Mauled and Massacred by Marriage Minded Malicious Mayans!

[mies]

I was NOT a topic starter, and I did not give this topic its name

 

:evil:

For me the real test will be when we go to visit my adopted family in Southern Mexico.
...
"A" knows about this, and knows we will be going there and knows they are extremely poor.  Will she react with compassion?  Will she react with disgust?  Will she eat her beans with a corner of a tortilla like they do and I will, or, will she freak out when she realizes there are no forks?  She is a woman who has demanded that I respect her culture, will she be able to give the same respect when she is a visitor and experiencing something that is completely outside of her realm of experience.  

Sculpto, centuries pass, but human nature remains the same and nothing is more true than old fairytales... why do you want so badly to test her?

i once had a colleague, who was a great person, and he sort of fell in love with me. Or at least so he told me. He then told me about his method of finding a good girl. He needs to test a woman whether she will stay with him, follow him in everything he does. And he gave me an example - he went camping for a day with bunch of people and his gf. They didn't have tents or sleeping bags - only sitting pads. Then my colleague decided to stay overnight and offered it to everybody. Nobody supported the idea, and the girl decided to go home too. My colleague told me that was the end of his romance because "she didn't pass the test - she'd chosen comfort over him".

Though I understand his general romantic idea, I could not support him. I told him I would not stay with him over night either. He was insulted. So i had to explain that I have a health condition in which sleeping on a cold ground in the forest at night will jeopardize my health and life. And this risk is too high for me. I am ready to live with a man i love, but I am not ready to die for caprice of a guy i'm dating. I look and act perfectly healthy, and nobody would guess that I have certain limitations in my abilities. Because I live in civilized society, and don't have to sleep on the ground or eat sh-t - I don't have any health issues normally. I like risk in life. But I am not going to risk my life in such a dull way. There are better, more exciting, and much more fun ways to shorten my life than sleeping in the forest at night.

You need to be more understanding of other people's basic needs, not only of your romantic dreams. I understand that everybody is egoist, but if you want to live with another human, you need to moderate your egoism at least to some extend.

I hope you will at least make sure that sanitary conditions in the place you live will be acceptable and she won't contract hepatitis or dysentery and will not get some of local pests in her body.

[groovlstk]

I think I present a view of things that is radically different than what many people on this forum have experienced in their lives.  My life HAS been radically different.  How many people do you know that speak passable Mayan?  Nevertheless, I think in some cases there is a certain wish for a lot of patting on the back and and viewing the world in very concrete terms.  I bust that up and present things that are too far outside of what most people consider normal. 

Sculpto, you're not the first member here to espouse an "alternative" perspective to the supposedly rigid and myopic attitude of the general membership. The funny thing is that in the years I've been here, guys who claim to be different in this manner have always used this as a mask while they rationalize and justify bad behavior on the part of their girlfriends/fiancees. Look up the adventures of posters Caulfield and Photoguy.

[kievstar]

I know nothing about women from Russia but I do know a lot about women in Eastern and Southern Ukraine.  I have never met one that likes to eat or sleep in a dirty environment.  Sleeping on the floor is dirty.  My advise is do not be upset if she does not adjust all at once and really watch her body language. Also, if she eats her beans with a fork is that really an issue.  Maybe you should bring a fork in case she needs one. 

[Daveman]

I know nothing about women from Russia but I do know a lot about women in Eastern and Southern Ukraine.  I have never met one that likes to eat or sleep in a dirty environment.  Sleeping on the floor is dirty.  My advise is do not be upset if she does not adjust all at once and really watch her body language. Also, if she eats her beans with a fork is that really an issue.  Maybe you should bring a fork in case she needs one. 

 

I've been reprimanded extensively for allowing my jacket to touch the floor (ok, so I tossed it on the floor, in a corner when I walked in the door so I could do something else quickly)... good night.. you'd think I had shot the local priest.  She also told me about how A... I... D... S... (spelling it like that) can be on the floor... didn't like my comment that next time I'll wrap in a condom, but laughed like a nut while she told me how terrible I am. 

