Out of the blue

[Daveman]

Ok so first trips were only a few days and then did 10-14 days every month over the past 4 months. I wanted this woman so when she said it's too early for marriage I was happy to wait.

When you all first asked about money I was a bit embarrassed to say, I didn't want you or her to feel I was buying time with her. You have all been honest and forthright with your views. I can see I should have given her a monthly allowance months ago and not wait until we were engaged. I need too be more realistic.

I am kicking myself for not asking you all a bunch of questions before I fell for her. I don't mind where the money went but I thought (felt better) giving it to support her daughter and in turn her. That's why I didn't see it as just handing over money.


Maybe the money would have shown my intentions more than asking for marriage?  

I have another trip in July and August. From Hong Kong I go Singapore for visa back to Hong Kong down to Dubai over to Kiev and on to Lugansk.

No, it would not... not to a sincere, decent woman who loves you for who you are.

Okay, I didn't read the entire thread, but I must say here that I disagree with paying a woman a "monthly salary" to be your girlfriend.  That thought process to me is absolutely asinine.   I would not pay a woman a salary even after being engaged. Help out where needed, of course, but really, why in the world should you pay her a monthly wage under the guise of "proving future support by paying me monthly now?"  Really, that's as goofy to me as the "shopping greedy test".

Unless she's a complete astronomical idiot (or just plain greedy herself), she'll understand the man's character enough to realize that she'll be supported without some premature "pay me money" support game. 

I believe in helping where necessary, but putting a girlfriend on the monthly payroll is ridiculous.  Would you pay your western girl a monthly salary? What if you were engaged, would you suddenly add her to the payroll? 

if you would, then you're a buffoon and should immediately send all your money to TV evangelists, along with a prayer request to send you the perfect woman from heaven.  Stay far far FAR  away from any woman who thinks paying her monthly support prior to marriage is important. 

I'm a proponent of the "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality, but this "give me a monthly payment or you're not serious" crap is just that.. crap. 

Aventino, I agree with most of the others who tell you to simply walk away. I know it's difficult to do with unanswered questions, but really, sometimes in life stuff happens for whatever reason.  I also agree with Sculpto that it could be an immature test of some sort, so you could call her on the phone and simply say firmly "Don't be an idiot, we are perfect for each other, we have this, this, this, and this, and everything is good.  Get ready for my next visit... blah blah blah".   If she's playing a game, she'll love that response.  Some FSU women do play this kind of game, so if you want, you can play it back.  It's a way to get an answer without grovelling if you must. 

Anyway, good luck and I wish you the best...

[Ooooops]

I don't have a Ukraine embassy nearby

You've said that originally you are from Europe, right? 

Citizens of the following countries can now visit Ukraine without a visa for periods of up to 90 days over a 180 day period with a valid passport:

    USA, Canada, Japan, EU nations, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Vatican, Iceland, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, Mongolia, Lithuania and the countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States (except Turkmenistan).

[Gator]

Some FSU women do play this kind of game, so if you want, you can play it back.

I have seen it on the streets with a RM begging his RW to forgive him as she walks away.  However, it is the young RW I assume who do this, as not one of the more mature RW ever played this game with me.  All were direct and forthright, qualities I cherish.

 

[GoodOlBoy]

......I must say here that I disagree with paying a woman a "monthly salary" to be your girlfriend.  That thought process to me is absolutely asinine.   I would not pay a woman a salary even after being engaged. Help out where needed, of course,

Daveman is right Aventino68.

If your FSUW is sincere, she will NOT ask for money or accept any.

The "good" ones are just to proud to behave this way.

Giving ANY woman money that you are NOT living with, is a very bad idea.


GOB

[Daveman]

I have seen it on the streets with a RM begging his RW to forgive him as she walks away.  However, it is the young RW I assume who do this, as not one of the more mature RW ever played this game with me.  All were direct and forthright, qualities I cherish.

