Life Changes

[Muddy]

Spoke to my ex fiancee Natalia this weekend.

Billy, did you call her or did she call you?

[BillyB]

Billy, did you call her or did she call you?

I called her.

[BillyB]

When I arrived in Kiev, I was picked up by Alex, the apartment manager of an American owned Kiev apartment rental company. My apartment was located less than a minute away from Independence square, the place the Orange Revolution took place. It is in the center of Kiev.

After talking to Alex for an hour and him learning my purpose of my visit among other things about me, he told me he's been in this business a long time and in tourism. He's learned to get into the minds of his customers and learn their wants, desires, and who they are inside. He's determined I'm a sincere man and says I'm one of the best men he's met out of all he's come across that's visiting Kiev. He tells me if it doesn't work out with the girl I'm visiting and if I go to an agency, he'll give me a good recommendation. If agencies know you're a good man and you pick a gold digger to date, they will advise against it and help you pick a good woman. If they don't know you and you just walk in, they don't care who you pick.

 Maybe some of you believe I belong with cream of the crop men that visit the FSU. Maybe you don't want to believe. What's more important than what you want to believe about me is that you should be concerned on how your conduct and words come across to other people. People do notice and react differently towards you based on how you act. Most everything you know in life is learned from another man, it's how you put it together that makes the man you are. Garbage in, garbage out. Don't put garbage in your head. If you find the only people you're attracting in life is foul mouthed and undisciplined, you need to change your ways in order to attract better people.

 I've seen foreign men in the FSU talk to the lady they're with in an unpleasant way but they aren't reading her face well enough to understand they're turning her off and thus they don't make adjustments. They may never learn why they're turning off women. Some men are poorly dressed and have bad manners. FSU women will take notice of that too. I once seen an American and two Germans smoking in Tashkent's airport ignoring the no smoking signs and and throwing their cigarette butts on the floor. If they're looking for a quality woman, they have an uphill battle. Their conduct is poor and they ar representitives of their country.

 Although O wasn't in Kiev, she said she be there shortly. It didn't happen and she was still with her parents. When I called her and asked why she isn't in Kiev yet, she tells me her parents don't want her to marry a man other than a Ukrainian or Russian man. After a few more questions I asked her who's whispering to her. She tells me it's her sister and she's helping her talk English to answer my questions. I tell her I know she speaks good enough English and I want to hear what she has to say, not her sister. She tells her older sister to leave the room. She then tells me she wants what her parents want but I don't believe her. We had so many good conversations on the phone and I know she wanted to meet me.

We talk some more and say we should at least meet as friends but I'm not going to put much of a fight for her. She doesn't have the support of her family and she's in a vulnerable situation since she lost her job and now need their financial support. A few days later I notice her profile at bride.ru comes down. I believe her story but there's a chance she found a local boyfriend before I arrived and is not searching for one at the moment.

 I've never had to do a backup plan but I'm ready. Based on some trip reports, some guys will get depressed and spend the rest of their trip in their flat. Other guys will just be a tourist. Let's face the facts. We come here to find a woman and that's what I'll do instead of sitting in my apartment depressed or put on a happy face pretending to enjoy the tourist attractions.

 A few posts disappeared from this thread. I understand because of some bickering but I remember Muddy had a question why I didn't just bring my ex fiancee over and see if she could adapt in 3 months and if she couldn't adjust, just send her back.

 I've spent a lot of time with Natalia, spent money on an attorney to get her a visa after the failed interview, spent time getting my Congressman in on my side. I've spent money taking Natalia to a few trips around the FSU and like some members here, we were fortunate to have met another RWD member in St. Petersburg.

 I've got more invested and more reasons than most people to take it to the finish line but that would be selfish of me.

 We've talked many times on how life is here and how she'd feel. She said she'd miss her family and probably cry. That's normal and to be expected. I have no problem bringing her here based on that but what she went through was beyond her control and she had to be hospitalized. She isn't prepared mentally. I'm not going to give her a guilt trip of all I've done for her to get her here, I'm not going to promise her she'd adjust fine when I don't have full control on what makes her happy, and I'm not interested in introducing a woman who may be an emotional wreck when she gets here to my family and friends. Me living in Uzbekistan is not an option either. If I see good signs that she's ready for this, I can change my mind. I know how she is when she's happy and that's the woman I want to marry.

[GQBlues]

Hey BillyB-

I always admired your passion and the strength in your conviction. Reading this thread hasn't changed that opinion about you one iota. However, you picqued my curiosity when I read the last segment of your recent post.

