Mental Health Check-up

[I/O]

David: Prove me wrong.............................

[Daveman]

David: Prove me wrong.............................

Well, that would kinda defeat the purpose because I'm actually in agreement with you.  What is this, that separated by a common language thing again? 

[I/O]

David...............!!!

[mies]

Didn't you know? He has manly man super powers of perception.

 

Mies: Did you ever watch the movie "Pretty Woman"? Remember Julie Roberts response when he presented the strawberries, "forget the seduction scene, I'm a sure thing"?

Unfortunately, whether they admit it or not, way too many men represent the ancient story of the "widows mite" when visiting the FSU areas. They do not invest great amounts of money but in percentage of personal wealth terms, often, I suspect it is huge and as a result of such they need (in their mind) to be certain before they fly out they will get sex value for their investment.

I understand where the concern is coming from, and I agree that some men spend relatively much, and thus would want to have guaranteed return on investment. But it is about same as requesting guaranteed win at gambling from the owner of a casino in Vegas, or requesting guarantees from the stock broker that the stock market will behave in a certain way.
In a way, casinos do show in their ads that people win money and have happy faces and never show gamblers who commit suicide because of  their enormous debts.. so the casinos are showing to fools some gullible ladies and gentlemen what these nice folks want to see. Does it increase the rate of winning on slot machine for each particular individual? Not at all. But then, many people only delude themselves that they go to Vegas for winning, they are spending money on gambling not because they want to win, but because they enjoy the process of chasing the improbable. That's what they are paying for so eagerly.

I do not remember this particular phrase from the "Pretty woman", will watch the movie again

[KevinD]

Thank you Lily and Doll for your advice. It is very nice neither of you see any red flags. That is important to me because you are some of the best posters on this board.

Let me come to BillyB’s defense a bit. I interpreted his remarks a little differently than some. It is important to talk about all the big items that are “deal breakers” – children, religion, temperament, roles in a relationship, work, etc. Originally, I had no intention of talking about sex or intimacy issues. I thought there is no point until a personal meeting. It is very possible that one or the other will decided there is no personal chemistry.

In this case the topic came up in the natural course of conversation. I think the woman was looking for clues if I was a pervert. We discussed intimacy in general terms.

My advice is to listen to the woman and allow her to lead on intimacy issues. From what she tells me, there are many men on these sites who are looking for internet sex or pornography and a lot of sincere women stop looking because of this.  Also listen to her words. At first it was “your apartment” then it was “the apartment” and over time it became “our apartment”. I think a woman will “tell” you her expectations in many different ways. So listen to what she says. But I agree with BillyB. Do not be a cold fish. Let her know how you feel about her. People are not looking for friends or penpals on these sites.

Shadow, I agree with you 100%.  This international dating is a high risk way to date. There are no guarantees. All the letter writing and talking cannot answer the question of personal chemistry. I would think the answer to personal chemistry is answered in a short amount of time. It is either there or not. If not then move to the back-up plan.


I know I scheduled a trip very early on. I know there is a huge risk in meeting someone about a month after writing them. But it felt right. And it still feels right. It may work out or not. But if not, big deal. I will go back to Kiev and just be a tourist for a few days.

This is the fun and easy part of international dating. If there is a connection and possible marriage then the hard work starts – leaving, long term relationship, future meetings, visa process, assimilation process.

Markus – I know I am hanging my emotions out here. One reason is I want to contribute to this board. For the longest time I would just lurk and read while y’all did the heavy lifting. Another reason is guys in the future will read this and it may help them find their partner or maybe help them avoid a mistake. And finally, I am writing this for myself. If it works out then this is a nice diary. If not then maybe I can go back and see what I missed or did wrong.

Kevin

[mies]

Good luck, Kevin!
i also think, like others here, that this woman likes you.

The serious questions that I would try to figure out, but probably I would not ask them directly:
- what kind of job this woman has/does?
- how did she work out the russian registration and job permit?
- where did she go to college? and did she go to college at all?
- what is her profession?

They are important because they will tell much about the life of this woman, her daily reality, and he plans for future too. These two questions are the main reason why I was somewhat reserved in my comments whether the signs are good.

You know that Ukraine and Russia are two different countries. I do not know what is the current and effective legislation, but some years ago a Ukrainian had the options of either working illegally in Russia (and many people still do), or trying to get the work permit (not too easy). Getting registration for living & working in St Petersburg or Moscow also was not easy. Up to the point that people who did not have this registration were refused in job sometimes, even if they were Russian nationals. Forget it if they were foreign citizens. Maybe laws & rules are different now.
Then, St.Petersburg is an expensive city. To rent a place to live - she needs to have quite good salary, otherwise - she must be living in very bad conditions. And finally - the question rises: how did she decide to go to StPetersburg in a first place?

The bottom line - this woman did almost impossible - she came to St Petersburg and managed to stay there, earn enough to be able to rent an apartment, and also she continues living there. This is in a way - very good sign because if she will marry you - she will probably adapt nicely in US too, and will also be hard-working.