 

Same here. This is something I really like.  I would agree and also share your assumption that it is the more emotionally immature ladies who do this. I haven't seen an RM begging on the street, but I did see a woman in Odessa following a man down the street screaming at him "Ni khachu tebya!" like 600 times.  To his credit, he just kept walking stoned faced and disappeared in the distance, allowing her to make a complete fool of herself in public.  The lady followed him for several blocks shouting. A whipped cream pie in the face would have been a magical moment I think..    :evil:

During the communication process, I've had a few in their thirties exhibit this kind of behavior to varying degrees... usually beginning with "I think we not good for each other..." but really just fishing for reassurance of interest or whatever it would be termed.  Very similar to the "packed bags test" discussed in many places in other threads here.  I'm still unsure how I would react to that packed bags thing.  Even knowing about it and understanding the nature of it, I would have some serious difficulty not just shrugging and saying "yeah, I think that's best.. let's git on down to the airport".  I tend to move away from women who do this kind of thing. None to whom I actually traveled to meet played games in such ways.

The lady mentioned in this thread is 25 (I think)... 

[Daveman]

Daveman is right Aventino68.

If your FSUW is sincere, she will NOT ask for money or accept any.

The "good" ones are just to proud to behave this way.

Giving ANY woman money that you are NOT living with, is a very bad idea.


GOB

You know, there are some aspects I can understand... such as with the interview date approaching, allowing her opportunity to to quit working and prepare for the move... or a man volunteering to help the lady live in better conditions, whatever.  I think it's natural for a man to want to give to the woman he loves... not saying it's a good idea, but I do think it's a natural tendency of a decent man.

What I don't get is that sense of entitlement to being paid an income or why in hell any man would tolerate such an attitude.  That would seem to be a blazing portent of things to come, none of which being good.

[aventino68]

For me I suppose it's all about what financial situation she is in when you meet her. If she has an income and is surviving then why give her anything that isn't related to the cost of having a long distance relationship with you? But if she is struggling and you can see that she is under a certain amount of financial stress and you think the relationship is at a serious and committed level? Then it only seems correct to help out in some way while trying to strike a balance between being used for you money and showing you aren't actually blind to the hardships she is facing.

This is all related to where you think the relationship is at the time you started trying to help out and for me this was also trying to show that I was intending to treat both children the same. In hindsight I was completely wrong.

[mendeleyev]

Aventino, I am sorry to read a little of what happened as I read the first couple of pages and then this last one. A quick comment about money is that there is an issue among some UW/RW in regards to boyfriends making them "private." It's just what it sounds like--the UM/RM wants her as a girlfriend and his support guarantees her fidelity. This is usually in cases where a marriage is not on the horizon, and I'm certainly not recommending that as a marriage strategy.

I mention that however because often what a WM thinks is going on can be different that what she or her family think is going on. Perhaps it might be easy to imagine parents pulling her aside and saying 'look, you need to get serious. You're not getting any younger and this man is using you for his frequent vacation trips to Ukraine, so we've got someone in mind, the son of a family friend is single, so lets get real about your future.' The fact that you'd proposed and in your mind the trips were not vacations may not mean much if her parents had not developed a relationship with you to know your intentions.

Given the emotional ties typically between most UW/RW and their families, it is my belief that a man should actively invest time in courting the family as well. Not with money and gifts but with establishing relationships which are more binding than we typically experience with "in laws" in the West. Hard when you're dating by email and profiles, but necessary.

The question of finances is always tricky and must be measured with common sense. Putting her into a new apartment, making a car available, having enough cash to upgrade her lifestyle with pretty new clothes and cosmetics certainly does make it easier for her to become more "marketable" and snag a local man close to home, but I have a feeling that is not how most WM would want a girl to spend his money.

The problem is that socially there can be a stigma in marrying a foreigner, and the easiest way to solve that is to make sure the man is one who has the ability to make her situation better. That changes the dynamic and the only way to show her "close people" (to coin a local phrase) that the marriage to a foreigner is worth it, is if her situation actually improves--starting "now." That can put a WM in a difficult spot and if the man hasn't built adequate relationships where her family is also on his side, unbelievable pressure can be put on a lady to question whether she has made a smart choice.

