Success Rate for guys who mailed presents

[Bruce]

I believe the guys who regularly buy their girlfriends / fiances / her  family presents ultimately fail ie. the girl never makes it here or  they do not survive the fiance visa period or they tend to divorce  earlier?  Any comments on this thought?  Am I dead wrong or  correct?  I base my theory on pre and post "fiance" followed by  crash & burn stories I have read on boards over the years.  By  the way, regular cash payments counts as gifts as well :hairraising:. 

About the poll - still together abroad married (stam) means your now wife survived the  fiance visa period and you got married.  The second category means  your relationship failed at any stage prior to marriage. 

This poll should help guys in the process set realistic and hopefully  statistically (if you guys are honest) meaningful numbers on how often  you should or should not give presents / money / gifts to your girl  prior to marriage in the West.

Its too bad you guys with multiple marriage(s) / relationship(s) could  not vote many times as your gift giving strategy? may have  changed.  However, there probably are alot of guys who have had  multiple relationships prior to finding that special girl who have  always had the same gift giving ways (or should I say strategy?).

[Turboguy]

I think money and presents are two different things.   In my failed case I sent her flowers for Valentines Day, Candy and a stuffed animal for Womans day,  A digital camera for her birthday and to me that was the presents.   

After we started the K-1  she quit her job and I sent her some money to get by on and to cover my expenses for apartments when I was there.   I did not send her any large amounts of money.   Mine relationship did not work out.  I don't think the presents were a factor one way or the other but I think guys who go too crazy on presents will pay a price for it with a spoiled wife and an unhappy marriage.

I think I would hold to about the same stradegy on the next one.  If a girl is too much into what she can get out of the relationship, I am gone quickly. 

[Bruno]

Sorry Bruce, i cannot find my categorie...

In my case, it is more like the number 3 but not the STAM... more the AAD ( already abroad divorced )

 

[jb]

[size="3"]My wife, during our dating  period, always maintained that the best present I could give her was  myself.  She knew the trips, (airfare, unpaid leave, etc.), were  costly and she felt that was gift enough.   She did receive  birthday gifts and holiday items, but nothing on a regular schedule  until after we were married.  She didn't expect it and I didn't  think to offer.  I was courting a woman, not buying one.

And, yes, we did spend some money while I was in-country, but for the  most part we stayed in her flat in Moscow and lived very much as  typical Russians on the local economy without a lot of  flash.   The most expensive holiday we ever did was to spend  our honeymoon week at [/size]  [size="3"][color="#008000"]the  Sheremetyevo Palace, which has been converted into a luxury spa.   Even that was cheap in comparison to what some of you guys are paying  for hotel rooms in Kiev on a daily basis.  [/color][/size]

[Voyageur]

I brought presents (jewelry) for my wife each time I went to see her.  And of course I bought her flowers for Women's Day and on several  occasions. But now that we are together, I do not buy her flowers as  much (I will buy her some today- thanks to this thread;))   or presents as I did when we were apart.  When we were discussing  Christmas presents for her friends and family yesterday, she told me  that present are important in Russia (as us "experienced" guys know).

[KenC]

My experience is much like jb's.  I sent Lena flowers for her birthday and Woman's day.  I gave her a birthday gift that wasn't too extravegant and bought a few things for her while I was visiting.  The only money I ever sent was to cover her visa and travel to America expenses.  In short, I treated her very much like I would have any woman that I dated locally.  There just seems to be something terribly wrong to me when I hear of guys putting their RW on a monthly allotment.

I don't know if there is any correlation between gift giving and the successfulness of these relationships though.  I think there is more correlation between "guys that treat their relationship with RW as normal as possible" and the ultimate success.  I had a wonderful relationship with a pretty young woman from PA.  (I lived in MI at the time.)  I can honestly say that I treated my relationship with Lena very much the same.

KenC

[Son of Clyde]

I sent gifts for every major holiday and was sending money once a month after she lost her job. Once her boss knew of our engagement it was like she was no longer needed. He saw it as just a matter of time before she was leaving anyway so he speeded up the process. Nice guy.

[KenC]

Clyde,

Your case may be one of the exceptions in my opinion to my usual stance not to send money.  Your wife's situation was out of her control and directly linked to her relationship to you.  You did the right thing in helping her.  That is a lot different than the RW that quite their jobs and live off their AM.

KenC

[BC]

Besides flowers, perfume and the usual small gifts brought along for a trip to meet the family the only gift I gave was a token of our engagement and leftover rubles at the end of the trip.  Once engaged, left a rarely used atm card to take care of costs related to travels and documents needed to get married in RU.

