Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[AugustD]

Ronnie cited large medical advancements and results through award here in the US.  My question is what result does that equate into?  Is our lifespan greater in the US than anywhere in the world?  No.

We hear horrible stories of waiting in Canada in our "oh so believable" media but I find it hard to argue with first hand as Docetae gave.  As someone is not a Canadian or a Brit or a Ukrainian or anything but US Citizen, it is hard for me to rip all other systems and tout ours. 

My mother is currently in a similar situation health-wise as 55 North and we hold her full estate for this care not knowing how long it would go on.  If she did not have these assets then she would receive the very same care she is currently getting only qualifying under federal programs.  Fortunately from this financial standpoint, my father is not alive or he would be selling all his assets to pay for her.

If you argue for the beauty of capitalism for drug companies and for insurance companies, I am unsure how you can argue against prostitution in other threads.  Maybe it is a sense of morality and people do not believe that people have a right to the advancements in health care. 

My argument against a healthcare system in the US is our government will most certainly screw it all up.  You can look at our "bolstered" economy to see that. 

[docetae]

Docetae, as a previous regular traveller to Kyiv, I am glad you can be so positive about the health service there given some reports.  Even though the system is 'free', it is generally acknowledged that without self-supply and bribes, you die.

perhaps my experience was good because my wife is pharmacist and her best friend doctor. about bribe, they are everywhere in Ukraine and not only in the medical sphere. But I think we all agree about it.

About my experience in Canada, it was so far good, except delay for benign surgeries. Follow up of pregnancy for my ex was first class, I have one co worker who has cancer now and experiment no delay in treatment. I have had one big accident a few years ago and except first time in emergencies where they did not identify all wounds (but it was done after), I received good care from the system.
Nothing is perfect but I prefer 100 times to be in one public system than the one in USA. here I have a private insurance from work, result, I have refund on my taxes for what I paid to Quebec government and I am covered up to 95% for all expenses which are not already covered by the system (main difference is about dentist and special care for children )

[Ronnie]

August, it has been discussed upthread that lifespan is not at all indicative of the quality of a healthcare system.  There are many other factors that affect lifespan.  People in North America get far more cancers than people in undeveloped regions of the world.  They may live longer even with no healthcare!  The Asian people have lower incidence of heart disease.  Daily stresses affect health.  Automobile accidents end many lives prematurely in the U.S. as immature drivers slaughter themselves and others on the roads.  Gang bangers in our inner cities shoot each other in some strange notion of machismo.  None of these factors has to do with healthcare.

What does indicate the quality of healthcare is the rate of survival once you contract a deadly disease.  In this, the United States ranks first in the world.

It has been offered that 45m people in American, about 15% are without health insurance.  Okay, I don't like that so let's see what can be done.

First, included in that figure are approximately 15-20m illegal aliens.  These people don't generally receive insurance through their work because employers who employ them treat them like subhumans.  The do however receive treatment through emergency rooms where they know they can't be refused by law.  We all pay that cost which should have been born by the illegal employers.  Solution.  Require that all employers verify the legality of their employees using E-verify, a quick internet based system of matching names to social security numbers (illegals use bogus SSN's and/or ID documents).  Without the ability to obtain jobs, illegals will not remain in this country, they will return home and hopefully build their own economies.

That leaves less than 30m people uninsured which is about 8-9%.  Three percent of  Americans are in households with incomes over $250,000 and net worths over 1m dollars.  In this group there are those who are so wealthy that insurance is unnecessary - they pay direct, whatever the cost, for what they need.

We have an unemployment rate in America now set officially at 9.4%.  Most of those are unemployed temporarily and will be back to work and insured again within a few months time.  Unemployment happens to everyone at some time and is resolved with a job.

We also have religions in this country who reject modern medicine outright as a matter of faith.  

So as I've outlined the "problem" above, what is the obvious solution?  Imposing a nationalized system on the entire population, the vast majority of whom are completely happy with their current arrangements?  It is obvious to most of that this not the solution and will only aggravate the roots of the "problem."

Requiring that all employers use E-Verify will result in a drastic reduction in our illegal population.  That reduction combined with a moratorium on H-1B visas will  shrink the labor pool and put people back to work and off the taxpayers' backs.

Where employers must compete for labor, those who do not offer insurance will be forced by the market to upgrade their compensation packages to include insurance.  With more people working and earning higher incomes and with lower taxes, the economy will thrive.

These principles are no mystery to the Democrats.  They know what should be done.  But they are afraid that if they put people back to work and make them less dependent on government, these politicos will lose their constituencies and along with it, their perk-laden, powerful (could you call me "Senator" please?) jobs.

