Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[Stix]

Something strange happens when a person, of any profession moves from private industry to government employment.  In private industry, the employee understands that the customer/client/patient is the source of their compensation in a direct way and if they are not seen as giving good service, the customer can take his/her business to a competitor.  So competition is not about price alone, it is more about improving quality.  Most private firms in America preach to their sales people that they should not sell based on price but upon rendering unsurpassed quality of service which will justify most any price.

Too many people, especially those with no experience in private industry (think white house and congress) don't understand this principle.

Anyway back to the individual who moves into government work.  The person who should be considered the customer, now become the adversary or a mere number on the "now serving" board.  DMV in California actually post signs telling the "customers" that it is a violation of the law to verbally abuse a DMV employee.  It makes me wonder, why such a sign would be necessary in a government office.  I have never seen such a sign in any private company.

Perish the thought that the many caring doctors and nurses in the U.S. should become like DMV employees protected from complaints by civil service status.  What a nightmare that would be.

Ronnie what you argue is true in some cases but not universally. GM certainly didn't get in the fix it is in and lose a large chunk of the US market by continually improving quality in the past, though they do have some good models now. Toyota and Honda seem to have understood your principle, which is how they've come to be synonymous with quality cars in the minds of many-though both companies are now seeing a drop in sales with the economic downturn. Who would have thought we'd see the day Toyota would be looking for a government loan? Of course correct me if I'm wrong but one advantage the Japanese companies have had are lower legacy costs made possible in part by partially nationalized healthcare. Some form of nationalized healthcare here, if done properly might also benefit our businesses to some degree.

But the "if done properly" is the key. My theory is, it's not so much whether healthcare is just nationalized or privatized-what is the culture of the government or private firm running it? Is it as you've mentioned, increasing profit by increasing value to the client or ultimately providing less while charging more and more over time. The debate I'm having within my office right now (a private firm) is how do we get people to care? I'm often told how difficult it is to get rid of underperforming government workers, but even in many private firms it's not that easy.

[Ronnie]

GM's problem was/is the IAW union who has won outrageous wages from the Big Three American companies that average a fully-burdened rate of $75/hour.  The foreign car companies pay less than $50 for the same American labor in the US plants.  Unions interfere with the labor market.  Unbridled immigration and lack of import tariffs further interfere with our labor markets.  By the way, I see import tariffs as an entrance fee to be paid for the privilege of you're bringing your good to sell into our market.  Don't the vendors at the fair have to pay for their booth?

[Ronnie]

Got a weak stomach?  Then don't watch this!


http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=GduzuzqGqG

[Stix]

GM's problem was/is the IAW union who has won outrageous wages from the Big Three American companies that average a fully-burdened rate of $75/hour.  The foreign car companies pay less than $50 for the same American labor in the US plants.  Unions interfere with the labor market.  Unbridled immigration and lack of import tariffs further interfere with our labor markets.  By the way, I see import tariffs as an entrance fee to be paid for the privilege of you're bringing your good to sell into our market.  Don't the vendors at the fair have to pay for their booth?

"Old" GM had a number of structural problems and I'll concede that union contracts were a big one.  However, my point was that it was a private sector company whose leadership over the years did not seem to realize that "if they are not seen as giving good service, the customer can take his/her business to a competitor". Their other problems would probably not have led to bankruptcy if large segments of the American public had not stopped believing in their products after tasting the Japanese competition. And though they've pretty much come up to par with the imports (at least with some of their models) their past reputation still stops many buyers from giving them another shot.

[SANDRO43]

Unions interfere with the labor market.

Of course they do, otherwise there would be NO market at all - it takes two to tango, as they say .

I started working at the end of 1962, and I can assure you that Italian labour relations then meant being TOTALLY at the mercy of one's employer. Things improved gradually later on, particularly after 1968, then the pendulum swang in the opposite direction, usually a signal that the lid had been kept on the pot too long. 

Unbridled immigration and lack of import tariffs further interfere with our labor markets.  By the way, I see import tariffs as an entrance fee to be paid for the privilege of you're bringing your good to sell into our market.  Don't the vendors at the fair have to pay for their booth?

OK, which means that you'd be happy having tariffs slapped on US goods on foreign markets - the usual retaliation to such measures. How about a tariff on the $800 billion of US bonds exported to China ?  Who pushed relentlessly these past decades for a global economy, Gabon multinationals ?

Ronnie, your economic recipe is simply demential .

