I'm a Russian woman in America now

[Ooooops]

Easily.

Pro-life for babies has nothing to do with pro-death penalty for certain crimes nor being pro-gun for defending yourself or family.

Life is a life.   There is no way to dance around it.   Baby, criminal, nun, whatever.   

[Sculpto]

Even forgetting the humanitarian issues for a minute, research has shown that executing people 1) is not a deterrent 2) doesn't provide a victim's families with any peace of mind or closure 3) is far more expensive than keeping someone in prison for the duration of their natural lives.

As for guns being used for "self defence" I've yet to see any reliable evidence which shows that they are any good for this. Most people when attacked have no time to pull a gun and use it defensively and of those that do, they definitely risk escalating a dangerous encounter to a lethal one, lethal to them that is. Guns are one of those psychologically comforting ideas that give the impression that you are safer when in fact you are not.

As for pro life for "babies"; a bunch of cells without coherent thought is not a baby. The potential is there for sure, but where do you draw the line, at the sperm and egg which also have the potential for life? No contraception then?

              

[Sculpto]

sometimes I really wonder what the hell I am doing in this country.

[Ade]

SJ in what areas of crime is deterrence effective using the penalties of the criminal justice system? I've never seen any research that has said that deterrence is effective by jailing car thieves or burglars or thieves or gang bangers or rapists or white collar criminals.  Should we just not bother with a criminal justice system if deterrence is not a point of the sentencing for a crime.

As for executing a murder, it is definitely a deterrent for him, he will never murder again.  Would anything offer closure for the family/friends of a murder victim? 

I addressed the deterrent and closure issues as those are the most commonly used reasons for justifying capital punishment.

Murder is usually either committed in highly emotionally charged situations in which case there is little room for deterrents or by people who, by their very nature, are not deterred by consequences.

People who commit other types of premeditated crime can most definitely be dissuaded from committing them if the risk of capture and incarceration is high enough.

Yes, you are right that once a murderer is executed they will not be able to murder again but that would be the case if they were incarcerated for the rest of their natural life too; it would also mean that they would cost society less and there would be some possibility of release if found to be innocent later on.

The only true help for the family of victims is professional counselling; I've heard that sometimes facing the criminal and talking to them can also help with closure. A little difficult if they are dead.

[Ade]

JS I keep hearing that people who commit crimes can be dissuaded from committing them if the risk of capture and incarceration is high enough but I never see the stats to back it up or the stats given are from the 1960's or earlier, not very helpful in this day and age.

As for your statement that "premeditated crime can most definitely be dissuaded from committing them if the risk of capture and incarceration is high enough", this begs the question, what is "premeditated crime"? Is a junkie casing the cars and stores on the street for 2 hours looking to commit a burglary or theft to support his habit a "premeditated criminal" or is that designation only for criminals who are drug free and planning out robberies days or weeks in advance? Are serial rapists "premeditated criminals" if they plan their crimes? What happens if they just come across their perfect victim type in the perfect setting by accident and commit the  rape, do they get a lesser penalty because they didn't plan it out days ahead of schedule?  Same intent just a different time frame.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is exactly. There will always be certain people in specific situations which will not be deterred by anything but that does not invalidate incarceration as a deterrent for some or even most people.

[ECOCKS]

Life is a life.   There is no way to dance around it.   Baby, criminal, nun, whatever.   

Well Ooooops, I guess we will just have to face that we disagree.

[ECOCKS]

SJ in what areas of crime is deterrence effective using the penalties of the criminal justice system? I've never seen any research that has said that deterrence is effective by jailing car thieves or burglars or thieves or gang bangers or rapists or white collar criminals.  Should we just not bother with a criminal justice system if deterrence is not a point of the sentencing for a crime.

As for executing a murder, it is definitely a deterrent for him, he will never murder again.  Would anything offer closure for the family/friends of a murder victim? 

Your last point is, of course, as final and definite a deterrent as we can hope for. I always thought it strange that anyone would mention costs when considering justice. Ah well, everyone's got an opinion.

[Sculpto]

Incarceration is the goal for some criminals.  Once you are in jail you get three squares a day, free roof and no responsibility for anything.  Just have to make the right connections so Bubba doesn't have his way with you.  San Quentin on your resume is to gang bangers like Harvard Law is to lawyers.
 
