Success Rate for guys who mailed presents

[Admin]

By the way, I am suprised with the lack of numbers in this survey? If you are reading this thread and can contribute to the poll please do. Of course I take full responsibility for not designing the best poll for this board. We are limited in the polls we can execute (Dan - maybe the next version will allow higher quality poll design). Bruno, sorry I did not make the right category for you.

Bruce, I have found the poll option to be reasonably-flexible. What would you like to see improved? I can pass along your comments to the board software folks, who seem to be pretty responsive.

- Dan

[Bruce]

Dan, maybe I am not astute enough with the software.   Very often that is my problem ie. not computer literate enough.  I initially tried to design a different poll, a poll that was more specific initially and then had a follow-up question.   I wanted to know what kinds of gifts guys were giving ie. money, trips etc., and more specifically how far the relationship went.  I was unable to do this, so I made it into something that the software would let me submit.   However, I was able to get something that seems to show some significance, albeit with very small numbers responding , which should guide people in the process of meeting and marrying a girl from the FSU as well as providing interesting discussion amongst members.   

[Admin]

Dan, maybe I am not astute enough with the software. Very often that is the problem. I initially tried to design a different poll,a poll thatwas more specific initially and then had a follow-up question. I was unable to do this. However, I was able to get something that seemsto show some significance, albeit with very small numbers responding , which should guide people in the process of meeting and marrying a girl from the FSU as well as providing interesting discussion amongst members.

Yeah - there is something of an 'art' to effective poll design. So long as you keep it simple (REALLY simple), the board software should work just fine. As you try to become more sophisticated, the types of polls in most board software programs is not up to the task.

The other issue you mention is the number of respondents. It seems you had about 10 respondents to your poll - which is about normal for our board. I am told that other, similar board with much larger claimed membership, has similar participation to most of its polls as well. If accurate, then it tells us that few members of the board actually participate in the polls.

I didn't vote in the poll because I couldn't find an option that 'fit' well - but then again, I didn't study it long because it ran over the holiday period and i jsut didn't have the time. I suspect a lot of people will do that though. If they see a selection that obviously matches their response - they will vote. if they must study the selections and they have only a passing interest, they may choose to not vote. That is why I suggest to always keep the poll options simple and easy.

FWIW

- Dan

[Bruno]

Bruno, sorry I did not make the right category for you.

Don't worry about category...

In my case, i always send some gift... not reality expensive but some original thing...

The long lasting of relation is not only a problem of the side of men... success of relation is due to the two partner... so, the interaction of gift in relation is related to both partner...

Some women will be shocked when she receive cheap gift for special date ( birthday, St Valentin )... some other enjoy simple gift... the gift is important not the value of the gift...

Usualy, women appreciate surprise gift... if you come back with flower after work and give it to her, she will ask "why?"... you will reply "because i love you"... and she will be happy and you will have a good evening together...

When gift become a obligate thing, it is not more a gift but more like business, a exchange of service or object...

In my case, my ex wife have receive the gift she have always wish... the opportunity to stay in a other country... of course, when her gift was secured by her new nationality, i was not more needed... the gift is not responsible for the end of our relation... the use she have make from the gift is responsible...

When women say that men are obligate to make gift, they mean that men need buy them... it is not more gift related but business related... in so case, gift don't help to keep the relation working...

 

[andrewfi]

I do not for one second suggest that Russia as a whole is a rich country. But it is true that wages across the country are increasing rapidly, that a very large proportion of the population can now see changes both in their current life and in the future. There is a lot of evidence for this.

Now, if you are seeking a person who can not take advantage of these opportunities because she is too dim or too lazy or too old then you are correct. But for people who want to marry someone with an education and who knows how to use it, someone who is motivated to make a decent life FOR HERSELF then it is becoming entirely obvious that a tipping point has been reached - a point at which an ordinary person see no advantage in marrying a foreign guy who is almost certain to be older than her, probably much more likely to be fat (be right guys, even most of the few 'slim' Americans are fat by local standards!), and with other significant deficiencies.