[Ronnie]

I present exhibit 1,399 in my case that the Democrat party is a front for communism.


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUaY3LhJ-IQ&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[Mod7]

I present exhibit 1,399 in my case that the Democrat party is a front for communism.

Ronnie, please reread the RWD ToS and stop derailing this thread to air your political views.

 

[Ronnie]

Kossak Cat (whoever you are).  I've taken a few minutes to go back and read your past comments in other threads. 

From those comments it appears you are a good example of what happens to some, otherwise nice, people when they get a little power as they suppose. We've all seen this phenomenon in various bureaucratic venues.  We've chuckled at Seinfeld's Soup Nazi shtick because we've seen such people in real life.

Obviously, I don't agree with you that the ToS apply to this thread (which I started) or to my comments thus far.  Health care has been made into a political football by your party (I'm not so naive as to think your intervention was otherwise motivated).  It has become therefore impossible to discuss health issues now free of political commentary.  Again, that was the doing of your party.

Because we are all affected by this issue (except the self-exempted congressmen and bureaucrats, of course) it is being discussed in every office, workplace and kitchen table across America.  It concerns us all deeply.  None more, the women who left the FSU's horrific socialized regime only to see same thing start to take root in their new home.   

I do wish to thank you for helping me to stop wasting time on RWD.  There are so many things to do so I will bid the forum members, farewell and God bless.

Ronnie

Dan, I remain willing to help any further K-2 kids who get denied their green cards
I have accumulated a number of cases that I can forward to their attorneys.  Feel free to give them my e-mail address.

[Sculpto]

dogmatic nonsensical rambling.  the ignorance on display here makes me ashamed to be an American. 

[Blues Fairy]

My Mom who lives in Sweden has just sent me this: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.1665088/rex-fick-brannskador-vagrades-ambulans&ei=Ac2AStPQDsSPtgeBsJnWCg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.1665088/rex-fick-brannskador-vagrades-ambulans%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS285%26sa%3DG - translated by Google from Swedish (warning! very graphic image)

A 1-year-old boy dropped a cup of boiling water on himself and got severe burns; his mother called ambulance but was told that her son's condition did not warrant a visit and she should bring him in herself.  She drove him to the hospital while her husband held the kid wrapped in cold wet sheets; they were admitted and now the investigation is under way. 

There's awesome socialized European health care for you.   

[ECOCKS]

Just an average day in the US healthcare system for a non-US resident with no insurance, make of it what you will:

Wife is uncomfortable all weekend but says, "No, let's wait until Monday and see if I really need to go to the doctor."

OK, Monday morning we wake up and the discomfort is now pain. We go to one of the common doc-in-a-box offices down the street which is operated by one of the two private hospitals in our area. Waiting time before seeing a doctor, including doing the initial history and paperwork, is 35 minutes. Coffee, various teas and hot chocolate are available FREE at a self-serve bar in the waiting room. Adjacent to the coffee counter is a large sign in four languages stating patient rights. At the bottom is a reminder that the facility is required by law to provide services without consideration of ability to pay.

Examination and discussion takes about 50 minutes in the comfortable, private examining room.

After the examination they take two culture and one urine samples for testing. Then they ask if we can drive to their imaging facility for an ultrasound since an appointment is available in about 2 hours. We say sure and prepare to leave. As we check out, the clerk asks, "What can you afford to pay today?" I reply, "All of it." $163 covers the exam, three lab tests, doctor consultation and coming ultrasound. Oh, and three coffees for me plus one black breakfast tea for my wife.

We drive to the other facility stopping on the way for a salad bar buffet at Souper Salads (we skipped breakfast and had only had the tea and coffee). We arrive a few minutes early, wait in the lobby for less than 10 minutes and the wife is in the changing room at 2:50 getting ready for the imaging.

Imaging takes about 1 hour in a private room, the male technician calls in a female coworker to observe since he is treating a female patient even with her husband in the room.

While we are driving home the doctor calls me on my cell phone with a preliminary diagnosis of the imaging results and suggests we schedule an appointment through their women's health center tomorrow. For understanding, that means call tomorrow to make an appointment that fits our schedule and theirs.

We stopped and had an espresso and a regular decaff to relax a bit after the tension of the day. We paid $4.20 something for those coffees.

[Sculpto]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/02/AR2007040200813.html

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_reasons_why_american_health_care_is_so_bad

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/deadbymistake/6555095.html

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124947013703607453.html

http://blogs.webmd.com/mad-about-medicine/2007/08/ceo-compensation-who-said-healthcare-is.html

[OlgaH]

My Mom who lives in Sweden has just sent me this:...