If you really wish to stop crime you dont need an aggressive/oppressive criminal justice system.  You need a society that emphasizes education, prosperity, valuable work, self esteem, family unity and respect for others.  Societies that have such values at the highest priorities have lower rates of crime and vice versa. 

The death penalty is barbaric and far too often wrongful conviction has led to the loss of life of an innocent person or the destruction of an innocent persons life when they are retried and found innocent due to new DNA evidence or some other factor that is flawed in the criminal justice system.  Add racism into the mix and there is just no way this country should be in the business of executing anyone.  The death penalty and its flawed implementation are in fact at the highest position of the destruction of civil liberties I have spoken of before. 

[Sculpto]

Well said Poker. 

its a bit of a stupid saying.. but.. idle hands are the devils workshop..

people need education and an interesting job.. give people hope for a decent life and the motivation to commit crime disappears.

it takes a generation to implement a drastic change.

first convince everyone.
Then implement a plan.

But.. what t do in the meantime?  The culture of crime exists in some parts of the country.. enforcement doesn't stop it.. containment at least keeps it mostly in certain areas which makes lots of constituents happy but makes the problem worse for the decent people that have to live on the same block as the crack house.. hmm.. I know.. lets ask Ronnie.  (half joking)

[Ooooops]

Well Ooooops, I guess we will just have to face that we disagree.

As long as we don't claw each other faces we can face it...   

[Ronnie]

That's what I never get - how a person can be pro-life and pro-execution/pro-gun at the same time?... 

Innocent vs guilty.  Get that?

[ECOCKS]

Ooooops (did I get enough O's?), nothing wrong with disagreeing over philosophies, so no claws need come out. It's when you can't face reality or become insulting that most people will shut you off or escalate to replying in kind.

So, if we want to consider each others view, that is great. Just remember that when someone takes something on faith alone, there is little possibility of moving them off their position.

To that end, the way I see this is you cannot understand why I DO see a difference between a new human being who has done nothing except come into existence and a human being who committed a major crime as defined by society when you DON'T. Likewise, I CANNOT understand that you DO think these two are on an equal footing with regard to their right to continue existence.

Now, unless I misstated your position in the statements above, I am also going to assume you have considered a felon's actions and a newborn's lack of anything damaging to anyone or anything and reached that conclusion. It follows that I have also considered their actions, or lack thereof, and reached a conclusion that they are completely different situations.

That leaves us at an impasse. If you think that a convicted felon deserves to live as much as a freshly conceived human being, then I accept that you are sincere, but believe you are wrong. Likewise, you undoubtedly consider that I am wrong.

So, I am not going to accept your view and you say you aren't accepting mine. At least you read Heinlein so I can hope that you'll come to your senses someday.  

BTW, not that most people bother to ask, and for that matter most people who believe one way or the other don't distinguish either, but while I personally believe that abortion is murder, which makes my choice pro-life, I am pro-choice with regard to everyone else's decision in their own circumstances. I cringe at the thought that someone would get an abortion and kill another human being who has done nothing, but respect that each person should make the choice for themself, based upon their belief(s). If you do not believe it is murder, its regrettable (from my POV) but understandable.

Also, I am avoiding the whole nuns category you brought up since, to me, nuns and priests are no different than anyone else so you could have as easily said "babies, criminals and grocery clerks."

[Ronnie]

.... a bunch of cells without coherent thought is not a baby.

So..  What exactly where you thinking about on the drive home from the hospital?  Hmmmm?

[Ronnie]

Life is a life.   There is no way to dance around it.   Baby, criminal, nun, whatever.   

So, one side of the issue thinks that murderers should live, but the babies must die;

The other side says the opposite. 


Gee, it's such a hard one to call. 

[facetrock]

So what do you guys think of the GM bankruptcy.

[Ronnie]

I don't own a gun.  But far be it from me to second guess the framers of the constitution.  They were clearly wise and inspired. 

Gun ownership is right that every individual has.  It's not only about protection from criminals a deterrent to tyranny and invasion.

A knife is more deadly than a bullet.  But an armed woman can protect herself and her children against a man twice her size and strength.

I'm amazed at the twisted reasoning as to why any person should not be able to arm themselves.  It is a natural as well as constitution right.  Most creatures in nature have defense mechanisms.  Shall we declaw and defang them all?

[Ronnie]

So what do you guys think of the GM bankruptcy.

