing my ad and insisted Mila is able to tell me details about a woman, just as Mila could have told the woman about me with the details I provided, I feel the outcome would have been different. and my trip report would have been different.  So, I wrote my TR as things happened and as accurately and honestly as I could have.  With this turning into some kind of debate, I'm almost sorry I wrote one at all.  Maybe this is one reason why fewer men share their expereinces about their trips.  Look at the TR log.  I think their were many more trips than those being posted.   I'M FINISHED!!      

[Ravens9273]

CC

You are 64. Women in the age group you are seeking are not lined up wanting to meet a 64 year old.

Your ad was not appealing to Women in Ukraine.
I am sure if you had all the responses you had hoped for then Mila would have sorted out the young ones etc...
However you did not get the repsonses you thought.
If Mila did not set up a meeting for you with a 34 year old then your TR report would be complaining she did nothing for you and you met no Women.


If Mila wrote the ad then you should have looked over it. This is your fault for not taking part in the ad writting or at least proof reading it.

You do not want to face the fact Women did not want to answer your ad. You are unhappy because the truth was told of your age. Do you really want to meet a Women by dishonest means?
Should a Women not be able to make up her own mind as to who she wants to meet?
If she is traveling 5 hours by train should she not know who she is meeting?
If they were not interested in a 64 year old from an ad then they will not be interested in you finding out at meeting you are 64. At least it is the proper thing to do to not deceive them and waste their time and money on a meeting.

They were not happy with the product advertised.
Because of this Mila had to go the extra mile and find other ladies for you to meet so that your trip was not wasted.

What does she get for her efforts?
She gets her reputation trashed.

You are not Brad Pitt. You are 64.
This is a fact of life you cannot change.

What you are not realizing.
There is nothing wrong with meeting a 34 year old. It was better then sitting in a flat. It does not mean everything has to lead to marriage. Is there something wrong with having a nice day with a 34 year old who could grow into a very good friend?

You went to Ukraine for a Month. You expected Mila to line Women up for you to meet for a whole month. That is a tall order when the Man in question is 64.

Like I said, if she did adzactly as you asked you would have had NO meetings and been writting a whole different TR complaining about that.

You need to be realistic. You need to accept your age and not hide it.

You just wrote again how knowing information about a person is important before a meeting yet YOU want to hide information about yourself. You cannot have one without the other.

You are missing a vaulable point. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know everything about a person before meeting. In fact that should be a given. I would not meet someone I do not know anything about. However if I am demanding to know so much. In kind I should return the favor and give all information about myself as well.
You on the other hand want to hold back some of the most important information about yourself.
This is where you went wrong.

[ECOCKS]

First of all, I do not know Mila except through her reputation on the board.

I see/read problems on both sides here.

Mila is in a personal service business and her customer is disappointed in her carry-through of his requests/needs. She could have turned this business down if she couldn't or wouldn't be able to provide what he requested. CC says he was clear in his instructions and since we have only his side, we pretty much have to buy into what appears to be inconsistent preparation on her part to question and pre-qualify the women. He discussed it with her, modified his payment, somewhat made the best of it and returned from his trip.

Mila has setup her business and provided satisfactory service to other members. She's trying and, as mentioned by a couple of others, cannot be perfect. She overreached this time and now has to take the lesson learned and translate it to how it will affect her business actions in the future. It sounds to me like the KEY to her issue in this instance was client communication and being sure she has a true understanding of what the client REALLY wants her to do for her fees. Live and learn but keep moving onward.

As for CC, a few things have to be acknowledged in yourself.

First, it was your trip, you were ultimately responsible. You mention that you had a "backup" plan but seem to be spending more time sideswiping Mila's performance and dwelling on the women you met through her rather than giving a balanced trip report. You're coming across a bit on the whiny and finger-pointing side so you might want to decide whether you are doing a Kharkiv TR or a review of Mila's business service.

Second, unless I misread something, being vague about your age, having expectations of finding someone within 20 years of your age who has no children and setting high appearance criteria is sounding like you're shopping for a trophy. That's come through from several experienced board members so you might want to take some of the feedback to heart and ask yourself if there is something you are missing in your self-assessment.

Third, if you are going back to Kharkiv again and state you are willing to give Mila another shot, you may need to strengthen your communication skills. Mila is fluent and has been in the middle of this relationship business a few other times but YOU are the one going halfway around the world. Maybe you and her can salvage this with more communication and determining what needs to change rather than searching for who to blame, denials, etc. which should give a better understood set of expectations on both sides. You probably should require a picture of the woman before agreeing to the date the next time around.

That was with regard to your trip.

As for the Monday Morning QB'ing, I would suggest to you that you get more realistic with your age range and more forthright in your ad, putting in more information on yourself and your own recent picture. Yes, that is judgmental. My advice is to set 45 as your threshold age with grown children as acceptable and be willing to become a step-grandparent in the near future. Otherwise, many people are going to judge you as in search of a trophy rather than a wife. You also need to improve your backup planning and take responsibility for your own vacation. Using concierge services and having someone on the ground is fine and dandy but you are the one who is doing this, for the taxi drivers, interpreters, agency owners and apartment landlords, you're just another client in a country where customer service is still in its infancy.

Last thing might be whether you should be in Kharkiv. Staying in Kyiv might be a whole lot more conducive to achieving your goals. The larger population makes it easier to deal with contingencies (remember your backup planning) and Mila can still provide you screening, apartment-hunting services and such by coming over to look at the apartment, meeting the women and checking things out as your agent.

Hope this all works out for you!

Ed

[Az1]

Having gone to Kharkiv in Feb this year, and used Mila's translating/interpreting services. I can understand CC's point of view. When i have more time i will write a trip report, for any members who are interested in reading it.

I had a similar experience to C.C's when I met a girl through Mila. Before our date, Mila tells me that she has met this girl before and that she was nice. As it turns out this girl had a child and i didn't find out, till our third date. Mila told me she had no idea. Which i find hard to believe.