Coming to work in St Petersburg legally: for my friends this usually happened when they either went to university there and staid to work. Or they were highly-qualified professionals back in Ukraine, hence they got employed by russian company. I don't know what are the implications of losing job in this case. My intuition would be - they lose legal right to stay in Russia too, or maybe they have some limited period of time to find another job. But I may be totally wrong.

Illegal jobs - may be in a "gray economy" where small and legal businesses have illegal employees. In this case - illegal workers may stay in the country for years, but they are in an unfavorable position when they have no rights, they officially do not exist, are often abused and underpaid by their employers, and either bribe russian police, or are arrested and deported back. The range of these jobs is very wide. But in % - for men the major portion is construction works. (my college friend, a male, worked there as construction worker during summer breaks. He also died there at the age of 21.) For women - housekeeping, escort services, and probably retail as well. Maybe she works illegally as an accountant in small private business, but such scenario isn't very common.

Finally, there is even the third option. Since your woman is originally from the Eastern Ukraine, she might have Russian citizenship. It is not very common, and officially - Ukrainian citizens cannot have dual citizenship, nor two citizenships, but some people manage to get two citizenships and keep it secret from Ukrainian authorities. In Russia - two citizenships are allowed.

Hope this isn't a cold shower. But these questions are indeed important. The questions "what is your religion?" (majority of Ukrainians are Orthodox, many aren't very religious), and "do you like intimacy?" tell you very little about the person. You will get identical answers to these questions from very different people. And will tell you nothing about the habits of the woman, her integrity, her attitudes etc.

P.S. On the topic of discussing intimacy - your woman told you exactly same thing as I was telling in this thread too.  

[Jumper]

listen to her words. At first it was “your apartment” then it was “the apartment” and over time it became “our apartment”. I think a woman will “tell” you her expectations in many different ways. So listen to what she says.

really listening is the main thing in communication,and i'm convinced   you will do just fine.
while communicating with someone in a second language for them ,perhaps you cant get full implications
from single word details ,,
your example is still a very a good one of things you should just naturally notice as sometihng builds between
 the two of you.
Like the old experession -it's often not what is said ,but how it is said as well..

I don't think people should be intently *looking* for such things ,
but they should come naturally and they should notice them ,and a build up of mutual interest in each other.The same with discussing various topics, they should build naturally ,if they are not doing so then the couple is sitting stagnant  , not progressing forward.. each probably knows that.
Few need advise on when to broach various subjects, they should  come up naturally..and fee lnatural for each person at whatever level they want to discuss them..
if they don't somethings already amiss.

I know I scheduled a trip very early on. I know there is a huge risk in meeting someone about a month after writing them.

Honestly, you are speaking hours each day on skype..
 you both WANT to see each other. .
so i just do not see much added risk in  the bigger picture.

as you mentioned and are aware ,you'll either hit it off in person pretty much immediately ,
or you wont , two or three more months of communicating in your scenario , in my opinion wouldn't change that ..

the only time i see such a quick trip having additional risks ,is when a guy falls for a photo,and is chasing a woman who is showing little interest,or  has minimal contact ,or info on the person ,and what they are *like*



2 or 3 hours a day for a few  weeks you should have a pretty good initial feel for what she is really like .
Of course in person it can be different, but you have as solid background to travel ,   as most men have before they go.

I'm the type that if we hit it off, i'll schedule a trip as soon as is reasonable for us both.. be that 4 weeks or 12..
 the best way to know anything is in person.. if youve covered the basics ,been i ncontact often..
and both like each other ,waiting doesnt improve the odds.
 

Mies had some great suggestions on understanding your romantic interest a bit better..


You seem to have a great attitude in this, and that's important.
 Enjoy the experience, hope for the best , plan something around the worst.
Either way enjoy the experience itself, if you keep your expectations level, you'll put less pressure on the situation , and  have a good time no matter what. That's good for both of you

Good luck!

 

[ML]

I would think the answer to personal chemistry is answered in a short amount of time. It is either there or not. If not then move to the back-up plan.

Probably true in general, but always exceptions.

Of the 4 women I went back to Kharkiv to visit a second time, the one I ended up with was the one that initially seemed to have the least chemistry with me of the 4.

I kept dating her on the first visit because she was great to look at, even though I pretty much felt it would go nowhere.

She felt same about lack of chemistry (as she told me later she couldn't feel any 'string' to me) and just kept dating me because it was something unusual to do.

On my first trip, I even told her at one point "this will be our last date."  She asked why.  As we had this discussion we came to feel closer than ever before, and things progressed quickly and positively from that point on.

Go figure.

[I/O]

personal chemistry

Way overrated subject IMO. Always found the people who were most difficult to know turned out to be the deepest in the longer term, wifey included.

I know there is a huge risk in meeting someone about a month after writing them.

What risk? I few coins? Meet, greet, enjoy and then work from there. I think you place both of you under way less pressure doing that (notwithstanding wifely and I wrote each other for more than a year so who am I to advise)?

[BillyB]

Billy, you are rationalizing the things that are so much common sense that some people do not even think about them, while present is as a great wisdom and experience.