[Ronnie]

Sandro, you're arguing like one of our liberal folks.  I'm perfectly fine with retaliation if that's what our trading "partners" want to do.  The truth is the US has the consumers that everyone wants to sell to, and we let 'em for free.  Bad idea.  Our companies would be happy to trade two new domestic customers for one lost foreign one.  Exporting to most countries is filled with red-tape, bribery and few returns.

Furthermore, Europe subsidizes exports by waiving the VAT.  Nevertheless, trade is destructive when one country is doing all the buying and very little selling.  Are you suggesting that this chart is just dandy for the American economy?




Stick to linguistics, Sandro. 

[Ronnie]

"Old" GM had a number of structural problems and I'll concede that union contracts were a big one.  However, my point was that it was a private sector company whose leadership over the years did not seem to realize that "if they are not seen as giving good service, the customer can take his/her business to a competitor". Their other problems would probably not have led to bankruptcy if large segments of the American public had not stopped believing in their products after tasting the Japanese competition. And though they've pretty much come up to par with the imports (at least with some of their models) their past reputation still stops many buyers from giving them another shot.

Stix, American cars have long ago resolved the quality gap. But they've not been able to resolve the profit gap due to this.

[Admin]

Ronnie,

I am sure there must be SOME tie-in from your posts to the theme of RWD. Can you please help me to find that connection?

- Dan

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

I am sure there must be SOME tie-in from your posts to the theme of RWD. Can you please help me to find that connection?

- Dan

Somebody brought up GM and Toyota and before you know it, we're totally
 
.

Let me fix that if I can.   

I heard something interesting today on the radio while driving home.

During the 1960's when a person suffered a heart attack, the probability of resultant death was between 30-40%

In 1975, the percentage of resultant death was brought down to 27%

In 1984, another study revealed that fatality after heart attack was further reduced - 19%

Ten years later the percentage was only 10%

And today only 6% of people having a heart attack die from it.

I'm wondering if other countries have similar heart attack survival rates.

I also heard that women survive breast cancer in America at a rate 5 times higher than in the U.K.

[Lily]

Dears, we are not discussing car undustries here. We discuss healthcare. Please stay on topic. You are free to open special threads for your ideas, if you wish.


Blues Fairy, I very much agree with you. I will not ask this woman about what does she think about longer life expectancy in Canada. IMHO my question would just make her angry and defensive against me.

Life expectancy has a lot to do with overall healthy lifestyle, not just with the way the health related force majeure sutuations are treaten.

[Ade]

I also heard that women survive breast cancer in America at a rate 5 times higher than in the U.K.

According to this http://www.imaginis.com/breasthealth/statistics.asp then America has a substantially higher incidence of breast cancer than the UK and other countries listed and although they also show that the UK has a higher risk of death it's very far from the "5 times" that you quote.

I've heard that the "facts" that Ronnie posts can't be trusted at all these days.

[Ronnie]

Thanks, SJ.  I should know better than to post some offhand comment someone makes on the radio or TV without checking it out as you have done.  Obviously, the rate of survival, once diagnosed varies but not that much.

I think the thing to take from these studies is that life expectancy is absolutely not an indicator of quality of health care.  The incidence of cancer in many poor and backwards countries is very low compared to Northern Europe and North America.  Probably due to genetic or lifestyle or both.  Not due to health care.

But we hear those irrelevant statistics about average life expectancy used often by the proponents of socialized medicine as proof the American system is shameful.

Well, that's just not the case according to this Article in the Telegraph that lists USA number one in cancer survival...mostly from early detection due to frequent testing in America vs in other countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

[MatryoshkaMan]

In April 2007 I spent 1 night in a hospital in Berdyansk Ukraine. Let's just say it was so horrifically terrifying that at dawn the next way my wife and I simply walked out the door without saying a word to the staff. From A to Z it was terrible!

[Ade]

Thanks, SJ.  I should know better than to post some offhand comment someone makes on the radio or TV without checking it out as you have done. 

Not to be pedantic about this or anything but as this is far from the first time you've posted patently false and easily checked data, I will. You should really consider checking your facts on several sites or at least one known reputable site before posting. There's so much crap floating around on the net already, do you really want to be one of those that perpetuates myths and rumours too?

[SANDRO43]

Are you suggesting that this chart is just dandy for the American economy?

Of course not, but what are the CAUSES of that trend line? Did tariffs on US exports spring up only after 1997? Are you blaming the automotive unions for it, when exports of gas-guzzling US cars have always been minimal anyway? Or could massive imports from China account for part of it, tolerated because of its willingness to buy US bonds?

