On The Way -- Sort Of

[Lily]

I will not even hold a womans hand in front of my daughter. She will turn three in a few days.
 

JR, one of the visions that brought me most happiness in my earlier days is seeing my parents friendly and warmly (without sexual undertone) kissing. I cannot describe what a happy kid I was when watching it. So pity it was a rare picture for my eyes. Nothing came close to it in terms of my happyness.

Happy parents is a sure way to happy little kids, with same kids becoming later happy people.

[XMan]

X, If there is ever a 'best of' w/r/t trip reports, I want to nominate yours for inclusion

It's like I'm there...

Very kind of you, thanks.  

Jan 21:

I find myself thinking of the inevitable -- I must leave Sunday.  So, how to make the most of the remaining time?  
Never an easy answer to that.  

The agency owner's mother-in-law stopped by first thing in the morning and cooked breakfast almost faster than I can say it, and she does a very fine job indeed.  It was sort of an open-faced fired potato, egg, some sort of ham, and cheese omelet-like thing with miniature pancakes and a strawberry-like jam on top.  The dark hot chocolate was fine.  This is the first place and time I have ever used sugar cubes.  I have led far too sheltered a life.  

Some serious incoming cold, almost cold enough to be northern MN (-20 and colder).  Generally it is remarkable how well people navigate the streets, as snow removal is hugely lacking (this applies to both streets and sidewalks).  2 nights ago I was concerned I would never make it home.  My taxi got stuck so many times I thought I would have to call the interpreter and try to explain where I was at so she could be my remote GPS and I could walk the many blocks "home."  

Speaking of taxis, I have taken a number of official and unofficial taxis in Russia and Ukraine.  
I recommend that you stick with the official ones.  Taxis are cheap ($3 to $5 for most trips), and the drivers are always surprised and appreciative of tips.  I tipped the equivalent of about $1.25, so hardly noticeable to me.  But it has never failed to please the taxi driver.  I even got the same driver a second time who remembered me and was pleasant.  

One thing I simply cannot get used to, even after multiple trips, is not having my shoes on inside the house.  It's like walking around with my zipper down.  I find it really uncomfortable.  I brought extra running shoes with me just so I can put them on after removing my street shoes.  We each have our quirks....

The LIQ stopped by late morning and we took a taxi to a rather distant but large market.  The goal was for me to find the ingredients to cook a rather early dinner.  Easy in theory.  I had to dump the idea of cooking an Italian dinner because I just could not find what was necessary.  One key ingredient -- tomato sauce.  Maybe you can find it in Kiev, but unless you have time to make it yourself from scratch (using fresh, whole tomatoes), it is hopeless.  My fall back plan became vegetable stew, since I had none of my recipes here.  Even that was a challenge, and I had to substitute some things in a rather creative fashion.  I also have never cooked on a gas stove, so I was feeling a bit tense.  She wanted to try something Italian, so we picked up a little pre-made lasagna and caneloni to go with things.  (Bizarre sidebar, at least to me -- she needed to take some cold medicine, so picked up a bottle of water, opened it, drank a bit, put it in our cart.  A security guy came over and made me pay for the bottle then, gave me a receipt, and I showed the receipt for the bottle when I left.  My gut slang reaction was dude, WTF?  But, I did as asked with a smile on face.)  

It was strange grocery shopping with woman I was not married to.  Toss in a foreign country, strange product labels, and communicating in 2 different languages, and it goes from strange to surreal.  Again, perhaps just another quirk of mine.  I remember some things from previous trips, like the best brands of juice, milk, etc.  I love cheese, but good cheese is tough to find here.  

All in all, a long trip doing something mundane, and I recommend it.  It seems like a better way to get to know someone.  

Cooking was an adventure, especially since we had a time crunch due to a solo commitment with her daughter in the evening.  She pitched in peeling potatoes and carrots.  But I can quickly see that when there is more than one cook in the kitchen, then there is too many!  

I was getting the "when I make soup I..." bit.  Finally I said, "do you want your soup or mine?"  She let me take over and hugged me from behind while I continued working.  Smart woman.    

The end result was that she really enjoyed the soup.  Although fruit in winter here is difficult to get in decent quality, I did scrounge enough to make a nice fruit salad.  The aforementioned Italian pre-made stuff I would not feed to POW's.  I think a dog, unless very hungry, would turn it down.  What the hell they did when making it I have no idea.  I wanted to make sure she understood that this is NOT how Italian food tastes, and when I make it is somewhere around 1.6 billion times better.  I should note that it is only the second time I have had bad food in Ukraine or in Russia.  