Nothing was ever 'requested'.

[Jet]

My experience was very similar to JB, KenC, and BC. Gifts for the holidays (not just for her but for Kolya, Mom, Dad, & Babushka.) Cash was limited to an ATM card she used 1 time ($40 IIRC) travel and visa related expenses and two other occasions where I deemed it important:

1) When she got stiffed on her salary for 2 months running and had exausted her savings (her mom was stiffed for the same two months so cash was tight all around).

2) $300.00 To buy her wedding dress and shoes. She found something she was madly in love with but thought the price was too high. I thought it was important that she was completely happy with her dress. After seeing the dress the thought had also crossed my mind that something similar here in the states would have run about five grand..... that was just icing on the cake

[Turboguy]

This one ought to take the cake.  How about sending money as a gift (I will tell her it is a loan,) to an ex-fiancee.   I haven't decided but am thinking about it.   Luda on her way back, had to take the plane to Moscow and then an 8 hour train ride to N. Novgorod.  When she put her bags down to buy the train tickets in Moscow, someone ran off with them.  In the bags were all the clothes she owned, her cell phone I bought her as a gift for $ 250 and all the money she earned in the USA and was taking back to live on till she got situated. 

She has not even told me about this happening yet but we have stayed in contact a bit.   When she was here I had her working in my office cause she didn't want to sit home and wanted to make some money.   She didn't know it but I was taking the money out of my paycheck to give her since we really can't pay in cash and she was not legal to work.  She also helped me with a remodeling project and I paid her for that too.   I had her help me with that until I got to the new roof part and I didn't want her on the roof.  She did work harder than most guys.

I am thinking about sending her some cash and telling her she can return it when she gets situated.   She did tell my office manager about it in an E-Mail but is keeping it from me at the moment.    Sending her $ 500 or so is not really going to hurt me any and I do feel bad for her.   She should have known better than to have cash in her suitcase.  I noticed one time when she was here, she left her purse in a shopping cart in WalMart and wondered all over the place.   She is a little nieve and trusting.

[KenC]

You're a good man, Turbo.

KenC

[BC]

In such situations never expect anything back. I assume she is not still at the train station and made it home ok.

If not it's kinda like shopping.. it's quite all right to put the items back where they were on the shelf. 

[Turboguy]

Fortunately she had her money out and her passport to buy the tickets for N. N.  She did get home ok.   If I do send money which I would like to do, I don't expect anything back.   I just want to try to do it in a way she will take it because she is very proud and honest.  (With money, she was a sneak in other ways)

[Vaughn]

Voyageur wrote:

I do not buy her flowers as much (I will buy her some today- thanks to this thread)  or presents as I did when we were apart.

Good idea, Voyageur! I try to remind myself to pick up some flowers and give them to her for no reason or occasion at all - it knocks her socks off when I do this.

I'm one of those who sent packages pretty regularly - once every 5-6 weeks as I recall. Nothing extravagant, but she and her loved ones did enjoy certain things American. I also was one of those who sent a monthly sum - I hesitate to use the word "allowance" lest somebody reminds me that allowances are for kids - spare me the philosophy - but for Elvira and me, the monthly made sense. We were way beyond buying favors at that point in our relationship and process, but I do agree that monthly support is not something to be hastily enacted, and in many cases should be totally avoided if possible. We found that it was not an everyday task to just pull up stakes and head across the ocean without many months of preparation and sorting out affairs - including the apartment, her teaching career and familial relationships. She made ends meet just fine before me, but after we crosssed paths her cost of living increased solely by virtue of our plans.

Vaughn

[Leslie]

There is a golden rule -

She has to love you for who you are and not for the money you are spending.

I squandered over $15,000 on various FSU women before I learnt the truth of this statement.

Some guys will never learn because spending money is the only decent card they have in their hand.  They will get what they deserve.  There are countless stories on the boards from sad guys looking for sympathy  "I spent thousands on her.  Paid for foriegn holidays.  Brought her to my country.  Then she just left me!  Well what do you expect?  She wanted your money not you!

You cannot buy a happy marriage so don't begin the relationship by trying to!

 

 

[andrewfi]

A comment from a guy who lives in Saint Petersburg and who dates women from agencies (or used to - I have not spoken to him in a while).

He told me that the best looking and most popular girls would not bother to rely to a guy unless he made it plain to them that he was serious. How did they make it plain? They sent initial gifts and also, from the outset, made concrete plans to visit.

The interesting thing was that it was often European guys who were sending the gifts (and scoring the women!) and the Americans were having a hard time because they were regarded as either not serious or too selfish.

