Paris Airport

[lasalle]

Hello!

Because this is a travel question I wasn't sure where to place it, but decided on the experienced section because it's for any of you who may have traveled through the (CDG) airport in Paris. After a series of unforeseen delays (We were married in Ukraine last September 17th) my wife Lana will be traveling from Kiev Ukraine to either New York (JFK) or to Chicago (ORD) sometime during the next few days. She understands English quite well when it spoken to her, she reads English equally as well, but her ability to speak the language is limited.

One the routes I'm considering for her would be on Ukraine International from Kiev to Paris (CDG) with a 3-hour layover in Paris, and then fly on Air France to Chicago. (I would drive from my home in Southern Minnesota to Chicago.) Has anyone on this forum had any experience going through Paris? I found quite a few comments in several travel forums from people who were very unhappy with their experiences at the Paris airport. and stated it was very confusing to go from one area to another. Lana would arrive at Terminal 2--Hall B and leave from Terminal 2--Hall E. in Paris. The other route would be from Kiev to Amsterdam and then to New York (JFK) on Delta Airlines, where I would meet her and fly back to the Mpls & St. Paul airport in Minnesota. Any suggestions, comments or ideas would be great.

Thanks,

Lasalle

[wxman]

Why not fly her from Amsterdam to Minneapolis? KLM flies to and from there. That way you would not have to fly to New York. Customs is easy to get through in Minneapolis. Also Ukrainian airlines is a partner with KLM and NWA, so she will not have to recheck her luggage when she flies from Kiev-Amerstdam-Minneapolis.

[BC]

Kiev (or Kyiv) to Amsterdam then JFK might be a better deal, both for language (english should not be a problem there) and work authorization stamp which I think is only done at JFK.

French folks are not very english savvy.

FWIW..

[itstime]

Paris CDG is a complicated airport with several disconnected terminals, confusing tunnels and a confusing shuttle bus system. I am fluent in French but I have got lost several times trying to navigate that place.

Have you considered routing her via Vienna. This is supposed to be the best airport in Europe for connections and they actually guarantee a minimum time to transfer flights on their website. I'm going to fly through there on Saturday on my way to Kiev with only 50 minutes between flights.

Amsterdam is not a bad choice either.

One advantage of both Amsterdam and Vienna is that they speak Germanic languages, not Romance languages. People in norther European countries generally speak English better than in southern Europe and they are also MORE WILLING to speak English to foreigners.

 

[ConnerVT]

Here is my take on CDG, written while still enroute from SVO to BTV :

I know we have done our share of French bashing here, and I'm not (really) going to contribute to it all that much.  But as I sit here in the Charles DeGaulle airport in France for what seems like an eternity in purgatory, I can't help to add my 0.02 Eurodollars to the discussion.

First of all, a concession - if Travelocity hadn't booked me on a flight that was cancelled a month BEFORE I purchased my tickets, I would have likely been in and out of this place in about 3 hours.  In my defense, the flight did show as being current before I left for Russia (according to the Continental Airlines website).  I tried to speak to a human at Continental before I left, but I gave up after about 30 minutes on the phone (only slightly shorter than getting a human voice and not disconnected by NVC, subject of a rant for another time…).

The first leg of my journey brought me from SVO2 to Paris on Aeroflot.  To their credit, the plane took off within 5 minutes of its scheduled departure time, and arrived almost an hour early (Perhaps they build that into their schedule?).  Being in a center section seat of an Airbus 310, it seemed to me that we had missed the runway wide on landing.  The runways can't possibly be that far away from the terminals, can they?  The drive to my house from my final destination is a shorter distance.  But sure enough, the hour that the plane landed early was eaten away by the almost 15 minutes of drive time, just to get the airplane to the gate.  Not sitting on the tarmac, mind you.  Rolling time.

