Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Starting Out => Topic started by: noelscot on February 09, 2013, 12:04:47 AM
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Really, out of all the ventures you could get involved with, the pursuit of FSUW and the associated businesses are some of the most lying B.S-ing people you'll ever encounter. Not all are liars and disingenuous, but I would caution newbies to watch their ass in this pursuit and not buy the hype. Here is a collated list of the common B.S. you will encounter. Maybe the mods will sitcky this if it is deemed worthy. The aim is to help people, not for me to stroke my own ego and seem like a know-it-all. Also, the intent is not to insult anyone. Here goes....
1) The FSUW are vastly different than other women. You need some special some special swami guru to guide you and charge you piles of money. Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html (http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html) Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)
2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.
3) Inexcusable behavior is inexcusable behavior. It's not her "culture" if your woman is doing things that are contrary to a healthy relationship in which the partners do things in a mutual way with respect, responsibility, and care. Don't deceive yourself. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It's not some sort of multi-faceted "cultural misunderstanding."
4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.
5) The geography is capricious. There is no secret place where you are going to magically find the right woman. It is totally random, and you should go where the right woman is at, not fool around with limiting yourself to a certain geographic area of the FSU (or the FSU, for that matter).
6) A good woman is hard to find. Go ahead. Focus solely on finding some model-esque woman, not a real woman, and you'll end up with a vapid, money-grubbing, stone cold hoochie. Water seeks its own level. Unless you are rich and muscled-up, do not think you are gonna roll up in Ukraine, or wherever, and snag a supermodel. Dream on. Look for a GOOD woman. Listen to what your mama told you, if it looks too good and sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true.
7) Listen to the advice of real life MEN who have been successfully married (never divorced) for DECADES. People who have long, successful business careers without screwing up are the type of people you would ask for business advice. The same holds for marriage advice. Ask the advice of real life people who are worldly and successful at marriage. The jaded people who fill you with poisonous words are not worth your time or energy.
Eight) Zero tolerance for B.S. from FSUW. Tell "eta ne moya problema" (it's not my troubles) and move the hell on to the next woman. If some woman is wishy-washy and wasting your time (after a timely period of giving due process), there are hundreds, thousands more to talk to, date, etc. Have some pride and don't let these women walk all over you.
Can't think of anything else earth-shattering at the moment.
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What's a 'Stone Cold Hoochie'?
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4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.
Actually I dated a woman who went back because she did not like it.
Also the visits of a young friend of MrsShadow on tourist visa were convincing here she did NOT want to live in the USA.
While being able to provide a better future for her children is surely on the mind of every woman when making the final decision to take the huge gamble they do when leaving their country going to a place unknown, it is much better to find a woman who is content with her life and does not want to leave as one who does.
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4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.
To continue to touch on what Shadow said, I moved from the United States to Russia to live with my wife here. We have no intention on leaving. I also know Russians with American citizenship who have returned to live in Russia. Meaning you point #4 is clashing with your point #2:
2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.
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Actually I dated a woman who went back because she did not like it.
Also the visits of a young friend of MrsShadow on tourist visa were convincing here she did NOT want to live in the USA.
While being able to provide a better future for her children is surely on the mind of every woman when making the final decision to take the huge gamble they do when leaving their country going to a place unknown, it is much better to find a woman who is content with her life and does not want to leave as one who does.
The FSU women who are content with their life are not going to leave the FSU. These decisions to leave EVERYTHING behind are not created in a vacuum.
Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to improve her life for various self-interested reasons - better standard of living, better dating and marriage odds, more personal freedoms and privileges, etc. There is room for true love in the middle of all that.
I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.
We romanticize the FSU (not saying you are doing this) and there is a sort of Stockholm syndrome that exists.
For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT.
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What's a 'Stone Cold Hoochie'?
Same as an irrawaddy cobra. God help you if you ever meet one in real life. Think the woman from James Cain's "Double Indemnity."
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To continue to touch on what Shadow said, I moved from the United States to Russia to live with my wife here. We have no intention on leaving. I also know Russians with American citizenship who have returned to live in Russia. Meaning you point #4 is clashing with your point #2:
As long as you keep your head down and drink your vodka, I reckon Russia is okay. I applaud the people who want to stay in Russia and make the country the best that it can be.
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As long as you keep your head down and drink your vodka, I reckon Russia is okay. I applaud the people who want to stay in Russia and make the country the best that it can be.
I don't drink nor do I passively walk around with my head down, hell I'm even involved in the ultras subculture far from 'keeping my head down' and Russia is still fine by me. Again back to your point #2 - everybody is different. If you need to be drunk and passively avoid contact with everyday people to be in Russia, I can see why you wouldn't want to live here.
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The FSU women who are content with their life are not going to leave the FSU. These decisions to leave EVERYTHING behind are not created in a vacuum.