The bolded part....

....<snip> I'm not going to give her a guilt trip of all I've done for her to get her here, I'm not going to promise her she'd adjust fine when I don't have full control on what makes her happy, and I'm not interested in introducing a woman who may be an emotional wreck when she gets here to my family and friends. Me living in Uzbekistan is not an option either. If I see good signs that she's ready for this, I can change my mind. I know how she is when she's happy and that's the woman I want to marry.

...that sort of threw me for a loop. The proverbial 'what-ifs' started blazing through my mind considering the changed (new) phase of your pursuit.

Do you mind elaborating on that a bit? Was that simply a statement of your mindset back then, and has changed now (a recollection of what you were feeling then); or is this still an open option for you regardless of what/who you run into in your latest quest?

[JR]

I like your style Billy. I called one lady after I found her phone number on a job web-site by googling her email address. She was impressed that I did that and said she thought I was pretty smart. I had no permission to call her before hand but I always feel I should do what I want as long as I don't hurt anyone and let the other person respond in kind.

And you are absolutley right about being aware of how you are percieved. People are making judgements all the time, especially when they are getting to know you.

[Hub]

Billy, I couldn't believe what I read in this.  Didn't you say several times above that it was foolish of a man to put all his eggs in one basket and do the VO trick?  Then you 'up and did it'?

What chance is there for rational procedures if a very experienced and logical man such as yourself keeps falling into these pits.

I almost get sick in my stomach each time I read one of these stories where a guy arrives to finally meet 'the one' and she craps out on him for one reason or another.  I certainly didn't think you would be one to fall into this trap.

[Daveman]

Billy, I couldn't believe what I read in this.  Didn't you say several times above that it was foolish of a man to put all his eggs in one basket and do the VO trick?  Then you 'up and did it'?

What chance is there for rational procedures if a very experienced and logical man such as yourself keeps falling into these pits.

I almost get sick in my stomach each time I read one of these stories where a guy arrives to finally meet 'the one' and she craps out on him for one reason or another.  I certainly didn't think you would be one to fall into this trap.

VO with a contingency plan is hardly "all eggs in one basket"... it's the ones going over without any clue as to what they'll do other than sit in the flat who are blowing the trips, IMO. 

[Ade]

Billy, I couldn't believe what I read in this.  Didn't you say several times above that it was foolish of a man to put all his eggs in one basket and do the VO trick?  Then you 'up and did it'?

What chance is there for rational procedures if a very experienced and logical man such as yourself keeps falling into these pits.

I almost get sick in my stomach each time I read one of these stories where a guy arrives to finally meet 'the one' and she craps out on him for one reason or another.  I certainly didn't think you would be one to fall into this trap.

Hmm.... and then there are those that WMVM spending years and dozens upon dozens of trips meeting many hundreds of women and never find the right woman (Mr Av8or, I've met 500+ women although not the right one but it's "working" for me )

You only need to meet one, the right one.

[Chillidog]

People do notice and react differently towards you based on how you act. Most everything you know in life is learned from another man, it's how you put it together that makes the man you are. Garbage in, garbage out. Don't put garbage in your head. If you find the only people you're attracting in life is foul mouthed and undisciplined, you need to change your ways in order to attract better people.

 Their conduct is poor and they ar representitives of their country.

I am not going to spout out any NEW wisdom, because as you can see "Billy" has already pointed it out, but crist!!! why the heck do so mnay of us "Western Men" just do not know "common sense etiquette" as Billy points out. I feel it is a "self centered nature" we have and thik the world revolves around us. The littlest sign can make a woman (western/fsu) begin to think let alone start running the other way.

Be gentleman, treat the woman with respect, open doors, help her put her coat on, reach and hold her hand as she exits a car/bus/train, and most of all be respective to thier culture and for this you do not need years of study just common sense.

I agree with SJ and Daveman, a VO trip does not imply a "waste" of time if the "one" you wnt to meet does not pan out.  I think the educated/experinced man who does the VO trip has put in the homework to feel confident that this trip will be a success or he would not take this typw of trip and also at the same time understands that this first meeting can fail and has a reasonable plan to make the best of his time if this scenerio happens.

[BillyB]

The bolded part....

...that sort of threw me for a loop. The proverbial 'what-ifs' started blazing through my mind considering the changed (new) phase of your pursuit.