It is very sad. And there is a big question to the operator who received the call. Unfortunately it happens in any country, and in US people including children suffer or even died due to the medical malpractice and unprofessionalism.

[mies]

                           
But where do you get off calling into contempt the public health systems of the largest economy of the world, namely the EU, using as an example the mutterings of operatives brutalised by a collapsing society devolved from previously totalitarian existence?  Any such behaviour by medics here would result in instant dismissal, plus being taken to court for damages.  An apology would be appropriate.

I do not believe Ronnie presented the information correctly, and I am tempted to assume that he has misunderstood this woman, whose English language may have not been perfect. Doctors working in the ambulance are usually the most hard-working, most human, yet also the most worn-out and least paid people. My experience with ambulance doctors back at home was by far better than experience with average hospital doctors.
I believe that ambulance doctors who work long shifts and don't have time to use toilet or to eat for 12 hours - may tell a degraded alcoholic stubbed in drunk fight that he will die - hoping that he may stop drinking or at least drink less. Or that doctor or nurse may tell a drug-addict who uses coaxil that he will eventually die and that his death may happen quite soon. Because this is what is going to happen to this trash of the society. It's not like doctors revealing some huge secret to the people who are committing slow suicides daily.
Do you think it would be a better strategy to tell a guy with cirrhosis and other diseases that he won't die and he may continue drinking and sleeping drunk at the streets during cold autumn/winter nights? Or to tell a drug-addict whose limbs were just saved from amputation that he will not die and he can continue his usual daily routine and lifestyle?

[groovlstk]

I used to hang out with a group of EMTs years ago, and when they were drunk they would discuss their "ghoul books" (you can probably guess what a ghoul book is, but suffice it to say cell phone cameras and Canon Digital Elph cams have no business in the hands of these people) 

[GQBlues]

Dentistry, my wife is pretty hot against her Russian dentist. It turns out they performed a hacked job on her root canal. The tooth was still sensitive to extreme temps after a year she got it done. But that has been corrected here in the US.

In the US, she's only received her periodic health exams with the exception of one visit she needed to make because of pain in her ears. She said she always had this issue even back in Russia. We thought it was an ear infection but the doctor determined it was an allergic reaction. They eventually determined what the allergen was and they also prescribe the medication to ease the discomfort on that visit. She hasn't had the experience for over 3 years now.

Her opinion so far regarding the differences is, if compared to public care readily available in Russia, she feels the US is far more superior. If compared to private care, then she feels they're very comparable.

-------

As for the present national debate regarding universal health care, ridiculous. Just like S-CHIP, the will of the majority doesn't amount to much with these politicians if it runs counter to their agendas and party interest. S-CHIP was the Dems pet project and was sent on a ballot to 4 different states (Cal/Nev/OR/MO) and it was resoundingly defeated. So what did Pelosi do right after the coronation? She pushed it for our highness to sign into law. So much for the interest of the people.

Americans will be better served to read more about Assurance Maladie and see how sustainably effective the 'best national healthcare system' in the world really is. I can't help but think of the over 15,000 dead elderly the last time France was hit with a 10-day heatwave.

Obama received nearly 60 million votes, how much of the 45 millions of uninsureds are in that lot ~ go figure...Guess who the majority of these voters are ~ go figure. You can do the math. All of what this is doing is expanding the welfare system, which everyone agree had always been the poison cure. He'd receive one more vote had her illegal alien aunt s**king up on the system in NY was able to buy a social security number in time for the election.

[BC]

Americans will be better served to read more about Assurance Maladie and see how sustainably effective the 'best national healthcare system' in the world really is. I can't help but think of the over 15,000 dead elderly the last time France was hit with a 10-day heatwave.

Irrelevant.  The article from 2003?

How many air conditioners have been installed since then?  In Europe, even here down in one of the warmest regions AC was quite rare in private residences up until a few years ago.  Now you can buy them at the supermarket for a few hundred bucks and just about everyone has them.

[GQBlues]

Irrelevant.  The article from 2003? <snip>

You think ?!?

The air-conditioning systems, or lack thereof, was hardly the point but this was...

<<...The new estimate comes a day after the French Parliament released a harshly worded report blaming the deaths on a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly....>>

A lot of lives could have been saved (from 3,000 vs 14,000 ) had there been more facilities, physicians, and care readily available to attend to those urgently requiring medical attention.

