scam agency or just dishonest practice

[Admin]

We need to look back to the "test profile" I submitted. It did not include anything but a name and age. If a lady is searching for a men. I would expect she would not write a personal letter to just a name and age only. She would want to know more. I didn't profile anything.  No grounds for a lady to respond.  In the second agency I tested I did include a cartoon photo and wording not to write me with enough details that if the profile was read the lady wouldn't write.

I see no reason for a lady to write to any of my test profiles. I do not believe the lady is writing me. If I read the letter they are generic. One of my test profile has the name. "NO Spam" and I got some letters address "No Spam I think we are compatible. " .  It was clearly a software written letter.

This thread is to decide if agencies who use software to send out letter to clients based on gender only. Should they be consider a scam if the men is require to pay to read the letter or is the agency just dis-honest by sending out (first letters) to men based on the criteria that the lady agreed on. (Male).

Lets keep it focus on this topic. People who subject full profile and get letters based on their profile, could be getting real letters.  Test profiles should get no letters if in fact the lady are seeing the profiles.

kevin

>>We need to look back to the "test profile" I submitted.<<

No Kevin - the "test profile" you submitted was BOGUS. You submitted a fraudulent profile. Why should an agency make ANY provision for such fraudulent behavior?

>>If a lady is searching for a men. I would expect she would not write a personal letter to just a name and age only<<

Embedded in your assertion is a FLAWED fundamental presumption. You presume that the ONLY time a contact should be made is when the lady personally initiates it. I know, for a FACT, that some ladies WANT the agency to initiate contacts ON THEIR BEHALF. In fact, you admit doing the same at Khersongirls each time you send a newsletter or even publish your website containing those profiles. Please note: I did NOT accuse you of sending fabricated letters. I am drawing a clear distinction between the distribution and advertising of the female "customers" as DIFFERENT than a false claim that the lady wrote a letter which was actually fabricated by an automated agency script - an accusation, I should add, that is not yet PROVEN, though it is likely.

BTW - have you read the Terms of Service at that agency site you are using? Care to publish those here? It would be interesting to see what their legal obligations and duties are - and what 'protections' they may have built into their processes.

I repeat - there is, as yet, no clear scam - merely the suggestion and possibility of one.

* What is the DUTY an agency owes the ladies they represent? I have heard from at least a few women that they felt the agency was NOT active enough in promoting their profile.

^^ An agency should promote the lady by listing them on the site. Sending out newsletters that include the ladies profile. Recommending ladies to certain men. matchmaking and letter services.

--- An agency should not write letters to men from ladies. An agency should not send letter to men without the ladies knowledge. The agency should require the ladies to look at the men profile.

?? Exception would be matchmaking service. Whereas the agency will send out the profile of a lady to a certain group of men. However it should be clearly noted that the letters where sent to introduce the lady (intro letter) and does not guarantee a interest by the ladies, but should be used for consideration.  It should be a paid matchmaking service and not hidden as a private letter from the lady.


* Our site has a large proportion of men, so it is not surprising that most of the perspectives expressed here would be from the man's perspective. HOWEVER - what if you were a RW and were seeking an agency to list your profile. What would you desire the agency to do FOR YOU?

If the RW expect an agency to provide services for her. She should have the same rights as the Men do and be expected to pay for such services. If the RW isn't paying for such service and the Men are. The rights of service belong to the paying customer.

The RW should have a guarantee that her contact information would not be given to a stranger without her concent. The RW should have the right to refuse a meeting or letters/gifts ect from Men that do not meet her age requirement.  Once the meeting occurs the RW should have the same rights and the Client.

kevin

>>If the RW expect an agency to provide services for her. She should have the same rights as the Men do and be expected to pay for such services. If the RW isn't paying for such service and the Men are. The rights of service belong to the paying customer. <<

I could not disagree more. In fact, the Agency Code of Ethics describes it thusly:

"The Agency Code of Ethics (hereinafter ACoE) represents the views of International Relations (owners of CertifiedMarriageAgencies.org, hereinafter IR), on the standards that should govern the conduct of private organizations (hereinafter Agency/Agencies) having male and female clients (hereinafter Agency Clients) who seek serious relationships, and offering to them mutual information, assistance and services (hereinafter Agency Services) to facilitate their encounters and establishing such relationships, regardless of whether such Agency Services are rendered for free or for a fee." [Emphasis added]

Your position is explicitly UNETHICAL, in that it disregards the natural rights of those who are not paying, and assigning rights to only those who pay. The simple exchange of monetary interest has nothing to do with ethical behavior - and speaks to a warped sense of right and wrong.

