The Dreaded WOVO

[Shadow]

As it often happens, at least two of these women have offered to meet me at the Airport, and book hotel for me.
At this time I would decline, I want to go there without any preference to anyone until we meet. Low expectations.

By now you have experience enough to get around on your own.
Ekatarinaburg is planning a new airport, seems it will be an important crossroad for FSU flights soon.

[Blues Fairy]

Even the almost ugly ones think they are beautiful after reading the groveling and defending that goes on with WM trying to woo them.

There are very good reasons why most of these women cannot find husbands in their own countries.  The local men don't want them; beautiful or not.

You sound very bitter.  I wonder what "most of these women" have done to deserve such contempt.

[Daveman]

...

There are very good reasons why most of these women cannot find husbands in their own countries.  The local men don't want them; beautiful or not.

Of course, this is absolutely true in some cases.  There are some wackos over there for sure.  It could (and is) argued by the women that there is a good reason why we men don't find our partner in our own country as well. Mostly by disgruntled women who have some kind of gut gag reaction, or axe to grind over the process.

If you are running into many ladies who really do fall into this category, try a different approach.  Sure, I've/we've come across some who are as you described.  This is a needle in a haystack kind of venture anyway.  No need for any of us to become jaded -- just become more focused.  Works for me anyway.

[Maxx2]

Ekaterinburg has no agencies; it appears there is no bridal business there.

Ekaterinburg was the first city in Russia I visited. I have fond memories of it. Lots of beautiful women. At that time (2001) and a few years afterwards it had several agencies. But there was a lot of scamming going on with them and they lost their credit card portal services provided by their American partners.

[Maxx2]

By now you have experience enough to get around on your own.
Ekatarinaburg is planning a new airport, seems it will be an important crossroad for FSU flights soon.

I flew into E-Burg twice from SVO1. The airport required that one disboard down a ramp at the tail of the plane. Get into a trailer towed by what looked like a 60's truck and be driven to the terminal. There is a big international economic conference being held there (or just was).

[ben_nevis]

Yee gads Max, JB, Facetrock... are you guys still here?? Hehehe.. Now all we need is WitchDoctor, Boston Bubba and AndrewFi and it will be just like old days. Good to see you are still about and going strong. All the best Ben.

[ambach123]

I grapple with WOVO and WMVM. There is a ton of information here in archives but no clear cut answer, which is better.

The advantage of WOVO is that you spend one or two weeks with ONE woman, you really get to know her. There are good chances that both of you would like each other. There are good chances that both of you would not like each other.

With WMVM, you meet for coffee, and may be for dinner, good chances that you will never see each other again. Many people don't click in one or two meetings.

In my previous three experiences, it was WOVO, and we jelled very well, but not until the fourth or fifth day of the meeting. If it was a one or two meetings, probably we would have never known each other.

[Turboguy]

There are other ways to do it.  I agree with you that meeting over coffee is not going to get you well enough acquainted to really know what you do or don't have in common.  However two weeks with a woman you don't click with can be worse than spending two weeks of a Chinese water torture.   The worst part is sometimes it is easier to go with the program and just count the days until you leave rather than confront the harsh reality.

My chose was usually to make a trip of a couple of weeks and try to meet 4-5 women spending a few days with possibilities and 3-5 days with ones I thought were probabilites.  Usually the ones I had the highest hopes for were duds as far as the quality of the meeting and the ones that I was meeting more because they were in the right spot were the ones I clicked better with.

[Gator]

However two weeks with a woman you don't click with can be worse than spending two weeks of a Chinese water torture.   The worst part is sometimes it is easier to go with the program and just count the days until you leave rather than confront the harsh reality.

Two weeks!   :hairraising:

I had a holiday in hell also.  I spent a good day with one UW in her hometownm and she convinced me to take a romantic holiday together in Turkey.  Why not as I was loose and free.  She booked an all-inclusive one-week tour.  When we arrived, the large bed she ordered was two twins pushed together with large size linens (leads to some "funny" positions and predicaments). 

Fast forward over the details (suffice it to say we were incompatible in every way possible).  Two days later I parted the beds and ordered small size linen.  We ate our meals together and that was painful.  There is not a lot to do in those Turkey holidays when alone.  Never repeated the mistake, and I can not imagine two weeks.  Hope you had some drugs.

[Turboguy]

ambach mentioned two weeks.  Fortunately I was always smart enought to keep first meetings a little shorter than that.   I did spend a day or two with women when it seemed like two weeks or maybe two years.

It has been said many times the until you meet you are just pen pals.   Sometimes you can write and chat with someone and reach the point where you feel you know them better than people you have spent hours and hours with in real life and then when that meeting finally occurs you may get the surprise of your life. 