I think she was surprised that she enjoyed the soup.  
Funny.

I said I needed a few photos.  She said, "Where?  On the bed?"  I laughed, so yes, we made non-obscene crazy photos on the bed and a few with her sitting on lap (fully clothed, I should add).  It was nice.  Wish I could share some of them here.  Without her permission, it doesn't seem right.  

In the evening I spent several hours chatting with the agency owner.  Both the LIQ and I have talked to her separately throughout the trip.  The agency owner must feel either like an international ambassador at this point, or perhaps a double agent.  I guess it depends upon your viewpoint.  Both the LIQ and I are very careful after the first couple of days, moving cautiously, wondering at times what the other is really thinking, etc.  Right now I have no idea what will happen next.  This is not a teenage, pierced through the heart, cannot live without each other scenario.  I'm trying not to get overwhelmed by the physicality of certain things, but I'm not a robot either.  I just don't want to be the guy that someone settles for.  That just doesn't cut it for me.  I think that's my biggest concern.  I mean, who does want to be the guy that someone settles for?  No one in his right mind does.  

Things swung wildly hot and cold early on, and as I wrote previously, I was ready to pull the plug.  It wasn't an attempt to manipulate her, it was just me thinking "cut my losses" and don't waste any more time.  That jolt at least got things moving in some sort of direction.  

As I am writing this it is mid-morning and a light snow is falling yet again.  The entire city is blanketed.  It is beautiful but very cold.  I again strongly recommend visiting in the other 3 seasons.  But it is a unique viewpoint, and watching babushkas in their big coats and the guys in those infamous hats makes me think of the FSU as it was the SU when I was growing up, because that was the mental picture I had -- cold, snow, bleak, lines for toilet paper, lots of vodka (OK, at least one thing hasn't changed) and other propaganda-related things.  

So what next?  
Wish I knew.  
At the very least, a hearty breakfast.  

Da Zaftra.

[XMan]

One funny bit I left out. 

We've been sending each other text messages at times.  I left her apartment one evening and I sent a message a while later that said, in part, "I really enjoyed seeing all your photos."  This was translated into, "I satisfied myself while looking at all your photos."  It's hysterical now, but not quite so at the time it happened. 

[Shadow]

Speaking of taxis, I have taken a number of official and unofficial taxis in Russia and Ukraine.  
I recommend that you stick with the official ones.  Taxis are cheap ($3 to $5 for most trips), and the drivers are always surprised and appreciative of tips.  I tipped the equivalent of about $1.25, so hardly noticeable to me.  But it has never failed to please the taxi driver.  I even got the same driver a second time who remembered me and was pleasant.  

When alone or with limited knowledge of the language and the area, take official ones. You will pay more, but they will probably get you where you want to go.
When accompanied by a RW, keep your mouth shut and let her get the ride. It wil save you ,ad she will know which guys to take and which to avoid.

[XMan]

Jan 22:

(It is morning on the 23rd now.)  I hate the last day.  I'm tense about travel, packing, finding a way to print a boarding pass, blah blah blah.  Makes it tough to enjoy the day.

Yesterday had some nice alone time while watching a movie in Russian with English subtitles.  The most relaxed she has seemed, and the most trusting.  It was warm, pleasant, and had an impact greater than it probably should have. 

We talked seriously afterward, though we had to have help with some online translation for parts of things, which turned out to be less awkward than I thought. 

I never really liked the phrase "one week wonder," but I do wonder how those folks are successful (some are, at least).  My trip is 12 days and I just feel we are really starting to get comfortable and get to know each other better, and then I have to leave.  The really serious talk -- is her interest as strong as mine, how do we move forward if at all -- will be this afternoon.  And when I say move forward, I mean do we commit to seeing only each other, how and when do we meet again, timeline, etc.  I'm just hoping for honest, sincere discussion. 

I don't want to be the guy that somebody settles for.  I think that is my biggest concern, and it is what comes to mind when I think of the disappointments in her past.  Who would not want "stable" after two disasters?  Makes sense.  But am I projecting?  Does she really feel that way?  There was one thing she said, and considering the communication issues who knows if I am even reading it correctly, that stuck with me.  "I really want a good father for Sasha, and I know you can be that."  Well, there is no doubt in my mind about that.  But then I start thinking, is that the primary reason?  The only reason?  Just a compliment? 