Mies, I don't know how beautiful you are so I don't know if you've had lots of men writing you or if you have lots of experience. Even if you have a great personality, some men will think you are beautiful enough to marry and some men think you are beautiful enough to jump in bed with and then say "good bye" because you're not beautiful enough for them to live their life with you.

Some women may write a man and the man bocomes happy and jumping for joy but in reality she likes what he writes and considers him a friend only and will never think about sleeping with him everyday as a life partner. The difficult part for a man is to figure out if she's just friendly or has the hots for him.

You think what I'm saying is common sense yet look around this forum and read. Most will tell others to jump on a plane. For who and for what? We're searching for life partners, not friends and if questions about life within a marriage isn't answered, it should get answered before buying a plane ticket. Some men wonder why their girlfriend or wife doesn't sleep with them so much. I don't want to be one of those men. I'm pretty good at detecting women that have the hots for me. 

After a person communicates with enough people of the opposite sex, they will have a better understanding of what I'm saying. It's not common sense. It's learned through experience. Many ladies I wrote turned out to be friends or disappeared after great communications with them. I have disappeared on many ladies myself.

[KevinD]

Mies --

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I knew about her job and education in the first letter. Is it possible, men do not ask those questions early on? I have even met (on Skype) a classmate of hers. So I know where she went to school and I even know how she got into trouble with one of her professors! I know where she works and I know she makes a decent salary.

She told me she lives and works in Russia legally because she has two valid passports. She says “it is not legal but it is not illegal”. :noidea: She has one passport from Ukraine and one from Russia. She told me (again in agreement with you) that it is legal to have two passports in Russia but she has to keep the Russian passport secret from Ukraine. Her ex-husband was a Russian citizen and she was able to get a passport through him. She tells me most of her classmates live in Moscow now because it is difficult to get good jobs in Ukraine. She moved to St Petersburg because her friend lives there. They share an apartment.

By this time we have talked for about 500 hours. We talk a couple of hours every day and on weekends we spend the whole day together (all on Skype). So my initial worries have been satisfied.

Mies, I am sorry to hear about your friend who died while working in Russia. The number of windows on these sites is shocking to me. Why do so many men die young?

I/O – I have to disagree with you about personal chemistry. For me it is very important. There has to be mutual love and lust. In the past, there have been several women I liked but I had no chemistry and vice versa. They would have made good friends but not lovers or wives.
I believe that only a personal meeting can answer the questions of chemistry, compatibility and intimacy.

Thanks for all the advice and support.

Kevin

[I/O]

I/O – I have to disagree with you about personal chemistry.

Sure, you're welcome to disagree, you wouldn't be the first.

[mies]

She told me she lives and works in Russia legally because she has two valid passports. She says “it is not legal but it is not illegal”. :noidea:

Ok. So she has two citizenships: Russian and Ukrainian. Russia allows to have multiple citizenships, so Russians do not care that she kept her Ukrainian citizenship too. Ukraine does not allow to have multiple citizenships - it is stated in our Constitution that the moment when a Ukrainian citizen obtains any other citizenship - he loses his Ukrainian citizenship. So she kept her Russian citizenship in secret from the Ukrainian authorities. As long as they don't know about it - she is fine. If they will find out - they will request her to give away her Ukrainian passport and citizenship.
This is why she said it is not legal (from Ukrainian point of view), and not illegal (from Russian point of view). There are some imperfections in Ukrainian laws, and this is one of the examples. The Ukrainian Constitution does not allow multiple citizenships, but there is no supportive legislation to enforce it (for example other countries do not notify Ukraine when a ukrainian citizen was granted another citizenship too).

While in Russia - she is a Russian citizen, and can have any job she likes.
Was her ex-husband from StPetersburg? Does she own property there?

[mies]

Mies, I don't know how beautiful you are so I don't know if you've had lots of men writing you or if you have lots of experience. Even if you have a great personality, some men will think you are beautiful enough to marry and some men think you are beautiful enough to jump in bed with and then say "good bye" because you're not beautiful enough for them to live their life with you.

Billy, I do not understand why you are putting this text here. My gut senses an emotional attack, like you are punching in a dark, trying to hit my soft spot, but since you don't know me, you don't really know where that soft spot may be.
Do you really think that relationship experience should be measured in how many men are writing to a woman?
Lots of experience in what? In men (or women) jumping in bed and then saying "good bye"? In marrying different men? In divorcing the "wrong person" and re-marrying again "the right person"?
Should we focus on the "experience" (e.g. learning from mistakes) or achieving the desired result? There is a saying in Russian "...but we are not looking for easy ways.."

Your posts give me a strange feeling as if you are living in the world where women are trying to marry men and avoid sex because naturally women aren't interested in sex, while men are trying to get guaranteed sex. So men and women are trying to optimize within these two constraints and get some sort of a deal.

And on a side note: some men may be suitable for short-time romance, but total misfits for long-term family life. Some may only jump between beds and never marry, other may marry, remarry, and remarry and make their long-term partners feel miserable. The beauty of women in this case is quite irrelevant. It is also not in women's interest to be marrying these men. Do you really believe that a woman will want to marry ANY man?
Russian joke:
"- Это Неуловимый Джо.
- А почему он Неуловимый?
- Да кому он нафиг нужен?"