Before going to Kharkiv i specifically asked Mila that i didn't want to meet any single mothers. but 50% of the women i met through Mila were single mothers. When i tryed to explain to Mila i wasn't happy, she also said to me  "Don't worry, i know what i am doing". I had a feeling she might be doing this intentionally and i think C.C's experiences have confirmed this.

However, I don't agree with withholding her fee, since she did do some work

Thank you for reading, my first post as a member guys.

[Faux Pas]

What I'm really trying to do is simply explain that what Mila and I had discussed as a game plan prior to my arrival got side tracked.  Mila went about business as she had successfuly done with previous clients using her same approach.  What some members who responded seem to read into my posts what they want to read, such as Ravens9273 that 34 y.o. "N" responded to my ad.  She DID NOT and was a personal introduction from Mila.  If the members agree that a 34 y.o. is too young for a 64 y.o. man, and I agree completely, why did Mila arrange the meeting or that with the 30 y.o.?  I did the ad campaign before and I do not expect 10-15 Miss Ukraine calibre women to line up.  

But I was very clear from the beginning that women too young, women with dependent children, women who wanted children, women who smoke and are drinkers, or women who it is obvious from their height and weight, and 165cm and about 75-80 kg is obvious, are women I am not interested in meeting.  Although exchanging phtos prior to meeting would have been nice, i didn't demand it.  For those who use agencies, are you willing to meet a woman without seeing her photo and at least knowing some basic information about her?  Age wise, I told Mila that my preference was women in their mid-40's.  Of the 3 women friends Mila introduced me to, two were mid 40's and "N" was 34.  The ad was put together by Mila, which to this day I don't know exactly what it said.  Mila chose the 38-48 range and Mila used the term "beautiful".  

I agree that it was my fault not to insist ad approval before it was placed.  I trusted Mila to do something I should have taken control of, because she said "I know what to say".  Mila felt that everything that was necessary was in the ad so she assumed the women who responded met the requirements and asked no more questions other than to make an appointment to meet.

Some members some how seem to think I was trying to get Mila to find me a DDG photo model 30 years my juniour and convince her that I'm her prince.  Yes, slim and attractive is a criteria but beautiful wasn't and never has been.  I'm more concerned about a woman's inner qualities and abilty to adjust to life in the U.S.  Even a very pretty woman in her mid-40's but who has never studied English, can not drive a car, and all the other issues that are so different in the U.S. is going to have a difficult time adjusting.  The woman who was probably the best match for me and who I visited 4 times in Kharkov could not say "yes" to my proposal because she had a dying father and she was supporting her daugther at the university.  

Now she has a widowed mother, lost her good paying job, and is still trying to support her university aged daughter.  She is 41 and my age was never a factor and she knew from our first meeting that there was a 23 year age difference.  And she's pretty hot looking at 5'9" 130lbs and an even more incredible person.  But despite my best efforts, things did not work out...although we still keep in contact and are very close friends.  

Mila is a great gal and despite the problems I experienced, I flip-flop and say just because my trip didn't turn out as expected, it does not mean Mila is someone I wouldn't use in the future.  If I had insisted on writing my ad and insisted Mila is able to tell me details about a woman, just as Mila could have told the woman about me with the details I provided, I feel the outcome would have been different. and my trip report would have been different.  So, I wrote my TR as things happened and as accurately and honestly as I could have.  With this turning into some kind of debate, I'm almost sorry I wrote one at all.  Maybe this is one reason why fewer men share their expereinces about their trips.  Look at the TR log.  I think their were many more trips than those being posted.   I'M FINISHED!!      

I was afraid it might happen. That CC would become a whipping boy for posting a quasi TR or he perceiving himself as a whipping boy. CC please don't get offended. You have long known everyone won't see or agree with your POV. When you post a TR it opens up to criticism of your every word. It is unfortunate but, it is what it is. There is a lot to learn here for the novice and newbies alike. It's been a good thread.

[GoodOlBoy]

My advice is to set 45 as your threshold age....

Even with 45 yo's, CCowboy is looking at almost 20 years of age difference.

Opinions are like assh*les (everybody's got one), BUT...........I would have to say 50yo FSUW and above (just to keep it in the 10-15 year age gap) might be more realistic given CCowboy's age and search criteria (no children, no responsibilities, etc.).



GOB

[ECOCKS]

That it has.

And there are lessons to be learned here. For guys looking for FSUW as well as for those wishing to service the market provided by these guys. Everyone can learn from this situation and discussion.

And Rick:

I suggested 45 as a minimum threshold to give him a less than 20 year gap and allow a better chance for her kids to get grown or at least into University. The range does widen out a bit and I agree 20 years is rough, but the right people......? Anyway, 45-48-50, our opinions are suiggestions, he needs to look them over and pick his own criteria.

Best of luck CC and I hope Mila understands the feedback without the usual FSU defensiveness of receiving critical feedback.

[Faux Pas]

Even with 45 yo's, CCowboy is looking at almost 20 years of age difference.

Opinions are like assh*les (everybody's got one), BUT...........I would have to say 50yo FSUW and above (just to keep it in the 10-15 year age gap) might be more realistic given CCowboy's age and criteria (no children, no responsibilities, etc.).




GOB

A good rule of thumb, I know it doesn't fit MANY of the men members here but, for me personally, I would date the same age range in the FSU that I do at home. I've dated enough very young at home to know that I don't want to date them anymore.

[facetrock]

CC your expectations baffle me. You want a woman in her early fortys that has no dependent children. Where have you been? Must not have been to the FSU because children are dependent on their parents far longer than they are here. Hell, most will live with their parents into their late twenties or thirties if they arent married.

38 to 48, I am 49 and thats the age group I look at and I am 15 years younger than you and yes I look young for my age. That is until my three daughters remind me that I look like I a man in his fortys. As much competition that is out there and as much attention as an attractive women in her early fortys gets by hundreds of men my age and younger. Do you really believe they will drop everything and come running to a 64 year old man? My God get real.

