Out of the blue

[Doll]

Hmmm, I cannot connect that but think it's great that you and your husband had this level of faith before your first meeting. Always great to hear a success story.

Faith is about self esteem, I think.

[Doll]

Would you have continued to accept his money if after the first meeting it would have been clear you had no interest in him ?

No

[Gator]

No

Ah ha!  That's the difference, a huge difference.

[Gator]

Aventino,

I have not been too kind about your woman.  Sorry; things just did not add up correctly in my opinion.

Having been negative, please let me make a positive contribution about what you need to do to find a woman ideal for you.  My suggested guidelines for your next search:

-  Use a reputable internet service such as Freepersonals, Lucky Lovers or Elena’s Models.  I have never heard of the agency you used.

-  Avoid women from cities with a history for scams. Your dyev’s regional city Lugansk is infamous for scams as if it were the culture there.

-  Find a RW who wants a common child.  You wrote,  “…and yes the child lives with me.”  RW mothers are famous for taking care of their children, less so for other's children.   They are already thinking, "My own child is driving me crazy - why do I need another one, especially one that is not mine."   Plant the seed about a common child but do not ask the question directly.  Let her voluntarily say that she wants a common child.  Such women are there.  I met a few when not even looking for them.

-  Find a RW who wants to make a “cozy” home and raise children. 

-  Find someone who has a sense of adventure because of your temporary residence in Hong Kong.  This is possibly a conflict with the RW strident on making a cozy home.  Intellectual curiosity is a good indicator.

 -  Never  allow yourself to fall in lust again at first sight.  Instead, look inside the woman.  Spend a lot of time with the woman.

-  Meet the parents, friends too.  A RW interested in you will want these meetings.  Few RW would consider marriage without her friends and family first meeting the man and expressing their opinions.  Also, if the parents like you, you will know it.  Key signs:  you drank too much vodka, you ate five strange concoctions of cabbage and potatoes and too many blini, the father made wholehearted exclamations in Russian as if you understood every word when all you notice is a genuinely huge golden-toothed smile, and you felt a refreshing sense of ease.

-  Don't use money to buy attention from a RW.  On the contrary, use the lack of money to test whether she is interested in you.  Nevertheless, a RW will want to know that you are financially secure.  And you must not be "greedy," so spend freely with interesting cocktails or fresh pineapple juice ($12 a glass), the best red roses, and one nice gift (a new phone or good shoes) at the conclusion of your meeting when it is clear that she wants to see you gain.  Give her money only when you are fairly sure about her feelings and only if she needs it (most single moms do need money and most RW without children can manage without it).

Good luck!

I appreciated your honesty and openness.  Many newbies come here with a defensive if not argumentative attitude.

[Doll]

Ah ha!  That's the difference, a huge difference.

Gator, we do not know what happened.
Just one example. Like I said I had a friend- AM who married an UW. Ok, God bless you. Half a year later he calls me and screams that his wife left for Ukraine for vacations (with two daughters) and stayed there- files for divorce. She didn't want to talk to him or email. I called her like he asked. What I heard was " He is so cheap! We had to live on pennies, the girls could never have clothing or cookies or candies. There is no way I can live with this man" They got divorced. Ok. A  year later he calls again- he started dating again and this time it was the woman from Russia ( a doctor). Same scenario- she met him in her city, then just dumped him.
I did talk to her either- same reason. So this AM was terribly greedy! He didn't think he was so didn't know the reason women left him.
 When we listen to one side- we never know what this side is hiding.
 Another story happened here when a woman married her AM.  Everything see,ed to be alright then OUT OF THE BLUE they got divorced. What happened? She didn't explain it for two more years then she did- this AM tried to rape the teenager, this woman's daughter. If we listen to him only, would he tell us the truth? No, he would b-tch his wife forever.

[Doll]

Key signs:  you drank too much vodka, you ate five strange concoctions of cabbage and potatoes and too many blini, the father made wholehearted exclamations in Russian as if you understood every word when all you notice is a genuinely huge golden-toothed smile, and you felt a refreshing sense of ease.

