Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[kievstar]

Should the rich always bail out the poor?  America was not based on free handouts.  There needs to be a law that lawyers can not run for senate, house, or president.  Would be better if we had politicans that have experience working in the real world and not as lawyers. 

There are more jobs today than there was in 2000.  Right now there are more than 10 million jobs open in USA.  There are more than a million jobs over 60,000 usd per year open.  The problem is many people did a poor job on making sure they have qualified skills.  200 years ago these people probably died.  We really need to have more natural selection.

[ECOCKS]

Yes, lots of low-level jobs out there.

Which is where those who are trying to better themselves need to start anyway. New restaurant opening down the street hiring about 20 people, call center positions are screaming for applicants, governments are hiring for public works projects and dealing with the retirement of the boomers.

[Sculpto]

"Philosophical" Sculpto?

You are too bright to be this naive. There's nothing philosophical about Nanci Pelosi chanting 'si se puede' a year away from the 2010 elections. That's being opportunistic and self-serving. There's not much logic and philosophy in that type of politics.

The very moment Pelosi were uttering those words, illegal aliens were/are planting marijuana fields on our state and local parks . One huge field was recently closed down in Yosemite that was heavily guarded by armed illegal aliens. What do you think would have happened if a hiking or camping family accidentally stumbled upon this field, or others like it?

Philosophical ~ hardly.

As for Social welfare, it IS the root of our society's problems. It teaches a person complacency and entitlement nothing more. For $400.00/mo. it easily destroys a person's sense of hope and dignity. 'Free' money is the worst form of addiction.

It's really ironic you'd even bring up Kennedy.

GQ..

Pelosi, like Feinstein are part of an old political machine that really does not represent the values in their districts.  They are soft.  They live in mansions.  What do either of them think they actually know about the experiences of the hard working Mexicanos who risk their lives to cross the border and build a better life for themselves here.  Most of such people are hard working risk takers who given the chance clean up their neighborhoods and eventually invest in their new communities.  The one percent of bad guys is easily offset by the huge number of Americans and wrongly deported American citizens of hispanic descent  living illegally in TJ who are there as fugitives from the law and create a level of havoc and criminal activity that is far beyond anything the illegals do on this side of the border.  

I just read about the Yosemite thing.  What I can tell you is it is very unlikely this kind of thing is perpetrated by illegals.  The organized crime elements that do such things are well organized criminal groups headquartered in Tijuana and have a reach from British Colombia to El Salvador.  Legalizing ganja will certainly put an end to such activities and remove the criminal element from the production of herb.  It will be on the ballot this fall and hopefully Californians will have the wisdom to see it through.

Social programs should be a safety net.  Unfortunately they are not always used as such.  But, you can not expect things to change in the most disadvantaged neighborhoods without massive investment in education and intervention.  Its really that simple.  

[BC]

The text reads: "This genetically ill person will cost our people's community 60,000 marks over his lifetime. Citizens, that is your money"

Blues,  when you pull something like that it seems you really have lost faith with mankind.  Surely you have something with more substance to add.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[OlgaH]

Limits do need to be set.

Having decisions made maybe by a board of health professionals (that can be appealed anyway, even if in form of a lawsuit) limiting treatment that is determined will not support quality of life, also quite ok.

I agree. If there is not any hope for a person to continue to live without feeding tube and he is not able to make a decision and he has no one who would make the decision there should be a special commission.  

I had such conversation with my husband if something happens to me. I don't want a feeding tube if there no hope for me.

My granny has a cancer. Doctors said that it is too late for operation because of metastases and a chemical therapy will kill her faster than cancer.  My mother, aunt and I were all together in a doctor's office taking a decision that it is better for my granny to stay home and when time comes  the morphine will be available to her...  

[Sculpto]

The problem is many people did a poor job on making sure they have qualified skills. 