Do you mind elaborating on that a bit? Was that simply a statement of your mindset back then, and has changed now (a recollection of what you were feeling then); or is this still an open option for you regardless of what/who you run into in your latest quest?

Hi Matt,

Natalia is a beautiful woman and her character on the inside is even better than the outside. There's so many great things I can say about her and if I feel I'm not taking a fish out of water, I would be happy to marry her. Also another factor is that I'm being pulled in another direction from another woman which I'll talk about later in this thread. As long as I have good options, I'm open to them all.

[BillyB]

Billy, I couldn't believe what I read in this.  Didn't you say several times above that it was foolish of a man to put all his eggs in one basket and do the VO trick?  Then you 'up and did it'?

What chance is there for rational procedures if a very experienced and logical man such as yourself keeps falling into these pits.

I almost get sick in my stomach each time I read one of these stories where a guy arrives to finally meet 'the one' and she craps out on him for one reason or another.  I certainly didn't think you would be one to fall into this trap.

Hub, yes it's foolish for men to do the VO trick. Mainly because most men don't prepare for failure. Men fail more often than not doing a VO. But if a guy prepares, he won't miss a beat if the woman doesn't show up or if there's no compatibility after a few dates with her if she does shows up. One valuable thing I learned on this trip is that I can still get a date everyday in the FSU without using an agency. Most men going to the FSU don't read forums like this to get advice to prepare for the "what ifs". They wear their heart on their sleeves, in love,  and failure is probably not on their mind.

[BillyB]

Hmm.... and then there are those that WMVM spending years and dozens upon dozens of trips meeting many hundreds of women and never find the right woman (Mr Av8or, I've met 500+ women although not the right one but it's "working" for me )

You only need to meet one, the right one.

If a guy doesn't know how to shuffle dates in their schedule properly and buckle when the difficult questions from ladies are asked if he's seeing others, he will fail too. SeriouslyJaded, you need to change your name to SeriouslyHappy based on the smiles in your avatar.

[BillyB]

Since O did not show up to meet me, I thought about using the agency a few blocks from my apartment and calling some ladies off of the dating site bride.ru but I had over 30 ladies to choose from on bride.ru so I held off going to an agency.

 Many of the numbers  blocked my call although they would accept sms. The ladies I did call out of the blue to were happy to talk to me and when I told them I was in town and wanted to go out with them, they were happy to hear that. Some asked me to send them a photo first and the ladies who accepted a date with me without seeing me, I asked them to go to their computer and see my photo first before accepting. I don't want to waste my or their time if she is not attracted to me. Some ladies did turn me down after seeing my photo. Others thought I looked good. Most could not go out with me immediately since they had plans with relatives on the holiday weekend I was calling but told me to call back later.

 After I told the ladies I was in town and would like to meet them, some were suspicious and interesting all conversations were very similar and went something like this:

 Me: After talking to them for a while I ask "I'm currently in Kiev and would like to meet you."

 Her: Pause....then in a not so happy tone. "Why are you in Kiev?"

 Me: "I came to Kiev to visit one woman I was communicating with on the Internet and she did not show up because her parents do not want her meeting with foreign men"

 Her: "Sooooo................you come to Kiev to meet many women?!?!"

 Me:  In a calm voice I said "No, I came to Kiev to see one woman and she didn't show up to meet me. I'm serious about finding a good woman in my life and I liked your profile and decided to call you. If I came to see many women in Kiev, I would not be calling you now."

 Her: Long pause..then "Why would you not call me?!?"

 Me: "Because if my intentions were to meet many women and have have fun with them, I would have made my plans with each of them before coming to Kiev."

 
Now that I've established I'm not a playboy and honest about why I'm in town when most men would lie about something like that, the ladies change their tune and start telling me the woman I came to visit was rude not to go out with me at least once after I made plans to see her and added other criticisms directed towards O. I take the high road being a gentleman and not jump on the bashing bandwagon they were giving O and say. "Maybe you're right but she was under stress from her parents and the loss of her job. She was always pleasant to talk to on the phone otherwise I would not have visited her if I knew she's a rude person." Of course they would now like to meet me.

It's possible to tell ladies you came to see another woman and by the time you get done talking, she'll like it and respect you more. Whenever you're faced with a negative in your life, there's a chance you can turn it into a positive and come out smelling like roses. I've never had a lady hang up the phone on me when telling them the truth about writing, calling or came to visit other women after they ask. If you tell the truth but talk or act as if you did something wrong, you're dead meat. If you're caught in a lie about communicating with or seeing other women, it's game over for you anyway.