Stick to linguistics, Sandro. 

Ronnie, I'm no economist, but you don't impress me as one, either.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, I'm no economist, but you don't impress me as one, either.

   Ooops!  You missed badly on that one.

This criticism reminds me... There is a vicious campaign against CNN's Lou Dobbs that has been going on for years.  Critics have called him an idiot and anti-Hispanic because is is for tariffs and against illegal immigration.  The facts are that his has a degree in economics from Harvard and is married to a Mexican American.  Ooops!

[Ravens9273]

This criticism reminds me... There is a vicious campaign against CNN's Lou Dobbs that has been going on for years.  Critics have called him an idiot and anti-Hispanic because is is for tariffs and against illegal immigration.  The facts are that his has a degree in economics from Harvard and is married to a Mexican American.  Ooops!

A person can have a Harvard degree but still be an idiot. Many people have book smarts but absolutely NO common sense.

Now the other comment about being Anti-Hispanic because he is against illegal immigration I am taking you are saying cannot be true because he has a Mexican American Wife.

First I did not know there was a such thing as  Mexican Americans?
You are either Mexican or American.
Same thing when many use the term African American.
Those are American as well. I bet 99% have never even been to Africa.
His wife may be of hispanic race but she is not a Mexican American.

Also being married to this Women does not justify to say he is not Anti-Hispanic. The reason others claim him to be Anti Hispanic is because he is against illegal immigration. His wife is a legal citizen of the USA.
He can still be Anti Hispanic. Just he is against the illegal ones which pretty much 90+% of the US population is.

[Sculpto]

A person can have a Harvard degree but still be an idiot. Many people have book smarts but absolutely NO common sense.

Now the other comment about being Anti-Hispanic because he is against illegal immigration I am taking you are saying cannot be true because he has a Mexican American Wife.

First I did not know there was a such thing as  Mexican Americans?
You are either Mexican or American.
Same thing when many use the term African American.
Those are American as well. I bet 99% have never even been to Africa.
His wife may be of hispanic race but she is not a Mexican American.

Also being married to this Women does not justify to say he is not Anti-Hispanic. The reason others claim him to be Anti Hispanic is because he is against illegal immigration. His wife is a legal citizen of the USA.
He can still be Anti Hispanic. Just he is against the illegal ones which pretty much 90+% of the US population is.

Mexicans ARE Americans as are Canadians, Brazilians and Colombians and everyone else in the western Hemisphere.

Just because Dobb's wife has some undefined Mexican heritage does not mean ANYTHING relative to her views on Mexicans.  There is plenty of racism in Mexico where about 5% of the population can claim nearly pure European bloodlines.  That same 5% own 95% of the wealth.  "Ladino" Mexicans can be, and usually are, harshly anti mestizo/indigenous. 

Ronnie ascribes to a view of the world somewhere to the right of the Republican Party.  Oddly, much of what he wishes for does exist in places like Guatemala, Colombia and several other Latin American countries.  Rich people control everything and live behind high walls and have private security, but, they pay little in tax and the court systems are completely oriented towards protecting their wealth at the expense of everyone else.  Ronnie, maybe you are just living in the wrong country and time??  Perhaps you would have been more satisfied living under the Pinochet regime in Chile?

[Shadow]

On the basic subjet of where are you receiving better healthcare, I can say with confidence that for MrsShadow it is in Russia. Not onyl because her parents are excellent doctors, but also because the doctors who work for the free healthcare system are not interested in prescribing medicine for cash.

In Russia, and this stems from the USSR days, if a doctor manages to cure a patient and the patient feels thankful, he will reward the doctor. That can be anything from a bottle of samagon to presenting a car, based on the wealth of the client. Should a client not give anything, the doctor will treat them with equal care next time, as they take their profession with honour.

In Europe a doctor is paid his bill regardless if the patient is cured or not. On top of that in many cases they get freebies from the pharmacy company for reaching their quoata of prescribed medicines.
From where the money for paying the doctor come, insurance or private, does not matter a lot. As long as doctors are paid to see their patients and not to cure them, the result will always be doubtful.

[Blues Fairy]

Should a client not give anything, the doctor will treat them with equal care next time, as they take their profession with honour.

A very idealistic view of Russian doctors.  Very far from all of them are that way.

[Misha]

As long as doctors are paid to see their patients and not to cure them, the result will always be doubtful.

