What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[Chelseaboy]

The new President of Ukraine has ignored the threats from Russia,and sent in jets,helicopters and paratroopers against the pro-Russian seperatists holding Donetsk airport...good for him.

[fathertime]

Your hate has perverted your morals.  Your pride has blinded you. To say such a thing on Memorial Day is barbaric in its insensitivity.  What treachery.  To receive invective about my honor from one without is an honor.  Judas is worried you might take his comfy spot in the infernal regions.

You are whining that you don’t get respect or have honor.  You don’t deserve any respect.  There are consequences for your behavior.  Live with it!

Shots fired at Donetsk airport today after pro-Russian seperatists took control and forced its closure.

Meanwhile Russia warns the new President of Ukraine he's not to tackle the pro-Russian seperatists/thugs.

I think it is time for the separatists to stand down.  Although the election was not perfect it was as good as it could get for now.  Breaking up Ukraine doesn't appear to be on the table unless Russia were to invade (which also isn't on the table)…the majority wouldn't vote for breaking Ukraine up, but it is possible the majority would like more autonomy so that is a reasonable goal to pursue.  Hopefully there will be some high level meetings to hammer out an equitable solution….I think that is a distinct possibility.   I also sense that if the new govt takes a very hard line when it comes to negotiations, it will be counterproductive and lead to more internal fighting.  Hopefully a balance can be struck.     


Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

China/Libya/Egypt/Ukraine/Thailand/Syria/Iraq/Iran/Venezuela/ Palestine  etc etc.  The end result of our ‘help’ has led to crisis’s  around the globe…

Crisis around the globe will happen with or without us...probably more without us. With Obama's soft stance towards aggression the last 6 years, Russia and China have been more aggressive. The result is more nations around the world have asked us to park our troops on their land. I remember in the 90's, even Clinton was more active towards aggression than Obama. China shot a missile over Taiwan and Clinton immediately sent an aircraft carrier group over to China. Clinton was not so aggressive pursuing Osama Bin Ladan the first WTC bombing. The result was another WTC bombing in 9/11.


More nations are now considering joining NATO. Those in NATO are beefing up their militaries near the Russian border. More people around the world, particularly in Europe and Asia, depend on our security and providing that security has benefits.

these nations can put in their own work...we are all stocked up with our own to-do list of things to deal with. 

I'd like to see those nations put in more work too towards their security. When Obama meets with the leaders of those nations, he must stress that point and the point of buying American if they want our security. American arms sales have gone up recently so I suspect Obama brought that up at his trip in Europe. Too many times in the past, Obama failed to step up for American businesses in his trips around the world.

I think it is time for the separatists to stand down. 

I agree. Those in the east must give the new president a chance. If he does poorly, they can protest by the millions in Kiev just as the west done 3+ months ago and tell him to step down. I don't see a lot of east Ukraine citizens protesting, just mostly armed thugs so I believe most east Ukrainians just want peace and hope their country moves in the right direction, not join Russia.


As of now, it is the president's job to bring peace, stability and prosperity to ALL citizens and he must start by removing the few armed thugs off the streets so Ukraine can begin a healing process. He's already offered the east more autonomy but he can't give them the land.

[AkMike]

Yarosh was reported as the President on Russian TV Channel !!

 
Ukrainian security agencies and IT specialists foiled an attempt to break into Ukraine's election site and falsify the results of the presidential election. A virus was discovered that was designed to show Dmytro Yarosh, head of the Right Sector, as the winner. However, Russian operatives apparently got the timing wrong, because Russia's Channel One went ahead with fake news report 40 minutes after the discovery of the virus.

Quite a coincidence Huh? They must have had their crystal ball aligned with their OUIJI Boards in order to know that!



Russian hacking attempt fails, but fake election news airs

Posted on May 26, 2014  by  marquepro   
 

The news report by Russian Public Television (ORT) Channel One about the alleged victory of Dmytro Yarosh (head of the Right Sector — Ed.) in the presidential elections in Ukraine was the result of a planned and prepared provocation against Ukraine and not the result of error or technological failure, Ukrainian officials say.

The news agency Ukrinform reports that sources in the Security Service of Ukraine have stated that the provocation centered around an attempted hacking of the election site.