For those who have never been to the Charles DeGaulle airport, it is an immense place of glass, steel, and concrete.  Like many things the French attempt to do, but have rarely succeeded since the Renaissance, it sacrifices function for the desire of form.  Personally, this attempt falls short on both.  I can imagine it is hot when the sun shines (like now), cold in the winter, and lacks any breathable air.  The air outdoors, next to the roadways, is fresher than in the terminal and gate areas.

Since the next leg of my flight is to be on Continental, I need to go to another terminal.  Following the signs to the transfer area, you end up waiting in a long line to find out you need to be on a shuttle bus.  Of course, I will circumnavigate the entire airport once before arriving to the terminal I need.  A few things strike me.  First, it is a security nightmare.  I know all airports have many areas that can be difficult to prevent the bad guys from doing bad things, but I can come up with several scenarios as I ride on the bus.  This is a theme that continues to follow me for my time here.  The other thing, which I found humorous, is the construction that is taking place.  I chuckled at the black tape over the sign changing the underpass height from 4.xM to 4.0M.  Above it was a newly placed cast concrete section with a good size crunch taken out of it, due probably from being struck by an over height vehicle.

When I arrive at the terminal, I am told that my flight no longer exists.  Bummer.  I am told to exit through the passport control area to go to ticketing.  After telling my story to the Passport Control officer, who doesn't look at anything but the outside cover of my passport, I am sent through.  I tell the same thing to Customs, and they walk me by.  Reassuring security measures.

At ticketing, they get me on new flights, but I now will spend 5.5 hours here, and need to travel to Dulles instead (another hour or so in the air).  They tell me to come back in a half hours, as they locate my luggage.  At that time, they tell me they have it, and I need to retrieve it on the carousel.  I go backwards through Customs and Passport Control (passing through unlocked security doors marked "Authorized Employees Only" unescorted).  I retrieve my two bags, pass the Passport Control and Customs guys again (who wave me on by like I'm an old friend), and I am now in Paris.  I catch a breath of "fresh air" by a row of taxis.

Now, I have all of my luggage on a cart, some plane tickets, and no idea where to go.  All of the departure monitors are messed up, and still show flights "on time" that were scheduled to leave three hours ago.  I finally get an Air Farce employee to tell me I need to go to yet another terminal.  I forgo the shuttle (as I will need to abandon my luggage cart) and walk the 2 miles through the stuffy terminal.

After waiting in another couple of lines, where confusion and inefficiency seem to be a union slogan, I have finally made it to what I hope is my gate.  My luggage is still not checked through to my final destination - I will need to retrieve it at Dulles, haul it around some more, and check it in again to get to my final destination.

The story continues…. Well, I have made it (finally) to Dulles International in Washington DC.  After having been trapped in a aluminum cylinder with a fairly incompetent (and rude) flight crew for about 9 hours, the contrast of efficiency here at Dulles is striking.  Everyone from security to airline personnel have been friendly and fast at their work.

More interesting observations from the airplane.  We spent almost an hour after boarding sitting at the gate, while the flight crew counted and recounted  the number of passengers on the plane.  A few of us found this interesting (the German man to my left, and the Finnish woman to my right), as all the passengers were sitting in their seats, and almost every seat was occupied.  I would think the math would be fairly easy, as the number of seats on the airplane usually stays the same from flight to flight.

The best show of arrogance was shown by a male flight attendant, who was reprimanding a woman passenger whose handbag strap was almost in the way of their service cart.  The attendant yelled at her, loud enough for me to hear 8 rows behind (over the aircraft noise), "Ma'am, this is an IZEL, an IZEL…  Don't you UNDERSTAND?!" (rhymes with 'weasel').  It sounded more like a$$hole than the word he was trying to say AISLE.

It's time to find a clean shirt, and get ready to board the airplane for the final leg of my flight.  Hope to be home in time to call Russia, and tell her I've made it home safe and sound.  Then maybe about 20 hour of sleep….

Next trip - Delta non-stop JFK to SVO!

