Who do you dress up for?

[I/O]

Ah, it's about skirts and heels. I thought it was a drag queen thread by the title.............

[Lily]

On the other hand, many business women I have dealt with in FSU have said to me (with respect to their looks):  "All what we do, we do for men."

 

Where do I sign?

[mies]

An interesting but somewhat contradictory reply mies.
You start by saying you dress "to show respect to people around me", but you end by saying these very same people only care about what they wear and don't care about what you are wearing.

So why would you try to show respect for people who don't care about your efforts?

it does look like somewhat self-contradicting, yet it tackles various dimensions of life. To give you an allegory: if a person does not fart while at the concert of chamber music- nobody notices it, however if a person farts loudly - people around probably will notice it and will experience certain degree of negative emotions for a second or two. Now, not farting - is an example of complying with certain etiquette rules and showing respect to people around. Similar to an effort to look groomed and nicely dressed - to contribute into the atmosphere of a special event, where everyone looks nicely and is groomed and dressed well.

Taking the same allegory of a theater - everyone makes an effort to look nice/beautiful/handsome, and at certain point, may feel that if he/she spent so much effort to look nice - other people absolutely must notice it. They must notice my perfect new dress, and wonderful shoes, and the make-up or a haircut from the most expensive hair salon in the city. While there are many people at the concert, and most certainly they came to the concert not to admire the other nicely dressed people, but to listen to music and to show off their own dresses and haircuts. The other nicely dressed people are merely a background for them.

You do have a point when you ask whether it is worthwhile making an effort to look nice for people who do not care about it. And my reply is "yes, it is worthwhile", because people, even if they do not pay much attention to what you are wearing - nevertheless, will pay in kind and will try to look nice. It is a self-reinforcing system. So you will end up having nice-looking people around, and yet you may not care about small details of their appearance - overall having a nice background is more pleasant than having un-groomed and poorly dressed people around - with bad skin, bad breath, lousy haircuts, and bad clothes.  

[CanadaMan]

... To give you an allegory: if a person does not fart while at the concert of chamber music- nobody notices it, however if a person farts loudly - people around probably will notice it and will experience certain degree of negative emotions for a second or two. Now, not farting - is an example of complying with certain etiquette rules and showing respect to people around. Similar to an effort to look groomed and nicely dressed - to contribute into the atmosphere of a special event, where everyone looks nicely and is groomed and dressed well.

Taking the same allegory of a theater - everyone makes an effort to look nice/beautiful/handsome, and at certain point, may feel that if he/she spent so much effort to look nice - other people absolutely must notice it.

I must say mies, you do have a certain way with words!
You clarified your position nicely overall.
I wonder though whether you had intended to give analogies rather than allegories?

You got me wondering...hmmmm....
If a tree farts in the woods, will anyone hear it? 

[mies]

I wonder though whether you had intended to give analogies rather than allegories?

Thank you, CanadaMan
I was using a symbolic, rather than direct meaning of a certain situation (theater, and the way people act). Therefore, I believe, an "allegory" would be more appropriate term than "analogy" :-). But in this particular case, my example is quite close to analogy too.

to bring analogy: when I am using an allegory of a prison - I am not comparing the actual prison with the life outside prison, but i am using the symbolic meaning of the "prison" that may have to do with the limits of person's body, or social circumstances, or upbringing. In contrast, if I were comparing some very specific daily routine of prisoners with the similar daily routine of a, let's say soldier - than it will be more an analogy than allegory.

I may be wrong though in the choice of terms. If I am- I will be thankful for correction

[SANDRO43]

To give you an allegory: if a person does not fart while at the concert of chamber music- nobody notices it, however if a person farts loudly - people around probably will notice it and will experience certain degree of negative emotions for a second or two.

However, with a symphony orchestra or marching band that includes sousaphones, the sound would probably escape notice, or be construed as part of the score .

Oompah, oompah .

[SANDRO43]

To give you an allegory: if a person does not fart while at the concert of chamber music - nobody notices it...

