Hitting the limit to how many women I can juggle at once!

[SMS60]

I/O,


  Confused by your post and recent posts. Hope everything is okay for you?

Makkin

Sheesh. I feel better. I was scratching my head thinking I was the only one who could not put 2 and 2 together.

[Gator]

I don't go to Russian forums for this very reason: to avoid vulgarity.  

Do tell.  It can get tedious around here at times, and a little spice is welcome.  OTOH, if you are like my wife, you do not want to hear nor read vulgar Russian words, and the last thing you would do is to repeat them.

I realize this forum is for AM, not RW.  

WRONG!

[Blues Fairy]

It can get tedious around here at times, and a little spice is welcome.  OTOH, if you are like my wife, you do not want to hear nor read vulgar Russian words, and the last thing you would do is to repeat them.

You mistake me; I meant vulgarity as in: tastelessness, cynical behavior, grossness; not as in using vulgar language.

Bragging about the number of women/men one is chatting with is rather poor taste, in my opinion. 

[IAmZon]

Of course it is in bad taste BF ... but then again it is CHATTING, nothing more. 

For one to think it is more - indeed to become exhausted, obsessed, or otherwise gratified - says more about the poster (negatively I am sorry to say) than about the women with whom the poster is having a hard time juggling.

I would STRONGLY suggest to such a soft touch that RW are at the opposite end of the food chain. 

Of all the women in the world, RW tend to be the most challenging for many many reasons.   And so often we see posts like this one ( there are many).  It so often seems like a mismatch to me.

[I/O]

Makin

Very OK thankyou. A wondering useless post fits with wondering posts. This guy is dabbling around with no clue as to what he is dealing with and it is the age old story, until he gets his butt into a given area, spends time there, meets some real people and develops some actual understanding, he won't decipher Vladimir from Victoria. He is "having fun" chatting with who knows how many and for the most part they will be simply yanking his chain.

I am right with B/F and Olga .

I/O

[GregfromGa]

I still get a little nervous walking down Khreshatic with my wife of almost 6 years. I keep thinking I'm going to run straight into one of the few others that I went out with a time or three. I've read where guys are trying to train in girls from all over Ukraine to meet in Kiev for a few days. I think if you have a month then you might be able to pull some of that off. What girl thinks you only came to Kiev to take her to eat at Marche or The DiVinci Fish Club for one date?

How does one explain to a girl that he has some other business to do in Kiev or wherever?

[Makkin]

I/O,

  Okay good to hear everything is okay. My mistake for not understanding and all.

   Yes I understand what you mean about things. BTW.... My daughter is just back from Perth as she visited the grandparents and relatives. Her mother is from Perth. You can guess what she brought me......A hat that says Australia...lol.


Makkin

[Boethius]

Believe me, none of these women are so stupid that they assume you are only visiting one an initial meeting.  If a woman asks, tell her the truth.  It all comes out eventually anyway.

I/O, I really liked your post.  I think you will have a long and, I hope, a happy, marriage .

[Andreas]

Singles.ru, huh? I see they have more than 640 Russian girls living in Norway under the age of 25. Thanks for the tip *and nobody ever saw him again*.

[Sculpto]

How does one explain to a girl that he has some other business to do in Kiev or wherever?

If you aren't using marriage agency sites its easy.  "I have business in Kiev" and done.  They are very unlikely to ask for details.

On the other hand, if you are bringing someone in from elsewhere.. I think there is an obligation to spend more than a meal with them.  Even if it isn't a love match, what harm is there in getting to know a lady and becoming friends?  She could prove to be a great ally later on.

[Mir]

I/O

Buddy, "Up to the minute" I'm living with 4 different women in Omsk, 1=24, 1=27, 1=48, 1=71. Ya know something? Every single one of them, without exception would happily hand your arse to you in a heartbeat. I guess it might be prudent to mention, 1 is my sister in law, 1 is my mother in law, 1 is my mother and 1 is my wife

Would have been less confusing if you had listed the women in the same order as their ages.