[Admin]

I agree with others that CDG (Paris) is not a friendly airport for the novice traveler.

Vienna (with Austrian Airlines) and Zurich (with Swiss Airlines) are both excellent (and small) airports - but my experience is that I had to overnight in each of these cities on my return flights. I greatly enjoy both cities, so that isn't a problem in my case, but I would NOT route a novice traveler into an overnight.

When my MIL came from Kyiv a couple of years ago, she came via Lufthansa from Kyiv into Munich - and then onto Frankfurt and finally into Denver. POE was Denver - which was an added touch of convenience for her.

Since you are looking for a routing from Kyiv to Chicago, United Airlines (and her partners) should be your principal airlines of interest - and Lufthansa is one of the original founding Star Alliance partners (with United), and should  be able to offer the most direct and least confusing routing.

For Chicago, I would avoid the Delta option - as much as I prefer Delta and the *old* Sky Team alliance - they just are NOT going to be as convenient as the United/Lufthansa options. And BTW - I have flown Air France a few times. They are just OK in terms of service - whereas Lufthansa is normally quite good.

Let us know how you fare with your search.

- Dan

[lasalle]

Thanks, wxman, bc, itstime, connerVT and Dan for all the responses and suggestions! I have not posted much in the past, as I'm busy with a job, a online business and getting the house ready for her arrival. I'll come back later and let you know what my decision on which flight she took and how her trip went. I agree that Paris is not a very good option and I will use some other route for Lana to travel. Lana's arrival  will complete the search that I started in 2001. On my 6th trip to Ukraine in May of 2004, I spent three magic days in Odessa with Lana and after the second day I knew I had found the lady that I was looking for.

Thanks again,

Lasalle

[Photo Guy]

work authorization stamp-  only JFK?  Doug

[Admin]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

work authorization stamp-  only JFK?  Doug

Conflicting reports.

It used to be that a list of 'friendly' POE's was published where you could be reasonably-assured that an entrant on a K-1 visa would receive their EAD at the time of entry. JFK and DUL were among them. Then there was a policy change that eliminated issuance of EAD at time of entrance at ALL POE's - and that is where I thought things still stood.

I have heard of a few guys claiming that their girls received an EAD at POE, but I have not been able to confirm that this practice has been authorized to commence again.

- Dan

[ConnerVT]

 Then there was a policy change that eliminated issuance of EAD at time of entrance at ALL POE's - and that is where I thought things still stood.

First time I heard of this, Dan.  When did this start?

[Admin]

Then there was a policy change that eliminated issuance of EAD at time of entrance at ALL POE's - and that is where I thought things still stood.

First time I heard of this, Dan. When did this start?
[/quote]

Conner,

I don't recall exactly when the policy change took place - but it was at least a couple of years ago. And maybe I am misremembering it, but I am pretty confident of the change. I'll see what, if anything, I can dig up to substantiate it.

- Dan

[Admin]

Then there was a policy change that eliminated issuance of EAD at time of entrance at ALL POE's - and that is where I thought things still stood.

First time I heard of this, Dan. When did this start?
[/quote]

Conner,

Check out this link:
http://www.k1poelist.com/k1poelist.cgi

It shows *some* reported historical experiences at numerous POE's. You can see that in 2000 and prior, it was commonplace for some POE's to issue the actual EAD card upon a new K-1 arrival.

Since 2000, I see only 3 claims of EAD card being issued at POE - and I have to wonder about those (SEA?!?, ATL - maybe, and DFW - another maybe).

It seems since 2000 (or so), the only work authorization on entry comes in the form of a passport stamp that must be later converted to an actual EAD card - and the only POE consistently issuing that stamp is JFK.

- Dan

[jb]

The lady is arriving on a K-3 visa, (they are already married), as such she is not entitled to the temp EAD at the POE. Lasalle will have to submit the I-765 (Application for Employment Authorization) w/fee $175.00, at the same time he files the I-485 (AOS).  It's a good idea to file the I-131 (Application for Travel Document) at the same time as well.

