Twaddle & Tosh

[Brasscasing]

Brass - seems like you're trying - and failing - as usual - to imagine my life ...  back to reality....   Just to be clear  - The whole basis of my knowledge involves having BEEN to Israel ...

Well, we know you've had your pic taken outside an Airport in Israel. However, this current story about you visiting friends is a lot more believable than last year's concoction. 

As you correctly point out ..Papakota said Arabs DON'T - not can't serve.. However - in your attempt to 'help out' - you neglected to quote from Papakota's first pronouncement in this thread  - which caused me to - once again - question the veracity of his knowledge - viz there being only two communities in Israel and by inference - only Jews ( and Christians) serving

[My bolded] Is all you needed to acknowledge. I'm well aware of the gist of Papa's original comment and it has nothing to do with your attempt to alter it which is what I was pointing out.

How is your shaving mirror, today ?

Just fine, thank you. I might just dig up and attach a pic or two of my own tour of duty if "knowledge involves having BEEN to Israel" is the bar by which we're measuring our expertise of all things Israel...Papa's got us all beat in that department, though.

Thing of it is. This entire discussion you (and others) have been trying to make your points flipping back and forth between or melding the Law of Return (state legislation) and Halakha (Jewish religious laws)...two different animals.

Now, I'm not a Rabbi but as far as I can tell, the only participant in this discussion who's been consistently accurate (as far as Israel military service goes) in what he's been conveying is Papa.

So, you (and others) had better be checking your own shaving mirrors because based on some of your missives in this thread you're not even in the right washroom. 

Brass

[Boethius]

I'll help you out there...

  Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 
^{Matt 6 ..
5} These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
⁶ But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
⁷ And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Point being that salvation was with the Jews but the Jewish people were only three tribes of the twelve of Israel. The Jews in whole rejected their own messiah. The other tribes were lost in history centuries earlier.

The object is find them and and bring salvation to them.

Who are these people? They're everywhere. Could be you could be me.

None of which contradicts my point.

There was no Christian Church in existence during Christ's lifetime. 

Christ did not tell the apostles to start a church in His name.  Everything Christ taught came from the Talmud. 

[Boethius]

Now, I'm not a Rabbi but as far as I can tell, the only participant in this discussion who's been consistently accurate (as far as Israel military service goes) in what he's been conveying is Papa.

Really?

If you're an Israeli citizen who is ultra-Orthodox, Muslim or Christian, you're exempt from sharing the burden of the country's defense with your fellow citizens who are Jewish or Druze. There is no discrimination here - these religious communities are equal when it comes to not defending the country.

http://www.haaretz.com/muslims-and-christians-must-also-serve-in-idf-1.415273

Israeli law does not require minorities in the Jewish State to serve in the IDF, so all of the Arab Christians recruits are choosing to volunteer. A notable exception has always been the Israeli Druze community, which is proudly Zionist and has served in the IDF since the state’s creation in 1948. Now, Father Naddaf hopes that some of the 165,000 Arab Christians in Israel will follow in the Druze’s footsteps.

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/56889/in-heartwarming-christmas-story-idf-welcomes-more-pro-israel-christian-arabs-biblical-zionism/#9ablBZuxxdC5IaqK.99

According to the IDF, about 2,000 Christians reach the age of conscription each year. Despite the government's promotion of enlistment, only about 150 Christians are reported to be serving.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/christians-object-serving-israel-army-201464104941847997.html

Israel's Arab and Aramean Christian population has long been an untapped resource in recruitment for the IDF, largely because of threats and incitement against young Christians thinking to join the army, but that appears to be changing as an unprecedented number of over 200 Christians are predicted to enlist next year. . .
One of the key Christian leaders behind the increase in enlistment is Greek Orthodox priest Father Gabriel Nadaf, a native of Nazareth who heads the Greek Orthodox Church in Yafia near his hometown.


Nadaf has advocated a strong connection to Israel and IDF service for Christian citizens - despite stiff opposition from the official Greek Orthodox church and Arab MKs.


The condemnation against Nadaf has gone as far as the Greek Orthodox patriarchate in Israel banning him from entering Nazareth's Basilica of the Annunciation, and repeatedly threatening to dismiss him from his Yafia post.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/199056

[Brasscasing]

Really?



http://www.haaretz.com/muslims-and-christians-must-also-serve-in-idf-1.415273



http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/56889/in-heartwarming-christmas-story-idf-welcomes-more-pro-israel-christian-arabs-biblical-zionism/#9ablBZuxxdC5IaqK.99

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/christians-object-serving-israel-army-201464104941847997.html

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/199056

You're going to have to be a bit more specific than quoting me a group of news articles, Bo.

None of which (what you've quoted), as far as I can ascertain, contradict anything Papa has posted.

What point are you conveying here?

Brass

[Brasscasing]

None of which contradicts my point.

There was no Christian Church in existence during Christ's lifetime. 

Christ did not tell the apostles to start a church in His name.  Everything Christ taught came from the Talmud.

Oh, Bo...I'm the most inattentive church goer you'll come across but even I know that's not accurate...

Matthew 16:18

..." And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."...

THE PRIMACY OF PETER

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/peter.htm

Brass

[SANDRO43]

Brass, you are quoting an English translation (the Authorized Version or the King James Bible, 1611) of a Latin translation (Vulgata, circa 380 A.D. by Sofronius Eusebius Hieronymus, later St. Jerome) of a text originally in Greek.

