Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[docetae]

For the detail, Canadians with high income who wants to shortcut the system go to Cuba, not to US. At one time, there was some delay for Radiotherapy and patients were treated in US, all fees paid by canadian/province government.

[Ade]

Who has taken offense? Not moi. I just pointed out the absurdity of your statement and you want to pretend it is some kind of attack on you. You are not qualified to make such statements SJ. You are not American, you don't live here and you don't pay taxes or buy healthcare here. Most Americans don't care about your opinion or your perception of Americans.
 
Because YOU made the statement of "ignoring facts" and "patent false propaganda". Back up your statement SJ or admit that you are intellectually lazy and a hack. It's the Ultra-Liberal left wing wackos  that attempt to demonize and silence anyone who's thought process doesn't march lockstep with theirs.

Then why make absurd statements and attempts to denigrate an entire citizenry over something you "couldn't care less" about? You are happy with your socialist government fine, enjoy your little version of Utopia. I know the thought that you may not actually know "everything" hasn't ever crossed your mind but, you should give it some consideration this time.

I suppose this is where only the intellectually  superior and enlightened can have a sense of humor and "get it"? One wonderful trait "we over here" have over "you over there" is that we question authority. We don't blindly accept that our government or other governments of the world are going to do what is in our best interests. You do, just as you are doing now. How has that history and line of thought worked out throughout time for you guys "over there"?

You can use hyperbolic rhetoric as much as you want dude, but the fact of the matter is that your loony right politicians (and a few people here for that matter) are pointing to European national health systems as examples of how bad an all inclusive government run health system can be which is patently ridiculous for those of us actually living here and reaping the many benefits. They along with their pet news outlets lie and exaggerate like crazy to mislead you guys to further their own agenda. Wake up and smell the BS they are feeding you.

As for not trusting your government; well, why doesn't that surprise me. Over here, bad or corrupt governments tend not to last very long; it's called democracy and accountability. I thought you guys knew about that?

[ECOCKS]

Sanity begins to assert itself....

WASHINGTON – Bowing to Republican pressure, President Barack Obama's administration signaled on Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Whew!

[SANDRO43]

Good response BF - unfortunately you are trying to reason with wimpy socialist...Euro and Canadian wusses...

Thank you for not calling us rabid Communists outright, as Ronnie would doubtless have done . Who was it that often stated that name-calling is proof of no valid counter-arguments ?

[BC]

Sanity begins to assert itself....

WASHINGTON – Bowing to Republican pressure, President Barack Obama's administration signaled on Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Whew!

Well as they say, there is a time and place for everything.

My prognosis:

In ten or so years, right after the financial crisis has stabilized the health care crisis will begin.

The cost will be much higher.

[Faux Pas]

You can use hyperbolic rhetoric as much as you want dude,

What hyperbolic rhetoric? You mean asking that you prove your assinine statements with a shred of truth which you fail to provide? If you want to state it and believe it fine but be prepared back it up or simply quit presenting it. You are an intellectually lazy shill and I assume still spreading the thoughts of your ultra-liberal professors mantra and continuing to drink the kool-aid

but the fact of the matter is that your loony right politicians (and a few people here for that matter) are pointing to European national health systems as examples of how bad an all inclusive government run health system can be which is patently ridiculous for those of us actually living here and reaping the many benefits

.

If your system is being pointed at as the system to avoid perhaps you should insist your fine upstanding government that you trust, correct that less than stellar image. Instead you want to vilify and denigrate those that don't agree with you and label them "loony right politicians"

They along with their pet news outlets lie and exaggerate like crazy to mislead you guys to further their own agenda. Wake up and smell the BS they are feeding you.

Which news outlets SJ? What lies and exaggerations  exactly? Please be specific. I would have thought you grandoise scholars of Norway would have known that ALL news outlets provide slanted information with hopes of furthering it's agenda and they do ALL have them. You should be smart enough to question authority and think for yourselves rather than living your sheeple existence

As for not trusting your government; well, why doesn't that surprise me. Over here, bad or corrupt governments tend not to last very long; it's called democracy and accountability. I thought you guys knew about that?

Governments are bad from their very nature. Name me a good government where individual rights are paramount? You chose to pound your chest and claim your European style of health care is superior. Fine, we're happy for you but nobody is trying to change your health care.

As I mentioned earlier, the issue of healthcare has far reaching implications into the American way of life where we still have a high premium on the freedom to choose than do apparently the Europeans. Most Americans strive for less government intervention in private lives. For us health care and medical decisions are between the patient and doctor. We don't need government involved in that decision.

The Obama administration has taken over Banking, auto industry, insurance and now looking for the health care system. It's obvious you can't connect the dots here. It's about the money but it's not about the money to insure the 15% that are currently uninsured. It is about controlling the financial resources of such a large entity for eventual rape, rob and pillage at the expense of the current system. Just as social security was. Your posts on this subject and specifically with me point to partisan politics and while that is the face of it, it isn't scratching the surface.

The US Administration has the votes in both the house and the senate to make it happen but, they can't because of the non-partisan politics involved. They are scared to death they won't be reelected because as a nation, we don't want it.

