Hello everyone, new to RWD and going to Russia on May 8th

[SANDRO43]

My friend is 1/2 Jewish and 1/2 Russian on the one side, and 3\4 Russian and 1/4 Jewish (one grandparent) on the other side. She consideres herself 1/3 Jewish  Who am I to correct her arithmetics? 

Rather odd fractions, do Russians consider a religion equivalent to a nationality ? Or are your Russian numbers meant to mean Orthodoxy ?

[Misha]

Rather odd fractions, do Russians consider a religion equivalent to a nationality ? Or are your Russian numbers meant to mean Orthodoxy ?

They consider Jewish as a nationality in my experience. Other religions are not considered nationalities.

[felix8787]

Hey Wienerin
Your welcome, I am not ashamed to say that I went there for that amount of time for one woman, some people would have done it differently, but I didn't have a trip in mind to speed date or go to local agencies and pick and chose my liking. I wanted real interaction with this one lady who and still continue to talk to, we both understand that just because I was there for that amount of time, that it is actually very little time between us and that more time is still needed if this relationship grows and prospers, we both have feelings for each other. I was saddened by me leaving there, but that is the way it is, she wishes that I wasn't leaving and so does her son. Right now the future is open to any possibilities and those possibilities are endless.
When we are together with her son, it's all about her son but when we had to rare moments alone it was all about each other (knock on wood). I am not there to flog the situation and rationalize the situation and made efforts to understand it, communication is a big big part with me. IMO communication is plays a big big role in any relationship, I think without it you would just be talking to a fleshy stump. And I don't think people would like that regardless of how good anything else is.
You didn't seem harsh at all, that is why I had to ask Doll I think in point 3 why is she trying to rally people with those thoughts. It just didn't make any sense to me. I don't know if that is her way of thinking, that men in relationships should just sit back and take it regardless of how bad it seems.
Yeah I was somewhat disappointed by how things turned out but the end result was good and I didn't come away with any harsh thought towards her about all of this.
I put this up on my trip report, so I copied and I'll paste it on here, but what I have said pretty much sums it up.

"For what it's worth, I did enjoy my time there and when I did finally got devoted time with her, it was well worth the wait and quiet honestly I wished that we had more of it. But we are talking on the phone and I'm am planning on going back, I think that more physical interaction and face to face time is needed, to see where this goes, I have said it before in my other post and I will say it again, she is a wonderful wonderful woman and I can see myself with her for life, but more time is needed to sort everything out and see where it stands." End quote

Thanks for the best hopes and I hope that things work out also Wienerin.

felix8787

[SANDRO43]

They consider Jewish as a nationality in my experience. Other religions are not considered nationalities.

Therefore a Russian Jew is not really a Russian, but just a Jew ? Odd notion, but could explain some lingering anti-Semitism. Here Italian Jews are generally considered Italians first, and Jews only second (at least, after we god rid of Fascism, which reduced their numbers to their current 45,000 ).

[Doll]

Rather odd fractions

What is odd?

[Misha]

Therefore a Russian Jew is not really a Russian, but just a Jew ? Odd notion, but could explain some lingering anti-Semitism. Here Italian Jews are generally considered Italians first, and Jews only second (at least, after we god rid of Fascism, which reduced their numbers to their current 45,000 ).

It is not necessary to be practice the faith to be Jewish by nationality. During Soviet times, "Jewish" was one of the categories for nationality, and in later  years, if both of your parents would have been "Jewish" as recorded in their passports, then the children would not have had any choice in the matter as to which nationality would have been recorded in their internal passport. Given the antisemitism, a person with a Russian parent by passport and a Jewish parent by passport would have picked the Russian nationality.

[SANDRO43]

It is not necessary to be practice the faith to be Jewish by nationality. During Soviet times, "Jewish" was one of the categories for nationality, and in later  years, if both of your parents would have been "Jewish" as recorded in their passports, then the children would not have had any choice in the matter as to which nationality would have been recorded in their internal passport.

I see, a legacy from Soviet times. I wonder what prompted them to make such a distinction, also considering that a lot of early Marxists were Jews (or maybe that was a compelling reason ?).

What is odd?

