B.S. 101

[noelscot]

Really, out of all the ventures you could get involved with, the pursuit of FSUW and the associated businesses are some of the most lying B.S-ing people you'll ever encounter. Not all are liars and disingenuous, but I would caution newbies to watch their ass in this pursuit and not buy the hype. Here is a collated list of the common B.S. you will encounter. Maybe the mods will sitcky this if it is deemed worthy. The aim is to help people, not for me to stroke my own ego and seem like a know-it-all. Also, the intent is not to insult anyone. Here goes....


1) The FSUW are vastly different than other women. You need some special some special swami guru to guide you and charge you piles of money. Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)


2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.


3) Inexcusable behavior is inexcusable behavior. It's not her "culture" if your woman is doing things that are contrary to a healthy relationship in which the partners do things in a mutual way with respect, responsibility, and care. Don't deceive yourself. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It's not some sort of multi-faceted "cultural misunderstanding." 


4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.


5) The geography is capricious. There is no secret place where you are going to magically find the right woman. It is totally random, and you should go where the right woman is at, not fool around with limiting yourself to a certain geographic area of the FSU (or the FSU, for that matter).


6) A good woman is hard to find.  Go ahead. Focus solely on finding some model-esque woman, not a real woman, and you'll end up with a vapid, money-grubbing, stone cold hoochie. Water seeks its own level. Unless you are rich and muscled-up, do not think you are gonna roll up in Ukraine, or wherever, and snag a supermodel. Dream on. Look for a GOOD woman. Listen to what your mama told you, if it looks too good and sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true.


7) Listen to the advice of real life MEN who have been successfully married (never divorced) for DECADES. People who have long, successful business careers without screwing up are the type of people you would ask for business advice. The same holds for marriage advice. Ask the advice of real life people who are worldly and successful at marriage. The jaded people who fill you with poisonous words are not worth your time or energy.


Eight) Zero tolerance for B.S. from FSUW. Tell "eta ne moya problema" (it's not my troubles) and move the hell on to the next woman. If some woman is wishy-washy and wasting your time (after a timely period of giving due process), there are hundreds, thousands more to talk to, date, etc. Have some pride and don't let these women walk all over you.


Can't think of anything else earth-shattering at the moment. 

[jone]

What's a 'Stone Cold Hoochie'?

[Shadow]

4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.

Actually I dated a woman who went back because she did not like it.
Also the visits of a young friend of MrsShadow on tourist visa were convincing here she did NOT want to live in the USA.

While being able to provide a better future for her children is surely on the mind of every woman when making the final decision to take the huge gamble they do when leaving their country going to a place unknown, it is much better to find a woman who is content with her life and does not want to leave as one who does.

[Kunstkammer]

4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.

To continue to touch on what Shadow said, I moved from the United States to Russia to live with my wife here.  We have no intention on leaving.  I also know Russians with American citizenship who have returned to live in Russia.  Meaning you point #4 is clashing with your point #2:

2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.

[noelscot]

Actually I dated a woman who went back because she did not like it.
Also the visits of a young friend of MrsShadow on tourist visa were convincing here she did NOT want to live in the USA.

While being able to provide a better future for her children is surely on the mind of every woman when making the final decision to take the huge gamble they do when leaving their country going to a place unknown, it is much better to find a woman who is content with her life and does not want to leave as one who does.

The FSU women who are content with their life are not going to leave the FSU. These decisions to leave EVERYTHING behind are not created in a vacuum.


Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to improve her life for various self-interested reasons - better standard of living, better dating and marriage odds, more personal freedoms and privileges, etc. There is room for true love in the middle of all that.


I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.


We romanticize the FSU (not saying you are doing this) and there is a sort of Stockholm syndrome that exists.


For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT. 

[noelscot]

What's a 'Stone Cold Hoochie'?

Same as an irrawaddy cobra. God help you if you ever meet one in real life. Think the woman from James Cain's "Double Indemnity."

[noelscot]

To continue to touch on what Shadow said, I moved from the United States to Russia to live with my wife here.  We have no intention on leaving.  I also know Russians with American citizenship who have returned to live in Russia.  Meaning you point #4 is clashing with your point #2:

As long as you keep your head down and drink your vodka, I reckon Russia is okay. I applaud the people who want to stay in Russia and make the country the best that it can be.

[Kunstkammer]

As long as you keep your head down and drink your vodka, I reckon Russia is okay. I applaud the people who want to stay in Russia and make the country the best that it can be.

I don't drink nor do I passively walk around with my head down, hell I'm even involved in the ultras subculture far from 'keeping my head down' and Russia is still fine by me.  Again back to your point #2 - everybody is different.  If you need to be drunk and passively avoid contact with everyday people to be in Russia, I can see why you wouldn't want to live here.