I make no comment as to the quality of the relationships except to note that the Europeans, like the Americans, were seeking to marry women they would not have been able to marry in their own country. I am thus sure the quality of the relationships would be equally as good for the gift givers and the non gift givers. The difference is that one still ends up shelling out for gifts and goodies that do not result in a relationship, or eventual marriage.

My own observations tend to mirror those of my contact. Gifts/spending DO tend to demonstrate a degree of seriousness, they DO tend to help a guy to get in touch with that which he earnestly desires. In the end, though the sensible guy employing such a strategy will still need to make his choices based upon the person he is with and his desires and goals.

On that basis, I suggest that Les did not waste his money, he got the attention he wanted, he learned a lot. In the end, the woman he married, AFAIK, was not a recipient of great largesse. He did spend a lot of time in the process. If I wanted to find and marry a lovely woman at haste, I would be a gift giver. If I had time and patience, I would not.

Gift giving is simply an element of the marketing mix from the side of the men and a product benefit from the side of the women.

Les realised he had time and patience and so decreased his gift spending to an appropriate level given his other resources.

[Son of Clyde]

My wife never expected expensive presents. When I sent her a necklace for Woman's day she was very happy but then asked me why I needed to send her an expensive present. It was about $350.00 which would certainly not break me. She would have been happy with flowers, candy, perfume or a stuffed animal which I had already sent her for Christmas and her birthday.

[Leslie]

Andrew,

You and I have posted several thousand words on this topic over the last few years.

You cannot take money out of the equation, anymore than you can take looks.  The extremes of either variable don't make for a happy marriage IMHO.

Sure you can gain some women's attention with your billfold :cool:

I don't recomend you marry this type of woman.  :huh:

A steamy affair is fine

If you want a much younger FSU girlfriend then act like a rich FSU guy....

Spending money is part of the sponsorship deal.  FSU guys know how to conduct this type of relationship - Few western guys do.  They are way too weak to deal with the foxes !

[andrewfi]

I do not know for sure about the girls to whom my friend was referring, but the girls I have come across...

Well, the guys doing the showing out have been acting pretty much as a local guy would. Frankly, I do not think that if a woman is registered in a marriage agency that is directed at foreign guys and is one of their pareto girls that it is too outré to expect that such demonstrations by suitors might be necessary. The best looking women, the ones that most Americans claim not to want (And then spend all their time trying to get!) all have choices and so the guy needs to stand out from the crowd.

The less attractive girls will not get such attention and thus will not need such inducements, they have fewer choices.

From what I have seen, it is rarely the most attractive women who end up on the plane to the USA and the ones who are genuinely beautiful are usually going to be with a guy who can deliver on his promises, wherever he lives.

That is why I reckon that time and patience is the other side of the coin. Not all beautiful women marry rich guys, but you do not snare one by writing an email, sending a picture and rolling up outside her appartment with K1 visa papers in hand. I have seen too many letters from Americans to Russian women (don't ask how!) to think that any rational woman is going make a choice on the basis of what these guys are writing! It is other things that set them apart. From what I have seen, the letter writing for these women is simply a necessary chore.

Just because a woman is beautiful and knows her place in the pecking order does not make her a bad person, it just makes her self aware and that is a good thing!

[KenC]

You guys are making me feel very good about what I was able to pull off: A much youngerand beautiful woman without spending my way into her heart.  All that and love too!:kissing:

KenC

[andrewfi]

Ken, times are changing. When you met your wife Russia was in a state of collapse. One could get a woman simply by arriving. Nowadays Russia is becoming a wealthy country, people can see changes occuring, for the better. In 1998, ordinary women were willing to sell themsleves, in many ways, that they do not need to do these days. Marrying an older, fatter, foreigner is no longer such a bright choice to make and yet the demand for these women is increasing, one needs to shout a little louder to be heard above the noise.

The bright ones can have a reasonable hope of making a decent future for themselves and so they must balance their options. Selling themselves to a foreign guy is not the only way to secure a decent future.

[KenC]

I hear ya Andrew,

There certainly was a great deal of women that appeared to be desperate to leave Russia at that time.  Leave it to me to find one that had a good life, a good future and vehemently wanted to stay in Russia.  I was naive about RW with ulterior motives at that time too.  All I wanted was an equal shot at the most normal relationship possible under the circumstances.