Moreover, I would also add that your position is probably NOT in the best interests of your agency business. You would know better than I - however, there have been topics here in the past that asked what the most valuable aspect of an agency is to a male customer - and consensus (IIRC) was that the guys wanted a large number of sincere women.

The 'better' agencies are those who recognize the rights and interests of ALL constituents, and seek to meet those needs. If they are sensitive to the needs/desires of the women, they will attract more women. If they are sensitive to the needs/desires of the men, they will attract more men. The equation is incredibly simple - and it really is taught in Business 101.

It is my understanding that the agents do see new profiles.  So I do expect the agents to be loading letters. But this can only be done with the agencies knowledge. Since when I complained in the past the agent was not removed.

Part 2.
Should a false profile be used to test agencies.   Some say that by using a test profile you can not verify a scam or not scam practice.  It is my opinion that a test profile shows without a daught if the lady is reading the profile.  The other side is the argument that a lady can write a men without knowledge of the men except for age.

The only defence for writing a false profile is the lady is only interested in age and country. Since no other information was given during my first test.

Does anyone reading this thread agree that a lady should be allowed and is justified on sending a letter to men based only on Age, Name or Country?

Do any of you men send letters to ladies without looking at her profile photo's?

.. Is it a scamming practice to send letters to men based on age only? ...
.. Should an agency used software to send out "first letters" to Men who meet the ladies age requirements?

Note: It would be very easy for me to write software to send out a generic letter from all ladies to men who meet a ladies age requirement. however I fell personally that is would generate a lot of money, but not marriages. Therefore I wouldn't do it.
Kevin

Your post consists of two parts:

1. Using false profiles to 'test' agencies. I do not believe an agency has a duty to plan for such a ruse - nor do I think it would make sense for an agency to spend its resources worrying about such fraudulent behavior. Those who are insincere, deserve nothing in return. If they receive garbage - so be it.

Further, nearly your entire position has revolved around the fact that an agency will 'greet' a new male customer - no matter WHAT is in their profile - with offers of meetings with a large number of ladies. That, in itself, is no different than any other form of advertising - including the mere publication of a website containing profiles.

2. "Do any of you men send letters to ladies without looking at her profile photo's?" - Maybe they would if it were an option. Many men contribute their profile to various sites - and I would wager that they WANT that agency/site to publicise their profile to women, sight unseen.

- Dan

[Kevin]

""Embedded in your assertion is a FLAWED fundamental presumption. You presume that the ONLY time a contact should be made is when the lady personally initiates it. I know, for a FACT, that some ladies WANT the agency to initiate contacts ON THEIR BEHALF. In fact, you admit doing the same at Khersongirls each time you send a newsletter or even publish your website containing those profiles. Please note: I did NOT accuse you of sending fabricated letters. I am drawing a clear distinction between the distribution and advertising of the female "customers" as DIFFERENT than a false claim that the lady wrote a letter which was actually fabricated by an automated agency script - an accusation, I should add, that is not yet PROVEN, though it is likely.""

Dan. I am referring to notice of Letters from Ladies. Not newsletters introducing new ladies or emails showing ladies profiles.

FACT. I DO NOT send out letters from ladies ON THEIR BEHALF.  Only the ladies can send out letters to the men and the originals are on file..
I sent out a newsletter once a week that show the new Ladies who have joined the agency. It is a newsletter.  It DOES NOT include letters to the men. It is simple the ladies profile which the men can see for free. No money is required or requested to read the ladies profile.

It is the scam agencies that send out Letters to the members.  The key word is LETTERS not Profiles.  We need to stay on topic of letters. We are not talking about an agency promoting their ladies by sending out a notice to all members. I am referring to a private emails informing me I have 27 letters now from "hot" ladies who are looking for a male.  No other information was given on my profiles.