Be honest, you didnt want your age posted because you knew what would happen. Few or no replies. But at the same time you were very concerned about their age, weight and beauty. You wanted to have these women meet you knowing full well they would not expect you to be 644. And in your mind your age could be brushed away by your percieved notion that once they met you, you only appeared to look 50. My God get real again.

Beautiful women in their fortys can get all kinds of men that actually are 50, they dont need or want 64 year old men who think they look 50.

I agree Mila made a mistake and I hope she has learned. Beware of men who have unrealistic expectations. They whine and cry when hot women twenty plus years younger show no interest.

One more thing. You stiffed a young 24 year old Ukrainian woman out of a hundred and some dollars. Feel better about yourself now?

[CCowboy]

I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions, especially from eCocks and JollyRats, where I felt I was being personally attacked and psychoanalyzed by a few other's like Ravens9273.  It is impossible for me to explain minute by minute, hour by hour, or even day by day everything that transpired between Mila and me.  Before I arrived and before the ad was placed, I sent Mila detailed information about myself, my appearance, including photos, my work, my family, and most anything a woman may want to know before meeting me.  Mila was free to answer any pre-meeting questions a woman might have, including my age.  I don't think it's unreasonable for me to know a woman's age, if she has school-aged children or wants children in the future, if she's a smoker, how tall she is and if her weight is unproportionally too much, as in 165cm and 75kg.  

My information was easily available to any woman who answered the ad.  I think I have every right if Mila tells me that a woman is 30 with a 7 y.o. to decline to meet her as I would for any of the afore mentioned issues.  Just as a woman can decline to meet me.  From the very beginning I told Mila I was primarily interested in a woman in her mid 40's....simply because at that age, usually the issues of depenedent children, and I mean school aged children, or wanting to have a child are not an issue.  I realize that women in their 30's and 40's often still live with parents, sometimes even when they are married.  Knowing where to draw the line about age is sometimes very difficult.  I 100% agree that generally a woman in her mid 40's and older is logically a better and more realistic age for a man in his mid 60's.  

The previous time I used an ad campaign it was recommended by the person I was working with that I don't list my age.  Simply list the age range I was looking for.  The information in the ad was mostly about me....information that would draw a woman's attention.  The ad was written by the person I was working with but approved by me.  There were over 40 responses and I met only a portion of the women.  Of the women I met, none had school aged children, most were 40 and over, not interested in having a common child, none were smokers, and none were 20-50 pounds over weight.  I met them sight unseen and didn't have a problem with that.  Some women I decided to meet just that one time and some women decided to meet me just that one time.  

But I had a great connection with two of the women that eventually became just the one woman.  She was 40, I visited her 4 times and is the one I mentioned earlier.  If my ad had said 63, would she had met me?  I doubt it.  Apparantly she didn't ask my age when she responded to the ad, but I told her on our first meeting and if it was a problem for her, that's OK.  It wasn't a problem.  I explained my previous experiences to Mila in detail before I arrived and tried to discuss the content of the ad.  All I ever got from Mila was don't worry.  "Don't worry about the ad, I know what to say"  "Don't worry about the apartment, I will find a good one at a good price."  Don't worry about the internet, you will have it".  "Don't worry about anything, I will take care of everything".  That was my fault for not insisting on a more detailed response.  

Like I wrote earlier, I can not post every conversation and every word that was exchanged between Mila and me.  But I know without a doubt that it was clear to Mila what I was looking for in a woman and it was not a DDG trophy wife.  Before I arrived, Mila sent me photos of Larisa and I was very interested.  I let Mila know I wanted to meet Larisa soon after I arrived.  I arrived Monday night and met Larisa on Wednesday and I thought the meeting went well.  I wanted to see her again but the weekend was a holiday weekend and she had plans.  We did meet the following week but again, she already had weekend plans.  Maybe she wasn't interested in seeing me again, but then why would she meet a second time?  She certainly appreciated me getting her off Natasha Club.  I never got feedback from Mila.  Other than "N", there was no feedback about any woman because there was no need for a second meeting.  

So, why is it that "N" at 34 showed me the kind of interest that tells a man she has serious feelings?  Why would she call Mila 3 times one day crying because she thought I had ended things with her....a too long and personal story.  Basically, my trip came down to "N" and no one else.  Even when she returned home 5 days before I left, we were in constant contact by phone.  I agree, we should have never met.  She's at least 10 years too young for me.  Had I known she was from another city 5 hours away by train, I would have declined to meet her.  Guess what I'm driving at is all the comments and suggestions are valid and logically correct.  But if I had followed them to the letter on this and previous trips, I would have never met the women who I actually had the best connection with.  I don't know if things will continue with "N", but I'm willing to see where things can go.

When it comes to age and age differences, there are no rules etched in stone.  Giving people the opportunity to meet and then letting them decide for themselves if they want to continue is more important.  I'm not going to post my life history on RWD but I have never had a problem having relationships with women substantially younger than me...and I never kidnapped anyone or held them against their will.  From the very beginning a gave Mila about 6 different criteria that would eliminate my interest in meeting a woman.  If she had school-aged children, if she wanted to have a common child, if she was a smoker and drinker (to excess), if she was fat, that she was a reasonable age, and I preferred she was 165+cm...or so.  NOTHING MORE!!!  This was told to Mila long before I arrived and again after I arrived.  

I can't explain this any clearer.  So, debate all you want and I look forward to Az1's report.  But I am burned out rehashing all this with people who don't know me...and I don't know, who were not part of Mila's and my business dealings, and certainly did not see any of the women Mila arranged for me to meet.  Two very nice personal friends of Mila's, "N", who had responded to another RWD's ad, and the women from the ad.  Mila is a good person and I wish her well with her future clients.  CC                                

[Ravens9273]

I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions, especially from eCocks and JollyRats, where I felt I was being personally attacked and psychoanalyzed by a few other's like Ravens9273.  It is impossible for me to explain minute by minute, hour by hour, or even day by day everything that transpired between Mila and me.  Before I arrived and before the ad was placed, I sent Mila detailed information about myself, my appearance, including photos, my work, my family, and most anything a woman may want to know before meeting me.  Mila was free to answer any pre-meeting questions a woman might have, including my age.  I don't think it's unreasonable for me to know a woman's age, if she has school-aged children or wants children in the future, if she's a smoker, how tall she is and if her weight is unproportionally too much, as in 165cm and 75kg.  