[Shadow]

The FSU women who are content with their life are not going to leave the FSU. These decisions to leave EVERYTHING behind are not created in a vacuum.

Guess it depends on what kind of woman you search for. I had the general idea to avoid those who kept pointing towards their bad life.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to improve her life for various self-interested reasons - better standard of living, better dating and marriage odds, more personal freedoms and privileges, etc. There is room for true love in the middle of all that.

And those who are looking for an upgrade may continue to look once they find they still have options. To each his own though.

I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.

The majority of people I have talked to still invite us to live there with them instead of asking if they can get out too. Once again, it depends on where and how you search.

For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT.

Looking at several members living in the FSU, I would say this is not true either.

And if you read it literal it is even fully wrong, as immigration is the process of entering a country to live there. Which means that immigration is 100% IN, and emigration is 100% OUT.

[Belvis]

I get what you are saying, but most of the FSU people I have talked to in real life actively hate the FSU and would NEVER go back. Each person's experience may vary.

We romanticize the FSU (not saying you are doing this) and there is a sort of Stockholm syndrome that exists.

For some reason the immigration traffic is one-way, though, OUT.

Lol, one stereotype is substituted for another. I'll try to listed people I know personally so one can get idea about one-way traffic from Russia to USA. In random order:
1. My best friend, businessman. He had moved with wife in US 15 years ago. He had found no good oppotunities for himself to make good money there. Get back in Moscow after 1 year and now costs about 8 millions $,  sent his daughter in Oxford last fall.
2. Another good old friend, programmer. He immigrated in USA in 1990s, started from 30 k$ and now has income 148 k$. He's got US citizenship but do not mind return in Russia if can make here the same money (it means he'll stay there).
3. My good friend, programmer. 10 years ago he found a job in US for 45 k$, then upgraded to 75 k$. He likes being there, no intentions to return.
4. My student fellow. After graduated from Uni he immigrated in US in 1990s. He's become a professor there but as he told me he failed to make quality friends among locals. So he decided to return 5 years ago and start a new life in Moscow. His story is not typical though.
5. My student fellow, immigrated in US in 1990s. He failed to advance, worked at gas stations and Macdonalds. After 5 or so years in US he returned in Moscow and earn more money here than while in US.
6. My student fellow, immigrated in US in 1990s. It seems he has not built a career there  for over 15 years. He lost touch with russian life, so he has no other options but to stay there.
7. A woman I dated. She visited US on invitation from her good friends. They promised her help to settle there, however she decided it was not worth to exchange life in Sankt-P. for US.
8. A woman I was acquainted. She immigrated in US as biologist in 1990s. Permanent position, decent salalry. Only problem, she failed to get married.
9. My colleagues, who spent in US over 10 years. I have counted 4 of them. Fifty-fifty, two of them returned back in Russia because their families (a wife in one case, a daughter in another one) didn't like there.

It was my personal sample, for sure not representative. Seems we have plenty folks traumatized by Stockholm syndrome 

[jazztropy]

On the whole, I find the list useful.  I appreciate the positive intention behind it.

[calmissile]

noelscot,

Very good list and consistent with my exeriences.

[Daveman]

...

1) The FSUW are vastly different than other women. You need some special some special swami guru to guide you and charge you piles of money. Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)

...

Stereotypes are stereotypical for specific reasons, but I do agree. Appearance and fashion notwithstanding, they are not VASTLY different.  They are subtly (somewhat insidiously) different than WW. 

[Anotherkiwi]

...
8. A woman I was acquainted. She immigrated in US as biologist in 1990s. Permanent position, decent salalry. Only problem, she failed to get married...

Why is this a problem?     I'm divorced, and have been single for quite some time.  Yes, I would like to find that special someone, and maybe get married again, but it's not going to consume my life as I'm quite happy going along the way that I do.  This woman may be in the same position...then again, she may relish the freedom to date whoever she likes, however often she likes. 

[cc3]

Two long term relationships with FSUW: first was Russian, from Nizhny N., resident in US 14 years, now US citizen...for entire 2 year relationship, she attempted to persuade me to move with her back to St. Pete, where she owned an apartment; wasn't into her enough to commit to that; second is my UA fiancee, who, prior to me, rejected WM contacts because they all wanted her to emigrate from UA...I entered her life, we fell in love, I told her that I would live anywhere in the world to be with her...game over! We will marry and live in Luhansk as she continues her university studies and private English teaching career. When she is all degreed-up, she may re-think where she would like to live and work, but for now she is ecstatic that I am more than willing to move to her.   