AT NO TIME WOULD I ALLOW A LETTER TO BE SENT OUT TO A CLIENT WITHOUT THE LADY BEING DIRRECTLY INVOLVED. AT NO TIME WILL I SENT OUT A NEWLETTER NOT ALL MEMBERS THAT INCLUDE THE SAME LETTER TO EVERY MEMBER .

There is a big difference between an agency sending out a intro letter to Men meeting a lady criteria. But I have not seen any criteria from the agencies tested that other then the fact I said Male on my profile.

[Admin]

""Embedded in your assertion is a FLAWED fundamental presumption. You presume that the ONLY time a contact should be made is when the lady personally initiates it. I know, for a FACT, that some ladies WANT the agency to initiate contacts ON THEIR BEHALF. In fact, you admit doing the same at Khersongirls each time you send a newsletter or even publish your website containing those profiles. Please note: I did NOT accuse you of sending fabricated letters. I am drawing a clear distinction between the distribution and advertising of the female "customers" as DIFFERENT than a false claim that the lady wrote a letter which was actually fabricated by an automated agency script - an accusation, I should add, that is not yet PROVEN, though it is likely.""

Dan. I am referring to notice of Letters from Ladies. Not newsletters introducing new ladies or emails showing ladies profiles.

FACT. I DO NOT send out letters from ladies ON THEIR BEHALF.  Only the ladies can send out letters to the men and the originals are on file..
I sent out a newsletter once a week that show the new Ladies who have joined the agency. It is a newsletter.  It DOES NOT include letters to the men. It is simple the ladies profile which the men can see for free. No money is required or requested to read the ladies profile.

It is the scam agencies that send out Letters to the members.  The key word is LETTERS not Profiles.  We need to stay on topic of letters. We are not talking about an agency promoting their ladies by sending out a notice to all members. I am referring to a private emails informing me I have 27 letters now from "hot" ladies who are looking for a male.  No other information was given on my profiles.


AT NO TIME WOULD I ALLOW A LETTER TO BE SENT OUT TO A CLIENT WITHOUT THE LADY BEING DIRRECTLY INVOLVED. AT NO TIME WILL I SENT OUT A NEWLETTER NOT ALL MEMBERS THAT INCLUDE THE SAME LETTER TO EVERY MEMBER .

There is a big difference between an agency sending out a intro letter to Men meeting a lady criteria. But I have not seen any criteria from the agencies tested that other then the fact I said Male on my profile.

Kevin,

OK - so let's explore the subject of "Letters".

As I understand it - those "letters" are exchanged within the confines of the agency website. Is that true?

Are the girls whose profiles/letters are sent, sincerely interested in finding a partner?

If a guy reads that letter and responds to that lady, is there certainty that the lady will NOT reply back?

Don't misunderstand - I clearly see how a person would feel this is a 'shady' practice, at least - but if, as Gator suggests, the women are real and sincere and they have the freedom to reply if they desire - then the cost of reading that opening letter is trivial. Yes, it is deceptive for an agency to suggest or state that the lady themselves sent the email, if it is not true. HOWEVER - and this is an important point - I would imagine that most guys are not so naive as to believe a bunch of letters that suddenly appear out of nowhere are coming from young models genuinely interested in them. The more rational response would be to recognize it as an advertisement, and NOT click on them. Instead, review the profiles at your leisure and contact those which interest you.

Would this NOT eliminate the "scam" altogether?

- Dan

[Sculpto]

This is an interesting topic and having tried and failed with a variety of agency sites, including Kevin's, I think I may have some valuable insite, especially for beginners.  Sorry in advance for the long post.

First of all... any site that requires payment to open an intro letter should be avoided like the plague.  Even if the girl actually reads a guys profile and wrote a personal intro letter it is almost certain that as a relationship prgresses the agency will eventually try to interfere, especially if the girl is popular and generating a lot of revenue. 