Part of the time she has had a force field around her.  I think that is the best term for it.  Yesterday the force field was completely down for the day.  She was a different person then.  Strangely, when things were unpredictable and hot cold, and I was ready for the towel throwing ritual, she was concerned I was going to meet other women.  I thought, why be concerned about that if you aren't that interested anyway?  I mean, frankly, that's the kind of f-ed up AW behavior from my last relationship that I do not need.  It's not my goal to be aloof so a woman stays interested out of jealousy / fear.  What the hell good is that.  But, it could be that she feared I would give up before she felt comfortable and we would lose out on a good thing.  Like I have a clue when it comes to women, even after years of experience. 

I don't want to rationalize things.  Nor do I want to be paranoid and talk myself out of something.  Someone tell me how to walk that fine line and I'll do it. 

Many of the positives, such as: 
taking off from work without pay to meet me, yet never requesting financial help
having steady jobs and decent living conditions with parents who are doing well financially
wanting to see me every day as much as possible
wanting me to meet her parents almost right away

contribute to making me think it is a good thing.

But her distance (especially at first), lack of trust (I think I would call it that), reserved if not defensive behavior, have me wondering about being the guy she is settling for.  Maybe after 4 years in this agency she is just tired of it.  Maybe it's the biological clock ticking (let's face it, neither of us are getting any younger or prettier, and she wants another child).  Maybe I cannot accept the fact that this could really be good so I don't want to trust it myself.  If she was a "marry the first guy with any $$$ from a foreign country" girl, she had opportunities.  From what the agency folks are telling me, she had a number of introductory dates but did not want to see them with follow ups.  Perhaps a positive sign.  And maybe a woman doesn't want to lay against you for 2 hours on the couch and want your arms wrapped around her if she isn't really interested. 

I think it was Kevin Costner in Bull Durham who said, "you think too much, Meat."

Was hoping that airing out these thoughts would be beneficial.  I don't know. 

So back to our regularly scheduled program. 

Had late lunch with the leftover soup and a few other things I prepared.  It was nice.  Talked some more, watched part of another movie, then went to the best restaurant I have been to -- a new one called "Aristocrat."  Highly recommended if you are ever in Chernovtsy.      Beautiful place, dinner was about $25 per person for some really good and creative food, including the baked, spiced pears and ice cream.  She wanted to take some photos in the restaurant, so we did.  Interestingly, they were preparing a large hall there for a wedding for the next day, and she wanted a few photos in that room.  We danced a bit later, and I have to say that was the best part of the evening.  Who wouldn't want to dance with someone who wanted to be held close.  Blond in black.  Hard to beat. 

Thought about this a lot last night when I slept little.  I had ample time as I paced and looked out across the balcony at the snow covered rooftops of dimly lit homes and apartment buildings on the hillside.  To be completely honest, which is pretty much my mantra, I am hosed beyond redemption if she is not as serious as I am.  Nothing is written in stone, but I am pretty much done with search, regardless how it ends. 

Of course, no one really knows me or all the details of my life.  Nor would anyone care to.  So my decisions at times may seem odd (to put it kindly).  For the guys who can say "I'll do it as long as it takes," I admire you, hope that is true, and that it doesn't actually take all that long afterall.  For me it's been akin to running a series of marathons.  I just don't want to do it anymore, especially if I haven't figured out what it takes to succeed by this point.  Because if I haven't, I am never going to have the insight as to what it does actually take. 

And I am completely disenchanted with American women.  (Sorry JR, no interest in going gay either.   :evil:)  So winding up being the crazy old man at the end of the street with a pet tortoise, a funny hat, suspenders, and who yells at the kids when they step on the lawn could be my future.   

So on that note....
I have girded my loins for battle.
Onward.

[Gylden]

XMan,
From reading your posts, you sound like a really reasonable man, you also sound like one who is quite analytical, which can be very good at times. My only advice (and man it is not so good to give advice sometimes) would be to try not to over analyze when it comes to matters of the heart. Rely on your intuition, for the most. You are the best person to know the answers to those questions and to know the chemistry between you two. As far as her thinking about her child in this endeavor, IMO it is a good sign, as it shows she is taking her responsibilities as a parent seriously.
No one can read minds, so there is allways some risk, we just do the best we can. Take some deep breaths and try to find more energy, as it seems you are exhausted with the emotional side. You will need plenty more energy if you pursue this further. As many members have said and it is true, there is plenty more work to be done.