Боже мой, какой ужас!
Gator, dear, where did you get it?
 

[Doll]

On the contrary, use the lack of money to test whether she is interested in you.  Nevertheless, a RW will want to know that you are financially secure.

Go there, stay here 

[Gator]

Боже мой, какой ужас!
Gator, dear, where did you get it?
 

Been there, done that.  Some stuff can not be made up.

That day I touched the salt of the earth.  I came out a little saltier, and that is good.  

That day was one of the best 100 days in my life.  We all have great days.  The key is to realize such while it is unfolding.  

BTW, the meeting occurred in a smaller Russian city and I felt like I had dropped back in time, compared to a visit with a single parent in Moscow.  Good person, an intelligent, retired stage actress.  But no salt.  Different folks, different strokes.

[Gator]

Gator, we do not know what happened.

True, yet Aventino seems forthright.  And we will never hear her side.

Doll, I see no problem in your skepticism about the positions that men present here.  Yes, they are just one side of the story.  RWD needs balance and a RW opinion provides such.

So keep doing what you are doing.  I do not consider your probing as pestering.  Nevertheless, your opinion that I consider RW to be prostitutes is misguided to say the least. 

[Sculpto]

lol did I say I noticed some FSUW tend to exaggeration?

[I/O]

what is "Sumburg desperates"?

Women living in economic desperation, wherever that may be. For the most part it will be all the more difficult to distinguish their real motivations.

what does get a clue mean?

Read again, with relationships, NOTHING is EVER certain whether she is settled and happy or not.

Perhaps I/O did not read the initial posts that showed you knew absolutely nothing in the beginning.

Read them.

I think it is alot to ask someone who had their heart set on living somewhere such as the US to come to Hong Kong just because they want to be with me

Precisely! Learn. Avoid the women with their heart set on living in some particular location because you are likely to be a simple conduit to make that occur.

Our very lovable Doll, BF, Ooops, Olga and other RW I have noticed on here are the class of women who would never be thought of as included in the "Stipendiary Daters" group, however there is most certainly a percentage of RW who are (As there is in many countries in some form or another) and as such, is there a difference between a "Stipendiary dater" and a hooker? IMO, very little. Doll, you're way smarter than jumping behind Russian supersensitivities to make something out of nothing (Gators words) and I have had similar discussions with my wife on various subjects, so yes, it does stand out like 3 balls on a race dog . Do we know if this woman was "on the take"? No we don't and nor do I care, what I care about is the OP not putting himself in the position where he might need to figure that out. Don't put them on a bloody salary.

Having said that, a little soul baring might be called for and it was a hard learning experience for me. When Mrs I/O and I first got seriously together, for whatever reason (there were many on both sides), we didn't sleep together for quite some time. After we did sleep together the first time, devils timing, we were in "central" the next day, she was going one way and me another for a few hours, she had some shopping to do and I wasn't interested in being the bag trolley, nor was I interested in listening to the constant chatter with friends whom she was meeting for lunch/coffee/whatever. I knew she didn't have any great amount of coin in her pocket so I rolled up a wad of cash and put in her pocket with no more thought (typical man) than she should have some cash in her pocket. Oh boy!! Mistake of monumental proportions. WHAT IS THIS FOR? Was the demand! Fortunately, I immediately saw through the question and went right back on the attack (Surprise surprise). My response was "Cut the crap, you need money today, you are buying things for me also, I would be buying lunch etc if we were together which we will not, so stop looking for spiders under effing rocks, it is a gift with no strings attached but if you wont effing use it, give it back". I received the only apology any Russian woman has ever uttered I suspect.