[ambach123]

I don't plan to  meet anyone for more than a week for the first time.
All of my three previous experiences were WOVO and they went very well, they were not chinese water torture, far from it. But such a possibility remains.

Seveal reasons why I am considering WOVO approach.

Firstly with WMVM, it is very difficult to get to know each other in a few meetings. Several people on this board have used the WMVM approach for years and have not gotten anywhere, I don't want to point them out, look up the trip reports.

Secondly, when the women find out, and they will, that you are seeing other women, their interest drops considerably. Somehow FSU women give so much credence to exclusivity, that surprised me. They want to feel that you came " just to see her ".
Don't ask me why they are this way, but they are.
Personally I think WMVM should be right approach, but my opinion is not shared by most of the RW. And you will lose many of them due to this alone, and the others would have limited interests.
Thirdly, there was a poll someplace, among those that were successful, about half used the WOVO approach. The other half used all other methods combined. So it was the most productive method

[HiTech]

In my previous three experiences, it was WOVO, and we jelled very well, but not until the fourth or fifth day of the meeting.

And how well did the 3 "JELLS" work out in the end? Ambach, you seem to be missing the goal of this adventure. The goal is not to "Jell" with some one on a trip, the goal is to find the woman you wish to be with forever. So a simple question comes to mind, will you most likely jell with this woman on the first day, or in 4 days? I would submit that if you do not jell on the first day, you never really will, this is not the same as saying if you jell on the first day all will work out well.

As you state you have now met 3 woman on 3 trips, all of which you did not click with on the first day or 2.  A wise man "someone who learns from mistakes" would start to take a look at his approach. WOVO can and work and does for some men, but I believe that  the men who succeed with  wovo do so on first trip.

I have done both types of trips. My first was a wovo approach, I ended that relationship on the 2nd day and went to plan B, with out good advice from this board to not continue on with a relationship , I would have just been seeing her for another 2 weeks, with out meeting other woman and learning from the meetings.

When I finally met Alyona, the sparks were flying both ways with in 15 mins of talking. There was still a lot of learning about each other after that time, and there were many possibilities where things would not have worked out between us. But that initial fun we had together, the ability to make each other laugh and smile that we had with in minuets of meeting has not changed at all.

And I believe this is the "Danger" of a first time meeting wovo, you put a lot of emotional energy into the meeting before meeting, and hence you feel you have a lot invested, and when you meet things are not has you hoped, but you believe you should still keep trying , "As you did" because you have a lot of time and emotion already invested  .

On the flip side, WOVO is great when it succeeds,but for this to happen both parties must have the ability to clearly see each other via email, phone, and video. Being as you have failed at this "SEEING" 3 times on a wovo, I would submit you are not one of these people.

My point is not which method is better, each person is different so what works for one will not work for others. Things you see as a detriment like,

Secondly, when the women find out, and they will, that you are seeing other women, their interest drops considerably. Somehow FSU women give so much credence to exclusivity, that surprised me. They want to feel that you came " just to see her

I see as a benefit to WMVM because woman who view things as above, also tend to be the jealous demanding type, which would never fit my personality. For ME and ME only if a woman can not see the simple facts about the expense and effort a man has in traveling to meet her vs her effort of simply meeting in her home city, the this would not be a woman for me.


There are also a different set of rules to adhere to in each approach. In a WMVM it is very important to only approach the premeeting time with out any romance. The letter writing time is not a lot more then asking basic what are your goals, history and and scheduling of meetings. Writing many woman more than 2 months before traveling on a WMVM is a waist of time in my opinion.

This is in contrast to a WOVO where you want to communicate as much as you can because you are trying to find out as best you can if you will click together on the first meeting. You almost wish to build a little romance to feel a bond before meeting.

Now my view is that WMVM is only the initial meeting trip, if you find a woman, from that point on you must be a one woman man.

HiTech

[GoodOlBoy]

And how well did the 3 "JELLS" work out in the end? Ambach, you seem to be missing the goal of this adventure. The goal is not to "Jell" with some one on a trip, the goal is to find the woman you wish to be with forever. So a simple question comes to mind, will you most likely jell with this woman on the first day, or in 4 days? I would submit that if you do not jell on the first day, you never really will, this is not the same as saying if you jell on the first day all will work out well.

As you state you have now met 3 woman on 3 trips, all of which you did not click with on the first day or 2.  A wise man "someone who learns from mistakes" would start to take a look at his approach. WOVO can and work and does for some men, but I believe that  the men who succeed with  wovo do so on first trip.

I have done both types of trips. My first was a wovo approach, I ended that relationship on the 2nd day and went to plan B, with out good advice from this board to not continue on with a relationship , I would have just been seeing her for another 2 weeks, with out meeting other woman and learning from the meetings.

When I finally met Alyona, the sparks were flying both ways with in 15 mins of talking. There was still a lot of learning about each other after that time, and there were many possibilities where things would not have worked out between us. But that initial fun we had together, the ability to make each other laugh and smile that we had with in minuets of meeting has not changed at all.