Then conversely, she thought me strange because I wouldn't let my food touch the table, e.g., placing my sliced bread on a napkin rather than on the table top surface after it had been "cleaned" with a sponge (ack)... my comment/joke of "maybe they had sex on the table too" fell on seemingly deaf but amused ears, because "The table is clean, the floor is not".. I say NAY! They are both dirty!   BUT she began using a napkin too... though she claimed she was doing it so we would "eat alike"..  :noidea:  

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, centuries pass, but human nature remains the same and nothing is more true than old fairytales... why do you want so badly to test her?

Good question Mies.  I don't want it "badly" as you say.  But, I do want to live in Mexico and that requires certain understandings and perspectives.  The small city where I wish to live in the process of getting UN status and is a very special place.  But, there remains grinding poverty in some places which makes doing development projects easy on one hand, and very difficult on the other.  "A" has said many many times that she works with the orphans in Russia and is active in building a better world.  So, I want to see first hand how she reacts in a difficult situation.  HOWEVER!  It is not a do or die scenario for the relationship.  Just a way to get to the bottom of things.

i once had a colleague, who was a great person, and he sort of fell in love with me. Or at least so he told me. He then told me about his method of finding a good girl. He needs to test a woman whether she will stay with him, follow him in everything he does. And he gave me an example - he went camping for a day with bunch of people and his gf. They didn't have tents or sleeping bags - only sitting pads. Then my colleague decided to stay overnight and offered it to everybody. Nobody supported the idea, and the girl decided to go home too. My colleague told me that was the end of his romance because "she didn't pass the test - she'd chosen comfort over him".

Though I understand his general romantic idea, I could not support him. I told him I would not stay with him over night either. He was insulted. So i had to explain that I have a health condition in which sleeping on a cold ground in the forest at night will jeopardize my health and life. And this risk is too high for me. I am ready to live with a man i love, but I am not ready to die for caprice of a guy i'm dating. I look and act perfectly healthy, and nobody would guess that I have certain limitations in my abilities. Because I live in civilized society, and don't have to sleep on the ground or eat sh-t - I don't have any health issues normally. I like risk in life. But I am not going to risk my life in such a dull way. There are better, more exciting, and much more fun ways to shorten my life than sleeping in the forest at night.

You need to be more understanding of other people's basic needs, not only of your romantic dreams. I understand that everybody is egoist, but if you want to live with another human, you need to moderate your egoism at least to some extend.

Oh I am Mies.. if I was going alone.. this is how things would be.. At the beach.. instead of staying in a beach front condo with air conditioning, sunset view balcony and modern kitchen, I would sleep on the beach for free, or, in a hammock for $2 a night.  In my historical city, instead of staying in a boutique hotel in an old colonial mansion in the center of town with beautiful antique furniture, concierge service, in room fireplace,  I would be staying in a rustic log cabin on the outskirts with no hot water.. at the jungle instead of staying in an eco lodge with spring fed swimming pools and a private zoo I would stay in a hammock in an open air palapa.  So, as you can see I have gone way out of my way to make sure she is comfortable.  If she decides she wants to try and rough it, I explained the differences, especially for the jungle where it will be hard for me to sleep indoors, then we will try it.  Otherwise, her comfort is far ahead of my custom and desire.  I am not trying to break her, I just want to know how well and fast she can adapt to new and what will probably seem to be strange things.

I hope you will at least make sure that sanitary conditions in the place you live will be acceptable and she won't contract hepatitis or dysentery and will not get some of local pests in her body.

Are you joking?  Even at my adopted families dirt floor kitchen things are immaculately clean, but, there is a lot of smoke and well, the floor is DIRT.  We will not be eating street food (also an in respect to her because normally that is all I eat) and I know where to eat wherever we will be going to be safe. 

[Sculpto]

rationalize and justify bad behavior on the part of their girlfriends/fiancees.

Are you still on that Groov?  She has been awesome for a very good amount of time now.  She was in a crisis, now she isn't and her behavior has been excellent.  I believe some of you do not want to see this relationship work out because it invalidates your opinions and feelings of being an expert.  Well, sorry groov, and you should know this more than most living where you do, not everyone is the same.  One size does not fit all.

[kievstar]

 

I got in trouble for kneeling on clean carpet in a nice bowling alley to put bowling shoes on.  Talking one knee and I had blue jeans on.  She thought what I did was the worst thing she could imagine.  Of course when it came to take the shoes off I did the same thing by accident.  Hard to break habits.  Luckily for me we were bowling with her RW friend and her American husband.  Her friend explained that AM love the floor and not a problem as AM have many clothes and clean them with a washer and dryer.