Most people do not WANT to leave their community and country, so the incentive to do so has to be strong. If you were correct Bruce, there would not be a problem of disappearing women! This is a new phenomenon, it did not exist when you were looking because there was no shortage of women. I remember walking the streets and seeing photographers who specialised in pictures for MOB agencies, they are no more...

So, the competition for the relatively few REAL women is increasing and becasue they can see a better life for themselves in their country, through marriage or their own efforts, you guys have to try harder. In my country, there are plenty of girls driving around in new and nice cars, cars they paid for, or that their boyfriends paid for. The ugly and dim girls are in the countryside, the bright and intelligent ones are in the cities and they do OK! Russia is perhaps a couple of years away from what we see here in Estonia. The MOB industry is to all intents and purposes dead as a mass market of girls willing to leave and those that are in the market are being courted by generous and sensible guys.

Of course, if you chase the ugly and stupid, then ALL the above means nothing. The ugly and stupid, like the poor, are always with us and like the poor, usually desperate.

[Bruce]

Andrew, as always I tend to agree with you on the long term future of Russia, but I also am an optimist.  I firmly believe the average Russian is more pessimistic on their long term opinion of Russia.  I still believe the average American (though he does tend to be overweight, balding and middle aged) seeking a RW can find a younger, prettier, just as intelligent girl as he could in the USA.

[andrewfi]

I am sure that you guys can still get a BBD in Russia, given the right tools and effort.

As the noise level increases so you need to shout louder.

I am pretty sure that sending a nice watch, or mobile phone is going to get the attention of a pretty and nice girl somewhat better than sending around a dubious delivery geezer with a bunch of week old roses and an old digital camera!

All the evidence we have points to a population of women, in Russia, who are actively seeking to marry an American guy, of around 100,000. Of those, because pareto applies, 80,000 are of little interest to you guys (too old, too fat, too many kids, too ugly, not nice). That leaves just 20,000 women getting almost all the attention and you think that there is no competition and that 'the nicest guy' wins!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!:D

Dream on!

[Bruno]

80,000 are of little interest to you guys (too old, too fat, too many kids, too ugly, not nice).

Andrew, what do you know about our own personal taste... no one men is the other...

Too old ? My actual upper limit is 40 year old

Too fat ? Woman who have a weight of 45 kg for a heigt of 1m75 are not attractive in my eyes... good volume at the right place make a woman... i don't like the androgine top model...

Kids ? Below 6 year, they are welcome...

Ugly, not nice ? Everybody have personal taste...

I have just make a fast search in a database with 14997 FSU women... i have select my range of age, weight, height ... this give me the result of 10603 match...

You seem to have mainly physical selection point... beautiful FSU woman is not difficult to find... what is more difficult is find one with mind, good character, heart,... a soulmate and perfect wife... difficult to find her with the few data of ads...

If i wish a FSU babe, a trophy wife, it is not difficult to find... i have marry one before... the real difficulty is find a good real woman with have outside AND inner beauty... our local b!tch are usualy beautiful women, i don't see why in FSU, it will be other... i think that the local beauty search foreign man because they can be some kind of b!tch for russian man... why a sexy babe of 18 year old is not able to find a local men... certainly she have some hidden defect...

So, i see a big board with the word "danger" who hang over your 20000 super women... the 80000 other one who are not perfect ( who is perfect ? ) can be good marriage "material".

If men use the lust factor for select women, they have certainly not read the forum... and they will pay these mistake 100 time later...

 

 

[Bruce]

Bruno, I of course continue to agree that character is the most important thing we should seek in a RW for marriage.  The problem for most men is that the eye is the initial judge, and shortly thereafter the "little head" often starts thinking for the "big head."  Of course the "available" never married 18 year old "hottie" either has an underlying pathology or a hidden agenda.  However, once a given girl has been married and divorced or with child / children life has a way of maturing their life perspective rather quickly.  So, I would not discount every girl 22 to 25 for the average 40 year or so old Westerner, though I would most of them.  If a girl is 22 to 25 years of age they are short on life experience and are immature.  Chances are a given girl becomes more "serious" about honestly seeking a Westerner as they age, but not necessarily so.   Unfortunately, the good  agencies honestly looking to legitimately match quality people seem to be losing out to the impersonal (nobody knows the guy or girl) sites which routinely list married girls, prostitutes, phony photos and outright scammers.