Juxtaposing a religion (that can be anywhere) to a nationality (that is usually geographical), at least in my view (apples/oranges). But Misha just explained its origin - though I must say it sounds very much like how the Nazis reasoned in matters of race.

[Wienerin]

Rather odd fractions, do Russians consider a religion equivalent to a nationality ? Or are your Russian numbers meant to mean Orthodoxy ?

In Soviet Russia a Jew was a Jew was a Jew - whatever his/her religious affiliation or lack thereof. Old Russia considered ONLY religion - so in the documents one was Orthodox, Jew, Muslim, Lutheran, etc. In Soviet passport there was a 5th line - nationality, i.e. ethnicity (hence the wry joke "disabled by the 5th line"), which wroked rather consistently - Russian, Ukrainian, Tartar, German, etc. - until it came to the Jews  

[ScottinCrimea]

I've read that some Jews would be baptised into a Christian faith in an effort to avoid the purges.  Did this make any difference or were they still classified as Jews in the eyes of the state?

[Wienerin]

I've read that some Jews would be baptised into a Christian faith in an effort to avoid the purges.  Did this make any difference or were they still classified as Jews in the eyes of the state?

Oh, my! What country we are talking about? What time? Yes, in Mediaeval Europe baptism AND (very important!) close adherence to Chistian rites were a guarantee (well, almost ) sagainst persecution and massacres|pogroms. In Old Russia, before the October Revolution baptism was a way not only to avoid a pogrom, but be able to leave the Pale of Settlement, to enter a university, to hold any position or state job which one could attain. After the revolution and specially during the 30s - a period of political kangaroo trials by Stalin called to purify, i.e. "purge" the people's rule - it didn't matter a hoot if you were baptized or a zen-buddist - Uncle Joe was non-discriminative, he hated everyone

[Ronnie]

I see, a legacy from Soviet times. I wonder what prompted them to make such a distinction, also considering that a lot of early Marxists were Jews (or maybe that was a compelling reason ?).
Juxtaposing a religion (that can be anywhere) to a nationality (that is usually geographical), at least in my view (apples/oranges). But Misha just explained its origin - though I must say it sounds very much like how the Nazis reasoned in matters of race.

While it may be a legacy from Soviet times, it goes back to the dawn of recorded time.  Jews are a people more than a faith.  And it is not just the SU that makes the distinction.  Jacques Chirac once reported on a tragedy that involved the deaths of 4 Frenchmen....and 3 Jews!  He caught flak for the statement but he was only voicing the traditional view cultivated over the ages.  Further, many Jews themselves consider they are internationalists.  Most notable were Marx and Trotsky.

Marxism and Bolshevism became entwined with one another because of a Jewish connection.  It's not discussed much by historians but the Russian Revolution was not a revolution at all but a coup d' etat by "professional revolutionaries" which is a euphemism for Jewish Internationalists.  Lenin was not a Jew but he was bright and Russian and that made him their natural leader after the merger of the Bosheviks and Mensheviks.

Read this excerpt from Wiki...

As the Russian Revolution of 1905 progressed, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks and smaller non-Russian social democratic parties operating within the Russian Empire attempted to reunify at the Fourth (Unification) Congress of the RSDLP held at Folkets hus, Norra Bantorget in Stockholm, April 1906. With the Mensheviks ("The minority") striking an alliance with the Jewish Bund, the Bolsheviks found themselves in a minority

History is not always a friend to truth when the truth is harsh or seen as possibly politically incorrect.

[SANDRO43]

While it may be a legacy from Soviet times, it goes back to the dawn of recorded time. Jews are a people more than a faith.

Ronnie, I'm well aware of that, and of the likely reasons behind their need to preserve their identity when not welcomed in an alien country, almost a general rule with few exceptions such as Moorish Spain and Leghorn, the latter case a little-known shrewd move in the late 1500s by Ferdinando I de' Medici, then Grand Duke of Tuscany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinando_I_de'_Medici%2C_Grand_Duke_of_Tuscany), which eventually caused the city to have, percentage-wise, the largest Jewish community in Italy.

History is not always a friend to truth when the truth is harsh or seen as possibly politically incorrect.