Guess it depends on what kind of woman you search for. I had the general idea to avoid those who kept pointing towards their bad life.
Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to improve her life for various self-interested reasons - better standard of living, better dating and marriage odds, more personal freedoms and privileges, etc. There is room for true love in the middle of all that.
And those who are looking for an upgrade may continue to look once they find they still have options. To each his own though.
I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.
The majority of people I have talked to still invite us to live there with them instead of asking if they can get out too. Once again, it depends on where and how you search.
For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT.
Looking at several members living in the FSU, I would say this is not true either.
And if you read it literal it is even fully wrong, as immigration is the process of entering a country to live there. Which means that immigration is 100% IN, and emigration is 100% OUT.
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I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.
We romanticize the FSU (not saying you are doing this) and there is a sort of Stockholm syndrome that exists.
For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT.
Lol, one stereotype is substituted for another. I'll try to listed people I know personally so one can get idea about one-way traffic from Russia to USA. In random order:
1. My best friend, businessman. He had moved with wife in US 15 years ago. He had found no good oppotunities for himself to make good money there. Get back in Moscow after 1 year and now costs about 8 millions $, sent his daughter in Oxford last fall.
2. Another good old friend, programmer. He immigrated in USA in 1990s, started from 30 k$ and now has income 148 k$. He's got US citizenship but do not mind return in Russia if can make here the same money (it means he'll stay there).
3. My good friend, programmer. 10 years ago he found a job in US for 45 k$, then upgraded to 75 k$. He likes being there, no intentions to return.
4. My student fellow. After graduated from Uni he immigrated in US in 1990s. He's become a professor there but as he told me he failed to make quality friends among locals. So he decided to return 5 years ago and start a new life in Moscow. His story is not typical though.
5. My student fellow, immigrated in US in 1990s. He failed to advance, worked at gas stations and Macdonalds. After 5 or so years in US he returned in Moscow and earn more money here than while in US.
6. My student fellow, immigrated in US in 1990s. It seems he has not built a career there for over 15 years. He lost touch with russian life, so he has no other options but to stay there.
7. A woman I dated. She visited US on invitation from her good friends. They promised her help to settle there, however she decided it was not worth to exchange life in Sankt-P. for US.
8. A woman I was acquainted. She immigrated in US as biologist in 1990s. Permanent position, decent salalry. Only problem, she failed to get married.
9. My colleagues, who spent in US over 10 years. I have counted 4 of them. Fifty-fifty, two of them returned back in Russia because their families (a wife in one case, a daughter in another one) didn't like there.
It was my personal sample, for sure not representative. Seems we have plenty folks traumatized by Stockholm syndrome :)
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On the whole, I find the list useful. I appreciate the positive intention behind it.
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noelscot,
Very good list and consistent with my exeriences.
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1) The FSUW are vastly different than other women. You need some special some special swami guru to guide you and charge you piles of money. Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html (http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html) Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)
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Stereotypes are stereotypical for specific reasons, but I do agree. Appearance and fashion notwithstanding, they are not VASTLY different. They are subtly (somewhat insidiously) different than WW. ;D
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8. A woman I was acquainted. She immigrated in US as biologist in 1990s. Permanent position, decent salalry. Only problem, she failed to get married...
Why is this a problem? :D I'm divorced, and have been single for quite some time. Yes, I would like to find that special someone, and maybe get married again, but it's not going to consume my life as I'm quite happy going along the way that I do. This woman may be in the same position...then again, she may relish the freedom to date whoever she likes, however often she likes. >:D
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Two long term relationships with FSUW: first was Russian, from Nizhny N., resident in US 14 years, now US citizen...for entire 2 year relationship, she attempted to persuade me to move with her back to St. Pete, where she owned an apartment; wasn't into her enough to commit to that; second is my UA fiancee, who, prior to me, rejected WM contacts because they all wanted her to emigrate from UA...I entered her life, we fell in love, I told her that I would live anywhere in the world to be with her...game over! We will marry and live in Luhansk as she continues her university studies and private English teaching career. When she is all degreed-up, she may re-think where she would like to live and work, but for now she is ecstatic that I am more than willing to move to her. ;)
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Why is this a problem? :D I'm divorced, and have been single for quite some time. Yes, I would like to find that special someone, and maybe get married again, but it's not going to consume my life as I'm quite happy going along the way that I do. This woman may be in the same position...then again, she may relish the freedom to date whoever she likes, however often she likes. >:D
I assumed he meant that she had to return because she was still single and had something to do with the visa she arrived on. Maybe I misunderstood his post.