I have witnessed a lot of other people's mistakes in this process over the last 7 years and it seems that every time a guy relies on the "welcome to America" card too much, he ultimately fails.  It is because if selling her on America is all you have to offer, then why does she need you once she has arrived?  I am not saying that coiming to America or Europe should be a negative thing, it just cannot be the only motivation.  Almost every guy that has succeeded started with a real relationship in the fsu and had much more to offer than just his home town and a green card.

KenC

[Bruce]

"Marrying an older, fatter, foreigner is no longer such a bright choice to make and yet the demand for these women is increasing, one needs to shout a little louder to be heard above the noise."

Andrew, I just have to disagree with you about this.  Maybe what you are saying applies to the 5 % who actually are making money and have a higher standard of income than they previously had.  However, when you get out of Moscow and St. Petersburg most of the people are really poor.  Now, you may argue with exactly how many people (what percentage of the people) control the majority of the wealth in Russia and maybe the pure economic statistics show things are getting better, and I agree they probably are, but the average Russian does not feel that way.  During Soviet times the average Russian felt like they were middle class citizens.  Now, the average Russian really has problems making ends meet, and feels worse about their country and is concerned about their future.  The population of Russia is expected to decline to 75 million in the fairly near future.  When people feel positive about their future they tend to have children.  This is not the case with Russia.  The country is extremely polluted.  You just smell open gas and fumes the second you get out of the airport in the Moscow region.  A recent report on Russian news channel 1 claims that those Muscovites who get out of Moscow weekly to the countryside live an average of ten years longer than their compatriots who stay in Moscow, which is supposedly primarily due to lack of air quality and rampant environmental polluting. 

When you get outside, into the smaller cities, in general,  you see a rapidly deteriorating infrastructure, with corrupt local government officials spending money on their own personal pet projects or themselves, while neglecting simple things we expect our government to provide in the West (quality water, roads, environmental and food safety etc.).  I occasionally tell my wife - why don't we go to live in Russia?  I've saved enough money, I can sell my house at a nice profit and move to her small city.  Her answer is always no - and there are many reasons why.  Her first is that she thinks I would die quickly in Russia, which I dispute, but she may have a point because my face is obviously - not Russian.  Her second answer is - how would we eat healthy?  There is just no way we would have all the fresh fruits, vegetables and milk products she especially has come to expect and enjoy here.  My wife always tells me how much better she physically feels now that she gets quality food on a regular basis (thats with her propensity to continue to contaminate food with mayonaise and other high fat poisons like she is used to).  My wife claims the Russian bread we get in the Brighton area is the best she has ever tasted, with the reason being that in Russia they tend to cheat on the ingredients (ie. skimp and pocket the difference) where they put the ingredients that they are supposed to in the USA.   We have regulations that tend to be followed here, with fairly strict food sanitation standards - while in Russia it is purely "buyer beware."  The skimping and cheating whenever possible - in all industries is rampant in Russia, which is another thing Russians have to deal with on a daily basis.  Life in Russia is rough - and Russian women feel it daily.  In the Tver region, all education is slated to be payed for in the near future ie. no more public schools.   The thought of bringing up a child in a country with virtually no safety regulations, where life is just not valued like it is in the West greatly disturbs many people in Russia - especially the thinking educated young woman who fear for their children and future family. 

Additionally, alot of we older guys have alot to offer the younger girls ie. our bodies are in great physical shape, though naturally we can not compete with ourselves 20 years younger.  My wife does bring it to my attention all the time that many Russian men at age 30 are way more aged than I am due to their hard life (poor quality food, living in a toxicologically polluted, crumbling infrastructure very stressful environment) and often their poor lifestyle (drinking excessively, smoking).   So, we might be older chronologically but are not necessarily older biologically than alot of our Russian counterparts. 

I continue to strongly feel that a guy who throws his money around in order to attract a wife will statistically end up on the short end of the stick in the long run.  Ken really hit the nail on the head with "I have witnessed a lot of other people's mistakes in this process over the last 7 years and it seems that every time a guy relies on the "welcome to America" card too much, he ultimately fails.  It is because if selling her on America is all you have to offer, then why does she need you once she has arrived?"

By the way, I am suprised with the lack of numbers in this survey?  If you are reading this thread and can contribute to the poll please do.  Of course I take full responsibility for not designing the best poll for this board.  We are limited in the polls we can execute (Dan - maybe the next version will allow higher quality poll design).  Bruno, sorry I did not make the right category for you.

[KenC]

Bruce,

I get the feeling that the results of your survey are unique to RWD.  There just seems to be a gathering here of similar type guys.  There just seems to be an abundence of guys here that didn't go the typical MOB route.  I would venture to guess that your survey would get very opposite results on RWG.

KenC