And I believe this is the "Danger" of a first time meeting wovo, you put a lot of emotional energy into the meeting before meeting, and hence you feel you have a lot invested, and when you meet things are not has you hoped, but you believe you should still keep trying , "As you did" because you have a lot of time and emotion already invested  .

On the flip side, WOVO is great when it succeeds,but for this to happen both parties must have the ability to clearly see each other via email, phone, and video. Being as you have failed at this "SEEING" 3 times on a wovo, I would submit you are not one of these people.

My point is not which method is better, each person is different so what works for one will not work for others. Things you see as a detriment like,

I see as a benefit to WMVM because woman who view things as above, also tend to be the jealous demanding type, which would never fit my personality. For ME and ME only if a woman can not see the simple facts about the expense and effort a man has in traveling to meet her vs her effort of simply meeting in her home city, the this would not be a woman for me.


There are also a different set of rules to adhere to in each approach. In a WMVM it is very important to only approach the premeeting time with out any romance. The letter writing time is not a lot more then asking basic what are your goals, history and and scheduling of meetings. Writing many woman more than 2 months before traveling on a WMVM is a waist of time in my opinion.

This is in contrast to a WOVO where you want to communicate as much as you can because you are trying to find out as best you can if you will click together on the first meeting. You almost wish to build a little romance to feel a bond before meeting.

Now my view is that WMVM is only the initial meeting trip, if you find a woman, from that point on you must be a one woman man.

HiTech

Hey HiTech.

I think I finally might understand your opinion about WMVM.

Without putting words in your mouth, let me see if I can sum up your point (correct me if I am wrong).

I will break this down into 2 categories:

WOVO....In this pursuit you will take MORE time (4-5 months or more?)  trying to develop some kind of "emotional" attachment to the person on the other end of the internet/telephone, before meeting her.

WMVM....In this pursuit you will take LESS time (1-2 months or less?) contacting numerous FSU ladies, making NO commitment/promises or emotional comments to any of them, BEFORE meeting.

I am also curious about your opinion concerning a "WMVM" FSU lady who might insist on meeting you at the airport or trying to arrange a hotel/tour/excursion for the both of you?

How would you handle this situation (being "fair" to all the other ladies)?

Also, I am curious what your take would be on a "WMVM" FSU lady who closes an email or ends a telephone/skype session (after 1 or 2 month's or less?) with something like "I kiss you HiTech"....what do you say to her (being "fair" to all the other ladies)?


GOB

[ambach123]

Hi Tech, thanks for a very good post.

You state that the parties either click or don't click in the first fifteen minutes, and nothing changes after that.

I would like to know if that is a universal experience.

From what I have read, after the first date, President Obama asked Michelle for a second date three times and he was rejected all the three times, but he did not give up. Of course FSU may be a different situation.

[myrddin]

I grapple with WOVO and WMVM. There is a ton of information here in archives but no clear cut answer, which is better.

Possibly because there actually is no clear cut answer.  It's different for different people and you have to understand yourself and what you want to make the choice.  I've done both, and VM is almost unbearably stressful for me but felt necessary until I could settle on one to visit the next time.


I've been searching for an old post by Gator that summarized the disadvantages of each method very well.  I remember it from about a year ago and thought "this needs to be saved!" before I completely failed to save it.... I just can't find it now (and I doubt I could do as good a job as he did!)

[Sculpto]

You state that the parties either click or don't click in the first fifteen minutes, and nothing changes after that.

I really disagree with this idea.  It has happened on more than one occasion in my life that someone I thought I was not attracted to later on after knowing them for a while shone in a different light.  HOWEVER.. that is not usefull when crossing oceans to date and hopefully find a wife.

[ambach123]

I have four potential women that I have been communicating wit in Ekaterinburg. I have talked to them on the phone as well. There is another one but she does not speak any English. These four can communicate in English.

For a WMVM, are four enough?

How should I arrange the dates? Since I have never done WMVM before. Should I even meet with the non English speaking woman. I don't know any interpreters in Ekatrinburg.

[Sculpto]

Ambach.. i hope you are approaching things differently in your communications.. otherwise.. your results will be the same.

[groovlstk]

How should I arrange the dates? Since I have never done WMVM before. Should I even meet with the non English speaking woman. I don't know any interpreters in Ekatrinburg.

One thing I would NOT do if I were you is to discuss marriage, prenups, and career prospects in the US w/the women you're meeting in person for the first time.

[HiTech]

I am also curious about your opinion concerning a "WMVM" FSU lady who might insist on meeting you at the airport or trying to arrange a hotel/tour/excursion for the both of you?