“The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the State Service of Special Communication and Information Protection of Ukraine, together with Ukrainian IT specialists, found, localized and finally neutralized a virus designed to interfere with the post-election counting of votes on the Central Election Committee site. Specifically, the plan was for Dmytro Yarosh to win, showing a 37% return, the equivalent of 19 million voters,” an SBU source told Ukrinform.

The source said the virus was neutralized about 40 minutes before the Channel One news report went on the air. Obviously, operatives in Moscow did not learn of this development in time, since Channel One proceeded to announce the “fake” news that in reality never took place.

According to Kostyantyn Khivrenko, head of media relations for the Central Election Commission (CEC), the cynical lie distributed once again by Channel One was yet another element in the information war against Ukraine, in addition to the “hot” war taking place in the eastern regions of the country.

This view was confirmed by the head of the Central Election Commission Mykhaylo Okhendovsky at a press briefing at the CEC headquarters on Monday, May 26.

“Indeed, according to our colleagues, certain provocations were being prepared, including the use of the CEC site. But these groups were not able to break into the system and gain illegal entry to our website. In my view, other groups simply carried out their part of the assignment regarding the distribution of certain information, supposedly citing the CEC,” he said.

Okhendovsky noted that this situation made it possible to draw certain conclusions regarding the wide range of people who could have been involved in the attempts to break into the system “Election” and interfere with its operation. However, he confirmed that all the attacks had been unsuccessful and that the system is operating normally.

As previously reported, according to preliminary results of the exit polls, the leader of the Right Sector Dmytro Yarosh was not even included in the top ten candidates for the presidency and received less than 1 percent of the vote.

Note: The Right Sector is a Ukrainian nationalist organization that is repeatedly cited by Russian media as typical of the supposed “fascist” nature of Ukraine’s pro-Western forces.

Translated and edited by Anna Mostovych

Sources:

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/tsentrviborchkom_rosiyski_zmi_spalilisya_na_yaroshi_1942000

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/informatsiya_ort_pro_yarosha_prezidenta_ne_pomilka_a_provokatsiya_1941845

[Muzh]

I don't believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine (aside from stealing Crimea, which was never denied by me).  The election is about to occur and the Russian troops have not moved, several said this election would never happen and Russia would invade all of Ukraine.  Some with unsteady hands said we (the USA) needed to act militarily before the invasion happened... All those people were mistaken...Russia was never going to invade E. Ukraine...sure there are some ruffians that are out killing people (from both sides) and there does appear to be a measure of disharmony in parts of E. Ukraine, but that does not constitute an invasion.   Soon the new ELECTED leader can make some decisions about which direction to go.  If certain regions gain some autonomy because that is what they want, there is nothing wrong with that. 


In the end
1.  Russia will have added Crimea to their holdings, and possibly retain influence in Eastern Regions of Ukraine.
2.  The rest of Ukraine will move towards the west.


These results would be acceptable enough to many, perhaps even most...we (the USA) will have hurt ourselves by getting involved.  It will hopefully soon be time to turn the page...imo


Fathertime!

So Fathertime Van der Craats is changing his tune, eh?

[fathertime]

So Fathertime Van der Craats is changing his tune, eh?

Has the position I’ve taken changed?  I thought it was about the same as it was 3 months ago. 
1.       The US stay out of the conflict….still feel the same way
2.       The Russian troops were not going to invade…..they didn’t, and I don’t think they will
3.       Negotiate with both sides to give those Eastern Regions more autonomy….still support that
4.       Possible win-win (for most)…..still think that is possible
    ….Russia did take Crimea which I (alone on this website) felt at the time was the main military objective… Others called for US military involvement and felt all of Ukraine was going to be overrun.  Those posters have changed their tune, but I haven’t needed to change mine, as the events thus far have supported my earlier position, which was at the time was ridiculed as being naïve. From my perspective the outstanding issue will be if an internal conflict can be averted, if so and Ukraine stabilizes and moves toward the west (like I think it will)...then I think even the media is going to claim win-win.  If the new leader of Ukraine can't facilitate the stabilization of Eastern parts of Ukraine, then Ukraine loses....I think he will succeed.   There still are some variables, but overall it is shaping up close to what I thought it would 3 months ago regarding no Russian invasion. I don't think it was ever on the table that these events were going to be without some fighting and deaths, but it could have been 100 or 1000 times worse.   


Fathertime!   