Kiev.. this comment just isn't fair.  In my own case i have a long list of qualifications and a high level of expertise.  I am very seriously considering going back to school to retrain and over two decades of hard won experience and knowledge.  That I should even have to consider such action is really screwed up. 

A healthy society provides stability and environment in which people can excel.  Successful businesses do the same thing.  If you create a company with no chance for advancement, no chance for improvement, what kind of employees will you get and how often will you have to replace them?

We can not go on thinking everyone and everything is disposable.  Its not a question of natural selection but should be a question of the quality of life for everyone.  We are all on the same space ship. (boat)

[BC]

I agree. If there is not any hope for a person to continue to live without feeding tube and he is not able to make a decision and he has no one who would make the decision there should be a special commission.  

I had such conversation with my husband if something happens to me. I don't want a feeding tube if there no hope for me.

My granny has a cancer. Doctors said that it is too late for operation because of metastases and a chemical therapy will kill her faster than cancer.  My mother, aunt and I were all together in a doctor's office taking a decision that it is better for my granny to stay home and when time comes  the morphine will be available to her...  

Olga,

That is probably one of the toughest life decisions one can be faced with.  I'm sure your Grandmother will be much happier with family vs institutional care.  I can only pray to be afforded the same, and that should I decide it's time to go with dignity a choice will exist.

[Blues Fairy]

I agree. If there is not any hope for a person to continue to live without feeding tube and he is not able to make a decision and he has no one who would make the decision there should be a special commission.  

Read the bill, Olga.  It clearly says that the government commission will mandate the time of advance care consult, the approved doctors, methods, and resources for end-of-life treatment, and the range and level of treatments available for end-of-life plans.  

Do you seriously, honestly agree that you'll be comfortable with so much government meddling in your private life?

[Blues Fairy]

Blues,  when you pull something like that it seems you really have lost faith with mankind.  Surely you have something with more substance to add.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

BC, Godwin's law applies to invoking Nazis where they have absolutely no relevance.  In this case, you would be BLIND not to see a similarity.  The Nazi chapter is not unique; I could as well invoke American progressives of the first half of the 20th century who also espoused eugenicist views; this chapter has even more relevance since it did take place in this country but, luckily, was suppressed.

But somehow you modern liberals have this childish trust in the incorruptible government and, while denying American exceptionalism, believe that the US will somehow, paradoxically, dodge the inevitable result of the good intentions that drove the other countries' totalitarian agendas. 

[BC]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person

Can anyone tell me if something is out of whack here?

I lived in Germany where I would rate health care as excellent but at only 63% of what is spent in the US per capita
I now live in Italy where I would rate health care as quite good but at only 39%.. with a quite healthy and long living population, among the best.

..and that using 1998 figures.. I can only wonder what it looks like today.

another interesting aside is the number of hospital beds per capita.. surprising that with such high spending the US has a very low availability of hospital beds..

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hos_bed-health-hospital-beds

It just doesn't add up IMHO.. but believe in that old adage 'follow the money'.. the answer lies there.

Seems the more you spend, the less you get.

[Sculpto]

But somehow you modern liberals have this childish trust in the incorruptible government and, while denying American exceptionalism, believe that the US will somehow, paradoxically, dodge the inevitable result of the good intentions that drove the other countries' totalitarian agendas. 

The choice comes down to trusting insurance companies who have as their primary motive profit or choosing the government to create reliable and consistent standards of minimum care equal to all regardless of ability to pay.  In this case, as skeptical as I am about the ability of the government to do anything right, the choice of the government is by far the lesser of two evils.

[BC]

BC, Godwin's law applies to invoking Nazis where they have absolutely no relevance.  In this case, you would be BLIND not to see a similarity.  The Nazi chapter is not unique; I could as well invoke American progressives of the first half of the 20th century who also espoused eugenicist views; this chapter has even more relevance since it did take place in this country but, luckily, was suppressed.

Blues,

I am not blind, but do live in 2009, not 1939 and yes, consider such comparison irrelevant, totally so.