[calmissile]

Why is this a problem?     I'm divorced, and have been single for quite some time.  Yes, I would like to find that special someone, and maybe get married again, but it's not going to consume my life as I'm quite happy going along the way that I do.  This woman may be in the same position...then again, she may relish the freedom to date whoever she likes, however often she likes. 

I assumed he meant that she had to return because she was still single and had something to do with the visa she arrived on.   Maybe  I misunderstood his post.

[calmissile]

Two long term relationships with FSUW: first was Russian, from Nizhny N., resident in US 14 years, now US citizen...for entire 2 year relationship, she attempted to persuade me to move with her back to St. Pete, where she owned an apartment; wasn't into her enough to commit to that; second is my UA fiancee, who, prior to me, rejected WM contacts because they all wanted her to emigrate from UA...I entered her life, we fell in love, I told her that I would live anywhere in the world to be with her...game over! We will marry and live in Luhansk as she continues her university studies and private English teaching career. When she is all degreed-up, she may re-think where she would like to live and work, but for now she is ecstatic that I am more than willing to move to her.   

Go for it!   In spite of the cynics, she may well be worth your sacrifices.  Let us know if living in Ukraine is the terrible life that some want to portray.   I am considering the same decision you have chosen, but is a little more complicated in my case.

I assume you have already evaluated the often stated expression  "When a Ukraine women is in love with you, there will be no ambiguity as to her intentions".

[cc3]

Go for it!   In spite of the cynics, she may well be worth your sacrifices.  Let us know if living in Ukraine is the terrible life that some want to portray.   I am considering the same decision you have chosen, but is a little more complicated in my case.

I assume you have already evaluated the often stated expression  "When a Ukraine women is in love with you, there will be no ambiguity as to her intentions".

There will be no sacrifices in moving to her; it's WIN/WIN for both of us! I have spent a total of two months living in Luhansk and am returning next week for another month. It's a curious town...a population of half a million, but it feels more intimate, walkable, and laid back than that population figure indicates. I am totally at ease there; in other similarly sized, or larger, cities (Kyiv, Donetsk, Simferopol, Sevastopol), I have not felt as comfortable. There are not a lot of transients (foreign or domestic) in Luhansk, because it basically is at the end of the road, as far as UA is concerned, next stop east: the Russian border. When the trees are leafed out, it is an extremely green city, with the depressing Soviet apartment blocks hidden from sight.

Being a retired airline pilot, with great travel benefits, we will not be "stuck" in Luhansk. I anticipate we will travel to the US 3 to 4 times a year, and to western/central Europe frequently. I will slowly acclimate her to the west; by the time she has all of the degrees that she is currently pursuing, she will have had enough  exposure to the west to make an informed choice. As for me, I really like Europe. Living in UA will  put me much closer to my favorite western European sites than living in the Rocky Mountains.

[Shostakovich]

Crikey, finally an entertaining thread on this site

2) There is no monolithic FSUW. All people are individuals with unique personalities and FSUW are like snowflakes, each unique. You make a huge error if you believe there is some sort of "easy" profiling you can use to figure out an individual woman's mind. There are commonalities, yes, but keep your spurs from jingling and jangling.


Nah - that is why it is called a culture: stamps a person in a certain way.


4) The FSU still has MAJOR problems, and the FSUW still want to leave. Lie to yourself and pump up your ego all you want, but the fact remains that women still want to leave the FSU because the standard of living and privileges are simply not as good as they are in the U.S. and other Western nations. As an experiment to verify this, find a FSU person with U.S. citizenship and offer them a one-way ticket back to the FSU. Let me know how quickly they jump on that opportunity.


Mostly true -- there are a few stalwarts, no doubt: but the feet cast the final vote.  Once in the west they generally stay there.  Brave new world you know: people's choice - trumps 1984 every time!


7) Listen to the advice of real life MEN who have been successfully married (never divorced) for DECADES. People who have long, successful business careers without screwing up are the type of people you would ask for business advice. The same holds for marriage advice. Ask the advice of real life people who are worldly and successful at marriage. The jaded people who fill you with poisonous words are not worth your time or energy.


Good-good, and how many decades married have we here: and you Noel?

Can't think of anything else earth-shattering at the moment.


Earth still stands despite it.

[Anotherkiwi]

...Being a retired airline pilot, with great travel benefits, we will not be "stuck" in Luhansk. I anticipate we will travel to the US 3 to 4 times a year, and to western/central Europe frequently. I will slowly acclimate her to the west; by the time she has all of the degrees that she is currently pursuing, she will have had enough  exposure to the west to make an informed choice...

This is your advantage in a nutshell.  You don't have a job which needs you to live in the USA (or New Zealand, Canada, Australia or wherever), and you presumably have the savings and pension which go with your former occupation, plus your existing property in the USA and of course all your free or 10% trips.  I would venture to say that very few (if any) other Forum members are in such an enviable position.  You can immediately decide to be with her - to live there, find out what it's like from both a personal and a cultural perspective, and then (and ONLY then) you will both decide where your future lies.
 