I'm not unduly bothered by political incorrectness, but I found it strange that some old views should still crop up in this 3rd Millennium.

I don't want to sound judgemental, we are facing a similar problem here with the recent inflood of Rumanian gypsies, and Berlusconi's new right-wing government is now rattling sabres about how best to handle illegal immigrants, immigrants from other UE countries with no official job/residence, etc. etc.

To us, Italian gypsies are first of all gypsies, rather than Italians (and probably they think the same, too, but it's not based upon religion ).

[Wienerin]

While it may be a legacy from Soviet times, it goes back to the dawn of recorded time.  Jews are a people more than a faith.

 

"Technically" speaking Jews were Hebrew - Semites, of one of the 13 tribes, that of Judah (hence Judea). Professing Mosaic Law under the Covenant with G-d. Judaism as religion and for religious observing Jew is first and foremost a way of life. Under the Jewish law - Halachah - only one born from a Jewish mother (or converted to Judaism) is a Jew. With two more conditions - that one never practiced any other religion (not practicing Judaism is OK BTW - it's a matter of your conscience and personal relationship with G-d) and never participated in persecution of Jews. Otherwise, say, Torquemada would be considered a Jew.

So the Soviets performed a remarkable anthropological feat declaring that part of their citizens - atheists, with no knowledge of tradition, with the same way of life as hundreds of millions Soviet citizens, with no common language, culture or place of residence different from surrounding people, with maybe 1 Jewish forbear - and through male descent (as seen by patronymics and family names) - were designated Jews with some interesting consequences...

And it is not just the SU that makes the distinction.

 
Come on! 

Jacques Chirac once reported on a tragedy that involved the deaths of 4 Frenchmen....and 3 Jews!  He caught flak for the statement but he was only voicing the traditional view cultivated over the ages. 

It's an interesting statement - especially in view of the fact that Napoleon gave the French Jews equal civil rights and legally recognized them as Frenchmen - same as any other. And I do not accept your justification, sorry. It was nasty and every people would be better without such "tradition". How would you like hearing from the President something like "4 American firemen died, and 2 Irish, 3 Poles... etc."?

Further, many Jews themselves consider they are internationalists.

 
I do not know such people - not one? let alone "many". My family lived in Russia for more than 200 years, and for the last 160 - in StPetersburg. We ARE NOT "internationalists" or any such crap ... do you call 3-4generation Italians, Irish, German, etc. not Americans but "internationalists" - or you only reserve this "traditional view" for the Jews?

Most notable were Marx and Trotsky.

Most notable for what? They didn't consider themselves Jews - granted.

I myself, my children, my relatives and friends, hundreds of "Jews" of FSU would have long since stopped considering themselves Jews if not for the environment which constantly reminded us. Do you really think it is such fun to emigrate (and until very recently emigration was forever - you couldn't come back, couldn't see your friends and family ever again) - to start life in a different country, different culture, leave everything and everyone in many cases dear to you?

Marxism and Bolshevism became entwined with one another because of a Jewish connection.  It's not discussed much by historians but the Russian Revolution was not a revolution at all but a coup d' etat by "professional revolutionaries" which is a euphemism for Jewish Internationalists.  Lenin was not a Jew but he was bright and Russian and that made him their natural leader after the merger of the Bosheviks and Mensheviks.

Read this excerpt from Wiki...

maybe we'd better invite some nice guys from the Black Hundred or KKK - for meaningful participation in this learned discourse? Or discuss the latest by David Duke? How about some Christian baby blood for Passover matzoh?

History is not always a friend to truth when the truth is harsh or seen as possibly politically incorrect.

History is always "a friend to the truth" and vice versa - obly where are the history and the truth in your statements?

[Misha]

"Technically" speaking Jews were Hebrew - Semites, of one of the 13 tribes, that of Judah (hence Judea).

Historically, there is one fascinating exception: the Khazars were a Turkic-speaking population that established a kingdom in what is now Southern Russia and the Caucuses at the end of the first millennium. The Khazars adopted Judaism as the state religion. It is the only case that I know of historically of mass conversion to Judaism and the adoption of Judaism as the state religion of a medieval state. Wikipedia provides a nice summary of Khazar history.