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ You miss the point.

1) We know that the ONLY way in which a man can make an initial choice is based upon the "profiles' on web sites and, unless the interweb in Belgium and the US is different to the rest of the world the only thing in a profile approaching concrete and reality is the pictures. Unlike most of you guys I do NOT make choices about women based upon their pictures. You guys are doing that. I deal only with real women.

2) Pareto applies in the agency business, it is constantly demonstrated and agency owners tell us so. Respected agency owners tell us that about 5% of their clients are successful in finding a man and that only about 20% of women get most of the letters.

Given the above we know that if there are about 100,000 women and that pareto applies then 80% of the contact goes to 20% of the women. That represents 20,000 women being chased after by, from what we can see, a lot more men than 20,000.

My tastes are not at issue. Bruce raised an interesting point. My comments based upon what I have seen, what I have been told and what I have read suggest that if you want to get a pareto girl (one of the attractive and personable girls who meets the other requirements of age, children, religion and all the other stuff), then tangible gifts, if not essential, are very helpful - particularly if you do not have the intangible gift of time to spend building a real relationship.

edited away the last para...

Bruno knows what he is looking for and what he can get.

[Admin]

Bruno, sorry mate, but if you are as you appear in your pictures, if you are as you tell us, if you are as you write, then the only trophy wife you are likely to get is a girl who won a swimming competition as a kid and still has the prize on her shelf!For you, I guess, you take your pic from the other 80% and in that part of the pool, the pickings should be easier - but still, as yet, we can see, no prize...

Andrew, your comments were OK up to the very end. You closed with an unnecessary insult.

Please restrict your comments to address the facts and merits of the argument, without sullying the board with insulting commentary that is designed to do nothing other than arouse someone's ire.

Thanks,

- Dan

[Leslie]

Andrew,

I think you have got it wrong on MOB.  You don't touch the headline girls at an agency with a 3 metre stick.  You give them a mobile phone this week - Franz takes them shopping next week.  The early 20's 9's and 10's are not for keeping (unless you can afford to support a princess!) If you are pushing it in terms of comparative age and looks in FSU you better have big bucks because when you bring her home she can surely find a better deal than you.....

I visited St Pete in fall 2001.  I dated 16 women and every single one was out for what they could get. Some were prostitutes.  If you are doing MOB stay away from Moscow, St Pete and Kiev women because the headline women registered on the agencies are salt fish.  Read Roberts trip reports.  He has a VAST amount of experience dealing with agency women from Kiev.

Bruce is correct.  Outside the big cities people are poor.  Poverty is the main driving factor in MOB.  I know western Ukraine real well and there are LOTS of good looking SINCERE women in late 20's early 30's who would marry a DECENT foreign guy.  Problem is that virtually NO decent guys turn up!

PS Dan Good moderation post.

PPS Bruno  You need to spend more time in FSU.  If you spend the time you will find your other half

 

 

[Bruno]

Bruno knows what he is looking for and what he can get.

 

Now, yes... i know... but it was not the case several year ago... not everybody stay a idiot all his life... some learn

[BC]

Looking around at the married couples, i.e. agency testemonials, couples we know and other sources I've seen good looking women but not really what I would consider to be true magazine style trophy wives.

I have however, met women married and unmarried in RU that were real knockouts but voiced unfavorable opin regarding a foreign marriage via MOB methods.

MOB does not represent the 'cream of the crop' of FSU women imho.  Women going this route can be looked down upon by their peers and it's not just jealousy.. unless they are simply profiting from the suckers that abound -  which seems quite acceptable.

It took quite a while for our relationship to be accepted among those friends and extended family that were not really aware how we met.