Good luck and Best wishes!
 

[boaterguy]

Xman..this lady sounds like my wife on my 1st visit to meet her. She had also been done wrong by a few...was even in England on a fiancee visa. My wife had also been in the agency scene around 4 years. How did I know my wife was really interested in me on my 1st trip? She will not admit it but little hints of jealousy showed. We were together for 2 weeks on my 1st trip. Another thing that showed me she was interested was due to a misunderstanding. She somehow got the impression that I would not like to meet her family! Almost blew our meeting 1/2 way through!

My wife didn't really relax and start opening up to me til my 2nd trip. Every woman is different and most here would not have had the patience to persue a relationship with my wife. I think you might be in the same boat...albiet a little more complicated because there is a child envolved in your senario.

I wish you the best of luck and thoroughly enjoyed your trip report!

[LEGAL]

Xman I echo Gylden's post. Please keep us posted and I have  enjoyed your TR which has triggered some good memories.

Good luck 

[Lily]

One thing I simply cannot get used to, even after multiple trips, is not having my shoes on inside the house.  It's like walking around with my zipper down.  

 

A hilarious comparison!

I'd say that for a Russian having her shoes on inside the house would be akin to taking a shower with a hat on

[XMan]

Very funny, Lily.   

Thanks Boaterguy.

So, right now I've been up 24 hours and am waiting to see if my last flight actually flies or not (weather issues). 

Staying overnight in Amsterdam was a trip.  One weird bit was having to stick the room keycard into a slot right as you enter, where it locks in place.  If you don't do that, none of the power in the room turns on.  So you leave that keycard in that slot all the time you are in the room, and then yank it when you leave.  Odd.  Interesting. 

I must say, it has to be my black leather trench coat.  I didn't get the 3rd degree today in security. I got the 11th degree.  Where did you stay in Ukraine?  With whom?  Why?  Who had access to your luggage?  You have a lot of electronica.  What do you do with it?  The urge to be a smartass grows exponentially per minute of inquisition.  Difficult to squelch.  This went on for 15 minutes, I'm not kidding.  ANd I've never even had a parking ticket. 

Anyway, the flight itself from Amsterdam was pleasant.  So that's something. 

When I left on the 24th I had to stay 8 hours in the Kiev airport.  It was FREEZING cold in the airport.  Freezing. 

So, very late, I discovered a new 2nd floor restaurant in the International terminal.  FREE wireless, good food, and heated. And it's not like a smokestack (as the Internet cafe is).  I strongly recommend it.  You can hang out there for an extended period and be comfortable.  It's up the stairs across the way from the smoky Internet cafe. 

OK, backup now. 

Jan 23:

In the morning I walked around Chernovtsy looking for jewelry stores.  There are many if you look in the right place.  Freezing cold, about -20c.  I wanted to find earrings, which I did, and which I think she liked.  To my surprise, she was shopping for me.  So we surprised each other when she came over around lunchtime.  We talked, watched part of a movie together, talked some more, and went to a restaurant neither of us had been to before.  I had the agency owner join us for that.  It was a traditional Ukrainian place.  For quite some time we were the only ones there.  I requested they change the synth pop music to traditional Ukrainian, which they did, and the LIQ and agency owner joined in singing with some of the songs, and explained to me in general what each one was about.  One particularly funny one (apparently) is about a guy who meets an old flame years later, but is singing about how unattractive she is now.  Ouch. 

Took a few fun photos.  Anytime she wants to sit on my lap, I'm game. 

There were several pumpkins there as decoration next to the fireplace.  She said she would not give me a pumpkin.  For those of you who don't already know, that is apparently an old tradition when a woman rejects a man's proposal.  Well, good to know. 

She again was much more comfortable, and I felt it was a terrible shame that I could not stay another week.  A true misfortune.  The time and distance makes me wonder if we will lose the ground we gained.  Hard to say. 

We had wine, which was a good Georgian wine.  Took a taxi back and she wanted to stay for a while.  She had to get up early because she had 4 beauty clients starting early in the morning.  She originally planned to see me off on my early flight, but a bride requested she come early.  She called me at 2:12 in the morning to apologize.  (She stayed far too late.)  I slept about 2.5 hours, so you can imagine the fun travel day I had on the 24th.  But it was worth staying up late.  We talked a long time and laughed, even though I was stressed about leaving.  She was warm, soft, and pleasant to be next to.  I know.  It's cheesey. 