I would not be too sure that the words you quote - Church in particular, from Greek έκκλησία - correspond to what Jesus is supposed to have said in Hebrew . The closest Hebrew word is qahal in Devārīm (Deuteronomy), meaning assembly:

Specially the day that thou stoodest before YHVH thy ’Elohiym in Horeb, when YHVH said unto me, assemble [qahal] the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

[papakota]

Kahal in modern Hebrew means "public". Like in a word "Da'at Ha-Kahal" which means "Public opinion".  דעת הקהל

[SANDRO43]

Kahal in modern Hebrew means "public". Like in a word "Da'at Ha-Kahal" which means "Public opinion".  דעת הקהל

I suppose you know that "modern Hebrew" was re-invented rather recently, using old scriptural terms and making them fit the need somehow.

IIRC, the first Hebrew word for automobile was something that translated into fire chariots .

[papakota]

I suppose you know that "modern Hebrew" was re-invented rather recently, using old scriptural terms and making them fit the need somehow.

IIRC, the first Hebrew word for automobile was something that translated into fire chariots .

I only know modern words. For "automobile" that would be "rehev", "mehonit" or simply "oto". In Russian, it's much better though. We just use foreign words. Like "airport" in Russian is the same "aeroport", but in Hebrew it's "Namal Ha-Teufah" which means "Flight port" as in Namal Ha-Teufah Ben Gurion (Natba''g is a Hebrew abbreviation).

[SANDRO43]

In Russian, it's much better though. We just use foreign words. Like "airport" in Russian is the same "aeroport"

...and station is voksal, from :

London's Vauxhall railway station

[Brasscasing]

Brass, you are quoting an English translation (the Authorized Version or the King James Bible, 1611) of a Latin translation (Vulgata, circa 380 A.D. by Sofronius Eusebius Hieronymus, later St. Jerome) of a text originally in Greek.

I would not be too sure that the words you quote - Church in particular, from Greek έκκλησία - correspond to what Jesus is supposed to have said in Hebrew . The closest Hebrew word is qahal in Devārīm (Deuteronomy), meaning assembly:

Yes, I'm aware of the Latin transliteration from the original texts, Sandro. And as a layman I would agree  the literal meaning of the word qahal means assembly.

In fact, I would stipulate your interpretation of the meaning to theological history is correct as well. The church visible, the church invisible are assemblies or groups of followers as well and multiple congregations can belong to one assembly (or church).

But historically would you not agree that when Jesus stated  ..."And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."...He was referring to just that - an assembly or in modern language congregation or church?

Even if we are to substitute  "upon this rock I will build my church" with "upon this rock I will build my assembly" it doesn't alter the meaning of the statement in that we could substitute "assembly" for 'following" or "church" for 'congregation" and still understand he was instructing Peter to build his kingdom on earth and spread the word.

My point being (according to scripture) Jesus did instruct Peter (the 'rock' being Peter) to create a church (or assembly) with the apostles as the foundation (teachers) and Jesus as the Head (spiritual leader, deity, Lord, master, savior, anointed one, etc.)

Bo states "Christ did not tell the apostles to start a church in His name'. Matthew 16:18, 19 according to scripture says otherwise. He did according to scripture instruct Peter to build a "church" in his name within religious context and definition.

A rose by any other name is still a rose even if you translate it from the latin 'alio nomine est rosa flos', I would think.

Brass

[BillyB]

Brass, you are quoting an English translation (the Authorized Version or the King James Bible, 1611) of a Latin translation (Vulgata, circa 380 A.D. by Sofronius Eusebius Hieronymus, later St. Jerome) of a text originally in Greek.

I would not be too sure that the words you quote - Church in particular, from Greek έκκλησία - correspond to what Jesus is supposed to have said in Hebrew . The closest Hebrew word is qahal in Devārīm (Deuteronomy), meaning assembly:

I don't think the English word "church" existed when the Bible was written. The word "church" did exist for the King James translation version. Assembly translates to church.

church definition

A group of Christians; church is a biblical word for “assembly.” It can mean any of the following: (1) All Christians, living and dead. ( See  saints.) (2) All Christians living in the world. (3) One of the large divisions or denominations of Christianity, such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, Methodist Church, or Roman Catholic Church. (4) An individual congregation of Christians meeting in one building; also the building itself.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/church

[SANDRO43]

But historically would you not agree that when Jesus stated  ..."And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."...He was referring to just that - an assembly or in modern language congregation or church?

I cannot, from a linguistic point of view.

The historical accuracy of sacred texts is all too often questionable when oral tradition is eventually put in writing, in this case some 40+ years after the events and passed through 3 different languages belonging to a different family (Indo-European rather than Semitic) - witness the various Apostolic Councils debating ferociously upon their interpretation and at times leading to schisms .

[Brasscasing]

I cannot, from a linguistic point of view.

The historical accuracy of sacred texts is all too often questionable when oral tradition is eventually put in writing, in this case some 40+ years after the events and passed through 3 different languages belonging to a different family (Indo-European rather than Semitic) - witness the various Apostolic Councils debating ferociously upon their interpretation and at times leading to schisms .

Ah, well there's the rub isn't it...

I'm of the opinion there is sufficient archeological evidence to conclude that further investigation is warranted into establishing the veracity of the original claim that the family tomb of Jesus of Nazareth may have been unearthed.... But I don't say it too loud or too often for fear of being burned at the stake!

New Controversy Surrounds Alleged 'Jesus Family Tomb'

http://www.livescience.com/50434-jesus-family-tomb-geology.html

Brass

 

[SANDRO43]

I don't think the English word "church" existed when the Bible was written.

Of course not, as I wrote it's from Greek εκκλησία which became ecclesia in Latin, chiesa in Italian, église in French, iglesia in Spanish, Kirche in German, church in English, etc. etc.

church definition
A group of Christians; church is a biblical word for “assembly.”

A convenient but clumsy adaptation , it should have read: “assembly” is a biblical word for church." to make the desired, forced sense.