Regarding presents and women.. there is a 'Scrooge factor' involved.. It goes like this:

Women enjoy presents, going out and enjoying life within their man's limits.. unfortunately many men are unable to declare or wildly overstate their limits, turning them into 'Scrooge McDuck' when he starts thinking about the EOM CC statement or possible refusal at the next ATM.

[andrewfi]

Bruno, I think that you would tend to agree with what I wrote in the post Dan criticised.

I mentioned that one could do things fast, or slow and that if one took things slowly then it was not so necessary to shout to get attention. You are taking things slowly and building a relationship with that resource.

I think a difference between my approach to generosity and hence stuff like gifts and that of many local guys is that I am generous within the limits that I know I have. I want to make sure that I have enough money for food and to go out next week. So, I do not go in for the grand gesture unless I know I can afford it. Many local guys will do the grand gesture and then hit up their girlfriend for a loan the next week, or simply lie low until payday.

Problem is that for most women, people in general, we remember the grand gesture and forget that the giver was unable to afford to go out the next week and so we more prudent chaps suffer in comparison.

Les, whilst I might agree about keeping away from the pareto girls in agencies, we absolutely know that most guys do chase after these one. So, if one is going to play that game, it makes sense to know the rules and play by them, yes?

Are all the pareto girls evil and wicked (when they actually exist!)? I am sure not. But they are, sensibly for them, using their resources to secure the best outcome for themselves. It seems kinda hypocritical for guys to brag that they can go to the FSU and find 'a better woman than I can get back home' and then criticise girls who are doing exactly the same!

[catzenmouse]

I'm one of those who sent packages pretty regularly - once every 5-6 weeks as I recall. Nothing extravagant, but she and her loved ones did enjoy certain things American. I also was one of those who sent a monthly sum - I hesitate to use the word "allowance" lest somebody reminds me that allowances are for kids - spare me the philosophy - but for Elvira and me, the monthly made sense. We were way beyond buying favors at that point in our relationship and process, but I do agree that monthly support is not something to be hastily enacted, and in many cases should be totally avoided if possible. We found that it was not an everyday task to just pull up stakes and head across the ocean without many months of preparation and sorting out affairs - including the apartment, her teaching career and familial relationships. She made ends meet just fine before me, but after we crosssed paths her cost of living increased solely by virtue of our plans.

Vaughn

My package sending was about every 4 to 5 weeks and was mostly small stuff. Teddy bear, some toy cars for Sergei, some language tapes & books, etc. I did send her a necklace but that was the only semi-expensive thing I sent. I sent money to cover all the costs necessary for the documents she needed and a bit extra but she saved all the extra and brought it with her. She still spends precious little and only gets what she really needs unless I push her on it. She's been wearing one of my old bathrobes for almost a year now and every time I talk about buying one she'll say "No, I won't be needing it" so finally they had a big sale at her work on fabric and she bought the fabric and made a new bathrobe. Funny though, so far she still prefers to wear my old one... Gotta love this girl!

Ken 

[andrewfi]

BC ~ I can't help but think that the women in agencies are, in general, and when they actually exist, are there becasue they have no other means of achieving their goal.

The clever ones can get a decent job/education.

The attractive and pleasant ones can get a decent enough local guy.

The ones in agencies are ones who have limited choices, or are lazy, or who have issues that cause local guys to reject them. (kinda like the guys really!)

And yes, the foreign guys here, who want a good looking foreign guy do fine, but they come in line after the local guys who have what the local girls want.

It really is true that very, very few women see their future being best served by moving country.

Many of us foreign guys are not exactly the pick of the litter either, so we tend to think we do OK, as do the foreign guys who end up marrying the ones that the locals and expats do not want...

[KenC]

BC ~ I can't help but think that the women in agencies are, in general, and when they actually exist, are there becasue they have no other means of achieving their goal.

The clever ones can get a decent job/education.

The attractive and pleasant ones can get a decent enough local guy.

The ones in agencies are ones who have limited choices, or are lazy, or who have issues that cause local guys to reject them. (kinda like the guys really!)

And yes, the foreign guys here, who want a good looking foreign guy do fine, but they come in line after the local guys who have what the local girls want.