My information was easily available to any woman who answered the ad.  I think I have every right if Mila tells me that a woman is 30 with a 7 y.o. to decline to meet her as I would for any of the afore mentioned issues.  Just as a woman can decline to meet me.  From the very beginning I told Mila I was primarily interested in a woman in her mid 40's....simply because at that age, usually the issues of depenedent children, and I mean school aged children, or wanting to have a child are not an issue.  I realize that women in their 30's and 40's often still live with parents, sometimes even when they are married.  Knowing where to draw the line about age is sometimes very difficult.  I 100% agree that generally a woman in her mid 40's and older is logically a better and more realistic age for a man in his mid 60's.  

The previous time I used an ad campaign it was recommended by the person I was working with that I don't list my age.  Simply list the age range I was looking for.  The information in the ad was mostly about me....information that would draw a woman's attention.  The ad was written by the person I was working with but approved by me.  There were over 40 responses and I met only a portion of the women.  Of the women I met, none had school aged children, most were 40 and over, not interested in having a common child, none were smokers, and none were 20-50 pounds over weight.  I met them sight unseen and didn't have a problem with that.  Some women I decided to meet just that one time and some women decided to meet me just that one time.  

But I had a great connection with two of the women that eventually became just the one woman.  She was 40, I visited her 4 times and is the one I mentioned earlier.  If my ad had said 63, would she had met me?  I doubt it.  Apparantly she didn't ask my age when she responded to the ad, but I told her on our first meeting and if it was a problem for her, that's OK.  It wasn't a problem.  I explained my previous experiences to Mila in detail before I arrived and tried to discuss the content of the ad.  All I ever got from Mila was don't worry.  "Don't worry about the ad, I know what to say"  "Don't worry about the apartment, I will find a good one at a good price."  Don't worry about the internet, you will have it".  "Don't worry about anything, I will take care of everything".  That was my fault for not insisting on a more detailed response.  

Like I wrote earlier, I can not post every conversation and every word that was exchanged between Mila and me.  But I know without a doubt that it was clear to Mila what I was looking for in a woman and it was not a DDG trophy wife.  Before I arrived, Mila sent me photos of Larisa and I was very interested.  I let Mila know I wanted to meet Larisa soon after I arrived.  I arrived Monday night and met Larisa on Wednesday and I thought the meeting went well.  I wanted to see her again but the weekend was a holiday weekend and she had plans.  We did meet the following week but again, she already had weekend plans.  Maybe she wasn't interested in seeing me again, but then why would she meet a second time?  She certainly appreciated me getting her off Natasha Club.  I never got feedback from Mila.  Other than "N", there was no feedback about any woman because there was no need for a second meeting.  

So, why is it that "N" at 34 showed me the kind of interest that tells a man she has serious feelings?  Why would she call Mila 3 times one day crying because she thought I had ended things with her....a too long and personal story.  Basically, my trip came down to "N" and no one else.  Even when she returned home 5 days before I left, we were in constant contact by phone.  I agree, we should have never met.  She's at least 10 years too young for me.  Had I known she was from another city 5 hours away by train, I would have declined to meet her.  Guess what I'm driving at is all the comments and suggestions are valid and logically correct.  But if I had followed them to the letter on this and previous trips, I would have never met the women who I actually had the best connection with.  I don't know if things will continue with "N", but I'm willing to see where things can go.

When it comes to age and age differences, there are no rules etched in stone.  Giving people the opportunity to meet and then letting them decide for themselves if they want to continue is more important.  I'm not going to post my life history on RWD but I have never had a problem having relationships with women substantially younger than me...and I never kidnapped anyone or held them against their will.  From the very beginning a gave Mila about 6 different criteria that would eliminate my interest in meeting a woman.  If she had school-aged children, if she wanted to have a common child, if she was a smoker and drinker (to excess), if she was fat, that she was a reasonable age, and I preferred she was 165+cm...or so.  NOTHING MORE!!!  This was told to Mila long before I arrived and again after I arrived.  

I can't explain this any clearer.  So, debate all you want and I look forward to Az1's report.  But I am burned out rehashing all this with people who don't know me...and I don't know, who were not part of Mila's and my business dealings, and certainly did not see any of the women Mila arranged for me to meet.  Two very nice personal friends of Mila's, "N", who had responded to another RWD's ad, and the women from the ad.  Mila is a good person and I wish her well with her future clients.  CC                                

CC,

I did not attack you. I was defending Mila. There is a difference.

You write she wrote your ad and you knew nothing.
You also wrote that before ad was placed you gave her your age requirements. By your words Mila said they should be changed to lower age to 38.
You knew what was going in the ad. Nor did you put your foot down and say "no" to her suggestion of lowering age to 38.
I am not buying the later story of not knowing anything that was in your ad.

You are 64. A hair dye job does not make you look 50. Now I am not picking on you for dying your hair and removing the gray. It is your choice. But when you take the hair dye and the fact you want to hide your real age from the ladies it does not take a Rocket Scientist to see you were trying to meet ladies far out of your league and much much younger.
You put effort into trying to present yourself as younger.

Now I am not picking on you for wanting to find a much younger Women. To each his own. It is your life. Your choice. If a much younger lady wants to be with you then that his her choice. It is not for anyone else to say who the two of you should date.

The problem here is you do not want to accept the fact your expectations were high, and blame Mila for your failure.
You are upset because you did not have these much younger beautiful Women lined up to meet you. Because of this you want to hurt Mila's reputation.

