What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[BillyB]

Putin made a bold move into Crimea, then paused and awaited the response of his opponents. I don't think he has been impressed and is now contemplating which next move will give him the path of least resistance to getting the result he wants from the game, though I am unsure what his true goal is.

Putin wants more. That's his true goal. He's weighing the costs and so far the costs aren't great.


Putin has agents in Eastern Ukraine to gain support of pro Russian citizens and to find the right guy who can win the election in less than two months. Unless the UN monitors this election, Putin will rig it and win it.


If Putin's puppet in the election loses, Putin will decide his next move. He could give up and end this thing or dismiss the election and claim Yanukovich is still Ukraine's legitimate president and/or claim ethnic Russians are oppressed in which case military force will be used to right these wrongs.


The only reason Putin will use military force before the May 25 election is if he believes he can't alter the election results, which becomes significantly more difficult if there are UN monitors there.


Putin made similar troop movements before going into Chechnya and Georgia. He has a reputation of using his troops when he moves them on somebody's front door.

China is not really supporting Putin, but will they be supporting the US by buying the bonds needed to finance such a war?

I think China will take a neutral stance. They will not support Russia's moves in Eastern Europe and they will not support sanctions. Sanctions against Russia will actually help China's economy since Russia will sell their oil cheap and China will have increased business from those who will not buy from Russia. China is an opportunist. If they see Russia beating and crippling America, they will help Russia with the kill. They have ambitions of being the top dog in this world and expanding their borders. China will be nice to us only if we stay strong. Like many bad boys in this world, they will only respect strength.

[BC]

I hope you are not saying that we should then throw our arms up in the air and say "Fcuk it" because we don't have "much more" as compared to our world leaders.
 
Come to think of it, they became world leaders (well, most of them) because WE didn't say "Fcuk it" and threw our arms up in the air.
 
Point is if we do not look at what is happening to our world, then we shouldn't complain at all, right?
 
Besides, those world leaders are very fond of those assholes, er..., opinions because they do look constantly at where the assholes are pointing.
 
Watch out!!! Incoming!  
Silent but deadly.

Muzh,

throw up our arms, no.. we each have one opin and vote so that will not go away.  How that vote is interpreted is another thing alltogether...

[BC]

Billy B,

Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's?  How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?

[Muzh]

I don't think the US is going to Eastern Europe to kick ass. Notice how we've been shying away from conflicts there. No stomach. However, I think it is time for another US to take charge, The US of E.

[BillyB]

Billy B,

Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's?  How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?

BC, I know you're coming in late to this and similar threads but earlier I've made my views clear about Russia. I don't see these current events in the world as a struggle between good and evil. It's normal for countries to protect their interests and I respect Putin for pursuing his interests so I'm not surprised by the current events. With that said, Putin and the rest of the world should not be upset if America steps on someone's nuts when pursuing our interests. What are our interests?


There is a difference though on how America and Russia would like to see the world exist. Russia may like to see Ukraine and the world on its knees and in chains. America would like the world to do business with us but on their own free will just as many ex Soviet satellite nations have done.


America has used force or influence elections to change regimes in nations but that usually comes after a hostile event towards us such as what happened in 9/11 or to get rid of a leader that supports our enemies. Just as your wife would be happy if you stop threats to your family, we should be happy our nations stop threats to our way of life.

[Faux Pas]

I think China will take a neutral stance. They will not support Russia's moves in Eastern Europe and they will not support sanctions. Sanctions against Russia will actually help China's economy since Russia will sell their oil cheap and China will have increased business from those who will not buy from Russia. China is an opportunist. If they see Russia beating and crippling America, they will help Russia with the kill. They have ambitions of being the top dog in this world and expanding their borders. China will be nice to us only if we stay strong. Like many bad boys in this world, they will only respect strength.

Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now. China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia. Other than the current diarrhea of the mouth being spewed by the West. Which might explain more why the West is hesitant to act against Putin other than Obama's yellow backbone

[GQBlues]

Billy B,

Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's?  How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?