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Two long term relationships with FSUW: first was Russian, from Nizhny N., resident in US 14 years, now US citizen...for entire 2 year relationship, she attempted to persuade me to move with her back to St. Pete, where she owned an apartment; wasn't into her enough to commit to that; second is my UA fiancee, who, prior to me, rejected WM contacts because they all wanted her to emigrate from UA...I entered her life, we fell in love, I told her that I would live anywhere in the world to be with her...game over! We will marry and live in Luhansk as she continues her university studies and private English teaching career. When she is all degreed-up, she may re-think where she would like to live and work, but for now she is ecstatic that I am more than willing to move to her. ;)
Go for it! In spite of the cynics, she may well be worth your sacrifices. Let us know if living in Ukraine is the terrible life that some want to portray. I am considering the same decision you have chosen, but is a little more complicated in my case.
I assume you have already evaluated the often stated expression "When a Ukraine women is in love with you, there will be no ambiguity as to her intentions".
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Go for it! In spite of the cynics, she may well be worth your sacrifices. Let us know if living in Ukraine is the terrible life that some want to portray. I am considering the same decision you have chosen, but is a little more complicated in my case.
I assume you have already evaluated the often stated expression "When a Ukraine women is in love with you, there will be no ambiguity as to her intentions".
There will be no sacrifices in moving to her; it's WIN/WIN for both of us! I have spent a total of two months living in Luhansk and am returning next week for another month. It's a curious town...a population of half a million, but it feels more intimate, walkable, and laid back than that population figure indicates. I am totally at ease there; in other similarly sized, or larger, cities (Kyiv, Donetsk, Simferopol, Sevastopol), I have not felt as comfortable. There are not a lot of transients (foreign or domestic) in Luhansk, because it basically is at the end of the road, as far as UA is concerned, next stop east: the Russian border. When the trees are leafed out, it is an extremely green city, with the depressing Soviet apartment blocks hidden from sight.
Being a retired airline pilot, with great travel benefits, we will not be "stuck" in Luhansk. I anticipate we will travel to the US 3 to 4 times a year, and to western/central Europe frequently. I will slowly acclimate her to the west; by the time she has all of the degrees that she is currently pursuing, she will have had enough exposure to the west to make an informed choice. As for me, I really like Europe. Living in UA will put me much closer to my favorite western European sites than living in the Rocky Mountains.
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Crikey, finally an entertaining thread on this site
2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.
Nah - that is why it is called a culture: stamps a person in a certain way.
4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.
Mostly true -- there are a few stalwarts, no doubt: but the feet cast the final vote. Once in the west they generally stay there. Brave new world you know: people's choice - trumps 1984 every time!
7) Listen to the advice of real life MEN who have been successfully married (never divorced) for DECADES. People who have long, successful business careers without screwing up are the type of people you would ask for business advice. The same holds for marriage advice. Ask the advice of real life people who are worldly and successful at marriage. The jaded people who fill you with poisonous words are not worth your time or energy.
Good-good, and how many decades married have we here: and you Noel?
Can't think of anything else earth-shattering at the moment.
Earth still stands despite it.
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...Being a retired airline pilot, with great travel benefits, we will not be "stuck" in Luhansk. I anticipate we will travel to the US 3 to 4 times a year, and to western/central Europe frequently. I will slowly acclimate her to the west; by the time she has all of the degrees that she is currently pursuing, she will have had enough exposure to the west to make an informed choice...
This is your advantage in a nutshell. You don't have a job which needs you to live in the USA (or New Zealand, Canada, Australia or wherever), and you presumably have the savings and pension which go with your former occupation, plus your existing property in the USA and of course all your free or 10% trips. I would venture to say that very few (if any) other Forum members are in such an enviable position. You can immediately decide to be with her - to live there, find out what it's like from both a personal and a cultural perspective, and then (and ONLY then) you will both decide where your future lies.
Can I please carry your suitcases? :ROFL: Full-time?
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This is your advantage in a nutshell. You don't have a job which needs you to live in the USA (or New Zealand, Canada, Australia or wherever), and you presumably have the savings and pension which go with your former occupation, plus your existing property in the USA and of course all your free or 10% trips. I would venture to say that very few (if any) other Forum members are in such an enviable position. You can immediately decide to be with her - to live there, find out what it's like from both a personal and a cultural perspective, and then (and ONLY then) you will both decide where your future lies.
Can I please carry your suitcases? :ROFL: Full-time?
So true!....but my airline crew suitcase has wheels and a handle...sorry!!! ;D
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So true!....but my airline crew suitcase has wheels and a handle...sorry!!! ;D
And since when are there ramps for the wheels crossing the streets and getting into buildings anywhere in Ukraine? I've seen some in Russia, but not in Ukraine - but then, I haven't been to Luhansk! ;D
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I was talking to a friend of mine today and we were discussing the commitment to an FSUW. I explained that my commitment would not be a convenient one. It would be one that consumed my complete life and would change how I lived and where. I also told him that while I still remain unsure of the outcome of my current commitment I saw myself living in Ukraine for at least a period of my future marriage, both out of love for the country but so that my future wife could acclimate to having a Western husband. It is my hope that having children with my future wife will allow those children to experience life with their grandparents on their mother's side regardless of where we may be living.
