suggestions

[Daveman]

Elenas and a couple other agencies guys recommend are probably the least bad I absolutely agree, but, there is still a profit motive.  Why should a guy subject himself to that when there is an alternative that eliminates that risk, guarantees he is communicating with the lady in the photo and doesn't cost anything?

Would you mind elaborating on that a little? How is it guaranteed?

[Simoni]

Sculpto:

It appears that you have a one size fits all mentality or view of the word "agency."  In reality, they are vastly different.

Do you know how much money Cindy Agency collected from me to introduce me to my future wife?

Twelve dollars.  That was the cost of the three letters at four bucks each.  When I arrived she met me and we never had any further contact with the agency, except to think them after we were engaged.

Yes, guys need to be aware of the agency rules and be sure they are dealing with an honest agency that allows direct contact between the guys and dolls.  But if they have read Commandment # 3, Work to eliminate any agency from your communications, then they know this.

Look, there are serious problems with scammers on free personals.  There is no agency to approve their profiles or to make sure they do not scam.  A good agency HAS to do this in order to protect their good reputation.

Twelve bucks was a bargain to me; I'm glad I used an agency.

I'm happy for others that achieved the same results via different pathways.

There are multiple avenues to success...

[Sculpto]

Would you mind elaborating on that a little? How is it guaranteed?

webcam.  that eliminated all doubt.. get the girl on the cam.. and call her up..

[Sculpto]

Sculpto:

It appears that you have a one size fits all mentality or view of the word "agency."  In reality, they are vastly different.

Do you know how much money Cindy Agency collected from me to introduce me to my future wife?

Twelve dollars.  That was the cost of the three letters at four bucks each.  When I arrived she met me and we never had any further contact with the agency, except to think them after we were engaged.

Yes, guys need to be aware of the agency rules and be sure they are dealing with an honest agency that allows direct contact between the guys and dolls.  But if they have read Commandment # 3, Work to eliminate any agency from your communications, then they know this.

Look, there are serious problems with scammers on free personals.  There is no agency to approve their profiles or to make sure they do not scam.  A good agency HAS to do this in order to protect their good reputation.

Twelve bucks was a bargain to me; I'm glad I used an agency.

I'm happy for others that achieved the same results via different pathways.

There are multiple avenues to success...

That is fantastic Simoni.  I wish I had known about that agency when I was still willing to use agencies.  is this them?  http://www.cindyagency.com/

I didn't even find this forum until I did a scam search.  Todays google results for the search "russian women" brings up over 30 million results.  Cindy agency was around 40th place.  RWD comes in two spots lower.  I have my google set to show me 100 results on one page.. but for most users that do not change their google prefs that means the third or fourth page.  besides, I usually don't scroll down that far in any search and I remember when I was searching for a new agency I became frustrated with the sheer volume of them.. there is no way to tell the difference just from looking at their front pages.  Then you hit "Jim's" and the scam alarms go off but who doesn't think, oh I am smart enough, they can't scam me?!?!

Vkontakte and the other web 2.0 venues I have investigated are not full of scam girls.  There might be an occasional porno SPAMMER, but, no scammers that I encountered.  freepersonals might be a different story.  I just like the idea that the ladies have their own computers, many have already traveled outside the FSU, most speak English at a surprisingly high level and no 3rd parties are involved in the relationship at any level.  I developed many friendships when I was actively searching and several of them continue as online friendships.  I would also point out that when I have mentioned marriage agencies to ladies I know on social networking sites the typical response, after a bit of laughing about it is, "you know they all criminals don't you?" or, "that for loser girls".  On one of the social networks there are a lot of Phils girls that work on web cams.. they get labelled cam girls on their own pages very quickly.  Its really hard for a scammer to operate on one of those sites because there is too much public information.

Just some things to keep in mind when looking at the myriad of options available.  I would also remind everyone that the internet is a constantly evolving media.  Ten years ago when AOL was king, who would have thought that today AOL would be basically washed up and at least two generations of social contact methods have come and gone since.  As of today it is possible to verify is someone is "invisible" or really signed off in messenger, backtrace email addresses and locate every web 2.0 site a person is a member of, find their blogs, forum postings and all kinds of other information.. it is all available within two or three clicks for free.  so, again, why bother using an agency that might interfere, might be writing letters for your future beloved, and is probably only out to make a buck? 