The next time the subject of money was seriously discussed in that sort of light was probably 18 months to 2 years later when she was sitting in Russia waiting for her finace' visa. Mid summer and many of her friends were out of town for holidays, her parents had gone abroad for a holiday and her sister had done similar. She was depressed and lonely. She had now not been working for several months whilst waiting for the visa. Everything was in limbo. I suggested she go to her dearest friend in Yekaterinburg. She (in tears) blurted out she couldn't afford it. I exploded (As men do when they try to fix a problem rather than listen to it) and told her to get her sorry arse down to a certain bank and I would wire some money. Typical of her, "how do you know how much it will cost"? Me: "FFS, go and find out then if precision is an issue". I recall a lengthly chat session later that day when she laid out exactly what the train tickets would cost, estimations of food etc etc. It all came to about "bugger all". I wired about 3 times what she needed and again was lambasted for doing so. What I knew was that she had substantial savings (By many Russian standards) and was protecting a pre determined figure for her transition to Australia.

The point is, a woman who is not "on the take" stands out so much more clearly than those who blur the line. I think even our HK based buddy should be able to spot that and a whole new world might appear at his feet once he sees the difference. BTW, likewise a RW should be able to spot the difference between a "Greedy" man (yes I do understand how this translates) and a good or careful financial manager. Again, once she understands how to see that difference, a whole new world opens up.

I/O

[Doll]

Gator, I didn't say you considered RW prostitutes, I said you look at them LIKE they are prostitutes- I mean you recommend somebody to treat them this way

[Mir]

When we listen to one side- we never know what this side is hiding

And when we listen to both sides then we never know what these sides are hiding

No doubt it is important to hear both sides of the story before making our mind but does it bring is anywhere near the real truth? In most cases (especially relationships) it does not IMHO
For as Oscar Wild said

The truth is rarely pure and never simple

[aventino68]

Thanks all,

I/O agree that nothing is ever certain I meant that for all their talk of moving to be with you and all the love and caring and compassion that goes into the relationship, there still is the actual getting on the plane and saying goodbye to family.

But most importantly I have to ask about Lugansk, I thought that Nikolaev and Odessa and the South east area was the scammer area and that Lugansk was "more likely" to be ok. I know I'm not explaining myself well. I felt that I should try to stay in one town and meet women there, rather than rushing all over the place, so I thought Lugansk would be good. Now you are telling me otherwise.

So if I am going to pick a town where would it be. I love Kiev but think I should find a smaller town somewhere.

Still disagree about the money, if she chats online with two guys and one says, "here's money for SMS you send me and keeping in contact and taking some stress out of your life so we can try to make the relationship work" I would think she would go for him over some guy who gives nothing.

But I am new at all this.  

[aventino68]

Sorry posted twice

[SANDRO43]

But most importantly I have to ask about Lugansk, I thought that Nikolaev and Odessa and the South east area was the scammer area and that Lugansk was "more likely" to be ok.

Where did you get that idea ? Lugansk is generally considered the scam capital of the FSU .

[aventino68]

From reading through the forum, I'll find some past quotes and paste them.

Sounds like I need to change towns.

[Blues Fairy]

Still disagree about the money, if she chats online with two guys and one says, "here's money for SMS you send me and keeping in contact and taking some stress out of your life so we can try to make the relationship work" I would think she would go for him over some guy who gives nothing.

Seriously?  You think money is the decisive factor in choosing one over the other? 

[Sculpto]

BF is right Aventino..

The lady will choose the guy she likes the most.. assuming she is an honest woman.  A few pennies to pay for sms messages are little more than an insult.

[aventino68]

I just thought if she is spending on SMS to me and we were doing two or three a day from October and neither of us knew if this is the person for us then I think it is only right that I help out with what it is costing to keep a relationship with me. She is a single mum who isn't working and is living at home with her parents.

Sculpto, now you are telling me I insulted her
 

[groovlstk]

I just thought if she is spending on SMS to me and we were doing two or three a day from October and neither of us knew if this is the person for us then I think it is only right that I help out with what it is costing to keep a relationship with me. She is a single mum who isn't working and is living at home with her parents.

Sculpto, now you are telling me I insulted her
 

With this mentality you are totally setting yourself up for a major trainwreck in the future once you begin meeting other UW. This will be interesting to watch. 