Oddly enough, I have a good relationship with my family doctor. He actually cares about his patients and want to see them get better    He is not paid to cure patients either.

[Ronnie]

One of the first ladies I dated in the FSU was a nurse.  She was assigned to assist a particular doctor going out with the ambulance on emergency calls.  She told me that often the patients would be suffering from a heart attack, knife or gunshot wound and would often manage to ask the doctor the unavoidable question, "Am I going to die?"

The doctor, and she, would always answer, "yes, you're going to die."  They considered it great sport and mocked the patient's anguish later.  I told her she was an idiot and moved on.

State-run health care at it's best?

[ECOCKS]

Saw this earlier today and thought of you Ronnie!

Just one example, but typical, and a reminder that you should get the minimum care necessary to get you back stateside ASAP. Note comments like costs of transfusions and extra medicine (i.e. better quality meds and those that speed recovery or raise the chances). Then there is just the general shocking sanitation situation shown in one hospital. Also note that the young mother from the provice traveled to Kyiv in order to get care that wasn't available or was substantially better than in her small town.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8126683.stm

Sorry, but I couldn't figure out how to move the video into my post. If a mod can, I would appreciate it.

  

[55North]

One of the first ladies I dated in the FSU was a nurse.  She was assigned to assist a particular doctor going out with the ambulance on emergency calls.  She told me that often the patients would be suffering from a heart attack, knife or gunshot wound and would often manage to ask the doctor the unavoidable question, "Am I going to die?"

The doctor, and she, would always answer, "yes, you're going to die."  They considered it great sport and mocked the patient's anguish later.  I told her she was an idiot and moved on.

State-run health care at it's best?

                                                                                                                                           

I realise that we've established our mutual political opposition on another subject, Ronnie.     I've kept off this thread until now, the dialogue being relatively predictable given the topicality of the subject, and that it's American.
 
But where do you get off calling into contempt the public health systems of the largest economy of the world, namely the EU, using as an example the mutterings of operatives brutalised by a collapsing society devolved from previously totalitarian existence?  Any such behaviour by medics here would result in instant dismissal, plus being taken to court for damages.  An apology would be appropriate.

We rejoice in our humanity, wherein the poor, dispossessed and needy, even Russian and American visitors, can avail themselves of our health system, without fear!  Sh*t, it costs, but a return to the old days is unthinkable.
 
I wish my avatar was alive to partake in this debate.  I expect he would be appalled that it even had to take place.  Public Health, which effectively means basic healthcare and effectively free clean water (and treatment) for the common good, was the essential factor that civilised the brutalism of the industrial revolution, and then lead to universal suffrage (or democracy), something you no doubt profess to hold dear.
 
My avatar (whose name I carry) was of immigrant parents (French), and was one of a handful of London Victorians that identified the main requirements of Public Health, and then implemented them.  He was President of the Royal College of Surgeons and became the 1st Medical Officer of Health for London, the first public health appointment in the world I guess.  In his writings, he laid down much of the thinking that was to eventually develop into the National Health Service, or Socialist medicine as you call it.
 
Ronnie, I realise that the word Socialist brings you out in a rash, or a cold sweat (have you got insurance for that?), but many readers of this forum won't feel quite the same.  It is either what they're fighting for, or have fond memories of.

On the basic subjet of where are you receiving better healthcare, I can say with confidence that for MrsShadow it is in Russia. Not onyl because her parents are excellent doctors, but also because the doctors who work for the free healthcare system are not interested in prescribing medicine for cash.

Mrs 55North agrees, whilst being wowed by how she's having all her imported complaints, real and imagined, being checked by specialist consutants, free and gratis, in 3 5-star hospitals depending on discipline, all a short bus ride from home, in a city with an excellent medical school. 

[SANDRO43]

We rejoice in our humanity, wherein the poor, dispossessed and needy, even Russian and American visitors, can avail themselves of our health system, without fear!

Even Italians .

When I moved to London in 1971, I received my NHS card in a couple of days, and chose as family physician a doctor practising in Harley Street - basically because he was a transplanted Italian (my ex had almost no English then) and his location was within walking distance of where we resided.

What surprised me was how his first prescription for some pills (10, IIRC) was handled by a nearby pharmacy. I handed over his prescription and was told to come back a half hour later, when I was given a stoppered plastic tube containing the EXACT number of pills prescribed, with a self-adhesive label on it specifying its contents , rather than a manufacturer's box containing a higher number of pills.

55North, is this procedure still in use in the UK, or is it a relic of the past?