Any affiliate agency that publishes their girls on many different sites, whether they send letters or not, should absolutely be avoided.  The chances that the lady is reading all or any of the letters her profile generates is slim to none.  It is not difficult to research if a particular lady is posted on many sites.. just have to put in the time to find her. 

Frankly girls that send intro letters that are not personally written to each individual man they are sent to should probably be avoided.  Not to knock Kevin, but, I had this experience on his site where I recieved an intro letter from a lady but after reviewing HER profile I determined I did not meet HER criteria for age, height and weight or interests.  I asked Kevin to investigate and was told the lady was in fact interested, so, I responded.  The second letter from the lady did not respond to any of my questions and was clearly a form letter.  I did not write to her again.  Months later I found the same lady on a different site through a different agency in Kherson and recieved a new form intro letter from her.  I thought, WTF is up with her????

Some sites have the facility for the user to check and see who has viewed his profile.  The ONLY agency site I still use has this tool.  I get  alot of intro letters on this particular site which has a policy that allows agencies to send intro letters for the ladies.  However, if I do not see that my profile was viewed I do not read the letter, even though it is free to read the first letter.  In these situations it is obvious to me that the agency is trying to generate revenue and the chances I will be corresponding with a greedy agency manager or terp is too high to take the chance.

Since I stopped using agency sites and have pursued contacts via other methods there have been a number of very interesting differences in the quality of the communications.  I will like to mention the main differences.  First and foremost the ladies who are not really interested make it clear very quickly.  There is no drawn out letter writing with silly questions.  They either like me or not.  That is a big help.  Then, even more interestingly.. the ladies who are interested are far more open and engaging.  They ask a lot more direct and specific questions and are far more open and revealing in answering my own questions.  I have determined that agency girls are being coached and even pushed to write when they are not interested to keep the revenue flowing.  The BEST example of this type of unethical agency beahvior has to be Aweb where the ladies are required by their membership contract to answer EVERY letter they get.  It is just not possible for a popular lady to answer all those letters without help.  Help in the guise of agency managers and terps.. ultimately the lady has no idea who "she" is writing to and whena guy shows up "she" may know little or nothing about him.  It is a BIG shock for the man when that happens.

I will also like to say I believe the less ethical agencies are invloved in manipulating and taking advantage of EVERYONE.  They send fake letters for ladies who are no longer interested or have local boyfriends purely to generate money, sometimes the girls can not get their profiles removed no matter how hard they try.  I know one lady in Odessa who has a profile on a major site with a bad reputation.  I had recieved a generic intro letter from this woman.  Later on I found her on a free site and we have since truck up a nice friendship and chat frequently on Yahoo.  She has been trying for a year to have her profile removed from the agency site but nothing happens. 

BTW.. the line that many agencies use that the ladies do not have access to computers and the internet is rapidly becoming less and less true.  Personally I believe the agencies are peddling mostly the bottom dwellers at this point.  Once I broke free of my "addiction" to agency girls I have found many women with great careers and reasonable financial means sufficient to get themselves on the internet, many of whom have been to the USA or Europe on their own and have the visa stamp in their passport or meet the requirements to get one.

Marriage agencies are dinosours.  The sooner they cease to exist the better for everyone because in their desire to make easy money they have succeeded in alienating a lot of men and women to the entire idea of international marriages.  By creating "beauty standards" for the girls yet with no standards for the men, by accepting money from men when they know good and well the man will not succeed with his chosen girls, by sending fake letters and interfering in relationships, by paying girls to join and keeping them interested with beauty shows, contests and giveaways and payoffs on gift and letter revenue, and by using bait and switch tactics to generate more revenue with men who have crossed the ocean these agencies discredit the entire concept. 

Finally, I challenge the agency owners on the forum to tell us all.. WHAT QUALIFIES YOU TO BE A MATCHMAKER?  (send that question to another topic if you want)

[Shadow]

It is my understanding that the agents do see new profiles.  So I do expect the agents to be loading letters. But this can only be done with the agencies knowledge. Since when I complained in the past the agent was not removed.

So it is your opinion too that not the internet agency is doing this, but the local agents.
If you complained while setting up a fake profile and not checking if the women actually existed, I am not surprised the agent was not removed. Would you removed one of your female clients if somebody wrote that he suspected her not to be sincere ? The answer has already been given in other threads and is no.