Maybe I should start a thread on how to use social network sites and verify girls?

[ECOCKS]

For clarity's sake when reading about scammers, it should be understood that there are two different "types" which do not allow for a one strategy exposes all method of checking.

The first is the one which is the most commonly thought of, even being encountered in the US these last few years as the Internet craze expanded. In these the scammer can be anybody who uses the appropriate bait - pictures of models, glamorous resumes, attractive locations or financial circumstances. These fit the above discussion and getting them into a cam session or face-to-face with a trusted party certainly exposes the scam quickly.

In the second type, the actual person pictured is the scammer and is leading you along, pulling your strings with stories of how much they wish they could come see you if only they had visa money, travel expenses, someone to care for their ailing father, etc. These gals have no intention of actually entering into a serious,long-term relationship and regard this activity as either a job in itself or a lucrative sideline. In these, webcams and face-to-face meetings do nothing to expose the scam in progress. For this second type, you need your good judgment (and the rest of the commandments), along with your in-person meetings and visits to reach solid decisions as to the credibility of the gal.

There is NO guarantee whether you are dating a gal from Sumy or Omaha.

[Simoni]

...when I have mentioned marriage agencies to ladies I know on social networking sites the typical response, after a bit of laughing about it is, "you know they all criminals don't you?" or, "that for loser girls".

Being that I just told you that I met my wife via an agency, I'm surprised you would come back with such an insensitive remark.  My first response was "what was he thinking?"  But I'll just conclude that you were not thinking...and did not mean it the way it sounds.

The dating agency I mentioned has attracted many smart, talented and beautiful girls.  Success builds success.   Marina signed with them simply because several of her friends had success with them.  Now that she is happily married and has a baby, many more of her friends are using the same dating agency.   So no-- loser girls does not apply.  The many guys on this site that know my wife will tell you that, too. I think you must have just fallen into a hornets nest of uniformed and bitter RW.  Good luck getting out!

[Simoni]

And as I have said many times before, there are many avenues to success and one size does not fit all.

And the truth is most agencies are dishonest, or an out and out scam.  That is why it's important to listen to word of mouth testimony before you use an agency.  I can name four or five good ones.  I found this one because an RWD member had dated girls on their site and recommended them to me.  Most agencies that advertise and lure men with sexy pics are scam agencies, and should of course be avoided.

Ecocks--- good post on the different types of scammers.

[Sculpto]

Simoni, my comment was never intended to be a slam in any way.  I was simply relaying what I have heard, repeatedly, from a lot of ladies who were not using agencies.  Think of it being something like the stigma that exists here in the US of men who got to Russia to find a wife.  There is a stigma on both ends.  The reality is, the number of women in agencies is a very small percentage of the overall number of available women. 

Anyway, sorry if you were offended, that wasn't my intent.

[Simoni]

Apology accepted.

In reality, agencies are just another method of social networking, and girls that have profiles on Cindy, for example, also have profiles on EM and free sites, too.

It's just a way of increasing ones chances of meeting the right person.

It is true that many girls have negative feelings toward international dating, as you have stated.

That is why in one sense an agency like Cindy, that has many profiles of men from the West, attracts the right demographic of women; women who are willing to consider a foreign man.

[Sculpto]

women who are willing to consider a foreign man.

That is exactly my point about social networks.  If a lady is on an international social network it is because she IS interested in meeting PEOPLE from other countries.  I have encountered profiles that specifically said "no foreigners"

However, I am glad that you can advocate for Cindy so highly.  Yours would be one of the first unequivocal endorsements I have ever heard of. 

[Simoni]

That is exactly my point about social networks.  If a lady is on an international social network it is because she IS interested in meeting PEOPLE from other countries.  I have encountered profiles that specifically said "no foreigners"

However, I am glad that you can advocate for Cindy so highly.  Yours would be one of the first unequivocal endorsements I have ever heard of. 