Your last post you wrote the following.
Mila was free to answer any pre-meeting questions a woman might have, including my age.

In your previous posts you went into detail how you were upset because she told one lady your age. You even were conducting a little investigation by saying the lady told you Mila told her, then saying you asked Mila and she said "NO".

When a person has to change their story it is a very good indication they were not telling the truth to begin with.
Do not say now Mila was allowed to tell ladies your age when previously you made it very clear you were unhappy with her for doing so.

Do not say you knew nothing about the contents of your ad when you also mentioned the changes before it was placed.

Deep down CC you are not happy being 64. It is obvious because you are trying so hard to hide it. You want to be young, You want to meet a young Women.
Nothing wrong with it at all.
You have high expectations. It is not saying you cannot make it work. I am sure there are younger Women out there who would want to be with you. But you have to know your expectations will make your journey alot harder then most. You will experience alot more failure then most. It does not mean you will not eventually succeed. But you also have to realize your failures are your fault. Your failures for a younger beautiful Women will be because you are 64.
Do not put the blame on anyone else.

I am not attacking you nor picking on you. What I will attack is your character in the fact you will not accept failure as your own but will hurt Mila's reputation (not to mention you still stiffed her on the bill) because you cannot accept your own flaws in your plan.
I know even more now Mila did nothing wrong because you changed your story.
Live you life the way you wish. No one will judge. But to hurt Mila for your own faults you should be ashamed of yourself.

[facetrock]

CC, you should understand people will judge you by what you write. You spent about five paragraphs whining about dishes and the internet. After six trips to the FSU I have yet to have a complete set of anything in a rented FSU flat. I just go and buy a cheap set of pans for about 25 dollars and either give them away when I am done or leave them there. It doesnt bother me to spend big like this once in awhile.  It sounds like you paid about 50 dollars to much for a months worth of internet and you were without it for almost a day. God forbid how this could happen in Ukraine!!!!!! Hope you dont have to refiance or sell your house to pay the bill.

  As far as I can tell you paid Mila a whopping bank breaking 401K killing 270 dollars for a months worth of translation and quasi match making with an ad included in the price telling the woman your real age in the local paper.

  That sir is where I draw the line. I dont mind spending big but that is international highway robbery at its worst. For a woman  interpreter to babysit, translate, make sure you had some decent pots and pans that she brought over for you, line up dates with women from the ad and some of her friends, meet and take you back to the bus station, my God what is the world coming to. Is there no end to rising prices and inflation? Is there no limit to human greed?

  For those astronomical prices you should be gauranteed a woman fit for a sheik and a virgin no less. You CC were very right in withholding the rest of the money from the greedy Mila. Thank God you didnt give her a tip.

  I would bet she was making at least 7 or 8 dollars per hour from you. Who the hell does that woman think she is charging sky high prices like that.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Doesnt she know she is nothing but a poor Ukrainian woman who should be happy to work for whatever us WM think is appropriate.
I am happy you didnt pay her the full amount. Serves her right and what can she do about it anyway, shes in Ukraine and your safe back home in the good old Usa.

Forget her, she will survive and I am sure she would have just wasted the money anyway on food for her family and maybe clothes or something stupid like that.

Put yourself in her shoes cheapskate and see how it would feel.

[CCowboy]

CC,

I did not attack you. I was defending Mila. There is a difference.

You write she wrote your ad and you knew nothing.
You also wrote that before ad was placed you gave her your age requirements. By your words Mila said they should be changed to lower age to 38.
You knew what was going in the ad. Nor did you put your foot down and say "no" to her suggestion of lowering age to 38.
I am not buying the later story of not knowing anything that was in your ad.

****I knew before the ad was placed that Mila put 38-48.  I told Mila I had been searching on sites for 40-50.  A couple of years was no big deal.  I didn't know she listed my age in the ad until we had our "talk" on my 17th day.

You are 64. A hair dye job does not make you look 50. Now I am not picking on you for dying your hair and removing the gray. It is your choice. But when you take the hair dye and the fact you want to hide your real age from the ladies it does not take a Rocket Scientist to see you were trying to meet ladies far out of your league and much much younger.
You put effort into trying to present yourself as younger.

****Yes, I dye my hair...been doing it for years.  Pre-mature grey runs in my family.  Is that a crime?  Do I need to be The Governator, a celebrity, a sports star, or a 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80 year old woman to justify dying my hair.  Are you living in the dark ages?  I sure see lots of hair color ads for men.  I also excerise on a regular basis, eat mostly healthy food, don't smoke or use drugs, rarely drink, take my vitamins and supplements.  They all have an effect on my health and being much more active than most people my age.  So, I should just stop doing those things because they make me feel and look younger and allow me a more active life than most men my age?  

Now I am not picking on you for wanting to find a much younger Women. To each his own. It is your life. Your choice. If a much younger lady wants to be with you then that his her choice. It is not for anyone else to say who the two of you should date.

The problem here is you do not want to accept the fact your expectations were high, and blame Mila for your failure.
You are upset because you did not have these much younger beautiful Women lined up to meet you. Because of this you want to hurt Mila's reputation.

****Yes, I have high expectations.  What man on RWD doesn't?  Seems to me that nearly all, if not all men are looking for a woman who is younger, prettier, sexier, and with inner qualities that they aren't able to find in most U.S. women.  I met a Ukraine woman who is 33, married to a 69 year old American ex-pat and they've been together for 9 years.  That's not what I'm looking for and as stated, I prefer a woman in her mid-40's but age is secondary to other more important factors.  

Your last post you wrote the following.
Mila was free to answer any pre-meeting questions a woman might have, including my age.

In your previous posts you went into detail how you were upset because she told one lady your age. You even were conducting a little investigation by saying the lady told you Mila told her, then saying you asked Mila and she said "NO".