Almost forgot.  Earlier in the day she wanted me to take photos. 
OK. 
She wanted "sexy photos."  What exactly was that going to be, was the question in my mind.  I was happy to oblige. 
Anyway, she remained nearly entirely clothed (sorry JR).  (I seem to be picking on JR a lot.)  She takes a good picture, no question of that.  It was funny part of the time.  So we both had a laugh out of it.  BUt several photos were indeed incredibly sexy, and several just beautiful to look at. 

There are times I forget that there is actually a significant, but not ridiculous, difference in our ages.  Whatever. 
Can't remember if I wrote this already, but apparently she had told her father she was bringing an "older man by to meet them."  He was talking me and said, "I expected a man with gray hair and a cane.  You look 35 not 47!"  (That's close if not verbatim)  Yeah, well, body-wise, sure.  I think the years are difficult to hide in one's face, however.  I guess compared to some Russian / Ukrainian guys my age, I do look a helluva lot younger.  Funny regardless. 
 
Have received several e-mails from her since I left.  SHe is signing using a form of her name that is supposed to be sort of a term of endearment, or closeness, or something.  I'm not really clear how that works.  Perhaps someone can enlighten me. 

Part of me really wants to post a couple of photos.  But I am not sure how to explain to her what this forum is exactly.  I don't want to upset the applecart at this juncture.  But, if I get the go ahead later, I may add a few here.

So. 

I feel like there is more to say.  I may add later. 
Off to do what I do best -- wait endlessly in airports.  Remember, I left Chernovtsy at 8:00 a.m. on the 24th (Chernovtsy time).  I will get home at 7:00 a.m. (supposedly) on the 26th Chernovtsy time. 

[JR]

JR, one of the visions that brought me most happiness in my earlier days is seeing my parents friendly and warmly (without sexual undertone) kissing. I cannot describe what a happy kid I was when watching it. So pity it was a rare picture for my eyes. Nothing came close to it in terms of my happyness.

Happy parents is a sure way to happy little kids, with same kids becoming later happy people.

Yes Lily, when married or when the relationship looks like it's going somewhere. Not when it is one person after another...

[RussianWind]

One weird bit was having to stick the room keycard into a slot right as you enter, where it locks in place.  If you don't do that, none of the power in the room turns on.  So you leave that keycard in that slot all the time you are in the room, and then yank it when you leave.  Odd.  Interesting. 

I thought it was pretty common in European hotels.

[SANDRO43]

I thought it was pretty common in European hotels.

Depends on the hotel's age, this power-conservation arrangement is hard to set up if it still uses traditional keys rather than cards, as many still do .

[tim 360]

XMan,  Great trip report!

[JR]

I know I have a high pickability factor so it's ok to bag on me

One word of advice. Take the leash off our heart. You've got a good woman in front of you. Stop over thinking and start going with the flow. Do you want to move forward? Then move forward, she will move with you.

[XMan]

I know I have a high pickability factor so it's ok to bag on me

One word of advice. Take the leash off our heart. You've got a good woman in front of you. Stop over thinking and start going with the flow. Do you want to move forward? Then move forward, she will move with you.

Not so much that you have a "high pickability factor," but you do have a good sense of humor and take it in stride.   

Concerning the serious bit above, point taken.
 
We are in daily, direct communication since I left. Things seem to be going well.  She is starting 3 day per week English lessons (though she has some ability already).  I am hearing many positive things, and she has put her profile (on a couple of sites) on "hold," if you will.  I like her honesty about being optimistic but uncertain and wanting to meet again somewhere, somehow, at the earliest time.  (3 months is probably the earliest I can manage.) 

I am forcing myself to study Russian 30 minutes per day to hopefully improve my very basic skills at least another small notch or two.  Using Pimsleur.  There may be something better, I don't know.  I have a wide range of skills, but near zero native ability with foreign language.  I would rather dig ditches than study Russian.  It is a grit my teeth scenario. 

So, I decided I would send flowers, wanted them delivered tomorrow.  I've always liked carnations and wanted to send some.  They are nice and really last a long time.  The agency owner said, "definitely not, that is a man's flower," which was news to me, but I'm going with something else, so whatever works.  But then, so was when I was whistling "Please Please Me" in the apartment one afternoon and the agency owner said, "don't whistle in the house or we won't have any money."  Uh, OK.  Talk about some crazy superstitions.