There is a Russian proverb that says, “Don't buy the house, buy the neighborhood.” Keeping in mind that most Ukrainians and Russians don't live in neighborhoods of single family dwellings, what does that mean? My mother in law says its about lots of things in life, including marriage--you don't just marry the girl, you marry her family. I hope next time you'll really invest in the "neighborhood" as well.

I apologize in advance if it sounds like this is beating you up, because that is not my intent.

[facetrock]

  Very good and informative post.

[aventino68]

Thanks all, I have learn't a fair bit from coming on here so I'm glad I did. I can update if anyone wants as I got an email from her yesterday and I have felt she has always been truthful.

She feels that I pushed her to make a decision about meeting her parents and there wasn't enough between us at that stage for her to be fully committed to doing that. I, on the other hand having begun falling in love with her from being with her felt that the relationship was a little more mature. She wants more time together as she still sees the relationship as young, and I want to do fun stuff with her but lots of the fun stuff to do is out of the Ukraine which requires committment from her. She already has it from me.

She also says she has a few issues to sort out that weren't going to go away and our relationship has bought these to the surface, she couldn't cope with all of this going on so elected to sort out her priorities first. She didn't feel that taking a couple of months off from us was an option I would give her. None of it was ever about the money but, as you have all been saying, when the girl is younger (mid 20's) she has options, wants to make the right choice and in hindsight with this girl, I was in too much of a hurry. 

Where to from here? Well, I will head back in July so I have asked her to look at what we have, what we shared and decide if it's a good start to something special or not. The red flags are still there so I'll wait for her reply and take one step at a time.



 

 

[Gator]

Aventino, I am sorry to read a little of what happened as I read the first couple of pages and then this last one. A quick comment about money is that there is an issue among some UW/RW in regards to boyfriends making them "private." It's just what it sounds like--the UM/RM wants her as a girlfriend and his support guarantees her fidelity. This is usually in cases where a marriage is not on the horizon, and I'm certainly not recommending that as a marriage strategy.

I mention that however because often what a WM thinks is going on can be different that what she or her family think is going on. Perhaps it might be easy to imagine parents pulling her aside and saying 'look, you need to get serious. You're not getting any younger and this man is using you for his frequent vacation trips to Ukraine, so we've got someone in mind, the son of a family friend is single, so lets get real about your future.' The fact that you'd proposed and in your mind the trips were not vacations may not mean much if her parents had not developed a relationship with you to know your intentions.

Given the emotional ties typically between most UW/RW and their families, it is my belief that a man should actively invest time in courting the family as well. Not with money and gifts but with establishing relationships which are more binding than we typically experience with "in laws" in the West. Hard when you're dating by email and profiles, but necessary.

The question of finances is always tricky and must be measured with common sense. Putting her into a new apartment, making a car available, having enough cash to upgrade her lifestyle with pretty new clothes and cosmetics certainly does make it easier for her to become more "marketable" and snag a local man close to home, but I have a feeling that is not how most WM would want a girl to spend his money.

The problem is that socially there can be a stigma in marrying a foreigner, and the easiest way to solve that is to make sure the man is one who has the ability to make her situation better. That changes the dynamic and the only way to show her "close people" (to coin a local phrase) that the marriage to a foreigner is worth it, is if her situation actually improves--starting "now." That can put a WM in a difficult spot and if the man hasn't built adequate relationships where her family is also on his side, unbelievable pressure can be put on a lady to question whether she has made a smart choice.

There is a Russian proverb that says, “Don't buy the house, buy the neighborhood.” Keeping in mind that most Ukrainians and Russians don't live in neighborhoods of single family dwellings, what does that mean? My mother in law says its about lots of things in life, including marriage--you don't just marry the girl, you marry her family. I hope next time you'll really invest in the "neighborhood" as well.

I apologize in advance if it sounds like this is beating you up, because that is not my intent.

Very well expressed.  Are you listening Aventino?  Other men just now dating their first RW, are you listening?

FYI, Mendeleev is a journalist and especially trained and gifted both as an observer of life in the FSU where he resides, and also as a reporter of what he observes.

[Blues Fairy]

That can put a WM in a difficult spot and if the man hasn't built adequate relationships where her family is also on his side, unbelievable pressure can be put on a lady to question whether she has made a smart choice.
you don't just marry the girl, you marry her family.