[Wienerin]

Yes, khazars are an interesting aberration though stricly speaking they didn't "convert" to Judaism and the discord is ever ripe as to what extent Khazaria was "Jewish"... But still - the were Khazars practicing Judaism - not "Jews" by passport or great-grandfather or propinquity to dark rites with Christian babies or launching revolutions upon unsuspecting and not very bright Russians (how did revolutions happen not once but twice in France and also in Germany - G-d only knows )

[Andrew]

I've read that some Jews would be baptised into a Christian faith in an effort to avoid the purges.  Did this make any difference or were they still classified as Jews in the eyes of the state?

As the story goes, in my family anyway, my great grandfather was baptised into the christian faith, but it was not enough for the state. In order to change his "status" he had to have a funeral and an empty coffin was buried and a tombstone erected bearing his name. After that, all was "peachy", he was no longer a Jew. Oh yeah, he was ostracized by the rest of the Jewish family 

[Wienerin]

As the story goes, in my family anyway, my great grandfather was baptised into the christian faith, but it was not enough for the state. In order to change his "status" he had to have a funeral and an empty coffin was buried and a tombstone erected bearing his name. After that, all was "peachy", he was no longer a Jew. Oh yeah, he was ostracized by the rest of the Jewish family 

I think that in retelling your family story got somewhat garbled. For the state the certificate of baptisms was totally satisfactory. A person was therefore a Russian Orthodox with all the rights. The state was completely indifferent to how his Jewish family and community regarded him or her.

But for the Jewish ultra-orthodox, Haredim, this was another story. A person baptised into a Christian faith was as if he died fro the Jewish community. The immediate family (father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, and spouse), rent their clothes, smeared their faces with ashes, took their shoes off and sat on the floor in shivah - that is in mourning - for 1 week (shivah means seven in Hebrew). The mourners' prayers were said, etc. As opposite to the real death there would have been no rememberance in prayer after these 7 days - the name would be never mentioned again.

The rest of the story is pure fiction under the influence of Christian customs. No coffin is used for Jewish burial. The tombstone is erected as late as 1 year after the burial. No mock burial (with commemorating of the name that should be as if it never was - take heart, guys! whar would be the point?) is or can be performed for an apostate.

Mind, this formal obliterating of a person from a Jewish community was mostly outdated - except for the very strict chassidic sects - by the 19 c. Quite a number
of Jews were baptised in order to make progress in Russian society by the revolution, and everyone understood the reason. One can - except for the minds of the very strict - to convert in order to escape persecution. It's remarkable though what a comparatively small number did - and even those mainly paid lip service to their new religion (and many remained practicing Jews in secret - even under the dire threat of being burned at stake as in Spain).

It's a somewhat different story, though, when a person converts out of conviction. Sad truth is that many of the most evil persecutors of Jews in history were converts, so there is some justification in considering them dead for the Jewish world.

Still, to wind up with this discussion, many (and now most) of the later Jewish scholars say that this custom has no root in Torah and further teachings http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v44/mj_v44i22.html#CFH

And - to repeat myself - the state didn't give a hoot whether anyone was mourned or not But it's interesting how some myths persist - though it's a first time that I read this particular one.

[felix8787]

LOL, well this thread took on a whole new turn. LOL
From my trip to Religion.

[Wienerin]

LOL, well this thread took on a whole new turn. LOL
From my trip to Religion.

I see that you are new to internet discussions The general "rule of thumb" will be that the discussion will stray when there is nothing to be added to the initial subject. In your case - what is there to say when you yourself opened a new thread with "full disclosure"?
Though I agree that this new turn calls for a new thread, but for the life of me I cannot imagine how to name it. "A Jewish question", maybe? 

[Ronnie]

It's your own darn fault Felix!  You opened the door a crack with saying you're 1/3 Viet and we just kicked it wide open on ya'.   You'll know next time to use the peep hole instead.
 

[felix8787]

LOL, I'll keep that in mind next time Ronnie 

[Jet]

You'll know next time to use the peep hole instead.

Well Felix, you're not an internet virgin anymore 

[felix8787]

Jet,

Wow!!! I feel banged up, used, then thrown out.........


ROFLMAO!!!!

felix8787