Lasalle didn't ask that question, but there seems to be some confusion amonst other members regrading the differences between K-1 and K-3 visas.

P.S.: Dan, that's an interesting website you've reffered to.  However I would question the accuracy of those statements prior to 2001 that says they received an actual EAD card from the POE.  As I understand the BCIS handbook, the EAD issued cannot be good for a longer period than the visa's validity, hence the custom of stamping the back of the I-94 granting a temp EAD for 90 days.  

And,,, as soon as the K-1 changes to marriage, that EAD  becomes invalid, for example, Clyde has married his K-1 girl within the 90 days, her temp EAD expired on their wedding day along with her K-1 visa. He must now submit the I-765, I-485, and I-131, and in about another 90 days she will receive her one year EAD which should last until she goes for the AOS interview.  Once a new immigrant receives the Green Card they no longer need the EAD card in order to work

[START2]

jb, good catch on the difference between the k-1 and k-3. they are already married. ...... I'd stay away from CDG ....far far away.   AMS is easy to navigate even though it's a huge airport. She'll probably only have a 2-3 hour layover if she flies NW. It leaves Kiev 0700  arrives AMS 0900 and there's a flight to MSP at 1110 or 1400 I think. Another consideration is Aerosvit ...KBP to JFK non-stop.  We did that 4.5 weeks ago and it was smooth. It arrives at about 1500. This flight was actually 20 mins early. She can buy the ticket in UKR for much less than here. Also the one way price was only like $600.For us it was 30 mins in immigration and 30 mins through customs. I've heard of longer times. Clyde was about 2 hours the week before. Sometimes a connecting flight to minneapolis could be tight.  The alternative, Kiev-AMS-MSP  on NW is good.   Good luck!!

[jb]

Regards CDG airport, it is my considered opinion that it should be avoided if at all possible.  I've traveled through CDG a number of times and had nothing but grief on each trip. Everything from lost luggage to missed connection and outragously over priced services.

Air France should be renamed,,, "Air Farce" would be more descriptive of the service they provide.

Vienna is a good alternative, however the connections through there are thin.  Amsterdam and Frankfort are the best European connection points in terms of choice of airlines, clear signage in multiple languages, and ease of transit between terminals and airlines.  If you are traveling to NYC, Helsinki with FinnAir is good, even excellent, but if you have to change airports in New York the advantage is lost.  Better to fly directly to the POE if possible with just a single connection outside the USA.

[ConnerVT]

Thanks Dan.  I thought you were speaking of the EAD stamp on the I-94.  As jb explains it is how I've read time and again as SOP at JFK.  My (then) fiancee recieved this stamp as well (but our 5 yo on his K-2 did not).

Although the stamped I-94 is only good for (up to) 90 days, it really is an important item.    It enabled my wife to get her SS# before we married (always useful). 

[Admin]

Thanks Dan. I thought you were speaking of the EAD stamp on the I-94. As jb explains it is how I've read time and again as SOP at JFK. My (then) fiancee recieved this stamp as well (but our 5 yo on his K-2 did not).

Although the stamped I-94 is only good for (up to) 90 days, it really is an important item. It enabled my wife to get her SS# before we married (always useful).

Actually, I think that is yet another misconception - that you need an EAD prior to submittal for a SSN.

Here is an actual email from the SSA which references EM-00154 (Emergency Memo 154):

What follows is the text of on emailed copy of this memo....It is refered to as Emergency Memo  EM-00154 Make note of the number and be sure to take it to the SSA with you when you go to get your fiance number. If you run into a
snag, have them dust off the binder, and read it.

(It should go without saying, that to work you need both an EAD and the SSN.)