 Most ladies say they would be available days later instead of the day I called. I say I'll probably call again later after the holiday. I won't pencil them in for a day and time because if I find a lady who'd go out with me tonight, I may want to keep going out with her if we like each other. One thing I begin to realize based off the number of positive responses to my calls and with the amount of women happy with my looks and the way I talk, I could get a date with a FSU woman everyday if I plan things out properly. I can also say based off the amount of rejection I've received a guy could get depressed easily. When dealing with women, expect rejection. Not ever woman is going to be attracted to you just as you aren't attractive to every woman. I myself rejected over 10,000 women at bride.ru since I wrote to and called only a few hundred.

Men can do a VO(visit one) and not miss a beat getting dates with backup ladies as long as you are prepared. I still recommend guys to communicate with many ladies first to make a good decision on who to visit and I would still recommend visiting more than one so that you give yourself more options to make a good choice.

 With all the ladies I'm calling, I do find a lady who's available tonight and stop calling others on my list to call. Time to get ready to meet "A" in a few hours. The only photo she provided in her profile was a head shot. I trusted she was truthful with her height and weight. She was and she was stunning and much better looking than the photo in her profile.

 A and I go to a French restaurant that was not expensive based off her recommendation. I help A take off her coat and notice she was wearing a see through blouse with a designer bra. I also noticed she was very blessed on top. I didn't stare but how can a guy not notice those things sticking out? Although the blouse was see through, she was very tastefully dressed and didn't give me any impression she was a slut.

 My ex wife is a Ukrainian who I met in the States. She is also big breasted and she told me while living in Ukraine, some men would approach her and try to start a conversation and she felt they were talking to her boobs instead of her since they would stare constantly at them while talking to her. If you're trying to score points with a lady, don't do that!

[Muddy]

Good work Billy
This girl has nice eyes:
http://www.loveme.com/invar/services/women/women_extraphoto.php?wid=105001&wname=6_Marina

[Muddy]

Sumy take 4-5 hours by train from Kiev
Poltava is 2 hours by taxi from Sumy

Maybe you will have better luck in smaller cities
Many profiles on A Forien Affair come from Army of Brides 

[BillyB]

Sumy take 4-5 hours by train from Kiev
Poltava is 2 hours by taxi from Sumy

Maybe you will have better luck in smaller cities

Luck as in finding a good/better woman in smaller cities or easy women desperate to get attached to any man and get out of the country?

On one of my taxi rides to Borispol airport a taxi driver asked me my business in Kiev. After learning I'm looking for a woman he tells me he goes to a smaller city outside of Kiev to look for ladies. Kiev women are hard to please. He said in that city(I won't mention the name) the women there have the best looks and body. He says with his nice car, telling the ladies he owns a taxi business and that he lives in Kiev, they are interested in him and tell him they have big dreams to live in Kiev too. After a nice dinner and a few drinks they willing go to bed with him. Spend a $50 on them and they give you their body he says. It's safe to say Western men aren't the only type of guys who try to lure RW with money, tall stories of success, and purposely advertising the location where they live so women will drool over him.

It's important to understand the motives of the lady you're visiting and what's important to her. Maybe it's you, your money, or where you live that she's attracted to. Using her body instead of her brains, she could have slept with over 50 guys hoping to catch a man to take her to the promise land before meeting you. Choose wisely.

[GQBlues]

Natalia is a beautiful woman and her character on the inside is even better than the outside. There's so many great things I can say about her and if I feel I'm not taking a fish out of water, I would be happy to marry her. Also another factor is that I'm being pulled in another direction from another woman which I'll talk about later in this thread. As long as I have good options, I'm open to them all.

Well Billy, FWIW, I a little biased towards Nat. It seems as though she's been around as long as I've known you. But either way, I wish only the very best to both of you.

[Ade]

SeriouslyJaded, you need to change your name to SeriouslyHappy based on the smiles in your avatar.

Yes, I've considered SeriouslyContented - maybe I should ask Dan to change it for me...

[Sculpto]

how about.. usedtobeseriouslyjaded or oncewasseriouslyjadeduntilImetmylovelywife

[BillyB]

how about.. oncewasseriouslyjadeduntilImetmylovelywife

That's perfect! Now we just need to verify that name isn't taken and then get Dan to change SeriouslyJaded's name to something more realistic.