****Get your facts straight.  The reference was to "N" and I was curious why a 34 y.o. woman would travel 5 hours by train to meet a man with the intentions to return home the following day.  She was supposed to return with Mila and her husband when they went to Zaporozhye.  I asked "N" if she knew my age before making the trip and how old she thought I was.  She replied, no she didn't know my age and thought I was about 50.  I told her I was 64 and if she knew my age, would she still have met me.  She said no.  I mentioned it to Mila and she said she told "N" my age.  I wasn't upset but I did find it strange "N" would tell me she didn't know my age and Mila said she did.  To me it makes more sense that had "N" known my real age, she wouldn't have traveled so far to meet a man 30 years her senior, sight unseen.  She's a pretty goodlooking and sexy woman.  And I repeat for your short memory, my meeting with "N" was arranged by Mila and she did not respond to my ad.

When a person has to change their story it is a very good indication they were not telling the truth to begin with.
Do not say now Mila was allowed to tell ladies your age when previously you made it very clear you were unhappy with her for doing so.

****So now you're calling me a liar.  I'm not sure what I can call you on RWD so I'll just keep it to myself.  I was unhappy Mila put my age in the ad....period.  Once a woman calls and Mila finds out more about the woman and tells the woman more about me, then a decision is made if we should meet.  That was the plan that I discussed with Mila before ever coming to Kharkov.  That was why I sent Mila my information and photos and Mila was never told not to tell a woman my age before meeting.  That is what Mila DID NOT do when the woman called.  All Mila did was set up a meeting.  That is why Mila had me meeting a 30 y.o. woman with a 7 year old.  Mila did what she wanted to do and not what we had discussed.

Do not say you knew nothing about the contents of your ad when you also mentioned the changes before it was placed.

****AGAIN!!!  I knew only that the ages listed were 38-48.  I knew nothing more that the ad said.....for the upteenth time, until the 17th day of my trip.

Deep down CC you are not happy being 64. It is obvious because you are trying so hard to hide it. You want to be young, You want to meet a young Women.
Nothing wrong with it at all.
You have high expectations. It is not saying you cannot make it work. I am sure there are younger Women out there who would want to be with you. But you have to know your expectations will make your journey alot harder then most. You will experience alot more failure then most. It does not mean you will not eventually succeed. But you also have to realize your failures are your fault. Your failures for a younger beautiful Women will be because you are 64.
Do not put the blame on anyone else.

****Expectations...answered before.  Not happy being 64, yeah I'd rather be 24.  But when I'm 94, I'll wish I was 64.  I'm not looking for a woman who is just willing to marry me.  If that's all I was looking for, I could have been married several times to women from the middle 30's to the early 40's and older.  I am not looking for a woman of 34, now 35 like "N", but I like her and not opposed to continuing the relationship.  "N" has already said those 3 special words to me several times and there were times when I felt the same towards her.  But I'd feel a lot more comfortable if she was 8-10 years older.  I'm looking for a marriage that will last and not just for a few years, though, as JollyRats put it, there are no guarantees.

I am not attacking you nor picking on you. What I will attack is your character in the fact you will not accept failure as your own but will hurt Mila's reputation (not to mention you still stiffed her on the bill) because you cannot accept your own flaws in your plan.
I know even more now Mila did nothing wrong because you changed your story.
Live you life the way you wish. No one will judge. But to hurt Mila for your own faults you should be ashamed of yourself.

****Who are you?  Mila's guardian angel?  You've done nothing but attack me.  Now you're a psychologist?  There were two main flaws in my plan.  First, based on postings about Mila on RWD and particularly the recommendation from a personal friend, I trusted Mila with the content of the ad instead doing it myself.  If I placed the ad and it flopped, it would be my fault.  Second, Mila did exactly what I told her not to do and that was arranging meetings without asking important questions.  Again, I trusted Mila based on previous conversations.  But untimately, I should have insisted that Mila tell me if the woman I was going to meet at least met my criteria.  Maybe if I had told Mila that if a woman has a school-aged child, wanted a child, was a smoker or more than a casual drinker, or was fat and I wouldn't pay her, maybe she would have been more conscientious.

****As far as payment, this is exactly how things happened.  Mila met me at the apartment at 10PM.  We were there for at least 35-45 minutes.  She said nothing about any payment.  We go the the bus station and then about 10 minutes before I am ready to get on the bus, she says I owe her $300 in addition to the $170 I'd already given her.  Yes, shoot me, I know I wrote 19 minutes...it was a typo.  We got into a discussion about the ad and the women I met from the ad, women who I had no business meeting had Mila screened the woman as we had agreed on.  There was no itemized accounting, simply Mila saying I owed her $300.  I told Mila I felt very strongly that the women I met from the ad I would have never met, had she been doing what we agreed on.  Mila said that if I don't feel I should pay her, I don't have to.  I didn't feel Mila should be compensated for the translation services for those woman.  

But I did feel I should pay her for the other women.  Mila translated for "N" twice, Larisa twice, and 3 women once.  That was it for the entire 4 weeks.  No meeting was longer than 2 hours and usually 1 1/2 hours or less.  So, besides the $120 she received for the ad, which most of it went into her pocket, I paid an additional $150 for approximately 11-14 hours of translating.  So, I'm a cad.  I reduced her translating fee by what I felt was appropriate, since Mila didn't discuss the bill with me in the apartment or even had an itemized bill to give me.  Mila gave me an out by telling me I didn't have to pay her if I felt I shouldn't.  It wasn't about the money.  I had expected to spend a lot more.  But I felt Mila didn't deserve compensation which included her translation services from the women from the ad.  By presenting me with a bill in a dark parking lot just before I'm about to leave rather than at the apartment questions Mila's professionalism.  Maybe she was afraid if she presented me with the bill in the apartment, I would question it.  Maybe if she presented me with the bill just before I got on the bus, I would pay it without question.  I don't know.  I have a lot of unanswered questions regarding Mila and some choices she made.  