<!--StartFragment-->From SSA.Comments@ssa.gov  Thu Jan 25 12:13:48 2001
Message-ID: <9C7534A33223D311B1FC400050F1CCD0016D4B70@sf1ccd0.ph.ssa.gov>
From: ^SSA Comments <SSA.Comments@ssa.gov>
To: xxxyyyyzzz
Subject: SmithJones Response\Bloggs9999
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:12:18 -0500

Thank you for your inquiry. Here is a copy of memo EM-00154 dated Nov. 1,2000.

A K-1 alien is the fiance of a U.S. citizen.

A nonimmigrant alien in K-1 alien status is authorized to work based on that status and is no longer required to show an employment authorization document (EAD) as proof of employment authorization when applying for a Social Security Number (SSN) card.

When an alien in K-1 status applies for an original or replacement SSN card, accept as proof of employment authorization either an unexpired:

-- I-94 showing the alien is admitted as a K-1 for a 90-day period; or

-- EAD (Form I-688B showing "274A.12(A)(6)" on the face of the card under Provision of Law or Form I-766 showing "A-6" on the face of the card under Category).

Some I-94s issued to K-1s are stamped or annotated "EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED," and some are not. Either way, the I-94 is proof a K-1 alien is authorized to work.
*******************************************

Soooo . . . with this memo, the need for a work authorization stamp in the I-94 is obviated. The SSN is to be issued regardless.

In our case, the SS card was issued with a notation on the face of the card indicating an EAD card was required. The notation was removed following AOS.

- Dan

[Admin]

And an even more authoritative (and recent 9/15/2004) source - the SSA website itself:

RM 00203.500 Employment Authorization for Non-Immigrants

http://policy.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/517e83681a5eb8b28525688d0058721c/12aa1e739e7cb5be85256f11000c6061?OpenDocument

- Dan

[jb]

Soooo . . . with this memo, the need for a work authorization stamp in the I-94 is obviated. The SSN is to be issued regardless.

Sorry, Dan, I think you are all wet on this one.  I don't think there's a SSA office in the land that will issue a SSN without proper documentation.

Just my 2 cents.

[ConnerVT]

It's all part of the chain:

The K-1 authorizes the EAD stamp.

The EAD stamp authorizes the SS#.

Getting a Federal employee to connect the dots without the proper paperwork in place?  In post 9/11 America?  No thank you.

Anyone who endeavors tho travel this alphabet soup of agencies and documents should always get everything in writing, and leave nothing to chance...  :X

[Admin]

Soooo . . . with this memo, the need for a work authorization stamp in the I-94 is obviated. The SSN is to be issued regardless.

Sorry, Dan, I think you are all wet on this one.  I don't think there's a SSA office in the land that will issue a SSN without proper documentation.

Just my 2 cents.[/quote]

Well - I can personally attest to the fact that we were able to get a SSN *without* having an EAD or stamp. The I-94 was sufficient.

I can also read the cited SSA Operations Manual which is pretty explicit on the point, as follows, "The following lists nonimmigrants, by alien classification, who are authorized to work in the U.S. without specific authorization from INS. The alien's I-94 will not have the INS employment authorization stamp and the alien will not have an EAD." The K-1 is among the listed types of visas.

So maybe we are all wet - but we also managed to secure a SSN without the EAD (or stamp).

And just to pick a small nit - you are probably correct that the SS Ofc will require "proper documentation" - in this case, the mere fact of having ANY I-94 (stamped or not) is explicitly identified in the SSA Operations Manual as "proper documentation."

- Dan

[jb]

Believe me, you are the exception to the rule if that's what happened.

Getting a SSN is akin to getting a federal benefits package. If you were born here, you are entitled to that package, if you were not born here you would have to prove that you are somehow now entitled to recieve the benefits associated with having a SSN.  Without going through the process of getting the EAD I don't see how that was legally possible.  

Someone screwed up in granting benefits to a non-immigrant who was not legally entitled to them.

(I'm not a lawyer, so nothing I say has real meaning anyway)

[ConnerVT]

Dan, you rolled the dice, and got lucky.  I'll give you an example of having all the proper documentation, and being turned away.

