I met a girl under special circumstances

[Stix]

I reviewed the EU Schengen non immigrant visa form - it mentions nothing about prostitution, and can't recall any such question when my wife immigrated here.  In fact, even a medical exam was not necessary.

The question about prostitution on the DS 156 OTOH really puzzles me.. as if they think this question will ever be honestly answered...

Lets just hypothesize that a former prostitute honestly answers 'yes' when applying for a K1.. what do you think will happen?  Will she get the visa?

BC I can only think that perhaps it was intended to keep a check on organized crime, since in some places, they have a big stake in prostitution-or the spread of venereal disease. But we already have plenty of both in the US, so you're right-there may be something else going on there. I do think those would be issues anyone considering marrying a former sex worker would also have to consider. The past is the past but some traces of the past can linger even when you are actively trying to put it behind you.

[Stix]

Aloe, you are very wise.
I also think that voting is too accessible to unqualified and immature people; they must at least pass a basic comprehension test to earn this right.  

Blues fairy,

Voting wouldn't be a right if people had to earn it. And who would get to decide who is unqualified or too immature? A major concept behind America (or at least what I thought I was defending when I was in uniform) is to make certain that everyone can easily access/exercise their rights-even if we don't agree with how they choose to use those rights.

That said, there is nothing wrong with using our rights to lobby/vote for higher standards in public schools, or, to mount a direct campaign to educate people about topics we feel are not being fully explored.

[Ininiteluck]

Well, I thank you all for picking up on this and appreciate all the answers despite the 'odd' topic. I spent about 5 weeks with this girl over a 4 month period and I can honestly say that I think she likes me. I spoke to her yesterday and made it clear that it would be hard for to get over the escort/prostitute issue... She said she understands and reminded me that she told me that she had difficulties committing to a serious relationship...She asked me if I would be able to live with the knowledge when she quits. I asked her if she would be able to change her lifestyle i.e. no more 'easy' money etc. She said she knew that she would have to sooner or later and she would rather start a new life with someone she really likes, start a family etc., than someone she thinks is ok but has loads of money. We decided that we would see eachother when she arrives in August  and take it from there.

who knows... maybe this the exception to the rule. Or not..

Thanks again

[BillyB]

She said she understands and reminded me that she told me that she had difficulties committing to a serious relationship...

That's the easy out excuse if she wants to break up in the future or move on to another man. You've been warned.

Ininiteluck, I hope things work out for the best. I'd seriously like to see your lady turn her life around but it's going to be an uphill battle. Words mean nothing. Action is what counts and if I were you, tell her to quit NOW and find a normal job. See if she can give you your wish over tens of thousands of dollars a month. She has to make a choice and the first move, not you.

I was graphic in many of my posts in this thread not because I'm putting down prostitutes but to see if YOU can handle ugly thoughts because that kind of stuff is hard to live with and hard to erase out of your head.

[Gator]

We decided that we would see eachother when she arrives in August  and take it from there.

who knows... maybe this the exception to the rule. Or not..

A reasonable decision considering that this woman means something to you, as you do to her.  Personally, I would be 100 times more concerned with what a woman did after we started a relationship vs. what she did before.

Based on this comment,

she told me that she had difficulties committing to a serious relationship

   

if and when she feels true love, you will know it.  Anything less and you should walk.

One caveat, a woman who enters into prostitution against societal norms and her mama's wishes must have some psychological issues.  Thus, you have some more exploring to do with her, to discover what is hidden in the closet.  I don't think you will be bored.

[mies]

it does seem very strange that you can drive (thus endangering many people) at 16, and you can vote thus affecting(endangering?) your country's fate at 18, but drink and endanger only yourself at 21

it does not really seem strange. Because more mature people can say "no" to the drink before driving. Younger people are often more careless, less responsible, less skilled/experienced in driving, and more likely to be partying heavily. So when they DUI - it can be a real disaster. Also - alcohol and substances have worse impact on younger bodies than on a completely formed bodies.

[Stix]

if I were you, tell her to quit NOW and find a normal job. See if she can give you your wish over tens of thousands of dollars a month. She has to make a choice and the first move, not you.

BillyB makes a good point regarding similar values. Is she quitting prostitution because she thinks it's wrong or just to make the relationship work? It's certainly an honor for a woman to make a lifestyle change for a man she loves-which will probably happen for those of us who are successful in our search as our women leave country and family behind to start a new life. But in the ups and downs of a relationship over the years, I think there's a greater chance of putting her past behind if you are both on the same page about it. Forgive me if I missed it during the earlier posts but does she like prostitution?