****I know that nothing I say is going to satisfy you and several others.  But I would very much like to read Az1's TR report and compare.  From the few comments he made, I see a similar pattern.  Personally, I don't believe Mila is the kind of person who would set up meetings just to earn translation fees.  But I knew little about Mila before I arrived in Kharkov, just what I had read on RWD and my friend's personal recommendation.  I think most of Mila's clients stay for much shorter times, are much younger and therefore seek younger woman, get bigger responses to their ads, if they place one, and are therefore a lot easier for Mila to deal with.  She also probably has a long list of women who responded to previous ads who she can introduce to men without placing an ad.  Lots of questions that I can only speculate about.  I still stand by my original feeling regarding Mila of inexperience and not dishonesty.  CC                    

[Shadow]

In your previous more succesful ad campaign you got a result of 40 women wanting to meet you, and zero who connected long enough for a second trip.

This time you got 15 women wanting to meet you and one (though from outside the ad) interested enough to want to meet you again. Which do you think is better ?

If only one person reacts to an ad, and you marry that person, the ad is succesful. If 100 women react and none is interested in you after meeting, the ad is a failure.

$10 an hour is enough for an interpreter ? Use Stirlitz next time 

[CCowboy]

Hi Shadow,

As posted earlier I had 40+ responses from the earlier ad campaign but met maybe 8 women.  With 2 of the women, there was a mutual interest for a serious relationship.  Eventually it came down to one who I visited 3 more times.  I was ready to commit and go for the K-1.  Her personal family situation prevented her from saying yes.  She had a dying father who passed away 8 months later.  Now she has a widowed mother and her university aged daughter to care for.  She's a terrific woman and I wished things had turned out differently for us.  But nearly a year and a half has passed and though we still keep in contact, it's as friends and without any plans for the future.

I know enough Russian...vocabulary... to survive on my travels and for first time meetings.  I have a very good dictionary program on my laptop and online translations are OK for basic communication...and one reason why I wanted internet in my apartment.  But for serious communication, a professional translator is best.  I agree, it only takes meeting the right woman to make an ad campaign successful.  I liked Larisa and would have liked to see more of her.  But the holidays and her work schedule didn't allow it.  Maybe the interest wasn't mutual.  With "N", I really like her and despite the age difference, I'm interested to continue.  When I left, I know "N" felt the same.  But so far I haven't heard from her.  She has my e-mail address and was supposed to write me.  Nothing yet.

However, she does keep in contact with Mila so who knows what has been said.  I would hope that Mila would be professional enough to keep our problems separate from what had been a very good beginning between "N" and me.  I wasn't ready for a K-1 but I told "N" I was willing to make another trip to Ukraine in a few months for her and only her.  She seemed very excited and pleased.  "What's the saying..."Hell hath no fury...."  But I've had my "well" poisoned before by someone who had no business sticking her nose into mine.  Absolutely killed a relationship after we had already filled out a K-1.  In this case it was a woman who didn't approve of the relationship and let her feelings be known, obsessively, despite the efforts of a friend to tell her to stay out of it.  Fortunately for my friend, he saw this side of her before he got too involved and ended his relationship with her.

I think everything that needs to be said about my trip has been said.  I know I have nothing more I want to add and I'm tired of this courtroom psycho-analysis atmosphere.  CC       

[GoodOlBoy]

"What's the saying..."Hell hath no fury...."  But I've had my "well" poisoned before by someone who had no business sticking her nose into mine. 

I personally don't believe in translators or agencies (hand holders) when looking for a wife in the FSU.

I also had a "bad" experience 6 years ago with a translator that I used in Russia.

For some reason she told a woman that I was interested in something that was totally untrue and something I never said!!

I found this out later when I finally returned home to the GoodOl'USA and was able to reestablish contact with this girl and use an online translator to clear up the "misunderstanding" between us.

Sadly, it was to late to salvage the relationship (in my opinion).

Once a RW says it is over......IT IS OVER!

I never trusted a "hired" translator again and changed my search parameters to only ladies who at least have a basic grasp of the English language.

I found this translator through the hotel (Rossiya) that I was staying in.

I still don't know why she sabotaged our relationship.

Fortunately, I met my beautiful wife after this catastrophe. My wife spoke English and had 2 degrees.

Somethings are meant to be.

FWIW....Marina has been able to "adapt" well to the GoodOl'USA and has not been frustrated by a lack of understanding her surroundings because of any language barriers.

As a matter of fact (IMO), she has flourished in her career and personal life.


GOB

[CCowboy]

I think things have become too fine tuned with agencies, translators, and we're made to believe that without them, success is unlikely.  My very first trip to the FSU was in 1994.  I knew Yes and No in Russian, learned the Russian alphabet OK, and had my old fashioned Russian/English dictionary.  I joked that I went over there with half a brain and little else.  I spent 6 weeks traveling through Russia and Ukraine.  All prior correspondence was by snail mail.  I met about 10 of the women I had corresponded with prior to my trip.  I met women from Uzhgorod, Ukraine to Penza, Russia.  The woman in Uzhgorod knocked me over and after a two week visit, I asked her to marry me.  She said yes, I did my own K-1 and within 5 months and I had approval and she was in the U.S. soon after.  But being a prince on a white horse finding my princess was a lot different than reality.  Between our naivity and simply not being prepared for the many ups and downs, the marriage eventually failed.  We probably weren't as well suited for each as we should have been for marriage.  Today, I would never do anything as crazy at that, though it was done without any agency or using a translator.  It's too bad because in many ways, it was my most exciting adventure...though there were a few problems I had to overcome.  Now with all the tools available, there is the expectation that everything will be fine tuned and run perfectly.  Also with the internet, there are so many more possibilities, there is the tendency to try to find your one and only soul mate.  Many of us try to ride that fine line between fantasy and reality.  I've had women as young as 23 telling me they wanted to marry me, though I never took her seriously.  I've also had women in their late 40's who we both knew we were not right for each other.  I've had every other possible situation in between.  At 35, "N" is not a child and seemed to be ready for us to have a future together.  I've met women in their mid 40's who didn't feel that way.  So, trying to draw the line age wise is very difficult.  If a woman has a school-aged child, wants to have a child, is a smoker, or just does not have the physical appearance that makes me feel ga-ga, those reasons are much more important for me to consider....as well as her inner qualities.  Logically, a women 45 and older makes sense, but that does not mean I can't have an even more fulfilling marriage with a younger woman.  What it really boils down to is the decision of the two people involved.  Chemistry is something that two people feel for each other and it is not dictated by age, though my 23 y.o. friend married to a man 40 years older is way outside common sense.  I recently watch a bio on Lee majors...and no, I am not comparing myself to him.  He's had 4 marriages, including Farrah Fawcett and a Playmate of the Year.  At 63 he married his 4th wife who was 28 at the time.  Now he's 70 and she's 35 and they seem to be still growing strong.  And yes, he dyes his hair...so does she. .  The point is that everyone has their choices to make in life and whether other's agree or they are the correct choices, they are still each individuals choices to make. CC             