Well, if you look back into this thread, it was Gator who first suggested the agency.

And my endorsement is not unequivocal.  But I have spent almost a year in Dnerp through the last five years, and keep running into guys who are using that agency and are very happy with it.   There are other RWD connections also-- AJ on this site is friends with the couple that own the agency.

Look-- it boils down to this. You were saying "don't use agencies."  From the very first post, i was saying "use every option available."   Free sites, Russian dating sites, agencies, ads, everything.  All of them have their pros and cons.

[Sculpto]

Look-- it boils down to this. You were saying "don't use agencies."  From the very first post, i was saying "use every option available."   Free sites, Russian dating sites, agencies, ads, everything.  All of them have their pros and cons.

yes you are correct in saying that I am heavily biased against agencies.  You have read about what I went through.  I was a sucker plain and simple.  I hate to see anyone else get taken that way.  That has to be the silver lining for me.. simply enjoying helping others not make the mistake I made.

[MatryoshkaMan]

Xmans post had me contemplating just how hard this road to can be to travel from start to finish. Its kind of discouraging to think that he has made 6 trips over there and nothing really to show for it. It makes a person think hard about life and whether or not the dream of a RW is too good to be true or not. I have had great luck in finding RW so I am not sure if Xman's problems are typical or the exception. The 1st time I went to Ukraine in 2000 I came back a married man. And in round #2 I have been thrilled at just how easily I have met women that I am attracted to in all ways - looks, personality, goals, etc. Hopefully my 4th trip to the FSU this fall will be a great one and I will come home an engaged man!

[myrddin]

Seems to me it's best to keep all avenues open, like Simoni says.  I met my gf through an agency, but I tried several other methods.  They key is to learn the potential pitfalls of each to maximize your chances, but there's definitely an irreducible element of luck.  Which is true of all romantic pursuits.  FWIW I expect social networking sites will hurt agencies, but some will adapt to the new market.

I've been involved in this less than 2 years, but I sense some of that change.  Only a few years ago, online dating in the West had its own stigma, which I don't see much of anymore.  Maybe some stigma about seeking foreigners will last longer, but to me only a handful of people's opinions really matter - those closest to you.

I only see a few basic choices in pursuing a mate: give up, live life with eyes open waiting for fate, or keep looking.  Best of luck, Xman, I hope you find success soon!

[groovlstk]

Xmans post had me contemplating just how hard this road to can be to travel from start to finish. Its kind of discouraging to think that he has made 6 trips over there and nothing really to show for it.

If you were to date and romance six women in your own country, would you be disappointed if you didn't marry one of them? If not, why do you think it is different in Russia or Ukraine?

I have had great luck in finding RW so I am not sure if Xman's problems are typical or the exception.

If you're not prepared to put in the time, effort, and $$ and wish to do this in the easiest and least painful way possible, you're setting yourself up for monumental failure.

And in round #2 I have been thrilled at just how easily I have met women that I am attracted to in all ways - looks, personality, goals, etc. Hopefully my 4th trip to the FSU this fall will be a great one and I will come home an engaged man!

Have you actually MET any of these round #2 women in person yet?

[Gator]

Hopefully my 4th trip to the FSU this fall will be a great one and I will come home an engaged man!

Wow!  We are in the presence of greatness - a man who can tell everything about a woman in one week, including how she would connect with him in marriage.

Some time ago, KenC coined a term for such a man:  OWW (one-week wonder).

MM, you have a lively personality, a live wire (a compliment) and such people tend to decide intuitively and quickly.  While some OWW were successful over the long term, must have eventually regretted their decision.  There is something called a culture and language barrier on top of being a stranger.  Also, when did you divorce from your wife?  I ask to learn if you are still in a rebound - a vulnerable and dangerous phase in a man's life.  Take your time, dude.

[Gator]

However, I am glad that you can advocate for Cindy so highly.  Yours would be one of the first unequivocal endorsements I have ever heard of. 