If you meant *specially-trained, military-for-hire, ex-special forces* Non-Governmental Organization. then the answer is, IMHO, absolutely yessirree Bobski!. And they got there way before Putin's *self-defense* force who, incidentally, weren't really there.

[calmissile]

Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now. China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia. Other than the current diarrhea of the mouth being spewed by the West. Which might explain more why the West is hesitant to act against Putin other than Obama's yellow backbone

+1  We are  in agreement!

[fathertime]

I think the cost if Russia were to continue invade other areas would be tremendous (not referring to just western sanctions) and I think Putin realizes this.  That is one reason why I don’t think he is going any further than he already has.  As it stands now, it appears the cost will probably be worth the benefit regarding Crimea
I’m seeing references to Hitler like speeches, although when I’ve heard Putin speak or read the transcripts he appears composed and logical. Perhaps somebody can reference one of these Hitleresque type speeches, because I’d like to read it.   


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

I just read that Tymoshenko is running for president.  I read some revolting apparently leaked comments about nuking 8 million Russians, which she is now disputing I guess. Based on her other comments, I think she probably did say it. 


In addition In Kiev she gave a wild emotional speech, in which she even cried, and in a call to arms wants all the Russians killed. 


Maybe prison was a good place for her.  I sure hope she doesn't win. 


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-ex-pm-tymoshenko-arms-kill-russians-174050924.html#5wwvdBN


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

This is what Ukraine, NATO & the US will be going up against.  They have seen action in Georgia, Chechnya and now Syria.



FT, this is your Army - a country you can feel proud of.

[BillyB]

Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now.

If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.

I’m seeing references to Hitler like speeches, although when I’ve heard Putin speak or read the transcripts he appears composed and logical. Perhaps somebody can reference one of these Hitleresque type speeches, because I’d like to read it.   

Nobody is seeing Putin scream and shout with emotion like Hitler but his words and reasoning's for his actions are similar in an attempt to get his citizens fired up. Here's a video. There are more comparisons out there but in the end, it's up to the reader/listener on what they want to believe. Putin is ex KGB. He's a pro at propaganda and getting the people to believe and do what he wants. He's read up on history, has lots of experience, and understands what works and doesn't work.


 

I just read that Tymoshenko is running for president. 

It would be a mistake to elect her. She's too emotional and wants revenge. She was elected in the past and was part of a failed government and didn't deliver her promise in reforming the country. Ukraine needs a leader to represent all people fairly, not just the west side.


Anybody watch the 45 minute speech Obama made in Brussels the other day? Obama started off clumsy but found his stride. He tried to get Europe to believe Ukrainians are like them and are experiencing the same struggles Europeans have had in past wars. He wanted Europeans to have sympathy for Ukrainians. He asked that all NATO nations live up to their obligations in NATO. I suspect although Russia has made bold moves, European countries aren't taking it as serious as they should for their own security. Obama didn't talk tough about Russia but I got the impression that he believes it isn't over and hinting that Europe better step up by having a more active and financial role in their security. Maybe their lack of interest in their own security is due to their belief America will bail them out?

[Faux Pas]

If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.

That just went over your head, didn't it?

[tfcrew]

[BillyB]

That just went over your head, didn't it?

Are we talking about what you highlighted in bold of mine in a quote or not? That bold you highlighted was not referring to just an economic war although the theme of your response was. If you want to talk about China's economic stance if a war broke out, next time highlight my opinions pertaining to China's economic stance. I'll address your thoughts below.

China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia.

China would prefer an all out war between Russian and America but if all this amounts to is an economic war between USA and Russia, China will benefit but they would not side with the West in a heartbeat as you say. They are not our friends. Nothing personal, just business. They have shown to take a neutral stance at the UN time and time again pertaining to all issues that are Russian. They refused to join America at the UN and condemn the recent actions of Russia. China and Russia have held military training exercises together and had diplomatic talks. Those events in the past are frequent enough for us to be concern about. Russia and China have exchanged ideas on the best way to compete and deal with America and dismiss the dollar as the world's currency.


Because Russia has veto rights at the UN, the UN can't take any action against them so, China doesn't have any obligation to sanction Russia. It's hard enough to get America and Europe to put sanctions on Russia. In the event of strong sanctions, China will remain neutral and continue to enjoy economic benefits from both sides while we weaken each other.

[fathertime]

If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.



Nobody is seeing Putin scream and shout with emotion like Hitler but his words and reasoning's for his actions are similar in an attempt to get his citizens fired up. Here's a video. There are more comparisons out there but in the end, it's up to the reader/listener on what they want to believe. Putin is ex KGB. He's a pro at propaganda and getting the people to believe and do what he wants. He's read up on history, has lots of experience, and understands what works and doesn't work.

Hey Billyb!


I looked at that short Utube video...interesting, thanks for the posting it.   Yes similar things are said as it pertains to Crimea and The Sudetenland.  In my opinion the situation has some similarities so it makes sense that many statements would align and that he would rally for support from his fellow Russians.  I really don't think that makes Putin like Hitler though.  One important difference is that Hitler went on to invade many hostile countries after The Sudetenland....Putin has not, and it doesn't appear to me that he will (although he obviously has the military capability to).   I think it is too early to make such a comparison... If Putin starts large scale invasions of hostile regions then it gives more validity to the comparison.   


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

To the Putler denier:

[Faux Pas]

Sometimes Billy you surprise me with what you do know and say, then, you say something right after that like now, that negates all of it and we're back at ground zero 

Are we talking about what you highlighted in bold of mine in a quote or not? That bold you highlighted was not referring to just an economic war although the theme of your response was. If you want to talk about China's economic stance if a war broke out, next time highlight my opinions pertaining to China's economic stance. I'll address your thoughts below.

Yes, I was addressing only what was in bold. It's not that hard to follow. The rest of it was nothing more than dribble.

China would prefer an all out war between Russian and America but if all this amounts to is an economic war between USA and Russia, China will benefit but they would not side with the West in a heartbeat as you say. They are not our friends. Nothing personal, just business.

China would prefer to be sitting on mountains of gold controlling the worlds economy, have the worlds military power. So would Russia and every other country in the world but, they don't. China and Russia together can not defeat America militarily or economically. Thus, what China or Russia would "like to see" is a moot point. You had just as well stated they wanted Fairies and unicorns. Geopolitics is business to every country Billy. In case you haven't noticed, the worlds powers do not go to war against each other. They only do that by pushing the 2nd and 3rd world countries into war and support opposing sides, in the last 75 years any ways. Might isn't which countries have the most bodies in their armies. Might is which countries have the best armies and wield the strongest economic influence. China and Russia together are no match for the U.S.

They have shown to take a neutral stance at the UN time and time again pertaining to all issues that are Russian. They refused to join America at the UN and condemn the recent actions of Russia. China and Russia have held military training exercises together and had diplomatic talks. Those events in the past are frequent enough for us to be concern about. Russia and China have exchanged ideas on the best way to compete and deal with America and dismiss the dollar as the world's currency.

That's a firm grasp of the obvious you have there. Congrats. But, it's no secret Billy. India, Iran and Brazil would like to change the world's currency too. Britian would like to have it back on the sterling but, it ain't going to happen. The Yuan is tied to the dollar. If the dollar dies, so goes the Yuan. Russia, China, India and others are buying as much gold as they can find but, they can't come close even if they put them together.

Because Russia has veto rights at the UN, the UN can't take any action against them so, China doesn't have any obligation to sanction Russia. It's hard enough to get America and Europe to put sanctions on Russia. In the event of strong sanctions, China will remain neutral and continue to enjoy economic benefits from both sides while we weaken each other.

Don't fool yourself. China won't remain neutral anytime. It will fuel whichever fire better suits it's need. China and Russia are not friends. The US and China are not friends. Russia and the US are not friends. They, with a dozen other countries work in unison together, against each other. The UN is nothing more than a saloon where they all hang out, form dark alliances against each other and pal up to their enemies and form the boogeyman that peons like you and I discuss on forums

[BillyB]

In case you haven't noticed, the worlds powers do not go to war against each other. They only do that by pushing the 2nd and 3rd world countries into war and support opposing sides, in the last 75 years any ways.

Nations behaviors in the last 75 years tells you what their behavior is going to be like in the future? In that case there will be no more world wars and as John Kerry said, nations don't invade other countries in the 21st century based off his observations in the last few years. You and John Kerry can't pick and choose the date to judge the future by.

Don't fool yourself. China won't remain neutral anytime. It will fuel whichever fire better suits it's need.

I guess I've fooled myself, so help me out. Give me some examples where China aligned themselves with America against Russia and aligned themselves with Russia against America in the UN or anywhere for that matter? They have been and will remain neutral to the events in the past and events in Ukraine so don't expect China to join America in sanctioning Russia if they invade again just because they like our business.


Russia and America aren't going to stop doing business with China if they remain neutral. If China fuels the fire of one of those nations as you suggest, they'll definitely lose the business of the other.

Sometimes Billy you surprise me with what you do know and say, then, you say something right after that like now, that negates all of it and we're back at ground zero 

I don't expect everybody to understand me, just the smart people.

[jone]

Two observations:

1.  The US is beyond belief in military might alone through the drones they are able to put up to defeat mechanized columns.  In a conventional war, US wins, hands down.  In the same thought process, the US Air Force still has a sustainable advantage against both the Russians and Chinese, but not without suffering great casualties.  Russia has no stealth technology.  China does, but not in great numbers.

2.  Anybody who missed it, the Chinese have made some bold moves in Africa while everyone's eyes were on Eastern Europe.  All within the last two months.  Hmm.  Pretty prescient of them, if you ask me.

[Faux Pas]

Nations behaviors in the last 75 years tells you what their behavior is going to be like in the future? In that case there will be no more world wars and as John Kerry said, nations don't invade other countries in the 21st century based off his observations in the last few years. You and John Kerry can't pick and choose the date to judge the future by.


I guess I've fooled myself, so help me out. Give me some examples where China aligned themselves with America against Russia and aligned themselves with Russia against America in the UN or anywhere for that matter? They have been and will remain neutral to the events in the past and events in Ukraine so don't expect China to join America in sanctioning Russia if they invade again just because they like our business.

More dribble and circular logic Billy. Why don't you give an example of 2 world powers that went to war with each other in the last 75 years?

I don't expect everybody to understand me, just the smart people.

Based on your ramblings here, that would be anyone with an IQ over 40? You really should engage in adult conversation in real life sometimes.

[Belvis]

Guys, take a break.
How the last events in Ukraine look in eyes of creative personalities.

Russia celebrates reunion with Crimea:



Ukrainians are proud to be Ukrainians:



Because they fiercely fought  at barricades during Kiev's uprising. And win!



Though some artists are not so sure in the bright future of Ukrainian Revolution. You know, economics, permanent civil conflics, the crafty designs of Moscow, etc. :



And Moscow is the main enemy now, of course:

[Hammer2722]

Nice artwork!

[Muzh]

I think Ukraine stopped sitting on their hands.
 
TSN.UA
 
TSN.UA

[fathertime]

I think Ukraine stopped sitting on their hands.
 
TSN.UA
 
TSN.UA

links don't work for me.

Two observations:
 

2.  Anybody who missed it, the Chinese have made some bold moves in Africa while everyone's eyes were on Eastern Europe.  All within the last two months.  Hmm.  Pretty prescient of them, if you ask me.

Hi Jone!


I missed the bold Chinese moves in Africa...What exactly have they done in the past couple months?   I know recently that China has shown a lotta interest in Africa. Seems like a smart move going forward.

 

Russia and America aren't going to stop doing business with China if they remain neutral. If China fuels the fire of one of those nations as you suggest, they'll definitely lose the business of the other.

It seems like a smart move for China to not take either side too strongly.  I suspect they are more supportive of Russia though, if for nothing else it keeps us wasting money on too much military expense which we really can't even use because nobody wants to go to war with another nuclear power. 
Fathertime!