[Sculpto]

CC..

A couple observations..

You have been going to the FSU since 1994 and still don't speak Russian? 

You had success, even if it ended in divorce, without any help.. so why would you even bother with ad campaigns and translators?  You seem well off.. why not just take another 6 week journey? 

Thats all.. best of luck.

[CCowboy]

No, I first went in 1994, but most of my trips have been during the past 3 years.  Many more trips than I thought and I'll admit, I should have made a better effort to learn Russian...at least enough to be more independent.  It's a very, very difficult language and pronunciation is a nightmare for me.  Making an extended independent visit has been a thought, but it'll be a year before I can consider that.  Thanks for the good luck wish.  CC

[JR]

is it just me or its wrong to continually say "use Mila" and "utilize Mila" instead of saying "utilize Mila's services" just sounds really wrong to me every time i stumble across that in your texts

It's English slang and to us it is perfectly normal with no negative connotations to it. But since you pointed it out yes, it is a bit on the wrong side.

[mies]

CC - maybe you just aren't too much into women, or not into Ukrainian women?
One is too short, another one is too plump, another one is not beautiful, another one looks ok but spends too much time in the gym trying to stay fit...

Next time try to hire psychic instead of translator. She'll do a better job guessing what you need and want.
I totally agree with you - it's impossible to survive with few bowls and plates in the kitchen. Where to put all the food in?

[Sculpto]

just eat Ukrainian burritos!  (shwarma)

What are those Georgian things called.. they are dough filled with savory or sweet.. I loved those.. want some right now!

CC.. if you try again.. and have not had the chance to really work on learning some Russian.. why not go over and enroll in a Russian language course.. forget about wife searching.. have a cultural experience and make some friends.  I bet you $1000 that once you make some local friends they will all be going out of their way to introduce you to every available woman they know.

that happened to me in Donetsk.. Nigerian guys Ukrainian GFs got word that I was single.  I wasn't even there specifically looking for a girl.. as soon as they found out I didn't have a girlfriend.. wow.. they went into action.. lots of introductions supervised by a VERY dominant Ukrainian woman who had no motivations except to find a match for her single GFs and the friend of her boyfriend..  No matches but it was a lot of fun for everyone and a lot of nice dinner parties.  But, the underlying motivation is it is not right for a man to not have a woman so the effort went into finding me one.  Pity Americans don't think that way.

[gemini]

Even with 45 yo's, CCowboy is looking at almost 20 years of age difference.




GOB

I will tell you about my personal experience.
When we started relationship with my husband, our agent introduced us to an AM who was looking for a RW for ages. He was 60+ yo and was dating 25+ yo RW. He seemed very weird, may be even crazy. He had a wig.  We though he would never find what he was looking for. We were wrong.  Our agent told us couple years later, that he found a woman that was about 20 years younger. She looks odd and crazy too and they seems happy together.   
I don't know if they are still happy. I hope they are.

The second couple was our friends. He was 40, she was 25. She is an artist. They were fighting for the first 3 months and she even called the police, because he was very jealous and blamed her meeting other young guys through internet. By the time we met them he calmed down and they seemed happy, always hugging each other on public. He loved her but he never looked like a happy person. They moved to another state and I lost the connection with them.

The third woman I've never seen. She found me, called me and told me her story. She was in her early 30th, her husband was 20 years older. She liked him at the beginning but 2 years later she realized that age difference makes  their life very difficult. She wanted go out with the young people of her age, dance and her husband was just an older guy who wanted sit in a quiet room and watch TV.  She also realized she wanted a child but her husband had his own adult children and did not want any children anymore. She was talking about her desire to file for divorce.

 

[Gator]

Gemini,

Thanks for sharing.  Glad that you are staying around.

First - "She looks odd and crazy too and they seems happy together."   

Second - "He loved her but he never looked like a happy person."

Third -  "She wanted go out with the young people of her age, dance and her husband was just an older guy who wanted sit in a quiet room and watch TV.  She also realized she wanted a child but her husband had his own adult children and did not want any children anymore." 

Only the first couple sounds compatible and they have the largest age difference.  Your third story is told many times.  Why don't people realize their misaligned goals before  marriage?

I know two AM-RW married couples with around a 25-year age difference.  Both have a new baby.  They are very happy, for now. 

A couple can always build a strong relationship if both are happy in the beginning.  When starting out unhappy, or at least unfulfilled, a future divorce seems inevitable unless one person goes though a catharsis.

[Gator]

When we started relationship with my husband, our agent introduced us to an AM who was looking for a RW for ages. He was 60+ yo and was dating 25+ yo RW. He seemed very weird, may be even crazy. He had a wig.  We though he would never find what he was looking for. We were wrong.  Our agent told us couple years later, that he found a woman that was about 20 years younger. She looks odd and crazy too and they seems happy together.   
 

I forgot to ask.  Was this man's name Sculpto?  (That's an inside joke, no need to answer)