In generations past, my great grandparents left Germany to come to the United States. They didn't guess that they would have a chance to change their mind once they got here. Accordingly, my personal items are currently in storage. My home is rented and I am ambulatory for the sole purpose of seeing through to a resolution of a commitment. I have revised my business activities so that I can run my operations from anywhere in the world. My heart is not attracted just to the idea of wooing a wonderful FSU woman. It is committed to the journey with that woman, where ever it may take us. I am sure she will have much to say about where that might be.
Can we, in reality, expect that a woman will give up everything to live with a man in a foreign country? If we do expect so, why then should a man not expect to give up his conveniences and his toys for a similar commitment abroad? We live our lives once. The trail we take will not be walked again. I, for one, hope to experience everything that life has to offer. So when it is time to lay down, I have done so with a smile of contentment for myself and those around me.
To those of you contemplating an FSUW, consider the level of commitment that you bring to a relationship. Is it enough to make it work? Or are you depending on your wife to make those sacrifices?
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I assumed he meant that she had to return because she was still single and had something to do with the visa she arrived on. Maybe I misunderstood his post.
She lives in SF for about 15 years, so she may have an american citizenship now. Actually if a person really wants to stay in US the visa is not the most serious hurdle.
But she has something to do with her private life :)
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I have been living in Piter for four years now. I work as an English teacher - an actual teacher mind you, not somebody who says "I speak English so I must be able to teach it" and does a bad job at it. I have now received my, eh I'll call it a 'Green Card' for ease of understanding, which means I have every right as a Russian citizen except that to vote. I too have special circumstances like cc3, I'm only 33 but don't have to work again in my life if I didn't want to. Even if I didn't have that security blanket, with my wife's good job and my teaching salary we would still be living comfortable here.
Anyways, the point I was getting to is this. If you surround yourself in a bubble (IE: only women looking for relationships with foreign men) certainly your view is going to be skewed. Of course I too am in a bit of a bubble - I live in the Northern Capital, not some godforsaken village 300 kilometers south of Perm, and the people I am around are not exactly poor so I could be skewed slightly the other way. But here is the deal, as an English teacher I work with primarily women, most are young (< 30) and they all speak English. They go abroad often, most have been to the US a number of times, whether it was work and travel or being a tourist. None of them have any desire to live in the United States or anywhere but SPb. We did have one teacher move to Germany, but half of here family was living there already her mother was East German and her father was a Soviet Air Force officer. I have had probably over 500 students, a majority of which are female, probably a 60-40 split. Again, they are learning English mostly for professional reasons, to advance in their company and make more money in Russia - not escape from their terrible 120 meter apartments, dachas, fitness club memberships, weekly sushi lunches with friends and Volkswagens.
I don't know, I spend a lot of time around and with regular everyday Russians and I just don't see some desperate need to escape because of how terrible the country is. Of course this is only my experience and it is in a large city. I am not going to be like the OP and claim my observation is absolute.
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That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.
I think you are right in saying you are living in a bubble.
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weekly sushi lunches with friends and Volkswagens.
Are German cars regarded as fashionable luncheon partners in SPB :o? Wouldn't Toyotas or Hondas be more appropriate for sushi ;D?
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That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.
These cities may be a different country than the rest of Russia, however, no supprise, people is still of the same tribe, with the same ideas, perceptions and life priorities. Likely Eduard has the most broad experience in dealing with RW from all over Russia. As far as I remember his words the wish to emigrate for RW was the deal breaker in 80% of initial introductions. Of course, we're talking about female population as the whole, RW at MOB sites have different aspirations.
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Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html (http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html) Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)
Cultural relativism is opposed to ethnocentric behaviour whereby individuals judge all cultures based on their own culture. That is to say, an ethnocentric point of view will see others cultures as inferior because they don't do things exactly as they do. As for the the idea that all humans are essentially the same, I have read over the list on the site you provided. Most are quite vague and include things such as "mourning." Yes, I agree that all people across the planet will mourn, but HOW they mourn will vary from one culture to the next and that is the rub as Shakespeare would have said...
I do agree with you that too many men write off bad behaviour as cultural and are too prone to believing that people in the FSU are soooooooo different from those in their country. I also agree that there are differences between individuals. However, I would not fall into the other extreme which would be to say for example that people in Russia are exactly the same as those in Canada, the United States or Great Britain, except that they just speak a different language...
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[size=78%]Can we, in reality, expect that a woman will give up everything to live with a man in a foreign country? If we do expect so, why then should a man not expect to give up his conveniences and his toys for a similar commitment abroad?[/size]
One reason comes to mind: the expectations that many (most, nearly all) women in the FSU and elsewhere will have that their husbands work and hopefully have a career of some sort... Not all men (and I would even say few men) are capable of moving to another country and have a job that is equal to what they have at home or a career that would be equal to what they have at home.