 

Part 2.
Should a false profile be used to test agencies.   Some say that by using a test profile you can not verify a scam or not scam practice.  It is my opinion that a test profile shows without a daught if the lady is reading the profile.  The other side is the argument that a lady can write a men without knowledge of the men except for age.

The only defence for writing a false profile is the lady is only interested in age and country. Since no other information was given during my first test.

Does anyone reading this thread agree that a lady should be allowed and is justified on sending a letter to men based only on Age, Name or Country?

The subagent uses a script to promote their ladies. If they have no other tools available (besides that those tools will cost them money) but sending out interest letters, it can be argued that they are doing their best to attract attention on behalf of the  ladies.

Do any of you men send letters to ladies without looking at her profile photo's?

.. Is it a scamming practice to send letters to men based on age only? ...
.. Should an agency used software to send out "first letters" to Men who meet the ladies age requirements?

Note: It would be very easy for me to write software to send out a generic letter from all ladies to men who meet a ladies age requirement. however I fell personally that is would generate a lot of money, but not marriages. Therefore I wouldn't do it.
Kevin

Lets ask the following question: Do you men reply to incoming letters without first checking the lady's profile ?

Scamming involves not just a deception, but a monetary transaction based on this deception with no other motive than the monetary transaction.  So far sending out letters on behalf of a real and sincere woman has other motives as the monetary transaction alone.

I would not advise you to throw away your good name by following the practices of agencies who use this kind of behavior.
In fact it has been discussed a lot that it is one of the red flags regarding an agency. However red flags do not always mean scam.

[Kevin]

Dan
The email notifies you that you have letters and show the ladies picture. You then click on the "read Letter" link on the email and it brings up the site and ask you to pay to read the letter.

As I research each agency and speak to the agents involved with some of these agencies. Keeping in Mind that often you can find a honest agent in a dishonest network.

I'm down to two factors, both involved money.
1. The agents know that the more letters they send the more money they make. Therefore their is a financial motivation to send out letter to membership even if the lady isn't aware of it, part of a agent matchmaking service or looking for any man.

2. The second factor is software programing that will spam the client with "intro letters" from ladies who are popular in the hopes you will pay to read them for money.

It is the Money factor of "intro/first Letters" that is very dishonest if the lady isn't the one sending the letter.  In my opinion a intro letter from a lady that is sent by someone other then the lady should be free to read.  The only time money should be charge is when the lady and men are directly involved in the letter.

I'm testing about 7 agencies know who use the pay to read Intro/first letters.  It looks like a money machine to me.

Note: KG does not charge to read any letter from the ladies. The agents are not paid to send letters or translation. The money factor was removed from my network to avoid this type of situation.

[SANDRO43]

Since I stopped using agency sites and have pursued contacts via other methods...

Excellent summation Sculpto, care to share more about your 'other methods' ?

[Sculpto]

Sandro..

In a PM I would be happy to tell you what I am doing.  I am not comfortable publishing my method in public simply because I would rather the so called "nutjobs" do not have access to my method.

E

[SANDRO43]

Sandro..In a PM I would be happy to tell you what I am doing.  I am not comfortable publishing my method in public simply because I would rather the so called "nutjobs" do not have access to my method.

OK Sculpto, a PM will do just fine, although my guess is: free sites, chat groups and possibly FSU sites/newspaper ads - no great mystery. You need not reply here if you feel uncomfortable, though I'd venture there are not too many "nutjobs" at RWD, except for transients that leave rather quickly .

[Sculpto]

Sandro... I tried to send you a PM but for some reason the system would not let me..

You have the basic idea but digging deeper there are many other resources out there that do not cost money.. do not involve agencies or scammers and have little or no competition from other western men.  Being able to work with the Russian language is key.

Now, so as not to hijack Kevin's thread.. my message to Kevin is this.. not that I expect you to listen... but I will give you the ideas anyway..