[southernX]

Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 07:37:05 PM »

Quote


lets all hope it wont escalate to open conflict involving the military

while many supposed experts are saying it wont happen and its putins bluff , honestly id not be surprised if it goes ahead, currently it wont take much to spark it off either in crimea or ukraine proper

if the destabilisation of the south east doesnt work as he had planned , he might up the anti even more in the near future

if it where to happen , even if putin is able to initially put forces into ukraine quickly at the outset, it  will be bloody and protracted imho  ,   slowly inevitably  dragging in other players

SX

Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 12:36:20 AM »

Quote




Quote from: JayH on March 17, 2014, 10:28:29 PM


Unfortunately I tend to think the provocations are the pre cursor to create the climate for an excuse to invade. Putin is either insane--or deluded--probably both-- and that is just plain dangerous to Ukraine-- and to the rest of the world.




yes , it is most likely how it wil be started if it does happen

putin is however not insane or deluded
he is imho a  typical male of his generation and social enviroment ,hard nosed and practical , do what you must to achieve your aim ,  you dont work in the areas he has in germany under soviet rule etc  without learning certain skills , evaluating people and manipulating/intimidating  them among others is stock in trade,

he has imho  made the decision his plan will pay off in the longer term , he accepts his country will take some negative for it , but in the  pragmatic longer term he will make it into russian  history as a strong  leader who reunified parts of the FSU

question is really how far is he ready to go to do that , before he gets some  significant push back

at present it doesnt look good

SX

FT,
my hypothetical question was merely to point out to daz , how we would feel/respond if a larger populated near neighbouring country decided it wanted a starting point within australia for occupation & annexation ,

on my part there was no race /slur intended, hopefully none was given to anybody,

my point was to use alocal example of how any treatys/international law would be viewed in the aftermath of crimea if substantial action is not shown to russia ,
to not care &let them sort it out themselves will in the future invite the following

1 all countrys will review defence spending , with an aim to more arms proliferation across the globe, including nukes,
2 all countrys complete reluctance to not only sign agreements, but to honour them
3 many of the worlds countrys will  view argression on a near valuable neighbour possibly very differently
regardless of ''friendliness '' to each other

4 many countrys with internal ethinic issues may now have to deal with independence issues from within , including russia , as ethnic minoritys view this ''legal annexation of crimea '' within the accepted methods of achieving their aim

lots of other outcomes, but the ripple effect will last for along long time , even if putin stops at crimea

SX

Reply #218 on: March 24, 2014, 09:48:33 PM »

Quote


FT ,

russias movements of troops and there buildup along the entire east border with ukraine is going to be one of two things,

it could be the defensive posturing , but in reality , if that was so it is far more likely to be more concentrated in the south east, closer to crimea,

no other civilised country is going to invade russia in the north east, kharkiv has masses of rusky troops just 50 km away , over the border in belgorod , this isnt defence it is more likely waiting in the wings for the right trip /spark to move across into ukraine to ''SAVE '' the ethnc russians there , who by and large probably dont want it

with so much corruption abound within regional govs, it is difficult to make a proper reading of which way this will go , but just one major incident within an s/east oblast will very probably set the russian army westwards,
i have no doubt  putin is mercilessly calculating , he has no better time than now or the very near future to make this move , if he chooses to ,

if he waits, he might lose the momentum/moment
ukraine will hold elctions and new gov will have unquestioned legitimacy, , now he can posture the gov doesnt , regardless of fact below

http://khpg.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1395358623

ukraine will if it recovers economicaly , boost its defences , have no doubt about that , it may join NATO ,
 
now it is vulnerable , it has no gaurantee of military help with troops etc from any third party, now or the very near future is putins moment when ukraine is at its most vulnerable , and parts of moldova, right across to take it all back as far as he can push ,
 
and dont forget putin still has yanukovich , as his puppet to restore ''legitimalty if he wishes to use him, remember yano wrote to the duma asking for their help to retake his position /country , ? yanu spent time after he left kiev in crimea, what hand did he have in that play ??   how affiliated is he with the new prime minister aksanov [goblin ] in crimea, ??
did they meet and plan in crimea ??  both have east mafia bases /connections ?

the EU/US have indicated their lack of will to get deeply involved and are prepared to sacrifice ukraine to save their economys, putin know this only too well
 ,
he has waited to get total control of crimea, all ukraine bases shut down ,forces removed , weapons in his control ,  no small resistance internally within crimea to cause any issues ,

all the chess pieces are in place to make the move, now /soon imho
question is will putin sieze his oppurtunity ? will he use yanukovich to front it when he does and where will it start ?