All federal employees which includes all the politicians will keep their current plan and not subject to the new National Health care, do you know why?

[Vaughn]

The thought of allowing a bureaucrat to select my proctologist gives me the chills...

[krimster]

Norwegian public drug education web site
www.justsay.no

[BC]

The thought of allowing a bureaucrat to select my proctologist gives me the chills...

I doubt loosing freedom of choice would be in Obama's mix.  Must say with our socialized services here I haven't found a professional female proctologist yet.  Have you had better luck?

[Vaughn]

No better luck here, BC, but I won't elect to trust my chances to a clerk...  from what I read and hear, Italy
is the shining star of European socialized medicine, with the Scandinavian nations not far behind.

My faith in Uncle Sam duplicating such efficiency is sorely lacking, given his record of mismanagement.
If they would just concentrate on the real root problem - the profit motive of insurance providers- much
of this "disaster" would quietly go away.

[BC]

No better luck here, BC, but I won't elect to trust my chances to a clerk...  from what I read and hear, Italy
is the shining star of European socialized medicine, with the Scandinavian nations not far behind.

My faith in Uncle Sam duplicating such efficiency is sorely lacking, given his record of mismanagement.
If they would just concentrate on the real root problem - the profit motive of insurance providers- much
of this "disaster" would quietly go away.

Efficient?.. have to chuckle at that.. when my wife goes to RU she takes a nice little bag of medicine with her.. the doc started printing the state paid Rx's but I told him to stop and do private Rx instead.. This same doc treated both MIL and FIL during their visits, no charge.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that even with state run medicine, there is waste.. a big box of unused med's in our cabinet is testament thereof, but at least it shows that a little medical luxury can be had at somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the costs paid by folks in the US. Nothing is perfect, but what works, works.

Yes, follow the money.. there obviously is enough to lead the way..

[55North]

You can use hyperbolic rhetoric as much as you want dude, but the fact of the matter is that your loony right politicians (and a few people here for that matter) are pointing to European national health systems as examples of how bad an all inclusive government run health system can be which is patently ridiculous for those of us actually living here and reaping the many benefits. They along with their pet news outlets lie and exaggerate like crazy to mislead you guys to further their own agenda. Wake up and smell the BS they are feeding you.

As for not trusting your government; well, why doesn't that surprise me. Over here, bad or corrupt governments tend not to last very long; it's called democracy and accountability. I thought you guys knew about that?

I agree with you SJ (well I would, wouldn't I), but I would say this.
 
No rational European (socialist or liberal even) would expect the US to ape any of the European systems per se, if only for constitutional and size reasons. .What we would expect is that, as ex-officio 'world leader' you would have the political and moral wherewithal and ability to construct, without rancour, a cradle-to-grave healthcare system for the 50 million or so that can't get adequate health insurance.  You would do this as the most religious Christian nation in terms of 'genuine' believers.  You would do this without insulting others countries, mostly allies in the field of battle, where all healthcare is run by the state(s)! 
 
Otherwise, how can you claim to be a world leader other than being rather large.  Humanity has surely to be the most fundamental issue for all of us.
 
Else, we're wasting our time here.

[OlgaH]

The thought of allowing a bureaucrat to select my proctologist gives me the chills...

Vaughn, by my own experience I can tell that it is not so bad to have a compulsory medical insurance and at the same time to have a choice to purchase a voluntary medical insurance choosing  an insurance company by yourself and of course to have a choice to chose a doctor .  

Compulsory medical insurance is simply a guarantee of constitutional rights of the citizens to free medical help (of course if the constitution has such article) regardless age, social status and preexisting medical conditions.   Illegals are not entitled to social medical programs.

A voluntary medical insurance is a guarantee of receiving of medical services  in addition to the medical services that prescribed in compulsory medical insurance programs.

 
  

[GQBlues]

Sanity begins to assert itself....

WASHINGTON – Bowing to Republican pressure, President Barack Obama's administration signaled on Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Whew!

If that gets finalized, chalk one up to the will of the majority. Now they can get down to the real issues, health care cost and illegal immigrants.

"What I am saying is the bottom line for this for the president is, what we have to have is choice and competition in the insurance market," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Sunday

How funny is that? That was what McCain had campaigned for that Obama said was never going to work. If any of you even remember, McCain even went so far as saying even intra-state competition is plausible in a competitive market, if not downright encouraged.

[SANDRO43]

Must say with our socialized services here I haven't found a professional female proctologist yet.

Neither have I. However, 4 years ago I entered a (totally free ) screening program for colon cancer that involved 2 colonscopies in consecutive years. It was offered at an 'accredited' hospital - and administered by a staff of 2 female gastroenterologists and 3 nurses, so I had a total of 5 women looking up there TWICE . 

[Misha]

Good response BF - unfortunately you are trying to reason with wimpy socialist
Euro and Canadian wusses..........you're wasting your time.... 