If you want to send uncolicited intro letters to men on your site.. give the men the chance to decide if they want to recieve them or not.  A simple check box asking if a member would like to recieve unsolicited intro letters from ladies that may not have seen his profile, yes or no, would do the trick.  Also, adding the ability for the men to see if a lady has viewed his profile would be very usefull.  And finally and most importantly.. do not treat the ladies as a commodity.  It is this last comment that made me remove my profile from your site (well aside from the fact that you banned me from your yahoo group) and the others.  These ladies are not a product to be bought and sold and agencies and sites that treat them as such while perhaps not scamming are certainly disgusting and only add to the negative perceptions many of us are trying to fight off when we discuss our activites with friends and family. 

When the ladies are subject to undue influence from terps and agency managers and become part of the "letter writing sweatshops" they stop being attractive or even reasonable potential mates.  It has become clear to me, and I am sure many others, some of the ladies become internet and attention addicted.  In quite a number of now ended correspondences when the ladies resisted direct contact because they were advised not to do it, or even worse were contractually obligated not to, it became crystal clear to me there would be agency interference in one form or another no matter what the outcome of the relationship.  I even made the comment several times to ladies under the influence of agencies "do you plan on taking your terp to bed with us also?"  Of course none of them thought that was funny, but, by the point at which such a comment was made by me I already knew there was no hope for a future with such a woman and I wanted to make it clear to her that I considered her actions unacceptable and on the border of scamming.  Hopefully some of them actually have a conscience and learned something.

Since I am on a rant/roll I might as well throw in a few more things..

At this stage of internet development there is no reason a site cannot provide free or low cost video chat for the purpose of verification and to facilitate communications.  Googletalk now provides real time translation in chat messenger windows.  This technology will be widespread shortly thus minimizing if not totally eliminating the need for terps.  Charging $1 a minute for video chat is absolutely ridiculous.  If UkraineDate by CupidMedia can provide no additional cost chat for a $40 a month membership with unlimited letter writing why the heck do so called marriage agencies and sites charge so much more and provide even less service?

Any site that does not let the male members communicate with each other through a forum of some sort is not to be trusted.

Any site that censors any message, with the exclusion of personal contact info as exactly outlined by IMBRA, should not be trusted.

Girls or men that have photos posted that do not represent how the person currently looks should be forced to update their photos or removed from a site.

Any site that allows agencies or bots to send intro letters must provide some form of verification of interest, probably a live video chat that is not supervised by a terp or manager.

ISP's that facilitate known scamming sites should be brought to the attention of the FBI if they are based in the USA.  If they are not based in the USA they must not use IMBRA as an excuse to overcharge and overcontrol the ladies and the contact info.

Agency and site owners that spend their time trying to prove how corrupt and scamming other sites and agencies are, should instead focus their attention on improving their own services and genuinely helping people come together.  Instead of investing time and money in ridiculous advertising campaigns how about hiring a staff psychologist to determine if both male and female members are suitable candidates for international marriage and rejecting the memberships of those who are not serious or not well adjusted enough to handle the special stresses associated with an international marriage.

And here is a nice clue for us "consumers" who would like to get a liny bit of revenge.  Every time you see a Google link for AWEB and any of the other letter writing sweatshops.. well gosh.. go ahead and click it.. click those pay per click links thousands of times.. go ahead and let AWEB and the others waste their money paying for Google clicks that get them absolutely nothing.

Ok, my rant is finished.  Now I am off to meet with a group of Russian speakers in San Francisco, hopefully there will be a nice lady there who will like me. 

[CCowboy]

Great suggestions Scupto,

Following is my post on the "Trustworthy Agencies" thread.  Since Kevin started this topic, I thought it was better posted here.