Ultimately, I also hope everything works out for the best.

[BillyB]

Forgive me if I missed it during the earlier posts but does she like prostitution?

That was not mentioned but the money is good and a motivating factor to what she does. The woman has been doing it for 10 years starting out when she vacationed in Turkey and was hired for a job waitressing. I'm sure the boss had other ideas for her and her friends that were hired. It was a matter of time before she was lured with money into another profession. Really not much different the the guy who lures RW with gifts and money to be his girlfriend and wife.

Besides money, sex can be an addiction for this woman and that can be a motivating factor too. Whether or not she can do it with only one man in a relationship(maybe boring for her) is the question the OP has on his mind. Trust is important to building a good relationship. She has yet to earn it.

[Gator]

The woman has been doing it for 10 years starting out when she vacationed in Turkey and was hired for a job waitressing.

It doesn't really change anything Billy, but she started the bar job in Turkey three years ago, not 10.  She first became an escort two years ago.

[BillyB]

Your're right Gator. For some reason I got 10 years stuck in my head. I think a woman getting out of commercial sex earlier in her prime is mentally healthy more than a woman that does it until she's forced out of the business by younger women. Maybe with the OP's woman, there is hope she understands she needs to get out now.

[BC]

Your're right Gator. For some reason I got 10 years stuck in my head. I think a woman getting out of commercial sex earlier in her prime is mentally healthy more than a woman that does it until she's forced out of the business by younger women. Maybe with the OP's woman, there is hope she understands she needs to get out now.

I really wonder if all the emotional baggage warnings are really warranted.

There seems to be no coercion, she was able to meet with the OP a number of times (a hardline 'boss' probably won't let this happen), has freedom of movement and ability to communicate with the outside world.  Considering the 'free will' and choice aspects I doubt emotional scarring, after all since when does sex alone, even a lot of it cause damage (disease aspects aside).. I also highly doubt 'salary' in the range stated, probably talking well under 5K considering massive competition, living expenses, commission and going nightly rates in TU where a couple hundred bucks and tipping the hotel concierge well will probably suffice for an all night outcall with a pretty FSU tart.  Of course if the OP is making up that difference somehow then a whole other ballpark is being played.  As far as lifestyle is concerned, I can imagine a young woman having a little difficulty giving up the all night partying and/or lounging around the hotel pool atmosphere, not to mention all trying to substitute for all the attention and indulgences she is used to receiving ..

I'd probably be much more worried about 'white knight syndrome' and other motivational aspects on both sides that are pushing this relationship forward.  My tip to the OP is to let the woman know that he is ready for a relationship, but that she will have to take the first step moving out of her current environs within an established time-frame, then drop or at least severely limit contact and see if she shows up.  Otherwise I think he would go (or is already going) nuts hearing 'next month' each time they do meet.  If she is serious about the relationship she'll walk, but that choice has to be hers alone.

[Sculpto]

I really wonder if all the emotional baggage warnings are really warranted.

There seems to be no coercion, she was able to meet with the OP a number of times (a hardline 'boss' probably won't let this happen), has freedom of movement and ability to communicate with the outside world.  Considering the 'free will' and choice aspects I doubt emotional scarring, after all since when does sex alone, even a lot of it cause damage (disease aspects aside).. I also highly doubt 'salary' in the range stated, probably talking well under 5K considering massive competition, living expenses, commission and going nightly rates in TU where a couple hundred bucks and tipping the hotel concierge well will probably suffice for an all night outcall with a pretty FSU tart.  Of course if the OP is making up that difference somehow then a whole other ballpark is being played.  As far as lifestyle is concerned, I can imagine a young woman having a little difficulty giving up the all night partying and/or lounging around the hotel pool atmosphere, not to mention all trying to substitute for all the attention and indulgences she is used to receiving ..

I'd probably be much more worried about 'white knight syndrome' and other motivational aspects on both sides that are pushing this relationship forward.  My tip to the OP is to let the woman know that he is ready for a relationship, but that she will have to take the first step moving out of her current environs within an established time-frame, then drop or at least severely limit contact and see if she shows up.  Otherwise I think he would go (or is already going) nuts hearing 'next month' each time they do meet.  If she is serious about the relationship she'll walk, but that choice has to be hers alone.