If I were in your shoes aventino, I would run from a girl like that as fast as I could.  Someone who is so suggestible and dependent on their family's opinions is not likely to become an equal partner in a relationship. Unless, of course, you want a totally dependent and suggestible wife.

[Gator]

She feels that I pushed her to make a decision about meeting her parents and there wasn't enough between us at that stage for her to be fully committed to doing that.

She also says she has a few issues to sort out that weren't going to go away and our relationship has bought these to the surface, she couldn't cope with all of this going on so elected to sort out her priorities first.

Actually, these are signs of a sincere woman.  She is 25 with a child 6 years old?  That means she was pregnant at 18.  Her parents are reminding her of how she rushed into something 7 years ago and paid for it.  They want her to go slow and be sure.  She feels the same and does not want to enter the same river again.

These are also signs that she is not feeling much passion about you.  Just being a nice man and solid provider to her will never make her heart sing.  Is that enough for you?  I hope not, especially at your age and with a young son to raise.  Find someone who will fill your home with love.

....in hindsight with this girl, I was in too much of a hurry.

Most men are.  Long distance relationships prompt such behavior, especially if the man has limited time and money.

[Ooooops]

These are also signs that she is not feeling much passion about you.  Just being a nice man and solid provider to her will never make her heart sing.  Is that enough for you?  I hope not, especially at your age and with a young son to raise.  Find someone who will fill your home with love.

Quite often in relationship of two people one loves more and other gratefully accepts this extra love.   Plus, I know a lot of examples when marriages built on love and passion ended in divorce just as well as the loveless ones.   And I know of other examples, when love gradually developed in families built on other qualities - trust, friendship etc.    So I wouldn't be so heist on "find somebody with lots of passion for you"   

[aventino68]

Most men are.  Long distance relationships prompt such behavior, especially if the man has limited time and money.

Provided I don't feel over the hill having hit the 40's I have a reasonable supply of both.  Having decided that there is a RW out there looking for me that I need to find, I will keep looking. Mendeleyev I was always keen to meet her family and get them over here for a holiday, a visa for her brother if he wanted to stay with us and work in Hong Kong, had organised living in her home town for 3 months each year and commuting to Paris for work, and will be more than happy to do so again next time I find another great woman.

Hey, this one was great maybe she just wasn't for me. I was always all about the family.

[I/O]

a man should actively invest time in courting the family as well. Not with money and gifts but with establishing relationships which are more binding than we typically experience with "in laws" in the West. Hard when you're dating by email and profiles, but necessary.

That is some seriously GOOD advice for handling any prospect and especially so if the lady is younger. Whichever way you look at it there is no downside, no risk and nothing to lose. The result will be a happier wife when she is with you and who wins from that? Everyone, Mama, Papa, Wife and You, not to mention kids if they are involved.

How refreshing to read such a well written and sound post.

I/O

[Ooooops]

a man should actively invest time in courting the family as well

That is some seriously GOOD advice for handling any prospect and especially so if the lady is younger.

I disagree.   Tell me how often children take advise from parents on what's good for them?       I don't see much sense in "courting the family".   You are marrying a woman, not her Mama & Papa, sisters & brothers, Aunts & Uncles...      

[Gator]

I disagree.   Tell me how often children take advise from parents on what's good for them?       I don't see much sense in "courting the family".   You are marrying a woman, not her Mama & Papa, sisters & brothers, Aunts & Uncles...      

Interesting, and coming from a RW no less!

For sure I do not plan to sleep with her Mama.  :hairraising:  And the separation by distance and language makes it impossible to connect closely.

Yet, courting the family has benefits:

1.  Having the blessing of the family is important, if for nothing more than enhancing the RW's confidence about entering an international marriage.  The more confidence, the more commitment IMO. 

2.  I would think that not having the family's blessing will slowly eat at her sense of fulfillment.

3.  Family values are important to me.  And with the few RW that I knew well, their sense of family was near tribal.  This translated into the type of family I wanted.

4.  A RW allowing her man to interact with the family is a solid indicator that she is seriously interested in the possibility of marriage.

[I/O]

  How I knew this would come. Sorry, but sometimes, just sometimes, RW are oh so predictable. I guess we all are......

I disagree.   Tell me how often children take advise from parents on what's good for them?    

In my family children TAKE advice (which is dolled out very sparingly) from parents whether they like it or not. 'Sway it was for me, never stunted my growth, 'sway it is for them.  

I don't see much sense in "courting the family".   You are marrying a woman, not her Mama & Papa, sisters & brothers, Aunts & Uncles...  

BS, she is Russian.

Ooooops, I could almost hear yours, BF and other RW teeth grinding when I wrote up thread LOL. If I may expand slightly. I married a young RW, she has done her utmost to adapt and IMO she is succeeding, however my friendship with her parents, sisters and so forth has made it easier. I don't mind a bit if she spends hours chatting to mum on Skype (as she is right now) or whatever. How much harder for her would it be if I never bothered with her family and was not interested in hearing the latest "news". Would she not be so much more lonely at times? Conversely, Mrs I/O and my own mother (Whom I don't see all that often) have struck up quite a friendship which has also made it much easier for her to adapt, there was the free "taxi" and introduction to every obscure shopping location etc early on and now quite a bit shared privately between them which is no business of mine. Where is the downside to building a relationship with your spouses family?

My MIL is only a few years older than me and once joked I should be marrying her rather than her daughter. I offered a discount for a "bulk deal" and even with my very limited Russian, I was able to clearly understand she was retracting the offer in no uncertain terms. Ever stood between hen and chicks? Usually you'll end up with hen flapping in your face whilst chicks disappear between your feet.

If I may make another point, how much BS do we hear about guys chasing these so called family oriented, traditional (God I hate that word in this context) women? If these women were to be even partly so, wouldn't it be likely they would be close to, HELLO, family? What sense would it make for Joe Schmuck to cut family out of the loop in his thinking?

I/O

[Ooooops]

3.  Family values are important to me.  And with the few RW that I knew well, their sense of family was near tribal.  This translated into the type of family I wanted.

That's the thing - husband and wife should have similar views on such important matters.   Myself and my better half are both gypsies and tumble-weeds, so we are only married to each other, not to our families.   

PS.   My family didn't meet my husband till after our 2d anniversary.   

[Ooooops]

In my family children TAKE advice (which is dolled out very sparingly) from parents whether they like it or not.

I left home when I was 17.   Since then no more advices could be forced on me.   

[HiTech]

Provided I don't feel over the hill having hit the 40's I have a reasonable supply of both.  Having decided that there is a RW out there looking for me that I need to find, I will keep looking. Mendeleyev I was always keen to meet her family and get them over here for a holiday, a visa for her brother if he wanted to stay with us and work in Hong Kong, had organised living in her home town for 3 months each year and commuting to Paris for work, and will be more than happy to do so again next time I find another great woman.

Hey, this one was great maybe she just wasn't for me. I was always all about the family.

I believe your mind and gut are a little conflicted at the moment? But I believe your choice of letting this relationship end , and searching again is the wiser choice.  

Most here can empathize with this woman's feelings, (if what she is telling you is real) From what you posted it sounds as if she wanted things to work out, saw you as a good man, but never saw you as the man for her.  Most of us have some selfishness in us, but when we know our discussions effect others we care for, we talk to them about the conflicts. I am in no way saying this woman was completely using you,  but as most RW will say, I am not interested in words, but actions.

So for argument sake lets assume what she is saying is mostly true.

She did not feel comfortable enough to have you meet her parents. Yes many men can push a relationship forward to quickly. But you had know her 4 months with 4 visits. If she had not made the discussion by this time that your relationship was a serious one, and she should be moving forward to build a lasting relationship, she most likely never will. At minimum a person who was seriously considering options would have brought the topic up with you. She made her choices with out speaking with you first, this behavior is unlikely to change, so ask yourself, is this really behavior you wish to live with?

Long distance relationships, especially across culture & language differences are not easy. The require lots of trust and also importantly lots of communication. A lot of what she is displaying is simply youth, but she really still does not know what she wants. This is why dating very young woman is problematic, because THEY have not determined if they really wish to meet a foreign man, and have not seriously considered what the real life consequences are.