Kevin,

I have a question for you.  I have made a number of trips to Kiev, Kharkov, and Sevastopol.  Do you think it is honest for an agency to have photos and imformation on profiles that are not updated for 4+ years.  There are women on your clone sites in Kiev and Kharkov who I personally met or saw their profiles 4 1/2 + years ago.  The exact same photos are posted.  Do you think it is honest to charge a man $50 for outdated information?  This is an ongoing problem with the most "reputable" agencies.  If a girl was 20 when she joined an agency and now 24, it's not such a big deal...except she's probably not serious, playing games, and a professional dater.  But photos of a 44 year old woman are posted when she was much slimmer in her late 30's, that is a big problem.  When I've talked to agencies about this: "those are the photos she gave us".  For the most part, I found agencies main interest is selling correspondence, gifts, the meetings and translation with very little regards for providing honest information.  Even with "so called" honest agencies, I found them to be anything but honest.  Maybe they aren't the obvious scamming agencies we all know about, but they are not honest the way a man expects.  Robert     

Since I posted this, I checked out some of the agencies on Kevin's "Honest Agency" list.  There are probably very few members who have made more trips than I have.  I have made multiple trips to St. Petersburg, Kiev, Kharkov, and Sevastopol.  In 18 days I will make my second trip to Dnepropetrovsk.  One advantage to being an "Old Timer" is being familiar with the agency photos.  I checked out the agencies that are located in the cities I have been to, mainly Kiev, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and St. Petersburg and only ages from 35-49.  Without exception, every agency had numerous profiles with photos more than 6 years old and outdated information.  Some of the women I've personally met or at least corresponded with.  Many of these women are pro daters.  I have never been to Kherson so I didn't check out Kherson Girls.  But many of the so called honest agencies have the same format as Kherson girls with the same charges.  So I can only assume that Kevin has satellite agencies in other cities.  I also checked out Jack Bragg's First Dream.  It includes women from both Ukraine and Russia.  Again, many of these women I have either met, corresponded with, or at least remember seeing their photos.  Many of these photos are at least 6 years old.  The profiles appear to be untouched since first listed, except for the woman's age.  Photos are old.  Information in the discription does not correspond with the woman's current age.  Jack has a disclaimer stating that 10-15% of the profiles may not be up to date for various reasons.  He offers 3-4 replacement profiles if there is a problem.  If a man picks his most preferred choices, what good does it do to offer him to choose replacement profiles from women he wasn't interested in in the first place?  I'm not picking on Kevin or Jack specifically.  It's something I've had to deal with for many years.  Even in Kiev there's an agency owned by a friend of mine and there are numerous profiles with the same photos of women from more than 5 years ago.  Until free sites like Flirt.Com, Loveplanet, Russian Free Personals, and Dating.Ru came along, men AND women had little choice.  Two years ago I was in Dnepropetrovsk and I had the same experience with Cindy Agency and Majestic Ladies.  For me, that was the last straw.  During the past year, I didn't use any agencies.  I won't use any agencies in Dnepropetrovsk.  Between the free sites and placing personal ads, there's no need to use an agency.  There may be exceptions to this, but for the most part, it's like playing Russian Roulette.  Sculpto made some great points and suggestions.  However, I think very little is going to change.  The marriage industry is a dirty business...for both the men and the women.  They are both exploited by greedy agency owners who are only in it for the money.  Why do you think IMBRO came into play?  The marriage agency business is a dying industry.  The free sites are not void of pro daters and scammers and it takes a lot of work to weed them out.  But they are free and it doesn't take rocket science to learn how to use them, even the ones that are 100% in Russian.  So, what I've learned is to assume all agencies are dishonest or at least fail to deliver services paid for an expected.  I'm sure both Kevin and Jack with have their responses.  All I can say is that their agency sites speak for themselves.  You can fool the newbies and the uninformed, but in the end, it all catches up with you.  Robert           

[Kevin]

I can not speak for all agencies. But KG already offers free letters from ladies and free group chats. The men and ladies can send intro letter to each other. But they are marked "intro letter" . For KG the lady has to hand write the intro letter and write the name of each client who will get one. The men have to select the ladies profile and click on send intro. The agency or software is not involved in any automatic or intro letters.

Free services are not Free as someone has to pay for them. If I were to allows each client to setup a private video chat to valitate each lady the time and cost would close me down within a week.  I do offer the Free group chats and you may invite any lady to the group chat to validate a lady.

Photo's are updated yearly or on request for free.