Furthermore, your farting analogy - it's too literal and not sufficiently symbolic to be considered an allegory - is logically flawed in its first part. By definition, a non-fart CANNOT be noticed, unless:

- The observer is a structuralist like Roland Barthes, who might consider this non-event as le degré zéro of farting. 
- The non-farter is EXPECTED to fart, which begs the questions: "WHY? WHEN? BY WHOM?"

 

[CanadaMan]

Furthermore, your farting analogy - it's too literal and not sufficiently symbolic to be considered an allegory - is logically flawed in its first part. By definition, a non-fart CANNOT be noticed, unless:...

Sandro I just love your sense of humour! 

[Blues Fairy]

- The non-farter is EXPECTED to fart, which begs the questions: "WHY? WHEN? BY WHOM?"

It's safer to assume that everybody farts, but some do it more discreetly than the others.    Therefore, the expectation is that non-event is just a covert-enough event, not a zero degree of the event. 

[apple47]

           So,would a person who doesn't fart in public be considered a private tutor?



                                                        ...Larry

[GQBlues]

           So,would a person who doesn't fart in public be considered a private tutor?

...or one likely who hasn't yet aged to the point of diminished muscular control. I suppose if you must fart in public, you may as well be in a tuxedo.

[ML]

- The non-farter is EXPECTED to fart, which begs the questions: "WHY? WHEN? BY WHOM?"

I think Sherlock Holmes' question to Watson would be very appropriate.
i.e. the absence of dogs barking in the night.

[CanadaMan]

           So,would a person who doesn't fart in public be considered a private tutor

More likely a private tooter!

[mies]

Furthermore, your farting analogy - it's too literal and not sufficiently symbolic to be considered an allegory - is logically flawed in its first part. By definition, a non-fart CANNOT be noticed, unless:

- The observer is a structuralist like Roland Barthes, who might consider this non-event as le degré zéro of farting. 
- The non-farter is EXPECTED to fart, which begs the questions: "WHY? WHEN? BY WHOM?"

 

ok i am convinced now, thank you Sandro 

[I/O]

It's safer to assume that everybody farts, but some do it more discreetly than the others.    Therefore, the expectation is that non-event is just a covert-enough event, not a zero degree of the event. 

The SBD (Silent But Deadly) we employed in the classroom as kids was perhaps an example of passive agression? It was certainly effective, capable of clearing the room in a heartbeat, if any hearts were still beating. Joys, it brings back some terrible memories. ROFL.

[SANDRO43]

Another interesting case of Forum Brownian motion, i.e. how a fart anal-ogy can cause a thread to digress into unexpected areas, flatulence in this specific case .

Flatulence is the expulsion through the rectum of a mixture of gases that are byproducts of the digestion process of mammals and other animals. The mixture of gases is known as flatus, (informally) fart, or simply gas, and is expelled from the rectum in a process colloquially referred to as "passing gas" or "farting". Flatus is brought to the rectum by the same peristaltic process which causes feces to descend from the large intestine. The noises commonly associated with flatulence are caused by the vibration of the anal sphincter, and occasionally by the closed buttocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence
The part in bold emphasises the well-known similarity of farts to raspberries performed by the mouth with its own sphincter - a term applying to any

circular muscle, that normally maintains constriction of a natural body passage or orifice and which relaxes as required by normal physiological functioning. There are over 50 different sphincters in the human body; some of these sphincters are microscopic in size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphincter

The sound varies depending on the tightness of the sphincter muscle and velocity of the gas being propelled, as well as other factors, such as water and body fat. The auditory pitch (sound) of the flatulence outburst can also be affected by the anal embouchure. Among humans, flatulence occasionally happens accidentally, such as incidentally to coughing or sneezing or during orgasm; on other occasions, flatulence can be voluntarily elicited by tensing the rectum or "bearing down" on stomach or bowel muscles and subsequently relaxing the anal sphincter, resulting in the expulsion of a flatus.