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" For the last 20 years, the number of Russians who want to emigrate has grown from 5 percent to 20 percent, according to a Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VCIOM) pool conducted from June 4-5 in 46 Russian regions. According to the received data, 21 percent of 1,600 interviewed citizens wish to get a constant residence abroad. Groups between 18-24 years old (39 percent) as well as highly educated respondents (29 percent) and active Internet users (33 percent) showed the greatest interest in emigration.
Meanwhile, the main groups of Russians who said they wouldn’t like to settle in another country are the country’s elderly (92 percent) and barely literate citizens (85 percent) as well as those that don’t use the Internet (87 percent).
“About one-third of well-educated and well-to-do residents of big cities interviewed within the year expressed their wish to leave the country,” head of sociological firm Levada-center Alexey Grazhdankin said, referring to results of several polls, conducted by the center. At the same time he warns that it is a relative figure."
http://russia-briefing.com/news/study-shows-more-than-20-of-russians-wish-to-emigrate.html/ (http://russia-briefing.com/news/study-shows-more-than-20-of-russians-wish-to-emigrate.html/)
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One reason comes to mind: the expectations that many (most, nearly all) women in the FSU and elsewhere will have that their husbands work and hopefully have a career of some sort... Not all men (and I would even say few men) are capable of moving to another country and have a job that is equal to what they have at home or a career that would be equal to what they have at home.
I was hoping someone would swallow the bait. This should probably be an entirely separate thread as it involves a singular question that men must answer for themselves before they seek an FSU wife.
Misha, you are, of course, absolutely correct. How could an attorney or a medical doctor hope to transport himself to an FSU country to have even a prayer at a profession? Many jobs are only relative to the setting or economy that they are in. (Could you imagine a Realtor trying to break into an FSU market?)
Yet I have talked, in my discussions, to many professional women that have stated that they would give up their hard earned credentials to move to a Western Country. To me, this is a monumental sacrifice. Yet many men think that they are going to trot into an FSU country and in one or two visits uproot their future spouse and bring her back to his country as quick as you can say 'Bob's your Uncle'.
It is improbable that a man could live, immediately, in an FSU country. It is equally improbable that a woman would immediately be able to make the opposite switch.
So, I ask again, what sacrifices is a man truly willing to make to marry an FSU woman (or for that matter, any woman he loves and wishes to marry)?
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IMO there is no "sacrifice" there is give and take, with a mutually benificial result.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html)
ALMOST half of all Britons are “seriously considering” moving overseas, an exclusive survey for The Sun has found.Australia is top of the relocation wish list followed by the US, Canada and New Zealand.
The cost of living, weather, unemployment and crime are the most common reasons for wanting to quit Britain.Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html#ixzz2KVVMWaJb (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html#ixzz2KVVMWaJb)
I know it's only a Sun survey but still...Public perception is one thing, reality is different. People might answer the survey "yes I want to emigrate" but will they actually make this move after a bit more in-depth research?
Myself is a very good example. 10 years ago I thought Russia to be a horrible country with no future for me. Now I know it had never been the case. I moved to the UK thinking that would be good for me, now I am applying for every suitable job in Russia and will definitely move back after I qualified.
As we talked about it in the other thread Americans with their inflated sense of how good their country is will probably never understand that moaning and complaining about one's country all the time does not actually mean someone would want to move even if the opportunity arises.
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It is equally improbable that a woman would immediately be able to make the opposite switch.
So, I ask again, what sacrifices is a man truly willing to make to marry an FSU woman (or for that matter, any woman he loves and wishes to marry)?
Yes, but it is also quite acceptable for a woman to put other priorities first, notably family. We met one woman from St. Petersburg yesterday and she has not worked since immigrating to Canada seven years ago. She had two children and stayed at home with them. Now, she is training for a job that is not as prestigious as she had, but that does not seem to be a problem for her. I imagine the reaction here and there if a man decided to stay at home six years looking after the children while his wife worked.... I am sure it must have happened, but it would be quite the rare exception...
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For the last 20 years, the number of Russians who want to emigrate has grown from 5 percent to 20 percent, according to a Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VCIOM) pool conducted from June 4-5 in 46 Russian regions.
Lol, Eduard was accurate. If we believe the pool results the number of russians who want to emigrate is significantly smaller the number of Britons. Denmark seems to be a nice place to settle :)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145208/One-Three-Britons-Leave.aspx
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Ha ha. Belvis found a proper survey. Yeah Brits is another nation who luuuurve bitching about their country. Will the majority really move out? Nah....Very similar to Russians in that respect.