You should have seen her face in the Singapore airport where hundreds of Asians were sleeping on the carpeted floor.   I than told her I was going to join them as they looked comfortable.  This was about 3 days after the bowling incident.  

[Sculpto]

I know nothing about women from Russia but I do know a lot about women in Eastern and Southern Ukraine.  I have never met one that likes to eat or sleep in a dirty environment.  Sleeping on the floor is dirty.  My advise is do not be upset if she does not adjust all at once and really watch her body language. Also, if she eats her beans with a fork is that really an issue.  Maybe you should bring a fork in case she needs one. 

Kiev.. let me ask a question.. Have you found FSU people to sometimes be very particular about respecting customs?  Anyone else?

Mayans in Mayalandia do not use utensils.  The tortilla IS the utensil.  When we arrive in their house, a small wooden chair will magically appear.. there are only two chairs.  The chair will be offered first to her, "aqui es tu silla" and she will sit there.  They will then start bringing things.. a piece of fruit.. some sweets.. a drink.. they will insist she eats something hardy.. but.. since all they eat are tortillas and beans.. that is what they will offer.. to refuse is to offend.. they will offer the last bean they have to a special and honored guest.  I am family.. she is my guest and new family.. all the little kids will gather around her and touch her hair.. they will invite her to do "trensas" braids, like they have.. a young unmarried woman must have trensas.. the will admire her clothes.. even if she isn't wearing anything special.. they will immediately treat her as family.  After a little while they will drag her to the kitchen.. once they understand she doesn't know how to make tortillas...  they will teach her to make tortillas.. and if she is willing to learn by the end of the day they will be dressing her in Mayan traditional clothes and blessing her in their language.  If she is accepted like that.. they will insist on hosting and performing a traditional Mayan marriage for us and will spend every last penny they have to get a live turkey and a lamb, slaughter and prepare the animals and so on.. family members will be sent out to alert extended family that live in the hills.. the 105 year old Grandmother will walk one full day out of her little place high above San Cristobal valley to officiate the reception.  There will be no saying "NO" to any of this.  They have been trying to get me married for a long time.. I am the wayward son.. I have not brought a woman to their home in over 20 years... so they know, if I do, it is because I love her.  

Now, on the other hand.. if she is not received well.. or behaves badly.. after a short time.. they will ignore her and go about their normal business.  Later, when I go to see them alone.. they will say.. she has a bad heart.. not good woman for you Eric.

MM.. sorry your thread is getting off topic.

[groovlstk]

Are you still on that Groov?  She has been awesome for a very good amount of time now.  She was in a crisis, now she isn't and her behavior has been excellent.  I believe some of you do not want to see this relationship work out because it invalidates your opinions and feelings of being an expert.  Well, sorry groov, and you should know this more than most living where you do, not everyone is the same.  One size does not fit all.

Sculpto, I make no judgments about you or your fiancee. Just noting a phenomenon that I've witnessed here well before you arrived regarding the "I'm different" guys.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, I make no judgments about you or your fiancee. Just noting a phenomenon that I've witnessed here well before you arrived regarding the "I'm different" guys.

ok, fair enough.. groov.. if you ever get out here to SF.. look me up.

[KenC]

Are you still on that Groov?  She has been awesome for a very good amount of time now.  She was in a crisis, now she isn't and her behavior has been excellent.  I believe some of you do not want to see this relationship work out because it invalidates your opinions and feelings of being an expert.  Well, sorry groov, and you should know this more than most living where you do, not everyone is the same.  One size does not fit all.

Sculpto,
Believe it or not NO ONE here wants to see you fail.  it is just that we have seen many men come through here over the years with a similar story only to fall flat on their faces.  Of course, your situation could be the exception,but odds are not in your favor.
KenC

[Sculpto]

Ken.. I only bet when I know I will win.  These last two months she have been awesome.. the same beautiful, smart, sweet and funny girl that got me to go visit her in the first place.  WE managed to endure a really difficult period.. with the distance and have come out stronger. 

[Sculpto]

thanks Dave. 

[Makkin]

  Good fortunes and good results for you. (I'm hoping for)


Makkin

[Daveman]

thanks Dave. 