I agree BC.  A woman who has been doing that work for a decade long ago dealt with any guilt issues she had and would probably surprise most people at how well adjusted she is.  That is assuming she is not a doper or a drunk.  If she is healthy in that respect, she most likely sees her job as no different than any other job and might even like it.

I would also say.. and this might come as a surprise.. ex hookers are usually pretty vanilla sexually.  Unless they had a specific specialty fetish they they were into. 

If she has been disciplined with her profits, and it is very likely she has from what the OP said, she has not really been living high on the hog, but, living modestly and stashing the proceeds so she can build her house.  This fits with the women I knew, especially the one that has become a Broadway choreographer.  Her purpose in doing sex work was to buy herself the freedom to go to New York and not have to worry about money for 2-3 years so she could make contacts and try to get herself known.  She was able to do that.  Point is, some sex workers are actually very focused on the end game.

I also wonder about white night syndrome.. but the OP is the only one that can honestly answer that question.. and he really has to do it and be brutally honest with himself. 

[GQBlues]

.

[Stix]

It's hard to speak about "emotional baggage" or being "well adjusted" since judging by the various posts, we have different views of what these are and the problems they can cause in a relationship. Psychology isn't a true science in that we can never look into someone's mind and see exactly what they are thinking. If we could, one wonders would any relationships survive (LOL) And we certainly have different views of whether prostitution is just plain wrong. Still, even the voluntary nature of her involvement has potential problems, since if she willingly compartmentalizes sex as a commodity to be traded for money, will she continue to compartmentalize it to justify stepping out of the relationship from time to time? Sex for love with this guy, sex for money with this guy, sex for fun with this guy...My question remains has there been a change in the way she thinks about prostitution and the role of sex in a relationship that would allow her to be happy in a monogamous relationship. This could of course be applied to "players" as well.

[GoodOlBoy]

Forgive me if I missed it during the earlier posts but does she like prostitution?

Bingo Stix!.....I think you just asked the 6 million dollar question.

InLuck, if she does like it (prostitution), then you better walk run from her.


GOB


FWIW.....As long as she "likes" what she is doing (prostitution), you are screwed.

[Sculpto]

i know this will cause a sh!t storm.. but.. sex is sex.. it is not love.. there can be sex in love.. and loving sex.. but they are not required for one or the other to exist.  That is why, it is up to the OP to understand what his threshold and tolerance is.

[groovlstk]

i know this will cause a sh!t storm.. but.. sex is sex.. it is not love.. there can be sex in love.. and loving sex.. but they are not required for one or the other to exist.  That is why, it is up to the OP to understand what his threshold and tolerance is.

Scultpo, in the past when you were floating out your credentials to comment on sex slavery and prostitution, you remarked more than once about how screwed up the majority of women in these fields are. Drugs, suicide, impulsive behavior, etc. - why are you now assuming that this woman is unique without the tiniest shred of evidence?

I would bet that if the lady in question were here to defend herself most of the naysayers would be surprised at her intelligence and honesty.  Speculation on my part, but, I think she would tear most of these guys apart and use their ignorance to demonstrate how narrow minded and wrong they really are.

Defending the honor of a nameless woman (prostitute or not) is pretty noble, but since the chances of her ever reading this thread are pretty astronomical, why don't you advise the OP instead of jumping on your white horse?

FWIW, assuming that this woman is more "honest and intelligent" than the moral crusaders here is just plain silly.
 

[Sculpto]

Scultpo, in the past when you were floating out your credentials to comment on sex slavery and prostitution, you remarked more than once about how screwed up the majority of women in these fields are. Drugs, suicide, impulsive behavior, etc. - why are you now assuming that this woman is unique without the tiniest shred of evidence?

Defending the honor of a nameless woman (prostitute or not) is pretty noble, but since the chances of her ever reading this thread are pretty astronomical, why don't you advise the OP instead of jumping on your white horse?

FWIW, assuming that this woman is more "honest and intelligent" than the moral crusaders here is just plain silly.
 

Good questions Groov.  I know it seems contradictory, but, the problem is when talking about sex work there just isn't a cut and dry.  There are too many levels in that business to assess things so objectively.

As far as the current woman is concerned, based on the OP's story, I see someone sincere.  I could be wrong, but, that is what I see.  His story reminds me too much of the choreographer I spoke of.  She had a similar relationship and from her side her biggest worry was the man would never be able to trust her, even though she had fallen in love with a man who had been a client one time. 