[Faux Pas]

Obama received nearly 60 million votes, how much of the 45 millions of uninsureds are in that lot ~ go figure...Guess who the majority of these voters are ~ go figure. You can do the math. All of what this is doing is expanding the welfare system, which everyone agree had always been the poison cure. He'd receive one more vote had her illegal alien aunt s**king up on the system in NY was able to buy a social security number in time for the election.

I agree but I see the more sinister side as well. It gives the government another "in-road" into the private lives of Americans and another large amount of the country's financial resources to control and use for it's own bidding. We don't need or require Healthcare reform. Insuring the 10% of Americans who are not currently insured would be the way to save money. Offering them the plan they are proposing without tearing down the entire medical establishment would help insure the best healthcare in the world remains here, in America.

It's not about providing medical insurance to those that do not have it. It IS about more power and control of our lives being handed to the federal government which, couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the bottom.

[Blues Fairy]

Unfortunately it happens in any country, and in US people including children suffer or even died due to the medical malpractice and unprofessionalism.

I am told by my friends and relatives that in Sweden, such negligence and lack of professionalism is pervasive.  The wait times for necessary surgeries and tests are also extremely long and many procedures are botched.  My mother's husband recently lost a finger after a minor operation because Swedish doctors rarely prescribe antibiotics after a surgery.  

[OlgaH]

I am told by my friends and relatives that in Sweden, such negligence and lack of professionalism is pervasive.  The wait times for necessary surgeries and tests are also extremely long and many procedures are botched.  My mother's husband recently lost a finger after a minor operation because Swedish doctors rarely prescribe antibiotics after a surgery.  

I can't tell so much about the health care system in Sweden, only from what I read about it. The system has its own pluses and minuses, so the health care system in US has it as well. I did not have any problems with health system in Russia neither during Soviet time nor during the Post Soviet time, at least I just can't recall any my personal case and don't have negative memories or bitter feelings.  But I would rather agree that it is much better to have a choice. I had my OMC (obligatory medical insurance)  and I had a choice to purchase an additional medical insurance choosing a company, though I preferred no to do so and I paid when I visited a doctor.

For example with OMC you don't need to pay for your blood and urine test, but you need to be at your clinic at 7 am (what a pain) and wait in line (another pain   )  But paying extra money (and it was not so much) you can avoid all those "pains". Our state institution where I worked signed an additional contract with a clinic and all our employees every year had their preventive medical exams with tests visiting different specialists  and we did it during our working time. Not bad   I had a choice what doctor I would like to visit: a doctor at my clinic I was appointed to in accordance with OMC (it was free) or any other  doctor ( I should pay). So, for example: my physician tells me that I need to make an annual appointment to visit a breast doctor. I can do it for free in accordance with my OMC, but, yes, sometimes the list of the patients can be long and you need to wait sometimes about month, or I can pay extra money and it can be done even on the same day (depends on the breast doctor schedule   )      

[docetae]

Just an average day in the US healthcare system for a non-US resident with no insurance, make of it what you will:

Wife is uncomfortable all weekend but says, "No, let's wait until Monday and see if I really need to go to the doctor."

OK, Monday morning we wake up and the discomfort is now pain. We go to one of the common doc-in-a-box offices down the street which is operated by one of the two private hospitals in our area. Waiting time before seeing a doctor, including doing the initial history and paperwork, is 35 minutes. Coffee, various teas and hot chocolate are available FREE at a self-serve bar in the waiting room. Adjacent to the coffee counter is a large sign in four languages stating patient rights. At the bottom is a reminder that the facility is required by law to provide services without consideration of ability to pay.

Examination and discussion takes about 50 minutes in the comfortable, private examining room.

After the examination they take two culture and one urine samples for testing. Then they ask if we can drive to their imaging facility for an ultrasound since an appointment is available in about 2 hours. We say sure and prepare to leave. As we check out, the clerk asks, "What can you afford to pay today?" I reply, "All of it." $163 covers the exam, three lab tests, doctor consultation and coming ultrasound. Oh, and three coffees for me plus one black breakfast tea for my wife.

We drive to the other facility stopping on the way for a salad bar buffet at Souper Salads (we skipped breakfast and had only had the tea and coffee). We arrive a few minutes early, wait in the lobby for less than 10 minutes and the wife is in the changing room at 2:50 getting ready for the imaging.

Imaging takes about 1 hour in a private room, the male technician calls in a female coworker to observe since he is treating a female patient even with her husband in the room.

While we are driving home the doctor calls me on my cell phone with a preliminary diagnosis of the imaging results and suggests we schedule an appointment through their women's health center tomorrow. For understanding, that means call tomorrow to make an appointment that fits our schedule and theirs.