I guess 24= sis in L, 27=Wifey, 48=MIL, 71=Mama
I am sure it is not: 24=sis in L, 27=MIL, 48=Mama and 71=Zhena

[groovlstk]

Hey maroon.  If you want to respond to my post thats fine but do it with some civility, oh wait, I forgot, that is impossible for you.  So.. here you go dimwit.. here is your look in the mirror.. you get what you give.

Sculpto, you may not like Kuna's tone but his message is important. The Hill of Little White Lies is indeed a slippery slope once you've made your way to the top. If it's easy to lie about meeting other women, what comes next?

FWIW, my wife and I reminisce a lot about our first meeting, it's one of our most treasured memories. I hate to think how the memory would be tainted for me if I'd lied to my wife about my reasons for visiting (not to mention how those trips down memory lane together would be lined with minefields).

[GQBlues]

If you aren't using marriage agency sites its easy.  "I have business in Kiev" and done.  They are very unlikely to ask for details.

Sculpto-

I hope the message of being ‘honest’ about other women/date didn’t get lost in this recent exchange.

Speaking from my personal experience, the women I met my first trip knew I was meeting other women. Sure some of them didn’t like the idea but I would much rather be in that position than to resort to any other way.

One woman in particular, PYT from Moscow, made me bear having to hear her wrath the entire time we spent with one another about me being a WMVM. According to her, this is why she doesn’t like this whole Mob/International dating biz. She felt it was a meat market and men should understand why women would feel so disposable when men (*I*) would do something like this. Preached to me how this is not fair to the women, blah, blah, blah…

The whole time I was with her, I gave her 2 opportunities to come clean. She never did.

"..are you saying that I am the only one you correspond with and that you haven't met or seen any other?..."
 
What she didn’t know was that I knew she met an AM 3 weeks before I came, an Italian (maybe Spaniard ~ don’t remember) just 4 days before my arrival.

How I came to this info was purely accidental. AM was writing a T/R and he started describing this particular woman. My spidey sense told me to send him a PM and soon enough we changed email and pics ~ same gal. When I posted in his T/R, we both received a PM from the European guy, and then there were 3….

Stay true…anything else is simply noise.

[JR]

Ah what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

There is a fine line between lying and witholding the truth. I believe to offer too much truth is to sell the rope you will be hanged with. But I absolutely believe you must tell about visiting other women if you are going that route. I told my ex and paid a dear price throughout the years but nothing compared to what it would have been had I been anything less than completely honest upfront and honest about it.

[Sculpto]

I only did WOVO.  Any ladies I had as backup I told I was visiting Moscow on business possibility exploration and IF I had time I would contact them.  I did not contact them because there was no need to, and, after the trip wrote to them apologizing for not calling.  I remained friends with them and recently introduced one of them to a member of this forum because I think they would be a good match.  He might tell us about it at some point if it goes well. 

It is exactly for the reason that GQ mentioned that I did things the way I did.  No woman wants to know they are part of a lineup or are second or third choice.  How do you expect them to take you seriously if they know that?  It just isn't any of their business frankly.  And, it doesn't matter if they are dating or meeting other men.  Until there is a deep connection and a commitment everyone is free to do as they wish, and that is exactly how it should be.

The other thing is.. if you are doing WOVO and it doesn't work out.. but you have told your backups that you are coming to visit a woman and if it doesn't work out you will call.. they are going to wonder why and it is going to reflect negatively on you.  They are going to wonder "why she didn't like him" no matter what you say the reasons are. 

Now, the exception is if you are WMVM.. in that case I would not allow getting too close in correspondence and full disclosure in advance would be the obvious choice, but, I would still advise being very discreet about it. 

I once heard about a guy who met 30+ women in three days.. basically holding interviews in an agency office.  How would you feel if you were one of the ladies?  Would you take the man seriously?  He did find one that did.. married her.. and 2 years after arrival.. guess what she did?