SX

FT,  my first few posts on this , so far putin has not siezed his oportunity to the full, even though he is still trying

SX

[lordtiberius]

Whining about you? To who? I am making fun of you dummy.  Oh BTW, your buddies in deer camou are getting their ass kicked by Ukrainians.  The election is legitimate.  Crimea is falling apart and will soon be in Ukrainian-Tartary hands.  God willing Crimea will be rid of the scum too.

[fathertime]

  I am making fun of you dummy.

Angry name calling! Hahaha...like I said no honor (or discipline)!  ….The predictions I made have been very close…if your poor advice was followed we would have had an unnecessary war with tens of thousands dead or worse..thankfully you are NOT considered very good at military planning.  Now that most of your jabbering has turned out to be completely wrong, I will be curious to see how you attempt to save face.  My guess is angrier name calling but certainly not logical reasoned arguments.   

  Oh BTW, your buddies in deer camou are getting their ass kicked by Ukrainians.   

Not my friends never were.  Unlike you I’m not rejoicing in the killing, the election has occurred and I think the fighting should come to a close, and the negotiated settlement talks should commence.    Ukraine needs to be on good terms with it’s Russian neighbor and that will prevail in the end…imo

.  Crimea is falling apart and will soon be in Ukrainian-Tartary hands. 

Here is another silly prediction that will likely not come to pass.  Russia will not be giving up that land, and no nation is going to fight for it.  Crimea is now Russia.

Fathertime!   

[calmissile]

It seems that Russia is not only reentering the cold war of the past, it is also exercising more restrictions on personal liberties.  The press is no long free,  Russia is invading sovereign nations (Crimea) and is now trying to limit the brain drain that has been going on for many years.

Article on travel bans prohibiting Russians from leaving.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/controlling-russians-through-travel-bans/500914.html

Its unfortunate that after quite a few years of cooperation (space, business, tourist travel, START agreements, etc) that the current Hitler-like nut case is about to reset the calendar back decades.  At the rate Pitler is going, Russia may well become a closed society again.

IMO it is a sign of desperation.  His failures as president to rebuild the economy and improve life for Russians may well be his undoing.  Invading Crimea and supporting the terrorists in Crimea and eastern Ukraine has the world turned against him.  Whether his propaganda machine has managed to keep the truths from his people is uncertain.

Unfortunately for Putin, the genie is out of the bottle.  A couple of decades of internet service and access to international news has provided a different view of the world to the younger generations.  BTW, the same holds true to Ukrainians.  Once people have a taste of freedom, it's difficult to put genie back.   Hopefully the younger generations in Russia will eventually bring his demise.

[AkMike]

Too bad they won't keep their little green men and 'colorado's' at home.

[JayH]

http://i.imgur.com/IDQmeiD.jpg

Crimean action !!   Russian troops being really useful !!

[BC]

It seems that Russia is not only reentering the cold war of the past, it is also exercising more restrictions on personal liberties.  The press is no long free,  Russia is invading sovereign nations (Crimea) and is now trying to limit the brain drain that has been going on for many years.

Article on travel bans prohibiting Russians from leaving.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/controlling-russians-through-travel-bans/500914.html

Its unfortunate that after quite a few years of cooperation (space, business, tourist travel, START agreements, etc) that the current Hitler-like nut case is about to reset the calendar back decades.  At the rate Pitler is going, Russia may well become a closed society again.

IMO it is a sign of desperation.  His failures as president to rebuild the economy and improve life for Russians may well be his undoing.  Invading Crimea and supporting the terrorists in Crimea and eastern Ukraine has the world turned against him.  Whether his propaganda machine has managed to keep the truths from his people is uncertain.

Unfortunately for Putin, the genie is out of the bottle.  A couple of decades of internet service and access to international news has provided a different view of the world to the younger generations.  BTW, the same holds true to Ukrainians.  Once people have a taste of freedom, it's difficult to put genie back.   Hopefully the younger generations in Russia will eventually bring his demise.

Well hate to pop that patriotic bubble......

The article mentions 70% of those that are restricted are for reasons of debt...