Good luck on your next adventure, you appear to be a man searching and learning, and hence should  succeed in the quest.

HiTech

[Blues Fairy]

however my friendship with her parents, sisters and so forth has made it easier.

What sense would it make for Joe Schmuck to cut family out of the loop in his thinking?

I/O, I agree that having the future inlaws' approval helps a great deal.  But let's look at it from this angle: say Joe Schmuck is marrying a girl who is traditional and very close to her parents, and they expressly disapprove of Joe Schmuck.  Should he invest into courting their good opinion?  I think not.  I think he should take a long hard look at his future wife. 

If the parents always know better what's best for their daughter and are arrogant enough to openly express their disapproval of her choice, it may well be that they simply disrespect their daughter and have always done so.  Any ideas how that might have affected her self-esteem and decision-making skills?  Any ideas how she might be equipped for coping with other people's disapproval, be it her employer or even her future children?

[Shadow]

Thanks all, I have learn't a fair bit from coming on here so I'm glad I did. I can update if anyone wants as I got an email from her yesterday and I have felt she has always been truthful.

I feel you still have a lot to learn.

She feels that I pushed her to make a decision about meeting her parents and there wasn't enough between us at that stage for her to be fully committed to doing that. I, on the other hand having begun falling in love with her from being with her felt that the relationship was a little more mature. She wants more time together as she still sees the relationship as young, and I want to do fun stuff with her but lots of the fun stuff to do is out of the Ukraine which requires committment from her. She already has it from me.

Six trips in six month and you are pushing her ? 
You are played. She wants more support for her child, if you decide not to send any more money she might disappear.

She also says she has a few issues to sort out that weren't going to go away and our relationship has bought these to the surface, she couldn't cope with all of this going on so elected to sort out her priorities first. She didn't feel that taking a couple of months off from us was an option I would give her. None of it was ever about the money but, as you have all been saying, when the girl is younger (mid 20's) she has options, wants to make the right choice and in hindsight with this girl, I was in too much of a hurry. 

Try with the next RW to wait six months before proposing and you will see she will decide you are not serious enough in your pursuit.
If she would be serious about you, she would count the days until you could be together full-time.

Where to from here? Well, I will head back in July so I have asked her to look at what we have, what we shared and decide if it's a good start to something special or not. The red flags are still there so I'll wait for her reply and take one step at a time.

Bad move. Instead of moving on, you continue to be her backup plan.
If you must, then at least try to contact other women to meet during the July trip, and make sure she knows about it.

[Faux Pas]

I feel you still have a lot to learn.
Six trips in six month and you are pushing her ? 
You are played. She wants more support for her child, if you decide not to send any more money she might disappear.
Try with the next RW to wait six months before proposing and you will see she will decide you are not serious enough in your pursuit.
If she would be serious about you, she would count the days until you could be together full-time.
Bad move. Instead of moving on, you continue to be her backup plan.
If you must, then at least try to contact other women to meet during the July trip, and make sure she knows about it.

Solid and sound advice.

aventino,
You've taken a big kick in the pants from this woman and you still seem very passive about it. So passive it seems to me you'd marry her tomorrow if you were given that opportunity. 4 months and 4 visits is something  that is very difficult for most WM to achieve. This was ample time for her to decide if you were a serious contender for her husband. After accepting your trips and your money she then decided that you were not in contention and informed you point blank.

It seems after your inquiry and her reflection, she may have decided she made a mistake. It still doesn't appear you are in contention for anything but more support. She may be a nice girl with good intentions but everything points to someone besides you. She has played you like a fiddle and if you keep up this charade of a relationship she will continue to play you.

My advice is to get busy living and get on with your life. You've learned much from this woman and it will help you in many ways as you find a woman worthy of you. Advice I give often is to slow down (much to the dismay of other members here), look for the lady that interests you and you interest her back. You have the means and ability to truly wine, dine and romance your interests in RW/UW. I can't fully understand why you would even consider a future with this lady. Get busy man.