I have a lot of time left on my trip and I go out with A for 5 days straight. We enjoy each others company. She's eager to see me and always on time. At her job she makes Russian Orthodox paintings among other items for the churches in Kiev to sell. She makes $1000 a month which is good money compared to O who made $600 a month before losing her job.

 We hit a roadblock on the 5th day. I  knew early on she was ambitious and had goals of opening a business but she told me this needs to happen in her life and that she must be a business owner. I ask her what happens if it don't happen? She said don't have bad thoughts. I tell her one can work all his/her life for their goals but sometimes you have to be prepared if it doesn't happen. I also tell her I'm the type of man who will help my woman achieve her goals but I won't make promises and won't just hand things over to her to earn her affection. She did not like to hear that and her mood went sour the rest of the evening.

 It was over and although I don't regret dating her, I lost a lot of time. I wished I could of found out her real intentions a little sooner.

 I call up a lady named "I" on the phone. Her first words to come out of her mouth was "Why didn't you call me Monday like I told you?" She was upset but I reminded her that I ask her out Friday or anytime on the weekend and she had plans with her friends, then I told her "although you had plans, you could've canceled them to meet me but you didn't so I thought you weren't interested in me or had a boyfriend but I'm calling again to see if you changed your mind" She said "No I don't have a boyfriend and I am interested in you". I say "good, lets see each other tonight."

 She picks a reasonably priced restaurant close to where she lives away from the center of Kiev. We talked for hours and I knew she was into me. We got to talking about different types of people and the people involved with international dating and I told her that men who are playboys are skilled in the art of communication and they have an easy time attracting women. They have much more success with women than a guy like me. She just stops, stares and gave me a sly smile and said  "I've never talked to a playboy that can talk as good as you."

 She really likes me but she has been on bride.ru for a year, she gave up hope and was content with living in Kiev and said "I want to be honest, I don't want to leave Kiev but if I really love a man, I'd move." I tell her "There's little chance for us to ever develop a relationship since we'll be apart for long periods of time and it will prevent you from obtaining the strong love you want and develop feelings towards me in order to motivate you to move to a different country."

 We talk some more but I don't ask her for another date for my last day in Kiev. I need to look for someone else. She still wants to communicate with me when I get back home and I agree. Who knows? It may be an uphill battle to get her out of Kiev but I like her so it's worth a little more time to talk to her.

Dating both ladies was great but I probably wouldn't have dated them if I had prior correspondence with them because I would find out their thoughts sooner and look for ladies to visit who doesn't need a man to give them a business or who can make the move to a new country without requiring herself to be in total love with a man. Her man should be more important than her country even if she's partially in love with him.

Both A and I were 24 years old. A never dated a man under 30 yo in her life. I dated men over 30 with the exception of one, her first boyfriend. I asked I why she didn't date men under 30. She said they are immature and dating one young man was enough. Her first boyfriend always said "yes" to her and always wanted to do what she wanted to do. She feared he couldn't make decision for himself and be a "Man".

 On my last day in Kiev, I sat in a coffee shop and noticed a lady occasionally looking at me. I knew she was attracted to me. She had one embarrassing moment. She was rubbing something small in her fingers while reading a book. It slipped out of her fingers and fell into her cleavage. No way it could've went anywhere else because she had a lot of cleavage. I'm not a breast size expert but her breasts must be at least DDD size. Looking down her cleavage thinking about digging the item out she then turns her head to me to see if I seen what happened. Of course my eyes are looking up before she looks at me. We looked at each other and she turned her head away quickly after.

 After a few minutes I walk up to her table and introduce myself and asked if I could sit down and talk with her. She said "yes". She was going to the university so I asked her age. She told me 19 and I responded I'm 39. Doesn't phase her at all. We talk some more but didn't ask for her number since I thought this won't go anywhere since she's young but I did ask for an email and without hesitation, she wrote it down. I pay for her tea and before we leave she goes to the bathroom and she comes out with more cosmetics on her face and her hair fixed nicer. I walk her to the metro and we say goodbye.

 The three ladies I mentioned here are much younger than me. 15-20 years younger. RW have told me I look 31-35 yo although I'm 39. This is my first experience with women that much younger than I and I begin to change my views that the agency hype "RW don't mind big age gaps" isn't agency hype at all, at least in the 15-20 yo age gap range. My future experiences confirm my suspicions. It's true, the average RW will accept much larger age gaps compared to the average Western women.