It really is true that very, very few women see their future being best served by moving country.

Many of us foreign guys are not exactly the pick of the litter either, so we tend to think we do OK, as do the foreign guys who end up marrying the ones that the locals and expats do not want...

Andrew,

You make it sound as if these women have an either or decsion to make.  As in either stick with the local men or go for the foreign guy.  That simply isn't true.  A lot, maybe the majority, continue to date locally while they attempt to hook up with a foreigner.

My wife, Lena, is from Tver where there is a well known agency.  She and some of her friends joined the agency on a lark.  I know she was never "in to" the agency that much and never seriously considered leaving Russia.  As she is an attractive woman, she continued to date local men and would occasionally meet an American man.  She found meeting American men interesting and she got practical use of her English skills.  She certainly would have flunked Dr Woody's "converse in reverse" test.  She even dropped out of the agency for a time because of a serious developing relationship with a fellow Russian.

Her attitude toward a foreign partner was very much like mine.  We weren't disappointed with the locals, nor were we hell bent on finding a foreign partner, but we were both open to the possibility.

KenC

[andrewfi]

You are right, this is not an either or situation. I should not have given that impression.

But, it is interesting to note the significant number of women that I know who do claim to have sworn off local guys and of course RWG is infested with women who claim that they did indeed reject local guys.

Of course they always use the same excuses that tend to compliment the foreigner without being true.

BUT, I, like some others, find it hard to believe that any woman of reasonable mental capacity joins an agency without wanting to obtain the benefits that flow from it.

[BC]

If an agency woman has a choice between two men, both emotionally qualified:

One a RU man living in RU with a western salary and the other an AM living in a foreign country..

Who will she choose?



There are emotionally qualified men on both sides of the atlantic (or pacific for that matter).  I'd even be willing to say the proportions are also quite equal across the waters.

Lets face it.. For women seriously contemplating the MOB route, AM are and will remain at most an alternative solution.

 

[andrewfi]

I agree, because, except in unusual circumstances, it does not take too much to persuade even a fairly venal person that their best interests, overall, are served by staying in their own country and community.

I think oftentimes we tend to forget that poverty is a relative experience, not absolute. Just with customer service - one does not have to be the best, just a little better than the competition is enough. For most to feel satisfied, particularly with the still prevalent mindset, all one has to do is to be better than those that one identifies as one's peers.

In a group of women with no car, a Toyota is just fine for a woman to be top of that pecking order. In a group where holidays are taken in the Crimea, if at all, a holiday in Egypt is the ne plus ultra.

[jb]

Andrew,

In a group of women with no car, a Toyota is just fine for a woman to be top of that pecking order.

True, a Toyota is not a BMW or a Mercedes, but have you priced a new  Toyota lately?  A new top of the line Camry can run in excess of  $25,000 USD these days, and that's not the most expensive Toyota out  there, just the one my wife drives....  If you want to get pricy,  look over the Lexus LX with prices starting at around $68,000.

Let's not denigrate the poor old Toyota, it's really a fine little car.

[Albert]

Toyotas are great cars.  Even the lower lines.  Camry didn't become number one in sales in USA for nothing.

And if you want luxury at its best, read the Consumer Reports and other such.  Lexus has been beating BMW, Mercedes, Audi and the rest for several years.

[andrewfi]

I think you understand the point well enough. If there were no differnces in perceptions of the relative value of cars there would be but a single brand and but two or three models.

[al-c]

Everything in moderation.  Don't go nuts on the gifts, but don't be a complete zero with them either, and don't limit them to just the special occasions (Women's Day, birhtday, etc).  She expects gifts for these occasions.  Occasionally, you need to do the unexpected, such as send her flowers just because you love her.

Also don't go nuts on spending when you are there because you will give her the impression that this is the way you normally spend, and when you don't, she will wonder what is wrong.  Take her out to dinner a few times, but have dinner in her flat a few times too, and also go to the fast food there once or twice as well.  Resist the temptation to lavish her with dinner, shows, etc, even though these things are really cheap in Russia.