Will I ever tell my "A" that I had backups?  Absolutely not.  What I did tell her, before the first trip, that if it doesn't work out between me and her, that 1. she could not leave me to the wolves in Moscow, and 2. that if it didn't work out she should try and help me meet some other women.  Fortunately neither scenario happened, but, she agreed to both those requests before I even bought a ticket.  If we hadn't connected I am sure she would not have abandoned me in Moscow, though, I have no idea if she would have introduced me to anyone, I kind of doubt it.

If you are dating locally, do you tell your "1st date" "oh, by the way, I am seeing six other girls at the same time I am taking you out for dinner and sleeping with two of them?  No, it is none of her business.. if the relationship progresses to the point of discussing exclusivity.. thats when things come out.  "Well, I have been seeing some other women, but, I like you the best and i have ended those relationships because I want to be exclusive with you"

When I was dating actively I assumed anyone I went out with the first time was dating others and probably sleeping with someone.  To assume any different when going to the FSU would be a big mistake.

Discretion when dating multiple women is respect.  Putting women into a "lineup" is a sure way to failure, IMO. 

[MatryoshkaMan]

Hey! My tread got hi-jacked! 
I won't have these problems. I am doing a wovo and will have zero back-up plan. Call it crazy but that's what I am going to do! I take the ultimate gamble! I am hoping that it will all work out, but if not I will come home, pick myself off the ground, dust myself off and give it another shot.

[GQBlues]

Sculpto-

 First off, I didn’t put anyone in a line up. I simply told them what I aimed to do and that it was their choice to make their own judgment in what they wanted to do. You OTOH, purposely told your girl she’s the only one with the exception of the 2 or 3 numbers on your hip pocket – just in case.

You believe that’s the more respectable way, then it’s all good with me. I am aware your way is the standard advice men give to newbies thus likely to be popular with the majority ~ based on that perspective, I revel even higher for being in the minority. I'll happily agree to disagree with you on that point.

I was a WMVM with the caveat that all I wanted to do was to keep things in a ‘friendly’ state until we all had the opportunity to meet in person and are in a much better state to determine if there will be reasons to continue on…they decide, I decide, we decide.

Normal attitude to local dating do not have the same implications as writing to women listed on marriage-centered sites or agencies. I didn’t always have marriage in mind everytime I dated someone at home. Not sure why you keep comparing these two and saying they’re one and the same.

Lastly, finger-walking agency catalogs is not WMVM, at least not in my book.

What it all boils down to is finding the lesser evil between the choice of marrying the Devil you know or marrying the Devil you don’t.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto-

 First off, I didn’t put anyone in a line up. I simply told them what I aimed to do and that it was their choice to make their own judgment in what they wanted to do. You OTOH, purposely told your girl she’s the only one with the exception of the 2 or 3 numbers on your hip pocket – just in case.

You believe that’s the more respectable way, then it’s all good with me. I am aware your way is the standard advice men give to newbies thus likely to be popular with the majority ~ based on that perspective, I revel even higher for being in the minority. I'll happily agree to disagree with you on that point.

I was a WMVM with the caveat that all I wanted to do was to keep things in a ‘friendly’ state until we all had the opportunity to meet in person and are in a much better state to determine if there will be reasons to continue on…they decide, I decide, we decide.

Normal attitude to local dating do not have the same implications as writing to women listed on marriage-centered sites or agencies. I didn’t always have marriage in mind everytime I dated someone at home. Not sure why you keep comparing these two and saying they’re one and the same.

Lastly, finger-walking agency catalogs is not WMVM, at least not in my book.

What it all boils down to is finding the lesser evil between the choice of marrying the Devil you know or marrying the Devil you don’t.

GQ.. than you are one of the good men which always shows anyway in how you post.  I do not believe that many men who do WMVM take the same approach. 

My lady and I had established a romantic online correspondence.  It went farther than I thought was wise.. but.. things happen.  But, I was also experienced enough in online dating to know that the chances she was only talking to me were small.  As it turned out, I was correct.  We both confessed to what was really going on before we met.  What follows is the conversation as best as I can remember it, paraphrased and leaving out the usual "accent vernacular" I often use...