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Lol, Eduard was accurate. If we believe the pool results the number of russians who want to emigrate is significantly smaller the number of Britons. Denmark seems to be a nice place to settle :)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145208/One-Three-Britons-Leave.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/145208/One-Three-Britons-Leave.aspx)
Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language :-X If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate :P
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...
To those of you contemplating an FSUW, consider the level of commitment that you bring to a relationship. Is it enough to make it work? Or are you depending on your wife to make those sacrifices?
Though let's not forget - unrequited commitment is a spectrum - on one end lies the doormat and at the other - stalking!
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Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language :-X If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate :P
Misha, I think that a common language would be a major engine for emigration from Russia. After 1917, how many educated Russians ended up in France? You know why? ;)
How could an attorney or a medical doctor hope to transport himself to an FSU country to have even a prayer at a profession? Many jobs are only relative to the setting or economy that they are in. (Could you imagine a Realtor trying to break into an FSU market?)
Yet I have talked, in my discussions, to many professional women that have stated that they would give up their hard earned credentials to move to a Western Country. To me, this is a monumental sacrifice. Yet many men think that they are going to trot into an FSU country and in one or two visits uproot their future spouse and bring her back to his country as quick as you can say 'Bob's your Uncle'.
On the point of professional transfers from the West into the FSU, I'd say that the problem would be not quite in necessity to start fron scratch but mostly rather in lack of transparency on how the similar things are done there in the same kind of work. Often, the professional transplants fail only because they cannot capture, or cannot accept the FSU practices. The Russian hurdles are not in the extra studies, exams or licensing which ar eunderstandable. They are mostly in a strange, hidden, weird tracks of doing even the trivial things. The Western life is reasonably orgtanized, while the Russian one is not.
In my experienced view, the hurdles for a RW to establish herself in her profession in the West are a bit exaggerated. For a comparison, to arrange documents for a purchase of vehicle in the FSU could be nearly as complicated as getting some work license for an individual in the U.S. RW are used to put considerable efforts, to overcome many small, invisible or artificial hurdles in order to obtain things that are fairly straightforward in the U.S. To have to study for some extra exams for your license, do you call it sacrifice? LMAO :D
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That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.
I think you are right in saying you are living in a bubble.
Which was my point, so thinking using only to people who are actively seeking international marriage is a general representation of a whole country. And it is also living in a bubble if you think nobody ever returns home on their own accord.
Its like taking a poll at a basketball game "Do you like basketball, yes or no?" and using the data as a sample for the general population.
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Misha, I think that a common language would be a major engine for emigration from Russia. After 1917, how many educated Russians ended up in France? You know why? ;)
Let's see, the nobility in Russia generally spent much time in France and other European countries and had governesses or private teachers that taught them French and other languages practically from birth... Pushkin, for example, was nicknamed the Frenchman :-X
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Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language :-X If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate :P
Well there is quite a large Russian population in Israel, up to a point where they do not speak the local language....
As for populations of Russian, Germany has about 4 million of them, France also a good deal. And currently they are buying properties all over Greece, Spain and other souterhn countries.
Those who wish to emigrate that I know seem to first choose a location in the EU due to less travel distance and more opportunities for family to visit.
But of course we all have our own bubble.
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As for populations of Russian, Germany has about 4 million of them
My wife has extended kin in Germany, and we visit them quite often. Of course, most were ethnic Germans and their families still spoke German in the USSR and Russia or Kazakhstan...
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German language is and was not as popular among the educated Russians as the French language was some 100 or 150 years ago. The number of Russian speaing immigrants in Germany would be, IMO, a result of relative openness of the German immigration politics for certain groups of people coupled with the relative geographic proximity of the countries.
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I don't drink nor do I passively walk around with my head down, hell I'm even involved in the ultras subculture far from 'keeping my head down' and Russia is still fine by me. Again back to your point #2 - everybody is different. If you need to be drunk and passively avoid contact with everyday people to be in Russia, I can see why you wouldn't want to live here.
I was making a joke. Maybe go have a beer with the ultras and enjoy Moskva.
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IMO there is no "sacrifice" there is give and take, with a mutually benificial result.
Once in a relationship there is give and take. But so many men are thinking that they will waltz into an FSU country and make their selection, like choosing an item off a menu, and waltz back to their home country in time for cornflakes.
Yes, but it is also quite acceptable for a woman to put other priorities first, notably family. We met one woman from St. Petersburg yesterday and she has not worked since immigrating to Canada seven years ago. She had two children and stayed at home with them. Now, she is training for a job that is not as prestigious as she had, but that does not seem to be a problem for her. I imagine the reaction here and there if a man decided to stay at home six years looking after the children while his wife worked.... I am sure it must have happened, but it would be quite the rare exception...