I have advised the OP in PM and in this thread that the ONLY thing he needs to worry about is HIS own ability to deal with her history and the potential risk factors.  If he can honestly, with no emotion, say that he can, I do not see any reason not to go forward.  However, it is not the normal sort of self reflection that is required, he needs to be brutal with himself and really understand all the dynamics that might exist or develop.  It is not going to be easy for him to do that, and, if he deludes himself even 1% he can make a big mistake.

As far as you honesty question.. well.. I don't know or care about the honesty of the woman in question, but, I seriously doubt the honesty of people who call themselves moralists.  If you are really interested I would be happy to discuss why in private.  There is no point to start that debate in public and I will not respond if one ensues from my above comment.

[BC]

It's hard to speak about "emotional baggage" or being "well adjusted" since judging by the various posts, we have different views of what these are and the problems they can cause in a relationship. Psychology isn't a true science in that we can never look into someone's mind and see exactly what they are thinking. If we could, one wonders would any relationships survive (LOL) And we certainly have different views of whether prostitution is just plain wrong. Still, even the voluntary nature of her involvement has potential problems, since if she willingly compartmentalizes sex as a commodity to be traded for money, will she continue to compartmentalize it to justify stepping out of the relationship from time to time? Sex for love with this guy, sex for money with this guy, sex for fun with this guy...My question remains has there been a change in the way she thinks about prostitution and the role of sex in a relationship that would allow her to be happy in a monogamous relationship. This could of course be applied to "players" as well.

Stix,

Compliments.. it is rare to see someone that affords discourse to deeper levels.  

Compartmentalize to the point of seeking external external satisfaction? -- if the relationship is sound I think not.

As to whether or not she might exhibit tendencies to ordinate entitlement is another aspect one could explore, but certainly no answers will be afforded in the near future.

In any case 'landing' a FSU woman is an uphill battle for all seeking such.. The OP should consider an even steeper slope or at the very least an impressive 'learning curve' in his endeavor.

[BC]

Scultpo, in the past when you were floating out your credentials to comment on sex slavery and prostitution, you remarked more than once about how screwed up the majority of women in these fields are. Drugs, suicide, impulsive behavior, etc. - why are you now assuming that this woman is unique without the tiniest shred of evidence?

Defending the honor of a nameless woman (prostitute or not) is pretty noble, but since the chances of her ever reading this thread are pretty astronomical, why don't you advise the OP instead of jumping on your white horse?

FWIW, assuming that this woman is more "honest and intelligent" than the moral crusaders here is just plain silly.
 

LOL.. Groove, I think Sculpto should realize that the more you say is not necessarily better.. It's an old lawyer 'thing'.. say the absolute least you need to get the point across without expanding the target too much..

OTOH, I sincerely believe that the most honest and intelligent 'crusaders' can be fooled in the end.  The fact that the relationship is quite 'open' as to her current state of employment is positive.

[Sculpto]

LOL.. Groove, I think Sculpto should realize that the more you say is not necessarily better.. It's an old lawyer 'thing'.. say the absolute least you need to get the point across without expanding the target too much..

I quite well understand that BC.. but that isn't my goal or purpose.. I mean to be proven right or wrong.. just to expand knowledge from different viewpoints.

[BC]

I quite well understand that BC.. but that isn't my goal or purpose.. I mean to be proven right or wrong.. just to expand knowledge from different viewpoints.

Sculpto,

Volume will never, ever win over quality in the long run.  I throw things out there to be proven wrong, not right.. - it sorta makes me think a bit more about what i post.

[BillyB]

I'm not condoning anything, but just pointing out that it's difficult to draw any lines of social standard with definition, especially when it comes to sex.  Just to prove a point (and stir the pot a bit), would any of the posters here marry a woman that had a prior relationship with a black man?

Nobody but stix answered that question. What does all the silence mean to you BC? I'll answer the question. I don't care about who the lady I'm dating has had relationships with. All I care about is her current conduct, behavior, and I try to learn her morals and values and figure out if they're in line with mine. Not only can I marry a woman who once had a relationship with a black man, I can marry a black woman. I've been attracted to a few black ladies but Slavic women are the most beautiful in my eyes so that's where I'm focused.

[Aloe]

if you care if your woman had been with a black man before you, you are either insecure (and susceptible to stereotypes) or racist, what else is there to say

[possum]

if you care if your woman had been with a black man before you, you are either insecure (and susceptible to stereotypes) or racist, what else is there to say

What stereotypes would you be talking about?. :noidea: