In Kharkov April 27 to May 24

[Taz]

GOB - like many of your post in this thread, your arguments are without merit. You use emotion rather than logic to try and twist the debate as you have no facts to base your argument upon. I have merely taken the rather lengthy time to frame the debate in the proper context. If you would carefully and unemotionally read my posts, you would see that I have never advocated anywhere in this thread advocated taking advantage on anyone less fortunate.

If this were a case held in a courtroom and CC's facts are accurate, the judge would find in his favor. If he did not receive the agreed upon services from Mila, then she needs to provide the services or accept a reduction in her fees. Apparently the reduction in fees as agreeable to her or she could have protested it at the time of payment. Since apparently she did not then that to me implies a tacit approval of CC's argument that he did not in fact receive the agreed upon services? Would you not agree or do I need to translate it into GOB speak?

Take the emotions out of it and it is pretty cut and dried ASSUMING the facts are accurate. One area where there is NO DISPUTE is Mila's attempt to blackmail/threaten a client. Take emotions out of this and you'll see this was a clearly wrong move on her part. With friends like your, Mila doesn't need enemies when holding a debate in the court of public opinion.

Convince people with the facts,  not emotion. Use the emotion to drive the facts home. Your argument loses its effectiveness when you have no facts to back up your emotions.

[GoodOlBoy]

I don't see Taz comments as advocating "take advantage of the Ukrainians"..

Sorry Daveman, But....You and I have to part company on this one.

Taz is EXACTLY advocating taking advantage of (exploiting) people in a poor economic climate.

With justifications such as; don't feel bad for Mila, $5. is GOOD money in the Ukraine. 

This is EXACTLY why I respect somebody like ECOCKS or KIEVSTAR.

They live(d) in the Ukraine and survive(d) there everyday.

Last minute bargaining and negotiating is a way of life....WHEN YOU ARE A LOCAL AND YOU LIVE THERE.

Also, I have never heard either one of these members (EC/KV) advocate the "screwing" of people who are a little down on their economic luck.

But when you come from the GoodOl'USA with your big fat wallet full of American dollars....stiff your translator/agency (and probably everybody else along the way)...come back to the GoodOl'USA....open a thread here on RWD....and start slandering, complaining and whining about a fork or bowl or plate or $5. for a room that the translator doesn't even own and has NO control over the price....well you have what we have here.

A couple of grown "cry babies".

Definitely not what my RW calls "real men" (by any stretch of the imagination).


GOB

[Daveman]

Okay, let me try a different approach here...

Please explain why CCowboy (or Az1)

-- should pay for meeting with ladies who have children (when NO children was a requirement)
-- should pay for the translation services during the meetings with any ladies who did not meet the initial criteria

Let's just start with these... again, I don't see it a refusal to pay the entire amount as "stiffing" anyone. I see it as paying for services actually rendered, and not paying for those services which were not.

[kievstar]

Regarding services to be performed I think there is a difference of opinion here and Mila was only going to tell what she communicated to Az1 and CC.  She was going to say fact by fact her story of events.   On RWD we tend to only see the man's side of the story. I think the imagination of people reading what Mila wrote is more severe than reality of her meaning.  I think some men on this board think she was going to discuss bad dating events.  

But she does not need to speak anymore as she has a large happy customer base that is growing.  

SOW - has anybody read Mila's website about service?  Statement of Work.  http://www.mila-interpreter.com/

Reason I bring up who has met Az1 and CC in person it helps make what they say be more likely true.  For example Gator and Sandro have highly regarded character on this board and both have met in person.  I will have an easier time believing them than CC or Az1.

The American arrogance is coming up in expecting USA type service.  Be careful on using western service and to include Europe.  Service in USA and Europe is different.  Ways of doing business is different.  There once was a sex tourist on this board who talked about doing business in Ukraine but would never meet me in person in Ukraine.  I chalked it off to him speaking BS.  

People need to understand Mila may make $10 an hour but she does not charge for travel time and the hours with email and skype for preparation.  She did not contact me about speaking for her either.  I have stated in the past on RWD that I take the side of the Ukraine women over foreign men who date out of their league.

[SMS60]

I read the very first post in this thread again.

It seems everything was just "peachy" the first day. Everything started to change as time went on but very few complaints at the start.

????

[facetrock]

   Both of these men agreed to meet women who didnt match their requirements. If they wouldnt have agreed they would not have met. They had a choice when they were there. I dont think Mila held a gun to their heads. What is really weird is they both end up in a relationship with a type of woman they said they didnt want. Then they come here to bitch about it. Strange.

   As far as this being "personal" I think its becomes personal when you slander another person with accusations you cant prove.
Taz, you even alluded to the fact that Mila might sabotage Goodbrews relationship if he didnt post anything nice about her.
IMO thats getting personal.
   Mila is not some robot interperter without emotions or feelings. Anyone I know whether it is in business or private life takes it personal when they are slandered.
  

[GoodOlBoy]

Let's just start with these... again, I don't see it a refusal to pay the entire amount as "stiffing" anyone. I see it as paying for services actually rendered, and not paying for those services which were not.

Pay the entire amount you say?

Here is the second one, guys. Make your own minds up
bye‏
From:    Mila (L.Mila@meta.ua)
Sent:    22 March 2009 19:59:52
To:    ASIF BHANA (asifbhana@hotmail.com)

Hi! I was glad to meet you and since this time, you and Anya are not exist for me any more. Yes, i will return all money back. Bye and good luck!!!

Mila

Daveman, I am not even sure that the other little weasel paid Mila ANYTHING because he has gone and pulled a disappearing act, probably never to return.

It appears from the e-mail that Hadji posted, Mila refunded ALL of his money.

All in all, I would say that Mila got "screwed over" pretty good by these 2 characters.  

But then again somebody like Taz would say; "Mila should be grateful for the few crumbs she did get". 


GOB

 Provocative and disparaging name-calling.

[Sculpto]

Dave I used to put in my profiles "No women with children".

oddly I would get MORE women with children responding.  I asked customer service why... on different sites.. the answer was similiar.. basically the women with children were out to prove they were good potential candidates.

I believe in one of CCs posts he mentioned that one of the ladies with kids DID NOT inform Mila.  I might be remembering incorrectly.. but i have that impression in my head.

Also.. is it possible that Mila was not getting many responses to his ad so she decided to go forward even though such ladies didn't exactly fit his parameters?  It just seems there is more to the story than we are hearing from anyone involved in that respect.

As far as not paying.. I simply don't agree.  If you go to eat someplace and the food and service aren't good.. you still have to pay.  If you buy a car and the car breaks down.. you still have to pay.  Shoot, if you bought a house and now you are upside down.. you still have to pay.  If you hire a lawyer but lose your case.. you still have to pay.  

To justify not paying because someone is from a poor country and her rate is good money compared to what others make.. well that is just wrong.  its none of "your" business how much she makes.  Perhaps she chose this field because there is the chance to make a better living than being a check out clerk?  

Now if I was in Milas shoes.. I would demand all payment up front.  Thats what I had to do on the one occasion I used a terp.. I didn't like it at the time but afterwards realized it was probably because someone stiffed him.  

All that said.. the other hand is clear.. if Mila or any other terp/guide wants to provide and charge for a premium service they have to provide premium service.  There IS a lack of understanding of what premium service is.  I am still working with a client here in SF that hired a GC who is from Odessa.  This GC listens to everything the client requests and then does whatever the hell they want.  the client is totally frustrated because the 3 million dollar house they are building is full of flaws and things not built according to the plans.  and worse yet.. each time the GC makes a mistake and the client calls them on it.. "change order" and they end up paying extra.  it is NOT how it is supposed to be and that is why they hired me.. to oversee the work the GC is doing and make sure they stay on plan and don't cut corners.  So, what I have seen is there is something in the business mentality that says the "provider" knows what is best and the client just needs to pay the bills and keep their mouths shut.  

Anyway.. I am seeing fault on both ends.. CC and Asif should have done more due diligence.. Mila should have paid closer attention and addressed the problems in advance and avoided them, or, once it was clear there were issues, regardless of her opinions of the clients, jumped through hoops to remedy the problems.  

I would also say to CC.. I get the feeling you are a high end guy.. its just an impression.. but, if that is the case.. and you had high end expectations.. probably you did not spend enough money on the terp/guide.  I think you could have found someone higher up on the food chain to give you a more personalized service.. but of course it would have cost a lot more.  Just an impression.. not sure if its true or not.

on the same thought line.. to Mila.. if you want to provide a high end personalized service and you are finding you have more clients than you can handle.. either hire some help or raise your prices or turn down some clients.

[GoodOlBoy]

Now if I was in Milas shoes.. I would demand all payment up front.  Thats what I had to do on the one occasion I used a terp.. I didn't like it at the time but afterwards realized it was probably because someone stiffed him. 

Exactamundo Sculpto.

Just like we do here in the GoodOl'USA.

The money/credit card is put on the table BEFORE the work begins (because of what we have seen posted here).


GOB

[Mir]

I think asking a man to pay some money a few minutes before parting is a fashion among women from Kharkov.
Once many years ago I was in Kiev. This laday from Kharkov came to visit me. She phoned me before setting off and asked me to speak to the translator. The total conversation I had with the translator was 5-10 minutes as she told me the train time for the lady and asked me to arrange a room in the hotel for her.
Next day the lady was going back to Kharkov. She called a taxi and a couple of minutes before the taxi arrived she asked me to give her $50 to pay the translator.
Well I did pay her but we never met againe.

[Sculpto]

I think you are supposed to pay without them asking.. its embarrassing to ask for payment and so people put it off until its almost too late.. again just an impression.. maybe Kiev can give some insight on that one.

[facetrock]

Sculpto your on to something there. I have noticed the embarrasment in a womans eyes when they have to ask for money. Real men  dont have to be asked to pay, they know the rules in their culture. I wonder if CCowboy would have paid Mila anything if she wouldnt have asked him? I really doubt it.