[I/O]

Still disagree about the money, if she chats online with two guys and one says, "here's money for SMS you send me and keeping in contact and taking some stress out of your life so we can try to make the relationship work" I would think she would go for him over some guy who gives nothing.

Then let her go because she ain't worth you buddy.

Aventino: I'm thinking I agree with more than I disagree with your theories, it is the "practice" I am more concerned about and ability to be a bit more "street sharp". I agree completely with focussing on one (or limited number) location. You'll probably find plenty who think otherwise and many of them are still running hither and yon searching. Lughansterville has developed quite a reputation for being a hornets nest of scams. Perhaps you didn't know? You do now. Frankly, so what? Was your lady into scamming? Maybe, maybe not. I met one of the very nicest women I've met anywhere in the world years back and actually developed quite a relationship over time. At the time of meeting I didn't know she was from Lughansk. Was she a scammer? I wouldn't think so. Was she ever Mrs I/O? No and through no fault of hers, she simply wasn't my life partner for reasons we both understood.

My point is, don't get too lost in "This is a good city" or this is a "Trustworthy website". I think I mentioned up thread that I consider that all a bit of nonsense. There is good women in every city and on every website as there is bad. You need to sharpen your skills (This forum is a good starter) and take care of number one. NOBODY else including an agency or website or city is going to do that for you.

I/O

[OlgaH]

Olga, Doll and BF,

Your comments are those of sincere women.  Are all RW sincere?  MostRW?   What was sincere about Aventino's woman from Lugansk?  

Gator, maybe our comments (or I should speak only for mine) are also about that not all Russian men and Ukrainian men as well and even not most of them act as you have described.  

  And perhaps I lost points offering her some money, as it did not distinguish me from the RM.

from what kind of RM? from RM who gives a woman an amount of money to boink her (using your expression). In such case you could say "from any man who pays money for sex... American man, China man, German man and so on). Action of a man and woman that you have described is not a usual and everyday relationship in Russia between a man and a woman. It is a usual deal in prostitution business.

I don't know most RW are sincere or not. Probably you as American man who visited Russia so many times and met so many Russian women know better. I just can tell only about my friends and people that I have met, and among them most are sincere. Speaking of Russian men I have met and/or dated I can tell that no one of them never made me such insulting offer or even dropped hints  about money in exchange for sex and in such case your example, that sounds so general, is not a usual relationship in my opinion.

Regarding Aventino's situation I already have said.

[Doll]

Gator, maybe our comments (or I should speak only for mine) are also about that not all Russian men and Ukrainian men as well and even not most of them act as you have described.  

from what kind of RM? from RM who gives a woman an amount of money to boink her (using your expression). In such case you could say "from any man who pays money for sex... American man, China man, German man and so on). Action of a man and woman that you have described is not a usual and everyday relationship in Russia between a man and a woman. It is a usual deal in prostitution business.

I don't know most RW are sincere or not. Probably you as American man who visited Russia so many times and met so many Russian women know better. I just can tell only about my friends and people that I have met, and among them most are sincere. Speaking of Russian men I have met and/or dated I can tell that no one of them never made me such insulting offer or even dropped hints  about money in exchange for sex and in such case your example, that sounds so general, is not a usual relationship in my opinion.

Regarding Aventino's situation I already have said.

Totally agree.
So, Gator, I am not the only one who noticed it in your posts.

[Sculpto]

Aventino I dont think you insulted her.  400 a month is a lot.  There is something else.. probably as others have said.. she was playing different men.  You should feel lucky it didn't go further.  Let her take some other guy for a ride.

Also, as others have said.. seems like you need to toughen up a bit.  Myself i am pretty sensitive.. too much sometimes so I can relate.  But.. you need to find a way to stand your ground more and not get walked on.  Lots of different methods for doing that, but, it does really seem like you don't have a lot of experience with women based on what you have written.

You might want to think about that before trying again.