If a woman is of child bearing age and wants to have children, or if she already has them, then it makes sense, if a man can support her without working, for her to move to his country to have or raise children. It is a natural tendency for her. But even then, the man is changing, significantly a lifestyle and most have no idea of what they are getting into. International marriage has wonderful rewards, but many challenges as well.
Though let's not forget - unrequited commitment is a spectrum - on one end lies the doormat and at the other - stalking!
Hopefully there is some type of commitment there. My reason for suggesting this deviation from the topic thread was to remind everyone of the huge commitment at hand and that it is a life changing event. Even if there is no success in finding your mate.
We have all seen that certain contributors to this forum have the propensity to obsess over a desired mate that does not share the same feelings, and the resulting punitive or stalking actions that ensue.
My ultimate thoughts are that this is a wonderful adventure. But, like all great adventurers, when you leave your house, you must expect that your adventures will change your life. It is easier to make those changes if you are willing to give up the things that have held you tethered to one place and one state of mind.
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I was making a joke. Maybe go have a beer with the ultras and enjoy Moskva.
I have no interest in visiting Tajikistan.
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I have no interest in visiting Tajikistan.
Why not ? I heard it has wonderful nature. And... wonderful nature.
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Russia is indeed a different place than when I first visited in 1992. I still saw some Hammer and Sickle flags back then. It was a tough time for everybody then.
My wife is still a Russian at heart and goes home every year to see everyone and live the live she loved. It was only her distaste of Russian men that brought her here. That and the lack of men. She was 53 when we met and claimed many men were already dead.
So I do not believe this "desperate" stuff. That was then. This is now.
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German language is and was not as popular among the educated Russians as the French language was some 100 or 150 years ago. The number of Russian speaing immigrants in Germany would be, IMO, a result of relative openness of the German immigration politics for certain groups of people coupled with the relative geographic proximity of the countries.
Wow, has your English ever improved since your move to Canada! :)
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Why not ? I heard it has wonderful nature. And... wonderful nature.
Ahem... he was referring to Moscow. ;)
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Ahem... he was referring to Moscow. ;)
You gotta admit that the fauna in Moscow is pretty breathtaking! And, if you get to the Botanical Gardens, the flora is fantastic too!
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You gotta admit that the fauna in Moscow is pretty breathtaking! And, if you get to the Botanical Gardens, the flora is fantastic too!
Nah, too much pork and firewood makes "The Northern Dushanbe" unbearable.
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Guess it depends on what kind of woman you search for. I had the general idea to avoid those who kept pointing towards their bad life.
And those who are looking for an upgrade may continue to look once they find they still have options. To each his own though.
The majority of people I have talked to still invite us to live there with them instead of asking if they can get out too. Once again, it depends on where and how you search.Looking at several members living in the FSU, I would say this is not true either.
And if you read it literal it is even fully wrong, as immigration is the process of entering a country to live there. Which means that immigration is 100% IN, and emigration is 100% OUT.
You make it sound like women who are interested in moving abroad to find their soulmate and improve their lives have nefarious ulterior motives and imply that they just couldn't "cut it" in Russia (or elsewhere). There is a distinction between using someone as a "mule" to get citizenship and genuinely wanting to have a better life (better selection of men from which to choose marriage partners, better standard of living, and more freedoms and privileges).
Of course, ALL FSUW do not want to leave the FSU, but it's a slight to call in to question the loyalty of these women to their men, just because they felt that the FSU did not offer them the lives they desired. Most women sign up to international dating websites with the mind-set that the FSU is not working out for them, personally, and they would like to expand their search for their soul-mate and improve their lives. I do not see that as a demerit in their character.
As for my mix-up with the word immigration. I'm a redneck from the village and it's probably the language barrier. :P
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You make it sound like women who are interested in moving abroad to find their soulmate and improve their lives have nefarious ulterior motives and imply that they just couldn't "cut it" in Russia (or elsewhere). There is a distinction between using someone as a "mule" to get citizenship and genuinely wanting to have a better life (better selection of men from which to choose marriage partners, better standard of living, and more freedoms and privileges).
Of course, ALL FSUW do not want to leave the FSU, but it's a slight to call in to question the loyalty of these women to their men, just because they felt that the FSU did not offer them the lives they desired. Most women sign up to international dating websites with the mind-set that the FSU is not working out for them, personally, and they would like to expand their search for their soul-mate and improve their lives. I do not see that as a demerit in their character.
As for my mix-up with the word immigration. I'm a redneck from the village and it's probably the language barrier. :P
I didn't read that into shadow's post at all and I think it'd be a mistake if you did. You seem to be of the mindset of grouping FSUW into a nice tidy package of "all", that would be a mistake, too.
There is nothing wrong with a woman, any woman looking to improve her station in life and a man that helps her achieve that. Are they mutually exclusive? The answer is no. That is what men and women do. That is what you did going to Russia isn't it? Do you hope to improve your life by putting an FSUW into it? shadow's comment IME was one of warning, not of stereo typing. Keep in mind scotty, as many or more of these marriages fail as succeed and there is a multitude of reasons for that.