Well, the fact of the matter is that Canadian "wusses" have a decent health care system that is cheaper (as % of the total GDP), covers everybody, and is much more efficient (much less paid to administer health care than in the United States). If those are are the benefits of being a "wuss," I will proudly wear that epithet 

[Faux Pas]

Politics and religion are two subjects near verboten to discuss at RWD but this topic lends itself to more discussion with the more recent events. This thread had some passionate and heated discussion 4 years ago when Obamacare was nothing more than 2 foot thick Bill that was passed in the House, the Senate and most of our lawmakers hadn't even read it. There were a few supporting and against it and there was even quite a few of our brethren across the ocean even chiming in on a system that was supposedly modeled after their own national health care systems. The initial outlook of Obamacare isn't fairing to well. Keep in mind it was suppose to provide insurance to 30 million Americans that did not have it. It is estimated 3 million to date have been canceled due to Obamacare with an estimated 80 more million by this time next year. Those that are actually getting signed up are paying on average of 52% more. Another example of government run amok.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/26/evidence-shows-obama-administration-predicted-tens-millions-would-lose-plans/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/11/25/mark_halperin_obamacare_contains_death_panels.html

What say you now?

[GQBlues]

...What say you now?

Archives are such a wonderful thing, are they not? 

I remember this thread all too well and the passionate debate within it. Brings to mind how wonderful and prophetic Blues Fairy really was with many of the points she made in this thread in light of this healthcare debacle...

As for the saga of Obamacare, there's still lingering oh-btw-I-forgot-to-mention revelation oozing out of this law in addition to what many of the 5 million folks who got their healthcare coverage cancelled so far....

The union bosses are asking the DC clown to levy a tax exemption on their behalf - within the law.

The Marketplace private insurance companies are scheduled to received 3 years of government subsidies in the event they report loss on any given year.

That 80 million more you mentioned are actually people who are receiving coverage through their employers which is believed to unravel by October 2014.

I don't care anymore. I just hope those folks who put this clown into office are the ones who get hurt the most.

[Daveman]

I don't believe this unconstitutional piece of shit will fly very far.  Obama is a complete, utter, and total scumdick of a president, however, he's not the only one to blame for this mess....

We should also begin mass recall petitions/elections for all representatives who voted to shove this piece of crap down our throats.

[pokerintherear]

Oh yes, the archives are great.

It shows how ill informed (uneducated) people are. Its on full display with many members of the forum.

[pokerintherear]

I remember this thread all too well and the passionate debate within it. Brings to mind how wonderful and prophetic Blues Fairy really was with many of the points she made in this thread in light of this healthcare debacle...

When I grow up I want a woman with a mind like hers.

[Faux Pas]

I don't care anymore. I just hope those folks who put this clown into office are the ones who get hurt the most.

That's not going to happen. As per usual it will be you, I and the rest of the working American taxpayer hurting the most. My PPO premium through the work place increase 23%. I expect this time next year, it'll likely be canceled.

I don't believe this unconstitutional piece of shit will fly very far.  Obama is a complete, utter, and total scumdick of a president, however, he's not the only one to blame for this mess....

We should also begin mass recall petitions/elections for all representatives who voted to shove this piece of crap down our throats.

There needs to be a grass roots initiative that really takes hold to oust all incumbents  for the next 2 elections and a repeal of all laws that exempt lawmakers from the laws that govern the rest of us. Of course then both the Right and the Left would call it the KKK, Teabaggers or some such

[GQBlues]

That's not going to happen. As per usual it will be you, I and the rest of the working American taxpayer hurting the most. My PPO premium through the work place increase 23%. I expect this time next year, it'll likely be canceled....

Yeah, outright cancellation is apparently on the horizon as this law have more holes in it than LA's Randy's Donut shop. So those who thought they were safe because of their employer provided insurance coverage are also getting booted.

"Just pass the bill so we'll know what's in it" Funny, funny stuff, man. It would be intersting to see exactly how Obama manages to convince Congress to amend the law for the Union's tax exemption request AND allow for the cancellation of what can almost be 90 million American's insurance coverages.

...There needs to be a grass roots initiative that really takes hold to oust all incumbents  for the next 2 elections and a repeal of all laws that exempt lawmakers from the laws that govern the rest of us. Of course then both the Right and the Left would call it the KKK, Teabaggers or some such...

Nah---never. Too much money and power to be had to have something like that enforced in DC.

[Faux Pas]

Nah---never. Too much money and power to be had to have something like that enforced in DC.

True. But, it is desperately needed. It has long passed time to throw them all out and start again. Those 545 are the only problems facing America today

[Daveman]

True. But, it is desperately needed. It has long passed time to throw them all out and start again. Those 545 are the only problems facing America today

For starters:


Let's begin with Capitol Hill Dormitory, with 535 units... secondly, while serving the people, any and all personal assets are frozen, and a salary based on the national average is paid and each must live solely from that salary - just like "the people", any votes missed will result on a dock of pay. The congress shall receive zero government benefits including health care or retirement.  There will be zero prestige - there is no more "distinguished senator".. there is only, for example, "we now recognize the pompous self serving jack-ass from Massachusetts"