[Sculpto]

I recently did a bathroom for a woman from Ekaterinaburg.  She was really nice.. but, the negotiation period was so completely frustrating I almost dropped her.  she worked me into circles I didnt even know existed.  But the thing that was really weird.. at the end.. she ended up going for the more expensive option. 

[Faux Pas]

Character says a lot of about someone.  People are different in person than on the internet. Anyone can be a keyboard romeo or arm chair quarterback. 

CC has been going to Russia since 1994 so I imagine someone on RWD must have met him in person.  Az1 says he has a friend who referred Mila to.  I would like to see people who met CC and Az1 speak about their character. 

I know my character is crap on this board but I do not care.

Sure it does when you know a person personally. However, here on the forum we are not afforded that luxury and here everyone has a character too. It may or may not be they're character in RL but, it is what it is. Few of us know or have met each other in real time and must rely on their "forum character" to form opinions which we can only base on the information provided. With what I know, there is no way to ascertain who's right, who's wrong or indifferent. I doubt anyone else can either.

I have seen CCowboy on this forum as long as I have been here (2 years) and he has always seemed honest, forthright and credible.

I first saw Mila well after I had been a member. I believe I remember her in the introduction thread. Several members stated they used her with good results. Seems she is well on her way to a good reputation (even after this)

Az1 is a new member and his description of events seem plausible.

I say we believe them all but, let them all state their side of events. I am a businessman myself and if I know one thing is true it is the 3 sides to every story, mine, theirs and the truth.

[kievstar]

People act different on the internet than in person.  Last summer there were two guys I met personally in Kiev that got blasted by almost everybody on this board with their trip reports.  How both these guys wrote was no where near how they behaved in real life.  I did not plan on meeting these guys either - just happened to bump into them by chance in airport and city center. 

Az1 one visit ok - CC many - seems strange to me nobody knows him. 

Remember there was a guy from Georgia who people respect on RWD who met Ambach in Kiev and said positive things about Ambach. 

[Admin]

I say we believe them all but, let them all state their side of events. I am a businessman myself and if I know one thing is true it is the 3 sides to every story, mine, theirs and the truth.

I like this approach (copied above) the best.

It appears from the e-mail that Hadji posted, Mila refunded ALL of his money.

GOB - who, exactly, is "Hadji" ?

- Dan

[LiveFromUkraine]

I like this approach (copied above) the best.

GOB - who, exactly, is "Hadji" ?

- Dan

Dan, I can't believe you are letting all this crap in a TR report. 

"Hadji" is a derogatory word for the OP since he is Indian.  It is good to see that you allow racists on your forums.  GOB should have been banned a long time ago.  The only thing I see him posting is slander towards other members.


Thomas

[GoodOlBoy]

Dan, I can't believe you are letting all this crap in a TR report. 

"Hadji" is a derogatory word for the OP since he is Indian.  It is good to see that you allow racists on your forums.  GOB should have been banned a long time ago.  The only thing I see him posting is slander towards other members.
Thomas

Wrong again Thomas.

It is a cartoon character (Johnny Quest).

Stop trying to stir up a bunch of hate and discontent.


GOB

[LiveFromUkraine]

Stop trying to stir up a bunch of hate and miscontent.
GOB

LOL, Sorry, GOB I know that is your job.  

I believe Hadji was the Indian in that cartoon, correct? 

[GoodOlBoy]

LOL, Sorry, GOB I know that is your job.
I believe Hadji was the Indian in that cartoon, correct? 

Yes he was.

And in my opinion Hadji was the "coolest" character of them all (Johnny, Benton, Roger "Race" and Bandit) .


GOB

[Mir]

Muslims preform a special type of pilgramage by visiting Mecca on a certain date each year.
This is called Haj and everyone who does it is called a Hadji.

[Faux Pas]

People act different on the internet than in person.  Last summer there were two guys I met personally in Kiev that got blasted by almost everybody on this board with their trip reports.  How both these guys wrote was no where near how they behaved in real life.  I did not plan on meeting these guys either - just happened to bump into them by chance in airport and city center. 

Az1 one visit ok - CC many - seems strange to me nobody knows him. 

Remember there was a guy from Georgia who people respect on RWD who met Ambach in Kiev and said positive things about Ambach. 

They all 3 have enough credibility to be right. It is possible that they are all right. We'll probably never know at this point because of the attacks from parties that have no dog in this hunt. Kiev, I'd say some are just as they are on the net. Not everyone uses the net for alter egos. Some do and are completely different but that has nothing to do with the topic here. Character really does not pertain as it was business arrangements/agreements.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Yes he was.

And in my opinion Hadji was the "coolest" character of all of them (Johnny, Benton, Roger "Race" and Bandit) .


GOB

As I said, the comment was derogatory because he was Indian.  You should be banned.

[Mod3]

As I said, the comment was derogatory because he was Indian.  You should be banned.

As some members know, there is a report button for inappropriate posts.
That works a lot better than disucssing who should or should not be banned.
Thank you.

[LiveFromUkraine]

As some members know, there is a report button for inappropriate posts.
That works a lot better than disucssing who should or should not be banned.
Thank you.

Since you know about the abuse, why not do something instead of posting about report buttons?

It works a lot better than discussing the report button. 

Thank you.