Doesn't the IRS have the authority to revoke or prohibit issue of a passport for those who have large debt?

Isn't it funny how:

Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act

S. 1813

AN ACT

To reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.

contains section 40304 stating in part:

(a)In general
If the Secretary receives certification by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue that any individual has a seriously delinquent tax debt in an amount in excess of $50,000, the Secretary shall transmit such certification to the Secretary of State for action with respect to denial, revocation, or limitation of a passport pursuant to section 4 of the Act entitled An Act to regulate the issue and validity of passports, and for other purposes, approved July 3, 1926 (22 U.S.C. 211a et seq.), commonly known as the Passport Act of 1926.

In addition, there are certainly high security/sensitive jobs that come along with travel restrictions or even bans to certain countries.

... and on top of that, how many felons or those with drug related misdemeanors on parole or probation have their passports held or application rejected?

How about travel to Cuba for USC's?  any progress there lifting restrictions / penalties?

Seems like contempt prior to investigation..... 


Even the 'Land of the Free' has plenty of exceptions and restrictions that grow and grow over time.

[stilllooking]

Not my friends never were.  Unlike you I’m not rejoicing in the killing, the election has occurred and I think the fighting should come to a close, and the negotiated settlement talks should commence.    Ukraine needs to be on good terms with it’s Russian neighbor and that will prevail in the end…imo

The problem remains that no one knows how many Eastern Ukrainians want more autonomy. We know Putin would like the East to have more autonomy, but like any democracy the will of the majority trumps the will of the minority. That does not mean one can ignore the minority, it does not mean all the demands of the minority have to be accepted.

Of course, the seperatists would prefer no one to know how much support they truly have, hence some rigged referendum and the disruption of the elections.

I suspect those in power who want more autonomy want it to keep the status quo (corruption, less oversight), is that really want the average person on the street wants?

[lordtiberius]

Again, Father time, you don't respect the sovereignty or even lives of Ukrainians. 

[fathertime]

Again, Father time, you don't respect the sovereignty or even lives of Ukrainians.

The version of ‘respect’ you believe in would have likely costed  10’s of thousands of Ukrainian lives, if not worse.  You and your buddy McCain can continue to shriek about war (using other people’s children), but most of society won’t support your 1st  ‘solution’ to everything.


Fathertime!

[Maxx2]

Even the 'Land of the Free' has plenty of exceptions and restrictions that grow and grow over time.

Certainly true. Most people do not see it as they go about their ordinary lives. A new one happened this weekend when everyone was having their holiday. The IRS is now requiring all businesses no matter how small to get heath insurance policies for their employees or face $100 a day fines. That is $36,500 a year in fines per employee. It doesn't matter whether they can afford them it's just "do it." Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.

[lordtiberius]

The version of ‘respect’ you believe in would have likely costed  10’s of thousands of Ukrainian lives, if not worse.  You and your buddy McCain can continue to shriek about war (using other people’s children), but most of society won’t support your 1st  ‘solution’ to everything.


Fathertime!

You bitch about the 1000s of people who haven't died versus the 100s who have. 

[Dewed]

Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.

Gotta agree with that one.. really, I have no idea where they get ALL that energy, or all that free time.. even if their retirees... they eat and sleep right?

[fathertime]

You bitch about the 1000s of people who haven't died versus the 100s who have.

Thankfully it has been hundreds and not Tens of thousands like if you and your buddy McCain got your way.  You must be so disappointed that this has a good chance of ending soon without serious US intervention and many more dead.  Although if given the opportunity to work against it you would, this is potentially winding down with no Russian invasion (outside of Crimea) like you promised.  How disappointing for you, but very good potential news for the rest of us.  Direct US intervention was NEVER the answer, despite you caterwauling.


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

Gotta agree with that one.. really, I have no idea where they get ALL that energy, or all that free time.. even if their retirees... they eat and sleep right?

Because of the crisis, sex tourism literally screeches to a grinding halt. Most of these guys are no-lifers to begin with so they're just illustrating what life is like if they have to stay 'home' (Without the MOB).

Zilch.

[BillyB]

Putin continues to send troops into Ukraine.


http://www.bloomberg.com/video/russian-invasion-expected-in-luhansk-region-RRRcnrK7TOyomUpiiyTdZQ.html?cmpid=yhoo

Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.