She started the conversation and directly asked me what was up before we met.  She wanted to know who else I had been talking to and specifically if there was anyone else I had been serious about.  The truthful answer was there was one other girl I liked almost as much as her that lived in Ukraine.  (she is still a friend and has given great advice about "A")  We talked almost as frequently as I did with "A", she was beautiful and smart and all that, but, I never felt the online chemistry with her the same way.. and.. that girl had a line of guys visiting her and she always rejected them and felt she herself was too picky and would never find a man that could satisfy her.  So, when push came to shove and I had to decide who I had a better chance of matching with.. I chose "A".  She liked the answer.  I also told her there were some other more casual online friends, some in Moscow, that I talked to infrequently, which was the truth.  She asked if I wanted to meet any of the Moscow girls.. I said why would I? I was happy with her!  She liked all I had to say.  then, she told me a man from Atlanta had visited her 3 weeks prior to my first visit.  I was REALLY surprised.    She said she wasn't very interested in him, but, he had insisted on coming.  She showed him around for a few days, but, nothing happened and that she had been thinking about me the whole time.  She introduced him to some of her friends and they had all agreed something was "off" about him and they got him drunk to see how he would act and he became the perfect example of "Stupid American" in their eyes.  She admitted she expected the same, "Stupid American", from me and was really happy when I passed the "drunk test".  There was also a guy in Sweden, who she was still friends with, but he knew about me and had wished us the best.  She also told me that before I had come, even when the online contacts had moved to a romantic phase, that she never considered me anything more than her best online friend because I was just words on a screen and a moving picture in a cam window  It wasn't until she saw me in the airport the first time that she knew that all the words on the internet were not for nothing. 

A far more difficult conversation was when she asked me why I never got married before.  I really got the third degree over that. 

On the topic of the comparison of local dating and dating via marriage agencies.. For several years after my last serious relationship but before my first trip to the FSU I didn't date a lot, but, when I did it was almost exclusively via online sources and I only dated women who either specifically stated in their profiles they were looking to get married or who responded in the positive to the question which was one of the first I would ask.  In that regard, I do not think my experiences were very different despite the distance.  I only met one woman at a time and had long since stopped serial monogamy or doing juggling acts.

I would also point out that my success in the FSU came AFTER I stopped using agencies.  Well... lets wait a couple years before we totally declare it a success.. but.. as time is passing and her mood improving almost daily.. I feel confident that sticking with her through her troubles was not only the right thing to do, but, has proven to her she can really believe in me.  She once said to me.. "I am ready to open my heart to you, to give you everything".  Her actions at the time were not congruent, in my mind, with her words, but, she was grieving for her Father at the time.  As time and events have progressed, her actions, from so far away, have not only proven her words to be true, but, have gone above and beyond what I had expected or hoped for.  I just wish she was here already.  Got the I-797C 3 weeks ago so there is still some waiting ahead. 

For me the real test will be when we go to visit my adopted family in Southern Mexico.  I have given material and educational support to this family for over 20 years.  I once tried to get them to stop cooking with firewood, but, "food doesn't taste as good when cooked on gas", and, the gas stove doesn't warm the soul.  I am the ONLY man that has ever been allowed to make tortillas in that kitchen and it is by going into that kitchen, with all the smoke, and dirt floor, and drafty walls letting the cold mountain air in, I earned the trust and love of that family.  "A" knows about this, and knows we will be going there and knows they are extremely poor.  Will she react with compassion?  Will she react with disgust?  Will she eat her beans with a corner of a tortilla like they do and I will, or, will she freak out when she realizes there are no forks?  She is a woman who has demanded that I respect her culture, will she be able to give the same respect when she is a visitor and experiencing something that is completely outside of her realm of experience. 

This photo below is typical of the kind of kitchen I am talking about, except this one is a bit larger and well lit.  Notice how the tortillas are being cooked.  Anyway.. sorry I rambled..

[mies]

to seriouslyjaded I am 38 but feel 20 again!

oh yeah... why not 15-16? same immaturity
or maybe midlife reevaluation of goals..

Now its FUN TIME!

this statement explains a bunch...

[GQBlues]

Well Sculpto, here's my ramble back at you...

Not sure why a lot of posts towards you seem to carry an edge about it. Justifiably or not, it's really not important to me. I do appreciate you taking the time to show some history in your relations with your girl.

So many of things surrounding this search is totally subjective. My way is no more advisable than your way or anyone else's. I wouldn't advocate or promote what I did to anyone. Heck, I wouldn't advocate anyone to marry out of their culture despite my satisfaction I get married to my wife. The many things that endeared me to her were not because she's Russian, but because she's a wonderful human being. A woman in love will do what is natural for her to do regardless of her nationality.

As for success, I don't put too much stock into that. I married a woman who happens to be Russian. We have daily challenges, we deal with it. When there are joys to be had, we share it. It's life and living. Just like any other couples whether they be Americans, Russians, Chinese, etc...IMHO, being married to a Russian woman does not make one an expert on all things Russian, marriage, Russian culture, the chase, or more specifically, the art of dating a Russian woman. There's not much 'dating' involved when you are writing to a woman listed on a marriage agency, you think? It's anything but dating...

I will be cautious giving married men the term 'successful' as an end means. Today's success could easily turn into tomorrow's failures.

Expert? An oxymoron. How can anyone doing one thing, one time an expert? Unless there's a man out there who marries Russian women with great proficiency and frequency, maybe. But then doesn't that become an oxymoron in itself?

While I respect and endear my wife's culture, she must likewise afford me the same. Our home is not Russified and my wife wouldn't have it any other way. She used to tell me how if our lives were in Russia as opposed to the US, she knows that I will not impose my customary way of life as an American in Russia. If I respected her enough not to expect that from her, then why the double standard? We strike the balance and do away with the lesser, sometimes useless, way of living.

Haven't read your Mexico thread. From what you wrote above, it appears much will reveal itself for both of you. I hope it will be as you wished it to be. No matter what happens, have a great time.

As for the thread, why juggle when you don't really have to?

[Sculpto]

Well Sculpto, here's my ramble back at you...

Not sure why a lot of posts towards you seem to carry an edge about it. Justifiably or not, it's really not important to me. I do appreciate you taking the time to show some history in your relations with your girl.

I think I present a view of things that is radically different than what many people on this forum have experienced in their lives.  My life HAS been radically different.  How many people do you know that speak passable Mayan?  Nevertheless, I think in some cases there is a certain wish for a lot of patting on the back and and viewing the world in very concrete terms.  I bust that up and present things that are too far outside of what most people consider normal.  That is the life of the artist.  Most of the time it doesn't bother me, but, it got to me today because I am in pain and fed up with it. 

So many of things surrounding this search is totally subjective.

Wow.. say that about a thousand times.  There are so many different ways.. probably about as many different ways as there are people.  What works for one will fail miserably for the next and vice versa.  When I was in Odessa.. I met a couple.. they met in Alaska.. she was on work travel.. he was working the summer at a fish cannery.. never saw a couple more in love.. he went to live there.. teaching English.  She told me.. forget the internet.. just come and live here for a while and you will find the right girl for you.  I wish I could have!  But, I think I did pretty good anyway.  That is why I have often advocated for those who are able.. to take at least a month if not longer.. go study Russian.. ANYWHERE.. life will hand "you" the right woman for "you" in such a circumstance.. what and how you make it life long is up to the individual after that.  One thing i have learned in my travels.. there are beautiful women, good and bad, everywhere you go.

I will be cautious giving married men the term 'successful' as an end means. Today's success could easily turn into tomorrow's failures.

As it could for any marriage anywhere in the world.

Expert? An oxymoron. How can anyone doing one thing, one time an expert? Unless there's a man out there who marries Russian women with great proficiency and frequency, maybe. But then doesn't that become an oxymoron in itself?

well said.  the only thing anyone is really an expert in is their own life and even sometimes people miss that by a long ways.