But somehow you modern liberals have this childish trust in the incorruptible government and, while denying American exceptionalism, believe that the US will somehow, paradoxically, dodge the inevitable result of the good intentions that drove the other countries' totalitarian agendas.

Trust the government?? haha.. just read my posts on such topics.  I do though believe that medical care of equal quality should be afforded to all regardless of their background, deeds good or bad, income, or employment status.  In wars, the medical services of the armed forces treat those that killed 'our' own with equal care, one of the few remaining badges of honor that I fully recognize and am proud of.  Should a US citizen or national be afforded anything less?

[GQBlues]

 

So now we've come to this, supporters of Obamacare have now stooped so low they are recruiting Americans for pay to rally support for this silly bill by placing an ad on Craig's List.

A half a year with this administration and things are awfully nuts! $4,500.00 for that junk sitting on people's frontyard, $600 bucks a week to recruit support for a bill.

Really makes you wonder loudly now how much that vaunted Chicago organization spent last election.

[ECOCKS]

The text reads: "This genetically ill person will cost our people's community 60,000 marks over his lifetime. Citizens, that is your money"

This is the reality of the concern of what it will eventually come to if government takes control of the healthcare system. No scaremongering, but many see this as the beginning or the institutionalization of making healthcare decisions based upon cost to the community rather than the family.

Insurance companies do this to some extent now and people get angry enough when denied care, when those government bureaucracy review/approval systems get setup this whole "Death Panels" thing becomes much more real to those who are denied.

It's looking less likely everyday that this monolithic agency will take form, but some sort of insurance fund for these people is a distinct probability.

Today's uproar over the "deal" with the pharmaceutical companies marks a serious blow to the Administration's healthcare initiative, maybe even a KO punch. Hilary could have warned them about this I guess, but Obama's lack of experience is beginning to become more apparent.

We shall see.

[Sculpto]

So now we've come to this, supporters of Obamacare have now stooped so low they are recruiting Americans for pay to rally support for this silly bill by placing an ad on Craig's List.

A half a year with this administration and things are awfully nuts! $4,500.00 for that junk sitting on people's frontyard, $600 bucks a week to recruit support for a bill.

Really makes you wonder loudly now how much that vaunted Chicago organization spent last election.

I wouldnt trust that posting GQ.. Craigs has been invaded by scammers and propagandists.  Its not real.

[GQBlues]

I wouldnt trust that posting GQ.. Craigs has been invaded by scammers and propagandists.  Its not real.

Yeah, you're probably right. One thing is for certain however, our national political arena have so degraded itself to the point that the only source of trust people can count on are their own cognition.

[OlgaH]

Read the bill, Olga.  It clearly says that the government commission will mandate the time of advance care consult, the approved doctors, methods, and resources for end-of-life treatment, and the range and level of treatments available for end-of-life plans.  

Do you seriously, honestly agree that you'll be comfortable with so much government meddling in your private life?

I read and I see nothing wrong with Advance Care Planning Consultation that includes an explanation  by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to, an explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses, an explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy, the provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline and all other explanation and discussions  

I don think there is something wrong that end-of-life treatment must be approved before to implement it. I also think that all clinics and hospitals must have accreditation and the accreditation criteria must be the same for all clinics including privet. I don't have any problems that the State Ministry or Department  of Health is government's organization for so many years  

BTW I did not have any problem with the available range and level of treatments according to my obligatory medical insurance (government social program) in Russia and I always could pay for some more if I choose to and I  privet clinics also were available.

I see nothing wrong with the order in some particular cases.

[OlgaH]

 I do though believe that medical care of equal quality should be afforded to all regardless of their background, deeds good or bad, income, or employment status.  

I'm with you.

[BC]

This is the reality of the concern of what it will eventually come to if government takes control of the healthcare system. No scaremongering, but many see this as the beginning or the institutionalization of making healthcare decisions based upon cost to the community rather than the family.