LoL... it's your thread, so you name it.. but for some reason that came to mind.    I think it's interesting... taking an FSUW to a Mayan village... definitely different.  What are some of her thoughts about it at the moment? What have you told her about it?  etc.  

[SANDRO43]

LoL... it's your thread, so you name it.. but for some reason that came to mind.  

Which goes to show how your Manic Moderator's Mind is Mightily, Moronically & Majestically Messed up, My Man   .

[Sculpto]

I like the name.

This is what she knows..

We are going to a historic colonial city that is surrounded by Mayan villages.  She knows about my school project and this family.  She has seen photos of all of them, and, in fact has seen photos of the barrio where they live.. they live in the flats but there is a shanty town that goes up the hill which is very clear in the background of one of the photos.  She knows it is very important to me that she meets these people, more important than meeting my blood family.  She knows they are Zapatista supporters and knows a little about the rebellion.  Beyond that.. I haven't told her much, except that they are poor and their house is not in very good condition.  She knows that Rosa, the third sister and the one I am closest to, will challenge her.  She has done a little reading on her own.. how much exactly I don't know.

I am hoping to arrange a visit to a rebel community.  That is basically impossible to do via the internet and will depend entirely on who is in town when we arrive and what the military situation is in the jungle.  As a journalist she is VERY excited to have the chance to do that so I hope i will be able to pull it off.  

[JR]

Here is something I have learned: when you "surprise" a woman with what you are proposing you have done not much more than race out ahead or yourself and pull up a few sections of tracks around the blind curve of a dangerous mountain pass. When the train derails and the whole thing ends up a bloody mess at the bottom of the gorge you'll be scratching your head and asking "what did I do wrong?"
You might mean this for some greater good but be respectful of her needs. Let her decided (beforehand) if she is ready to participate in the activities you are planning. Show her photos of how they eat and live. Be prepared to give her an out, ie: forks, spoons or a completely different venue of things to eat. Her system may not be capable of adapting the way yours is. Let her know they shower once a month and that she's expected to respect their valuation of water by not demanding to shower while she is there. Etc, etc, etc.
Be respectful of her needs. What will really happen is that you will fail her test. That is the test of considering, preparing for and attending to her needs. Think about this...

[mies]

Here is something I have learned: when you "surprise" a woman with what you are proposing you have done not much more than race out ahead or yourself and pull up a few sections of tracks around the blind curve of a dangerous mountain pass. When the train derails and the whole thing ends up a bloody mess at the bottom of the gorge you'll be scratching your head and asking "what did I do wrong?"
You might mean this for some greater good but be respectful of her needs. Let her decided (beforehand) if she is ready to participate in the activities you are planning. Show her photos of how they eat and live. Be prepared to give her an out, ie: forks, spoons or a completely different venue of things to eat. Her system may not be capable of adapting the way yours is. Let her know they shower once a month and that she's expected to respect their valuation of water by not demanding to shower while she is there. Etc, etc, etc.
Be respectful of her needs. What will really happen is that you will fail her test. That is the test of considering, preparing for and attending to her needs. Think about this...

JR - you are SO WISE and SO RIGHT

[mies]

She knows that Rosa, the third sister and the one I am closest to, will challenge her.  

challenge how? 
hmm.. it's getting more and more interesting

[Gator]

Sculpto,

What you have described as your experience with the Mayans is not total immersion.  It is merely between the experiences of a hippie homestay and a Peace Corps volunteer program.  So why do you suggest that this has been a near transformation that has changed your view of life.  Somehow I feel that you are being condescending, believing that your view is now so enlightened that mere mortals could never comprehend it. 

All you have experienced is a community of poor people living off the land.  That is what most poor people around the world do – live off the land.  Laotian hill tribes do it, Darfur nomads do it, etc.

Yes, you are able to see the world from a perspective not grasped by the typical American tourist; however, that does mean that we should adopt it.  Some of us have “been there, done that” and we are not ready to purge our creature comforts.  There is a reason why there is a market for creature comforts.

Do not expect your “A” to identify with this lifestyle and the spiritual values it gave you .  Maybe she will, yet I doubt it.  The average RW comes from a state of comfort somewhere between village Mayans and Americans.  During difficult times, some have lived close to the Mayan lifestyle and few liked it.  RW do not want to live in poverty, no matter how pure in spirit and brief it is.