Other agencies. I would be careful of sites that have glamour shots only that are 3 or more years older. If the agency will  not post a current photo of the lady taken by the staff. I would use another agency.  (my personal opinon)

[ca71447]

.... a little thought on spotting a scam ... from personal experience ... when the letters you are receiving from the woman are written in three distinct and different writing styles.  And she says that she will be out of town for 2 weeks so don't write to her ... wait 2 days and write back to her (a test to find out if this was a scam)... and ... surprise ... she is still in town but it is not the same writing style in her response.  I stopped after that one.  Learned my lesson .... I got off rather cheaply on that one ....

[BeSmart]

I can see why the topic is debatable. After all, they tell you in the fine print that they provide "match making service", so you are the fool if you that any "First Letter" is sent to you on purpose from the girl is the photo that saw your profile and is interested. No scam because they covered themselves. Only immoral.

But it becomes pretty clear when you take it a step further into reality and talk about what happens next, which is not in the fine print. You write letters to this girl, she answers your questions, tell you about herself, etc. Letters addressed to you, from her. Yet the girl in the photo is not writing them. She does not even know you exist. She may not even know she is on the website. They are making profit by intentionally deceiving you into thinking that you are making a connection with the girl in the photo, while in reality, someone else in an office somewhere is good at writing the right things that you want to hear and want to continue the correspondence.

Isn't that a pretty clear cut scam, fraud, immoral, and I'm sure several other words?   

[Shadow]

BeSmart, from your experience it sure seems so. Now the big question. Did you ever try to notify the network to take action against this ?

[BeSmart]

Shadow: Well, yes and no. Most of my complains were about the "girls" writing ridiculous letters, (different from her others), letters to someone else, or giving me incomplete addresses. All of those are simple ploys to get me to write more and pay more. I'm sure love it when guys reply and say "Why did you tell me about the Crimean War and not answer my questions?", or "This letter is not for me, who is Mark?" or "Thanks for your address, but what is your apartment number?"

And how does the network respond? Just like you would expect. "We don't know why she wrote you that, there was a mix up, we'll refund your credit." or "This is her full address" They're actually pretty good with responding to complaints.

But I never called them out on the big scam that I discovered. I know other guys have. What would they say? That they would investigate, fine the agency, etc. But her profile would remain. They just play oblivious because the crime is being committed in Ukraine, far away. You gotta love their "anti scam website" Their whole business model is based on this fraud! If someone grew some morals and made sure that every girl sincerely wanted to be on their website and personally wrote to only the men she was interested in, their income would drop by an extreme amount.   

Maybe I am guilty of enabling them, but I was okay with that because I was actually using the scam to my advantage. As I wrote in my Trip Report, I just played the game long enough to gain direct contact. And some of those girls in the pictures turned out to be real sweet girls. They never looked for a foreign love connection (in my oppinion a good thing), but just like any woman, became delighted to meet a good guy who would make them feel special.   

That doesn't make it okay. Before I because wise, I lost a lot of money on pointless letters. I would love to find a way to recover that loss. I have all the proof, but to my knowledge there is no current lawsuit.

[Shadow]

As I am too far away, and never was interested in paying by the letter (Dutch are known to be cheapskates ) I could not help you with the lawsuit. However I hope that someone will be hurt enough to try it some day.
Thing is that as long as nobody forces them to investigate, they will cash in the money. Even if at some point someone will manage to fight beyond refunding some credits, they could just drop a local agent, make his secretary head of a new company in the same office, and continue. Only a combined effort that would show a structure in the operation of dishonest behavior might help, and as I have been trying to point out it is extremely hard to prove such a structure. There is the woman, the agent and software errors to keep blame of their own operation, as long as the cash keeps rolling in their direction there is no problem in throwing some cash at those few who take it up with them.

[Sculpto]

I wish there was a way for us men to get organized, research the suspected scam sites and the girls they promote and go after said sites in an unified way.  Probably just wishfull thinking and the affiliate agencies will just find new ways to circumvent whatever rules a particular site comes up with.

BTW.. I just read Besmart's trip report and I want to give you kudos for doing it right and for finding a good agency in Sevastopol.  I had personally been avoiding that city and Simferopol because of a corrupt agency I encountered on HRB that was sending tons of fake letters, assuming it would be next to immpossible to find a legit girl in that region.  Thanks for putting some hope back into Krym.