GOB
You ask 2 very different questions, Hotel /apartment / airport is one question, this involves your travel and over all stay, On my write one first trip I let her do some of this for me, even on a WO visit , if I were to do this again, I would not allow it. It sets up a condition that makes it more difficult to end the relationship quickly. As an example she has the apartment contact that you must then negotiate threw her. This puts more stress in the early moments of a first time meeting. It also just sets you up in a very dependent roll, (even more than just being together on her territory) that is very different then how things will be later.
On a write many I would not even consider it.

As a side note, if a woman ever says she wishes to use her own friend as an interpreter, do NOT let it happen. Most times you will then be hearing and she will be hearing more of what the friends thinks than your or her words. It also very quickly can leave you out of the conversation when the Friends are just discussing something.

The 2nd question regarding an excursion, it would depend on what type, if she wanted to set something up for a 6 hour adventure that I thought would be fun, I would go along with it. But in general on my WMVM trip I planed on only an hour meeting with the ability to lengthen that meeting if we were both having fun.

Also a possible down fall of a VM trip is that I believe many men when writing many fall into the trap of "Shopping" I.E. thinking the next one could be better, I believe this can be a very big trap for some people, and they End up never building a relationship.

HiTech

[HiTech]

I have four potential women that I have been communicating wit in Ekaterinburg. I have talked to them on the phone as well. There is another one but she does not speak any English. These four can communicate in English.

For a WMVM, are four enough?

How should I arrange the dates? Since I have never done WMVM before. Should I even meet with the non English speaking woman. I don't know any interpreters in Ekatrinburg.

First do you know when you will be traveling? Arranging dates before you have tickets is not needed.

2nd how many depends on how long, just like anything you need a back up plan, When I met Alyona I had 6 lined up via email (2 never responded when I was incontry so I assumed they were just agency workers), plus magazine adds. I met woman from Sat - Tuesday and was Leaving on Sunday. Alyona was my last meeting , had we not clicked I was ready to implement my back up plan, which was to head to Nikolaev to meet some friends who I know there, and possible meet a few woman from agencies, but there was not enough time left to meet a woman for enough time to begin to know her.
Also with only 4 I would sugest finding more that you think are atractive and interesting profile and the week before you leave simply write them a letter (..  Iam ..... I will be ariving in ... and am interested in meeting your for dinner/coffie / what ever).

All I did was have my first 2 meetings Aranged and schedualed the rest when I was in Kharkov. I simple asked via email can you meet me on xx day?

[GoodOlBoy]

On my write one first trip I let her do some of this for me, even on a WO visit , if I were to do this again, I would not allow it. It sets up a condition that makes it more difficult to end the relationship quickly. As an example she has the apartment contact that you must then negotiate threw her.

I hear what you are saying HiTech.

Remember the guy that went to the Ukraine to meet a lady and she use to lock him in his apartment every night and he had no key and no way to get out of the room until the next morning (when she came to let him out)?

If I remember his story correctly, this insanity went on for several days until he finally broke it off with her.

I can't find his post (he has since dissappeared of the RWD radar screen), but it is a VERY good example of what you are saying.


GOB

[MatryoshkaMan]

Despite all my "womanizing" in the past couple of weeks (as documented in another thread) I am sliding down the slippery slope once again into WOVOdom. I am getting quite taken by one fine lady in Novosibirsk. I am going to keep a few others on the slow-cooker but right now I am starting to focus on one lady who is saying all the right things (haven't I ben through this before?) but this time it feels a lot different than the 2 month disaster from Tomsk. Funny thing, 2 ladies from the same part of the world but so different! Man am I glad how things have turned out for the better for me (so far of course). Funny thing is I really wanted to visit Tomsk but now I can go there on a day trip while being based in Novo.

[Gator]

Despite all my "womanizing" in the past couple of weeks (as documented in another thread) I am sliding down the slippery slope once again into WOVOdom. I am getting quite taken by one fine lady in Novosibirsk. I am going to keep a few others on the slow-cooker but right now I am starting to focus on one lady who is saying all the right things (haven't I ben through this before?) but this time it feels a lot different than the 2 month disaster from Tomsk. Funny thing, 2 ladies from the same part of the world but so different! Man am I glad how things have turned out for the better for me (so far of course). Funny thing is I really wanted to visit Tomsk but now I can go there on a day trip while being based in Novo.

[Gator]

Whoops!

Splendid news. 

Rather than going to Tomsk, I would suggest that you set something up with a Moscow woman in Moscow.  You can meet her either going over or returning.  You may need a layover just because of flight schedules, and a layover coming over is good for acclimating before flying to Novo.

Anything in Moscow should be viewed as a backup, not an alternative.  If all goes well with Ms. Novo, you can change your flight and stay another day or so.

As another backup, have the telephone number for agencies in Novo.  They can arrange meetings with "strangers" in less than 24 hours.