I spent 10 days in Dinepro and Kharkiv, mostly using Cindy Agency services.  I spent time in their offices and observed how they worked.  I used a couple of their interpreters and discussed how things were done (an interpreter got paid less than $1 to write a woman's letter to a man).  I met several UW.   All the women were genuine and sincerely interested in marriage to a foreigner, although a couple were too desperate for my tastes and thereby raised a question whether any man who walked through the Cindy doors was acceptable. 

[dokrog]

xman, mm, lot's of good advice here. I can hardly add to it. I suppose it's all preference. I have noticed that some posters have a tendency to take umbrage at conceived remarks which just proves they didn't fully read previous posts and are in defensive mode protecting their "advice". LOL

My case I thought was typical. I settled on Russian women for a variety of reasons. One of which was I had been going there since the early 80's (yep back in the ol' USSR days) and quickly realized there wasn't a lot to do there really but drink and screw. Which suited me just fine. I had a couple friends that married Russian women and they were doing pretty good. I had gotten divorced from a maniacal AW (got full custody of our son which should tell you guys and girls what a piece of work she was), a couple years previous and hadn't had a lot of luck dating AW for one reason or another. One of the biggest reasons was my son.

I settled on Maxim's agency in yoshkar ola. Good man and I think good agency. Initially wrote to a dozen women, narrowed it down to 4 by the second letter then 1 by the 4th. Corresponded for roughly 5 months then went over there and married her. That was over 9 years ago gentlemen, and 2 more kids.


cont..

[dokrog]

My point to all this rambling is similar to what others have said already. Speaking from experience, there are always exceptions of course, I've found that most russian women "prefer" someone close to their own age but are willing to go up to 10-12 years older. There are and always will be exceptions to that. I'm simply stating what hundreds of friends and relatives have told me in the wee hours of the night. Most Russian women in my experience prefer a man that doesn't drink excessively. An oxymoron I know but it's the truth. Most prefer a man to make most decisions. Like where to eat, where to go. A take charge "type". Most Russian women also prefer a man that can at least somewhat speak their language even if it's just a little bit. Most of you do I'm sure. After all, if you are really willing to fall in love with her why wouldn't you learn her language? Most Russian women I've talked to that are interested in western men want to be assured they'll be able to visit russia frequently. Whatever you do DO NOT tell them they may only be able to visit once a decade. Most Russian women want to know you have "means". That you can support them.. By the time their 25 most have already been married once and divorced or seperated and their tired of being the spouse that works while their "man" is layed off and drunk with his buddies. If your going to send them pictures make darn sure their current and show you doing something, an activity, whatever. Don't send them an old olan mills pic of you back when you were in your prime. Above all. Think of them being "at least" as smart as AW but with a lot more street smarts. They need them there to survive. Your only fooling yourself if you think your fooling them.

[Gator]

Dokrog,

Excellent insights.  Please stay RWD around and post some more. We need some experienced members. And 9 years of marriage places you near the top in experience.

Is your wife in Yoshkar Ola and you got some time on your hands? I say that because a number of married men at RWD post more when wife has returned to the FSU.

[dokrog]

I guess xman if I had to do it over again and knowing what I do now I would go the same route yet slightly different. Allow me to explain.

I would contact an agency that I thought was reliable but was really a best guess. Take the advice of those who have been successful. I would have a heart to heart with them. Trust me I know dozens (ask me why...LOL) and they've heard it all. I would show them very current pictures of myself in a variety of settings and answer their questions very truthfully. I would plan on 2 trips. The first for no more than 10 days to 2 weeks in the middle of summer. I would arrange to sponsor a picnic at the local river or lake. Will not cost you more than 200USD or so max or they are truly ripping you off. Where you can meet all the ladies that the agency feels might be interested in you. If asked on age tell them that after viewing your images to use their best judgement, that you are open. Make the picnic for the entire agency along with the ladies. You buy the meat and drink and they bring along side dishes. Trust me they live for this. Buy your beer and vodka and soda and wine at a local wholesale house. Do NOT let the agency buy it. It will be 4 times as expensive. Minimum. Do NOT change your USD for Rubles at the bank use a local "money changer". Better exchange rates and ALL the girls know them. Above all, don't be scared. This is a fun and exciting time. Just go to have fun. When figuring alcohol take the agencies estimate on how many bottles to buy (or rather cases). Or...find out how many men will be going, figure how much you could possibly drink and tripple it.

[dokrog]

cont... short posts. jeez.

Go on the picnic and just relax, have fun, drink, and meet people. Get to know them and let them get to know you. The girls that are interested will tell the agency and the agency will tell you.

Go home!

Correspond, web cam if possible. Get to know her ideas, her beliefs, her superstitions. All that. Let her talk. You listen.

Go back 4 to 6 months later. By then you'll have narrowed it down to one trust me. One will stand out. Or none of them will. Marry the wench! Have a couple of kids quick. Take her back to Russia every year to visit her folks and show off the kids. They are really huge on that one. Attached is a couple pics. Things they love to do. The 3rd is my wife and kids. Above all. relax and simply have no pressure fun. Enjoy yourself. It'll happen.

[dokrog]

Almost forgot xman. When buying meat. Go to the market in the early morning when their setting up. It's fresh then. Don't let the sight of blood scare you off on the chicken and pork. The girls will wash it trust me. And this way you know it's very fresh. Take their advice every time on buying meat. Their still alive right?

[dokrog]

Last bit of advice xman.

Russian women think american men especially are impatient. Your and active kind of guy. Slow down. Simply relax when there. Don't worry about being late for something. who cares? They don't! And they'll be watching you very closely indeed. Take it in stride, shrug it off and laugh about it. Have another single malt. Then suggest somewhere else to go if you can't get in to whereever your late for. It will happen but rarely. Women don't like to run there. Ever! They stride while showing off.

[BC]

Ya know, we men can be very inept at letting life do what it does best for us.

Since the beginning of time, men and women have formed partnerships without much need to rely on others to do it for us.  Nature seems to take care of this aspect quite well requiring little if any effort on our part.  Evidence for this is that humankind has survived for quite a while now without, or maybe only very limited need for third party influences. There are some that would argue otherwise, saying i.e. that in the wild west women were often recruited for relationships, but in essence what was really being asked was that the women go places they really didn't want to in the first place. This remains quite true even today.  I wonder if the motives back then were any different as it relates to this whole RW thing.

First, I think one should realize that partnerships of any type are not built to last.  If they do, it's great, but don't get your panties bunched if things don't work out.

Second, society in many ways has turned into a great self satisfaction machine, driven by the need for instant gratification.

I want it all I want it all I want it all and I want it now.
-Queen

Third, I believe most should realize that there are Natural limitations imposed upon us whether we like it or not,  and that attempting to artificially influence the lives of those around us is like swimming upstream.  You can't force someone to have a relationship with you.

The OP and many others that hang around these halls would probably be just as well off in the long run by simply being patient, getting out of their four walls and more into their local social circles.

Some of the 'wisdom':

'Be yourself' - Well if I'm a couch potatoe, then that's what I am.. squeezing my butt into a little seat on an airliner ain't going to help.
 
'RW are different' - Yeah, right.. but in many ways you aren't expecting.

'RW are more traditional' - most will agree this is total BS nowdays, but it is still being harped quite effectively by modern day Pied Pipers.

'RW are more sexually open' - so are most women across the border.

'RW accept a greater age gap' - also a myth debunked over and over, but remains a 'hot' topic.  Yes, old men like young women.. a common fetish.

'RW are more mature' - than who?? -so were our mothers.. they fed us, hugged us and loved us unconditionally.  We miss that.

'RW are more educated' - an artifact of the past, when hard work and study were essential to escape the whip.

'RW are more worldly' - are you?


I guess what I'm trying to point out is that in the grand scheme of things, chances are actively seeking a RW for the purpose of marriage will not work out.

Those single women heading off to the wild west were likely less interested in true romance than..  you guessed it.. the gold rush.  Their modern day sisters aren't that different except that maybe they are smarter and have more return options.  The men.. well.. we haven't changed one iota.