Can I please carry your suitcases?     Full-time?
 
 

[cc3]

This is your advantage in a nutshell.  You don't have a job which needs you to live in the USA (or New Zealand, Canada, Australia or wherever), and you presumably have the savings and pension which go with your former occupation, plus your existing property in the USA and of course all your free or 10% trips.  I would venture to say that very few (if any) other Forum members are in such an enviable position.  You can immediately decide to be with her - to live there, find out what it's like from both a personal and a cultural perspective, and then (and ONLY then) you will both decide where your future lies.
 
Can I please carry your suitcases?     Full-time?

So true!....but my airline crew suitcase has wheels and a handle...sorry!!! 

[Anotherkiwi]

So true!....but my airline crew suitcase has wheels and a handle...sorry!!! 

And since when are there ramps for the wheels crossing the streets and getting into buildings anywhere in Ukraine?  I've seen some in Russia, but not in Ukraine - but then, I haven't been to Luhansk! 

[jone]

I was talking to a friend of mine today and we were discussing the commitment to an FSUW.  I explained that my commitment would not be a convenient one.  It would be one that consumed my complete life and would change how I lived and where.  I also told him that while I still remain unsure of the outcome of my current commitment I saw myself living in Ukraine for at least a period of my future marriage, both out of love for the country but so that my future wife could acclimate to having a Western husband.  It is my hope that having children with my future wife will allow those children to experience life with their grandparents on their mother's side regardless of where we may be living.

In generations past, my great grandparents left Germany to come to the United States.  They didn't guess that they would have a chance to change their mind once they got here.  Accordingly, my personal items are currently in storage.  My home is rented and I am ambulatory for the sole purpose of seeing through to a resolution of a commitment.  I have revised my business activities so that I can run my operations from anywhere in the world.  My heart is not attracted just to the idea of wooing a wonderful FSU woman.  It is committed to the journey with that woman, where ever it may take us.  I am sure she will have much to say about where that might be.

Can we, in reality, expect that a woman will give up everything to live with a man in a foreign country?  If we do expect so, why then should a man not expect to give up his conveniences and his toys for a similar commitment abroad?  We live our lives once.  The trail we take will not be walked again.  I, for one, hope to experience everything that life has to offer.  So when it is time to lay down, I have done so with a smile of contentment for myself and those around me.

To those of you contemplating an FSUW, consider the level of commitment that you bring to a relationship.  Is it enough to make it work?  Or are you depending on your wife to make those sacrifices?

[Belvis]

I assumed he meant that she had to return because she was still single and had something to do with the visa she arrived on.   Maybe  I misunderstood his post.

She lives in SF for about 15 years, so she may have an american citizenship now. Actually if a person really wants to stay in US the visa  is not the most serious hurdle.
But she has something to do with her private life 

[Kunstkammer]

I have been living in Piter for four years now.  I work as an English teacher - an actual teacher mind you, not somebody who says "I speak English so I must be able to teach it" and does a bad job at it. I have now received my, eh I'll call it a 'Green Card' for ease of understanding, which means I have every right as a Russian citizen except that to vote.  I too have special circumstances like cc3, I'm only 33 but don't have to work again in my life if I didn't want to.  Even if I didn't have that security blanket, with my wife's good job and my teaching salary we would still be living comfortable here.


Anyways, the point I was getting to is this.  If you surround yourself in a bubble (IE: only women looking for relationships with foreign men) certainly your view is going to be skewed.  Of course I too am in a bit of a bubble - I live in the Northern Capital, not some godforsaken village 300 kilometers south of Perm, and the people I am around are not exactly poor so I could be skewed slightly the other way.  But here is the deal, as an English teacher I work with primarily women, most are young (< 30) and they all speak English.  They go abroad often, most have been to the US a number of times, whether it was work and travel or being a tourist.  None of them have any desire to live in the United States or anywhere but SPb.  We did have one teacher move to Germany, but half of here family was living there already her mother was East German and her father was a Soviet Air Force officer.  I have had probably over 500 students, a majority of which are female, probably a 60-40 split.  Again, they are learning English mostly for professional reasons, to advance in their company and make more money in Russia - not escape from their terrible 120 meter apartments, dachas, fitness club memberships, weekly sushi lunches with friends and Volkswagens.


I don't know, I spend a lot of time around and with regular everyday Russians and I just don't see some desperate need to escape because of how terrible the country is.  Of course this is only my experience and it is in a large city.  I am not going to be like the OP and claim my observation is absolute.