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[ECOCKS]

That's what I never get - how a person can be pro-life and pro-execution/pro-gun at the same time?...  

Oooops, sorry I skipped the pro-gun part of your response. Frankly, I see no connection whatsoever between the being pro-gun and pro-life.

Pro-gun is not directly related to being pro-death penalty except that if an individual believes in one of them, they usually, but not always, believe in the other as well.

Guns are part of my life yet, as the popular T-shirt says, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than any or all of them. None have ever injured another person in an assault, they don't drink, have never had or committed abortions and I have never caught any of them sneaking out to commit mayhem or havoc. For four and a half hours today, my son and I were preparing for a hunting trip and he was deciding which gun he wishes to carry on a regular basis after he receives his permit. No laws were broken. No injuries were recorded. So, it's difficult to see the problem.

Guns do prevent crime as well as remind the government that they serve at the sufferance of the citizens. People who doubt it can go look up the crime rate statistics from 1990 to Present and match up the number of states which changed their laws to allow easier access as well as the number of permits issued overall during that time period. In our top 10 cities for worst violent crime statistics, the majority of them have attempted to restrict weapons ownership of their citizens, thereby disarming their population and leaving them unable to defend themselves. Washington, DC discovered to their dismay that outlawing guns not only didn't lower their crime rate, but it also was held to be unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court in 2008. Look at the movie stars and other celebrities  who make millions on movies and books depicting violence and then notice that several of them then decry the possessions of firearms until someone else offers them a larger check. Consider the politicians who have armed themselves yet do not trust you to be armed in turn.

Connecting this back to the FSU, in Ukraine a "connection" advised me that if an expat wanted a "real" gun it could be arranged, price tag was $5,000 USD. Bader-Meinhoff, IRA (and their offshoots), Red Brigade factions, all seem to have their heavier weapons which are not manufactured in the US yet they are in countries where firearms ownership is suppressed and criminalized.

None of these facts give me reason to see any conflict with believing that abortion is murder or has anything to do with favoring the death penalty.

[facetrock]

Gun ownership, constitutional law, capital punishment, abortion? Somewhere about ten pages ago there was a thread about a RW who just moved to a town of three thousand from Moscow. She surely is climbing the walls with culture shock after reading this thread:)

Natasha, I grew up in a town of five hundred. You most likely are the only Russian woman in the town. Have you noticed any curious stares by the locals? Did you notice how trusting the people are?

[ECOCKS]

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[Ronnie]

This is not so funny, I'm sorry to say.  Here is one Russian who sees what's happening to America better than most in the west.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/

[KenC]

When I was 17, my Dad's trusty M-1with a 30 shot banana clip stopped a home invasion dead in it's tracks ( so to speak).  No shots were fired, but they easily could have been, but the presence of that gun was a surly appreciated at the time!  My 9MM colt and 12 gauge pump riot shotgun are always handy, but never needed to be used except at targets.

I also taught both my daughter and son how to shoot at early ages.  Respect for guns is mandatory as well as knowledge of how to use them.

The only reason our jails are over flowing is because of all the drug dealers imprisoned.  Legalising marijuana alone would open up a ton of occupancy for the real criminals.  Oh and let's off those on death row and quit wasting time, money and prison space on them.
KenC

[ECOCKS]

This is not so funny, I'm sorry to say.  Here is one Russian who sees what's happening to America better than most in the west.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/

Come on Ronnie. it was funny!

If it makes you feel better, I was crying on the inside, the herd is thundering towards the cliff. All you can do for now is work your way to the outer edge and try not to go over with them.

[Ronnie]

Ken, I think that most the prisoners who are in prison on drug charges would just find another way to get themselves incarcerated.  It amazes me how sociopathic people conduct their lives.   When I ride the Blue line that runs to the border, I see people (most of whom have crossed illegally) who simply don't think rules about having a ticket, eating on the train or putting feet on the seat apply to them.  The Green line from Old town to Santee is totally different.  Quite a micro study in human anti-social behavior.

BTW does your dad still have his M-1?  I'm in the market for a Garand, either Springfield or Winchester. 

[ECOCKS]

I forget which of the FSUW said it within the last few months, but this was tried before in a few coutries, it didn't work well then and it won't work well now.

This guy sees America's turning towards bailouts and entitlements while abandoning the values and traditions which brought us this far as a disaster in the making.

Many Americans agree with him.