My best friend's wife went to Vermont Dept of Motor Vehicles to get her Learner's Permit.  In her possession were several acceptable forms of identification, including her EAD card.  Although both the States DMV website and newly passed VT legislation both indicate this is a valid proof of legal alien status (and primary identification documents), they refused to issue a permit.

Only after her husband (and a telephone call from their attorney) arrived at DMV the next day did they see the error of their ways.

[Admin]

Believe me, you are the exception to the rule if that's what happened.

Getting a SSN is akin to getting a federal benefits package. If you were born here, you are entitled to that package, if you were not born here you would have to prove that you are somehow now entitled to recieve the benefits associated with having a SSN.  Without going through the process of getting the EAD I don't see how that was legally possible.  

Someone screwed up in granting benefits to a non-immigrant who was not legally entitled to them.

(I'm not a lawyer, so nothing I say has real meaning anyway)

No jb, I don't think so. I think you may be connecting some things together that are not, in fact, related.

Olya arrived on 4/15/2001, and we were married within a few weeks - before the end of April since May marriages are somehow considered doomed according to Russian superstition . Soon thereafter, we took the marriage papers and a copy of that email I cited earlier - the EM-00154 - to our local SSA office. They took their time in reviewing the documents - and then, after some prodding by me and them pulling out a large binder full of memos - assigned a SSN and told us the card would arrive in a few weeks.

When the card arrived, it stated on the face, that it was "Valid for work only with INS authorization."

We went to the INS offices a few days AFTER this and filed for AOS, EAD, and Advanced Parole. EAD was issued on the spot (in Denver - a rarity), and Advanced Parole came a few days later.

Now, the reason I say that I believe you are mistaken is that it seems a fairly common occurrence for people to be issued SS cards with the same endorsement/restriction we had. Reference this website:
http://www.orionservice.com/k1/adjmethod.htm. This implies that EAD is an entirely separate process - though a related one for work purposes.

Note that this website is among many others which all state the same thing. If that restriction was so rare, then it would not be stated so often on so many different websites.

Now - one or the other of us is mistaken in all this. I wonder about your comment that the mere assignment of a SSN is tantamount to award of a benefits package. I did not see it that way - and do not uderstand the process to be as you describe it. But admittedly, I am no expert in this - just a long-term interested party who pays close attention to the vast amount of information - conflicting and otherwise - available to us all.

In any case - it is clear to me that issuance of a SSN is available to ANY K-1 entrant to the US immediately upon arrival - and without the EAD (or stamp).

If a local SSA office refuses to assign a SSN to a K-1 (I-94) holder, then they are in violation of their stated policy and a call to the station supervisor will probably correct matters.

FWIW

- Dan

[Admin]

Dan, you rolled the dice, and got lucky. I'll give you an example of having all the proper documentation, and being turned away.

My best friend's wife went to Vermont Dept of Motor Vehicles to get her Learner's Permit. In her possession were several acceptable forms of identification, including her EAD card. Although both the States DMV website and newly passed VT legislation both indicate this is a valid proof of legal alien status (and primary identification documents), they refused to issue a permit.

Only after her husband (and a telephone call from their attorney) arrived at DMV the next day did they see the error of their ways.

No Conner. I didn't do anything that was lucky - it was the result of paying close attention and insuring I understood the rules going in. Wasn't there some famous quotation about "the harder I work, the luckier I seem to get." That's all it was in our case - I made the investment to educate myself and insure that I understood the full range of what I could expect/demand from the authorities - and then execute on that. I can also say that those occasions where I pressed the envelope (such as the processing time at NSC), didn't result in much, if any, improvement.

I agree that sometimes it is necessary for the American spouse to help by reminding the authorities of their responsibilities - but that is a small price to pay to make certain things move as smoothly as they possibly can - which is rocky at best.

- Dan