If you are indeed captured by the Mayan spirit and wish to adopt it as your own, I suggest that you marry a Mayan woman, give your money to A’s orphanage, and burn your passport.   

Maybe one day we will see a movie about your life a la Christopher McCandless.

[Sculpto]

sorry had some internet issues for a little while..

I see your point Jolly..

Look.. we are staying in nice hotels and condos.. we will be eating in good places.. I am not going to take a chance that she gets a gut bug.  When we arrive in San Cris.. it will be two weeks into the trip.. one step out the door of the hotel and she will be confronted with a place that is unique around the world.  There are forty or more distinct ethnic groups that come to market in San Cris every day.  Last year there were close to a million visitors, more than half foreign. 

I asked her if she wanted me to tell her about the places we would be going in a lot of detail.  She declined and said she wanted to be surprised.  She has seen photos from my book so she has a little idea.  Her comment was.. "it beautiful".

Once we arrive in SCLC and she sees the Mayans everywhere I will explain to her in more detail about visiting my family. 

here are a couple videos of where we are going.

waterfalls
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san cris
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[Daveman]

Which goes to show how your Manic Moderator's Mind is Mightily, Moronically & Majestically Messed up, My Man   .

LoL! Manically Morose, Maniacally Macabre, Metaphorically Maudlin, Magnificently Megacephalic Mediating Maught  Megalomaniac!

challenge how? 
hmm.. it's getting more and more interesting

Mandatory Magnanimous Mud Mayhem!


Okay okay, I'll stop the insanity for a while..

Sculpto, JR is dead spot on up there.  Make sure she knows exactly what she's signing up for on this trip or it will really be you who fails the test -- or be ready to immediately change plans mid course and take her to one of the beautiful resorts down there.  I think it would be quite the interesting pilgrimage to the village, and she might think so as well, but still, you could possibly freak her out beyond repair with the shock value of some aspects.  Make sure she really understands what the situation is there, not only in the village, but the travel, the heat, the insects, all of it.  

Do you have a plan B? what would you do if she just isn't into any of that after you are there?

[Sculpto]

About Rosa..

When I first met Rosa she was 4 years old and being led around by her two older sisters selling crafts their mother and aunts made to the backpackers and occasional tourist bus that came to town.  Those three sisters formed the basis of my little school and after I left are the ones that kept it going.

Rosa in particular is really close with me.  As a child she spent more time with me than her own Father who was away most of the time working in other places.  Our friendship is difficult to explain to people, and, sometimes we don't even understand it.  

When Rosa grew up she married a fisherman and had a little girl with him.

When I come around Rosa is incredibly protective of me.  She is extremely intelligent and street wise.  She witnessed my biggest heartbreak and has often introduced me to other foreigners she has met.  Unfortunately none of those intros ever was a click.

"A" and Rosa have a lot in common.  They are both highly intelligent very strong women.  Rosa, more than any of the other sisters, will feel she has to scrutinize "A", the same way "A"s friends scrutinized me.  If Rosa decides she likes "A" and vice versa it will be a lifelong friendship.  If Rosa does not like "A" she will tell me and tell me why.  If "A" doesn't like Rosa it would suck, but, I doubt that will happen.  They have very similar personality types and I expect they will bond immediately.  "A" has seen photos of Rosa and her family from a birthday party for Rosa's daughter who has her birthday a day after mine.. she says she planned it that way so I would never forget.  lol.  If all goes well, which I am sure it will, the entire stay in Puerto will be enhanced by it.  her husband dives for lobsters and oysters for a living.. we will be eating really well..

But.. like I said.. she will challenge "A".  She will want to know every detail about everything.  "A" is really smart but she can be a bully.. I saw it in how she interacted with her friends.  There is no way she will be able to do that with Rosa.  Its just not going to happen.  So, I can't wait to see how things go between them.  But, as I said, I wouldn't be bringing her if I didn't feel confident.  

[SANDRO43]

LoL! Manically Morose, Maniacally Macabre, Metaphorically Maudlin, Magnificently Megacephalic Mediating Maught  Megalomaniac!

You've just mentioned Maught,
but you should've been taught,
it's not a good tense for May
- not the season for harvesting hay,
but the verb of dim possibilities,
except for who has disabilities
in his mind and his grammar.
May you rot in a slammer
for many a day and a night,
until you learn it's MIGHT .