Here we have an interesting connection to music, as embouchure is:

the use of facial muscles and the shaping of the lips to the mouthpiece of a wind or brass instrument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure

Which leads us to farting artists like flatulist Le Pétomane (French for fart-maniac, a.k.a. Joseph Pujol, 1857-1945):

Joseph Pujol was born in Marseille. He was one of five children of François (a stonemason and sculptor) and Rose Pujol. Soon after he left school he had a strange experience while swimming in the sea. He put his head under the water and held his breath, whereupon he felt an icy cold penetrating his rear. He ran ashore in fright and was amazed to see water pouring from his anus. A doctor assured him that there was nothing to worry about.When he joined the army he told his fellow soldiers about his special ability, and repeated it for their amusement, sucking up water from a pan into his rectum and then projecting it through his anus up to several yards. He then found that he could suck in air as well. Although a baker by profession, Pujol would entertain his customers by imitating musical instruments, and claim to be playing them behind the counter. Pujol decided to try his talent on the stage, and debuted in Marseille in 1887. After his act proved successful, he proceeded to Paris, where he took the act to the Moulin Rouge in 1892.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Pétomane
The part in bold is well-known among yogis as a self-cleansing exercise .

A 1983 Italian movie, Il Petomane starring Ugo Tognazzi, gives a poetic rendition of the character, contrasting his deep longing for normalcy with the condition of 'freak' to which his act relegated him.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWgBxonEsno[/youtube]

[groovlstk]

Right now, every woman wants to be different from others and to attract peoples' attention. I bet, every woman who goes shopping for clothes, looks for something special and unique, something what other women didn't buy Yet.

 

Reminds me of my wife's experience here in the US as a kitchen and bath designer. When she was working in Moscow, her Russian clients all wanted something unique, something more beautiful and very different from what their neighbors had.

In the US, her American clients (anticipating the resale of their homes) want everything very vanilla and most are afraid to have something very different from their neighbors.

[Lily]

Oh folks, I see you not only illustrated but also scored the sound of farting  it is am obvious  , and should probably be removed from here, but I    about that 

Please stay on topic here, okay? you always can train your farting in another forum threads

[Aloe]

I wear here every day exactly what i wore at home, jeans. Except at home i wore jeans with high heels and tight tops, here i just wear t-shirts usually and more sporty shoes. Cuz vast majority of sidewalks here are cobblestone, so its very very very exhausting to wear high heels, even if you have a car, often you have to park very far away from your destination, cuz of lack of parking in the city. So no heel shoes save your legs 
If invited to a party, then a dress or a skirt. When i do dress up, it's to get attention

[CanadaMan]

... When i do dress up, it's to get attention

 Now we have a full range of answers:

Some dress up for themselves.
Some dress up for the occasion (to blend with the crowd and not stick out).
Some dress up to get attention.

[Seeker]

Now we have a full range of answers:

Some dress up for themselves.
Some dress up for the occasion (to blend with the crowd and not stick out).
Some dress up to get attention.

Damn... it is so confusing.  What is a man to think?   

They are normal people just like us!  AHHH!!!  Now I really am scared!

It just depends on the mood and the personality.  Very few things have simple answers when it comes to people and the differences between them.  That is what I like about people... especially women... You guys are on your own.      

Each of us is an individual just like I (and all of us) are/am.  An eclectic combination of all we think, feel, and believe we know.  Pretty cool, though sometimes it can be a bit annoying.   



 

[spectris]

All successful people "dress up" - it's just a fact.  To be taken seriously in business you have to "dress up" (particularly for a woman).  To be in a successful relationship that involves anything more adventurous than watching TV on the couch requires "dressing up".  "Dressing up" means you put some effort into yourself and often reflects the effort (or lack of) you put into your life.

Of course to "dress up" means different things to different people, the point is making the effort within whatever environment you are in.  Your business colleagues notice, your friends notice, your children notice...   For whatever reason FSU women "dress up" - they are on the right track.

I've travelled all over the world and it's universal that people "dress up" as soon as they economically get past survival.  It's a pride thing.

If you don't already, I would suggest you "dress up" a notch or two and watch how your life is affected.