While I respect and endear my wife's culture, she must likewise afford me the same. Our home is not Russified and my wife wouldn't have it any other way. She used to tell me how if our lives were in Russia as opposed to the US, she knows that I will not impose my customary way of life as an American in Russia. If I respected her enough not to expect that from her, then why the double standard? We strike the balance and do away with the lesser, sometimes useless, way of living.

This is great and the right attitude.  When I was last in Moscow "A" and I got into a very intense discussion about her being Russian and Armenian and a long lecture that I needed to know more about it, especially the Armenian stuff because that culture is in some ways dominant in her personality.  She made a really big deal about it, almost to the point of being annoying.  Then, I said simply.. what do you know about Jewish culture?  You say all kinds of things about America in ridicule, but, you don't seem to understand I am Jewish, if not at all by religion, totally by culture and it is a big part of my paranoias and "issues" as well as what makes me a thoughtful and question authority kind of person..  She thought about it for a minute and then said, "I nothing know, only one time I went in house of family, I think they very conservative, they were good with me, I will to read". 

Haven't read your Mexico thread. From what you wrote above, it appears much will reveal itself for both of you. I hope it will be as you wished it to be. No matter what happens, have a great time.

I will have a great time no matter what.  If the relationship falls apart, which I doubt it will, I will be with friends and those I consider as family.  Plus, the waterfalls have a way of making all problems seem very small.  32 days together 24/7 will reveal a lot, no matter where it takes place.  Honestly, the only thing I am really worried about is getting her arse out of bed early on travel days.. we have four road trips of 10-12 hours.. I do not want to drive at night at all.. too dangerous. 

As for the thread, why juggle when you don't really have to?

Thats why I went WOVO.  once I had settled my mind on "A" I let the Ukrianian girl I was serious about know that I would not be coming to see her and why.  She understood and was disappointed but not so much that she got weird.  But, after what happened in Kherson, I also could not allow myself even a small chance that I would be stuck alone in a crummy apartment in a place where I don't speak the language during cold weather.  I knew of three women in Moscow that I had had short correspondences with, so I sent them that short note saying I would be there but with unknown availability.. and I sent out six other letters to women I had never corresponded with saying the same.  Of the three, two responded saying if THEY had time and it worked out that I had time they would meet me for a chai.. of the six others.. four responded with the exact same comment.  Of the six total that responded.. I became online friends with three.  All three asked me upon return if I met any girls while I was there.  I told them the truth and they were all happy for me and wished me well.  Two asked if I knew any good men.

So, i didn't juggle anything.. and made friends.  I am 100% sure if I had told the backups.. that they were backups.. not one would have agreed to anything or even responded. 

[BrightDawn]

Well, I don't know about juggling... I have 2 ladies from EM that both appear to be very interested in me. One has closed her profile and told me she only wishes to talk to me. I'm not sure what is the best way to handle this. I don't like the idea of leading 2 woman to fall in love. I've been in online relationships in Second Life for 2 years. You don't have to meet someone to fall in love with them. Ah well, rambling ... I wish I was over there.

[JR]

Well, I don't know about juggling... I have 2 ladies from EM that both appear to be very interested in me. One has closed her profile and told me she only wishes to talk to me. I'm not sure what is the best way to handle this. I don't like the idea of leading 2 woman to fall in love. I've been in online relationships in Second Life for 2 years. You don't have to meet someone to fall in love with them. Ah well, rambling ... I wish I was over there.

Welcome to the board BD. You are not responsible for what others do unless you are misleading them. If a woman closes or hides her profile because she wants to communicate only with you that is her choice. If you aren't there yet be honest with her.

[groovlstk]

I've been in online relationships in Second Life for 2 years. You don't have to meet someone to fall in love with them.

That's not love, it's fantasy.

[BrightDawn]

I don't want to mislead her. I'm not sure it serves to even bring it up at this point as it is fairly early (exchanged 5 emails). I would have thought she would keep her options open given the small percentage of men that actually follow through.