[acrzybear]

"I dated men over 30 with the exception of one,"

Billy

 I had no idea  

Thanks, now I have to get the tea out of my nose and clean my screen 

[BillyB]

"I dated men over 30 with the exception of one,"

Billy

 I had no idea  

Thanks, now I have to get the tea out of my nose and clean my screen 

LOL. Just in case anybody didn't get it "I" is Irena, not ME!

[rambler]

Hi Billy,
Your case with a no show was a good example of being prepared counts but...
I think the topic of visiting one at a time or many (on purpose) is confusing, I'd mention that Elana of Elena's Models sells a book that mentions it. Her opinion is that RW do not compete for men, men compete for women. Once they know you are there to see someone else as well as her. IT NEVER WORKS OUT. period. I mean if anyone should know she should. There is no reasoning with a woman, logical as it might be the emotional reaction is the one that counts. I know all the logistical and risk averse reasons for the counter argument but ... logic cuts no ice in the female of the species.  I'd like to do a straw pole - how many guys married a woman who was one of many they met on the same trip as other women?  And they are probably going to ask you the facts about others you have met on a different trip anyway.  Since it can take RW months to drop the other shoe are you going to pursue several in parallel on only in serial?  How do you cope with possible emotional connections with more than one woman. Worse still will they all sense it with disastrous results?  Probably. ... And even if you don't intend to be a two timing *******, it can happen anyway. A gorgeous Russian girl told me flat out in  Cafe in S France where she now lives and by Skype - not interested I want this other guy. OK I give it up. I'm at the gate boarding a plane to Moscow to meet someone who responded 2 months after I gave her up for Not Interested when I get an email on my phone that the French based girl wants to write to me again ... What!!!????  So the best laid plans of mice and men are aft a ganga glay ... the other guy tuns out to have 3 kids not the 2 he owned up to.  So I can't lie to her so she has to be told I'm in Moscow ... That's another story but you get the idea.

Thank you for your advice here.

Rambler

[BillyB]

how many guys married a woman who was one of many they met on the same trip as other women? 

Kuna and KenC are a couple of guys whom met their wife on a VM and Ken is one of the longest married members here. I think Gator is another on that's done it. Ken says the agency ladies know the routine. What's the problem? Two people go out as friends to see if they're compatible. If there's mutual chemistry, they go on more dates till they determine if they are right or wrong for each other. If they feel they are right for each other, then they could agree on being in an exclusive relationship forsaking all others. If a woman thinks you should commit to her before the first date, don't walk, run! Now if a guy made promises to a woman in emails or phone calls, then he better keep his promises to her that she's the only one he's seeing but there's a certain amount of insanity to make a commitment to a person you've never met.

Elana of Elena's Models sells a book that mentions it. Her opinion is that RW do not compete for men, men compete for women. Once they know you are there to see someone else as well as her. IT NEVER WORKS OUT. period.

Elena isn't always right. If a guy is assuming a RW is always right and is a "yes" man, he's going to have a hard time finding any woman. It can work out even if a guy does a VM and a woman asks if he's seeing other women and he's truthful about it. If a guy hesitates to answers, stutters, or don't look her in the eye when answering her question, he's done.

You shouldn't go to the FSU for the first time thinking marriage so the first visit is getting to know a woman and going out as friends. Tell the ladies your first few dates are happening as friends and you're not going to jump into bed or marriage with any woman based off a beautiful photo you seen off the internet, she needs to be the right woman and it takes time to learn who the right woman is. Most women will respect you for that. Women who will dump you after that probably isn't attracted to you after seeing you anyway or you turned her off with something else. If she's attracted to you, she will be more forgiving, even if you do have some flaws.

I'm surprised Elena from EM gave that advice out considering the agencies she deals with practice hooking up men on multiple dates. If it's not a good thing, then she needs to stop the practice or quit the business.

[myrddin]

I'm surprised Elena from EM gave that advice out considering the agencies she deals with practice hooking up men on multiple dates. If it's not a good thing, then she needs to stop the practice or quit the business.

I believe she (Elena, I'm ass-uming "Elana" was a typo  ) argues for Visit One in her first book, now a few years old.  I recall thinking, "Hm, could start an argumentative thread on RWD about that".... 

In a subsequent book, she talks about "if you meet 3 ladies on your visit...", apparently not making an argument for or against either tactic. 

rambler, you have a point about women choosing to be immune to logic, but I think the most important point BillyB is making is - whatever your path - don't lie.  (BTW, I met my current gf on a VM.  )