Insurance companies do this to some extent now and people get angry enough when denied care, when those government bureaucracy review/approval systems get setup this whole "Death Panels" thing becomes much more real to those who are denied.

It's looking less likely everyday that this monolithic agency will take form, but some sort of insurance fund for these people is a distinct probability.

Today's uproar over the "deal" with the pharmaceutical companies marks a serious blow to the Administration's healthcare initiative, maybe even a KO punch. Hilary could have warned them about this I guess, but Obama's lack of experience is beginning to become more apparent.

We shall see.

Instead of dwelling on what cannot work in the US, why not look at other countries who have very similar if not identical systems as is proposed and explain how they are able to work it out.

Those same companies getting dry heaves in Washington deal with government health entities around the world to get on their approved medication lists without necessity of barf bags.

[Sculpto]

Yeah, you're probably right. One thing is for certain however, our national political arena have so degraded itself to the point that the only source of trust people can count on are their own cognition.

I do not think the political arena has changed at all.  What has changed is access to information, the speed at which information is spread, and the agendas of those who are doing the spreading.  

Something conservatives really need to keep in mind is unfortunately the last administration lied so much as to have seriously discredited the value of the conservative opinion for much of America.  Average people felt betrayed and most people feel scammed as well.  That scam was perpetrated by powerful right wing forces who instead of actually creating wealth by producing something of value were able to embezzle legally from the national treasury for the so called rebuilding of Iraq.  This overt abuse of power, the ridiculous lies used to justify the war in the first place and the utter waste of material and human treasure will not soon be forgotten.  The policies and politics which enabled that abuse will go unpunished in the courts, but, in the court of popular opinion it is going to take a long time before the right has enough credibility to regain the independent vote and opinion.

Maybe Halliburton should repay all the money they stole to fund the national health insurance plan?

[pitbull]

 I do though believe that medical care of equal quality should be afforded to all regardless of their background, deeds good or bad, income, or employment status.  

and regardless to age.

So far, people over 65 are being awarded healthcare at the expense of younger population in the US. Makes little sense for the society.

In short, the time of unlimited healthcare is over. The US can only spend a limited amount of GDP on healthcare (which is skyrocketing). There are inevitable "difficult" decisions we will have to make, yes, including healthcare rationing. In a rational way. And there is no way to do it and keep everyone happy.

Also, all those senior citizens who participate in "townhall meeting protests" and yell that they "don't want government direct their healthcare", while being on Medicaid...  

[Sculpto]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-10-2009/healther-skelter---obama-death-panel-debate

[docetae]

Just do a little search on international press... you will see how americans are making fool of themselves with these "socialist", "russia", "hitler & co"
propaganda.
It seems to me you have reached a new low...

[Blues Fairy]

So far, people over 65 are being awarded healthcare at the expense of younger population in the US. Makes little sense for the society.

Yeah, let's start setting values on human lives based on their usefulness for the society.

Also, all those senior citizens who participate in "townhall meeting protests" and yell that they "don't want government direct their healthcare", while being on Medicaid...

MediCare, actually.  

All senior town hall participants I've seen are actually protesting against expansion of government programs because they are freaked about further rationing and reduction of treatment at the end of life.  This is their main concern; not gov't directing health care.

But how dare they speak their mind, old codgers and hags; they carry no value for the society.

[GQBlues]

Something conservatives really need to keep in mind is unfortunately the last administration lied so much as to have seriously discredited the value of the conservative opinion for much of America.

You really shouldn't spend too much time on Bi-Partisian hacks, Sculpto. I realize you're living in the hotbed of Liberal leaning, but know we are all still afforded access through "Freedom of Information Act".

Take the time to read and understand the lies and truths of Iraq war and all the political players surrounding it ~ before , during, and after. It's available to you and the American people.

Once done, do yourself a favor and draw your own conclusion. Don't jump on a bandwagon simply because it fits your idealism.