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... Keep in mind scotty, as many or more of these marriages fail as succeed and there is a multitude of reasons for that.
While there are no solid statistics, I'd also assert that the percentage of relationships which actually survive until marriage, for another multitude of reasons, is (perhaps staggeringly) low. IMO, successful marriages are about 50% of 25% ... but that's just a guess...
The percentage of meetings which lead to relationships which lead to marriage is on the order of minuscule...
Guys (and ladies) thinking about getting into this should put that notion in the pipe and smoke it long and deep...
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The percentage of meetings which lead to relationships which lead to marriage is on the order of minuscule...
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female Belarus business colleague once. She wasn't very good looking.
She said to me, in all seriousness: Can you help me find an AM to marry?
I want to get married as fast as possible and move to United States and make big money as fast as possible.
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Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female Belarus business colleague once. She wasn't very good looking.
She said to me, in all seriousness: Can you help me find an AM to marry?
I want to get married as fast as possible and move to United States and make big money as fast as possible.
:ROFL: :usd:
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Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female Belarus business colleague once. She wasn't very good looking.
She said to me, in all seriousness: Can you help me find an AM to marry?
I want to get married as fast as possible and move to United States and make big money as fast as possible.
Hah! Well at least she wanted to MAKE money rather than merely spend (someone else's) it. I gotta give her two points for that... :D
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This is all good stuff so I bumped it up so that newbie/lurkers will see it.
Really, out of all the ventures you could get involved with, the pursuit of FSUW and the associated businesses are some of the most lying B.S-ing people you'll ever encounter. Not all are liars and disingenuous, but I would caution newbies to watch their ass in this pursuit and not buy the hype. Here is a collated list of the common B.S. you will encounter. Maybe the mods will sitcky this if it is deemed worthy. The aim is to help people, not for me to stroke my own ego and seem like a know-it-all. Also, the intent is not to insult anyone. Here goes....
1) The FSUW are vastly different than other women. You need some special some special swami guru to guide you and charge you piles of money. Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html (http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html) Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)
2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.
3) Inexcusable behavior is inexcusable behavior. It's not her "culture" if your woman is doing things that are contrary to a healthy relationship in which the partners do things in a mutual way with respect, responsibility, and care. Don't deceive yourself. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It's not some sort of multi-faceted "cultural misunderstanding."
4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.
5) The geography is capricious. There is no secret place where you are going to magically find the right woman. It is totally random, and you should go where the right woman is at, not fool around with limiting yourself to a certain geographic area of the FSU (or the FSU, for that matter).
6) A good woman is hard to find. Go ahead. Focus solely on finding some model-esque woman, not a real woman, and you'll end up with a vapid, money-grubbing, stone cold hoochie. Water seeks its own level. Unless you are rich and muscled-up, do not think you are gonna roll up in Ukraine, or wherever, and snag a supermodel. Dream on. Look for a GOOD woman. Listen to what your mama told you, if it looks too good and sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true.
7) Listen to the advice of real life MEN who have been successfully married (never divorced) for DECADES. People who have long, successful business careers without screwing up are the type of people you would ask for business advice. The same holds for marriage advice. Ask the advice of real life people who are worldly and successful at marriage. The jaded people who fill you with poisonous words are not worth your time or energy.
Eight) Zero tolerance for B.S. from FSUW. Tell "eta ne moya problema" (it's not my troubles) and move the hell on to the next woman. If some woman is wishy-washy and wasting your time (after a timely period of giving due process), there are hundreds, thousands more to talk to, date, etc. Have some pride and don't let these women walk all over you.
Can't think of anything else earth-shattering at the moment.
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To every thing there is a season...
but ya don't need to be a meterologist to know that "Winter is coming" and that conditions are gonna be less and less favorable than they once were
poor boyz can only afford modem dating, but they have very little chance of success with this apprach, but since they can't afford spending a large amount of time or money for their search, so that's their only option
and what's worse, they have no SMARTS, and little knowledge of the landscape they wanna hunt in
poor boyz would be better served by playing the lottery than trying to find an FSU wife
at least with the lottery, they have some small chance of winning
Incels, Poor Boys.....
sigh....
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Back when this site was very active with a lot of guys going on trips . . . I posted several times that the guy should not put up with any bad actions from FSU gals.
Reason being . . . the are more FSU gals available than there are western men traveling to meet with them.
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Back when this site was very active with a lot of guys going on trips . . . I posted several times that the guy should not put up with any bad actions from FSU gals.
Reason being . . . the are more FSU gals available than there are western men traveling to meet with them.
I would make the argument that you shouldn't put up with bad behavior from gals regardless of where
they are from.