We stopped and had an espresso and a regular decaff to relax a bit after the tension of the day. We paid $4.20 something for those coffees.

I get exactly the same kind of story but with a 3500$ bill at the end for a broken ankle.
It is up to you to play (russian? ) roulette .

[OlgaH]

I get exactly the same kind of story but with a 3500$ bill at the end for a broken ankle.

How many cups of coffee, tea and hot chocolate did you have for such money? 

It is up to you to play (russian? ) roulette .

In such case I'm not sure if it is a Russian roulette because in Russia you pay first, so it is never a surprise.

"Money in the evening, chairs in the morning" (Ilf and Petrov. 'The Twelve Chairs') 

[55North]

Just as I thought that I had no more to say on this topic, my favourite newspaper went and 'opened old wounds'.   A political campaign, on TV, with such lying would be unimaginable in the UK.  It is also as if the Republicans in particular have chosen to go out of their way to insult the British.  We get more approximation of the truth from the Kremlin!
 
These would be funny, if it wasn't going to be so deadly for some...........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/11/nhs-sick-healthcare-reform

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/obama-health-reform-white-house

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineusa/2009/aug/11/nhs-criticism-obama-healthcare

Quote:

The UK spends less per head on healthcare but has a higher life expectancy than the US. The World Health Organisation ranks Britain's healthcare as 18th in the world, while the US is in 37th place.
 

[docetae]

How many cups of coffee, tea and hot chocolate did you have for such money? 


In such case I'm not sure if it is a Russian roulette because in Russia you pay first, so it is never a surprise.

"Money in the evening, chairs in the morning" (Ilf and Petrov. 'The Twelve Chairs') 

About paying first and surprise it can be... Friend of my wife is doctor (33 and single..) , she told us a story about one man who bribed a doctor to be sure that his wife will have very good care and a the smallest scar possible after a cesarian. Usage was to do a long opening that was fast and simple to do without paying attention to the esthetic side. The doctor accepted but following a change of room, another woman had the benefit of the bribe... Chaos is an euphemism to describe the scene between the husband and the doctor...

[OlgaH]

docetae,

I was not talking about bribing  I was talking about paying right to the clinic and everything you pay for will be written in the receipts 

[GQBlues]

I can't speak for the growing anger over this administration, but I can certainly speak for me and my wife.

Here's our current medical insurance plan. My employer pays for mine. My wife's employer pays for hers.

Co-pay $30.00 for all non-urgent care. If I opted for my own physician, I pay an annual deductible of $250.00 and 15% thereafter but it caps out at $200,000.00. All charges after that the insurance company pays 100%. So worst case scenario, I'm out $30,000.00. I broke my hand a few years ago. MRIs, surgery, pre and post-surgical care, therapy...I was out $2,800.00.

Luckily for me, my personal physician is a member of our plan.

My wife's insurance is almost the same as mine except her's is a 500.00 deductible with a 20% patient pay. Worst case scenario, we're out $40K.

Total cost for our insurance premiums ~ ZERO.

 (When my wife was still in the university, we paid a nominal fee for a University provided medical/dental/optometry care. All non-intensive, non-surgical care free of additional charges except prescription drugs ~ anytime). I was paying for her insurance at the time and it cost a total of $238.00/mo. Medical, Dental (minor coverage), Life ($50,000.00).

Obama said we'll have a choice between the universal care and private insurance. Right. For most employer provided health insurance, employers understand that they do not have to carry the cost since there will be a progarm available in Obamacare, which for what it's worth is nothing more than HMO ( have any of you folks ever stood in line for Kaiser-Permanente for care? ), to which I would have to pay to additionally. In the event my (our) employer/s tells me (us) they'll continue to pay for our respective insurances, we'll get taxed for it instead. So there's Obama's version of 'free choice'.

Faux Pas is absolutely on the money. We have the best medical care available anywhere in the world. If 5% of our citizens need insurance, then by gawd provide it. But to overhaul an entire well-functioning system because of the needs of the 5% of the citizenry is absolutely asinine. The other 5% of that ten percent is made up of the elite and illegal aliens. Rewrite NAFTA or levy a tariff against the Mexican government for every dollar we pay to care for their citizens who illegally entered the USA. Do you think Putin will put up providing medical care for their millions of Chinese illegal aliens?

Doubt it.

This is about payback, agendas and abuse of power.

I have no pat with Canadian liking their Canadian system. British unto their own, etc...I just can't help but wonder why that pendulum doesn't seem to sway the same way. Leaves me to wonder if their system will remain as 'sustainable' if their respective government carry millions of illegal aliens along the way in their respective programs.