People have expelled more energy towards their government than towards Russia. Obama has taken more of a beating than Putin. Obama's foreign policy, Obamacare, Bengazi, are some examples. Putin will get the lion's share of the attention for now but it will pass when this is over. Then we'll go back to criticizing our own government.

[fathertime]

I'd like to see those nations put in more work too towards their security. When Obama meets with the leaders of those nations, he must stress that point and the point of buying American if they want our security. American arms sales have gone up recently so I suspect Obama brought that up at his trip in Europe. Too many times in the past, Obama failed to step up for American businesses in his trips around the world.

Hey Billyb,


This is an interesting concept that you have brought up....I think what you are saying is that we (the USA) will protect you IF you are buying our products and supporting our businesses.  IF that is what you are saying then I might be able to go along with it, at least to a certain extent.  That probably is what all our 'protection/interventionism' is mostly about to begin with.   Of course that does make our armed forces mercenaries to some degree and does bring up some issues as to what the purpose of our military is supposed to be.


  Our 'representatives' of course are being quite hypocritical and patting themselves on the back about 'protecting' or 'liberating' when really that is not what it seems to be about much of the time. I really think the politicians should be more honest and come out and say the REAL reason's we are getting involved which would be about propping up our businesses, the rest of the world seems to know this anyway...if they were to do that, I think the American people would be more supportive if they believe there are some real tangible benefits for John Q. Public. 


Fathertime!   

[Chelseaboy]

The Ukrainian border guard service at Luhansk today said that it's officers engaged in a gun battle with a gang of gunmen who were trying to break through the border from Russia.

One intruder was wounded and the border guards seized several vehicles loaded with Kalashnikov assault rifles,rocket grenade launchers and explosives.

Needless to say this news did not come from RTS.

[BillyB]

..I think what you are saying is that we (the USA) will protect you IF you are buying our products and supporting our businesses.  IF that is what you are saying then I might be able to go along with it, at least to a certain extent. 

It is what I'm saying. If our friends want our help protecting their nations, they need to do something in return. One reason our nation became strong is because we did help our friends during their wars, particularly in WWI and WWII. One reason our nation's debt doesn't look so bad is because many nations owe us for the help we gave. The UK is #2 in debt in this world and they owe America the most. America will stay strong if we are trustworthy, reliable, and have a president that knows how to negotiate when it comes to foreign policy deals.


Obama hasn't impressed me much as a good business man. Here's one example: We went into Afghanistan in response to 9/11. We spend our taxpayer money to help rebuild the nation and instead of buying American choppers for Afghanistan's security, we buy Russian. Over a billion dollars worth. This of course was decided before Putin did his thing in Ukraine. Obama tries to share the love with everybody to rebuild Afghanistan only to get crapped on later.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/russian-helicopters-us-1-billion-afghan-military_n_4408278.html

That probably is what all our 'protection/interventionism' is mostly about to begin with.   Of course that does make our armed forces mercenaries to some degree and does bring up some issues as to what the purpose of our military is supposed to be.

I would disagree with providing security if our allies were able to tell our troops what to do. Phillippines, South Korea, Japan, and NATO nations shouldn't be allowed to tell our troops to go on attack. Our troops should be used for defensive purposes specifically in defense of the nations they're stationed in.

Our 'representatives' of course are being quite hypocritical and patting themselves on the back about 'protecting' or 'liberating' when really that is not what it seems to be about much of the time. I really think the politicians should be more honest and come out and say the REAL reason's we are getting involved which would be about propping up our businesses, the rest of the world seems to know this anyway...if they were to do that, I think the American people would be more supportive if they believe there are some real tangible benefits for John Q. Public. 

I can handle the truth but it seems most Americans prefer to hear that we do things to save lives. It sounds much better than doing things for oil or improving business. Saving lives should be a goal of ours but not the only goal.

The Ukrainian border guard service at Luhansk today said that it's officers engaged in a gun battle with a gang of gunmen who were trying to break through the border from Russia.

One intruder was wounded and the border guards seized several vehicles loaded with Kalashnikov assault rifles,rocket grenade launchers and explosives.

Interesting that when Yanukovych was president, Russians were fine with that. Now somebody else is president, Russian citizens are willing to cross the border and voluntarily risk their lives to help their neighbors in east Ukraine get away from all the fascists. Most people know they are paid Russian special forces, not volunteers.