New Guy needs help--RussianUkraine babes for real?

[docetae]

Yes, I should've visited her in her smokey town, but instead I sent her money for
her train to Kiev.  Sending her money wasn't a problem. After three months of
corresponding, I knew I could trust her with the train fare.

I just checked aerosvit website and you can get internal flight for less than 60$ ... so why not doing the travel yourself ? In one other case, I get a woman who does not want to meet me in her town and asked to meet me in Kiev instead... red flag for me.

[Jumper]

While i certainly would recommend anyone follow the
tablets of stone.. to the LETTER.

I wouldnt have much of an issue with sending REASONABLE money for travel within the country for a RW  to meet you, if you simply cannot meet her in her home city
(which is prefered )


I/O
 My grandfather used to say

"lend a man 5$ and if you never see him again, it was money well spent"   

lets not make a mountain from a molehill
or a elephant from a fly ? (more russian version)

$20 is NOT a grand to most men in this process..
and if i sent a RW that much for travel  and she dint show up..
 well then IMHO that was $20 VERY well spent...

seeing how most men will pay an agency $20 for a meeting with a RW anyway,,
who could be anything from a pro dater to a sincere sweetheart.

while your point is quite valid,,
to not  risk money needlesly

anything can be taken beyond reason..

not one person here is suggesting sending her a grand to get
from kharkov to kiev for heavens sakes..

yes most RW can get the train/travel  fare themselves.

and your  hard line, is a safe line.

but really, as my grandfather said, ,on such an amount
i would personally consider it priceless information about her character if she failed to show  over the train fare..

as even a DECENT scammer would likely have higher goals in mind than that..,.. .

LOL if you get taken for 20 bucks in that way ,,
you just found yourself a very unimaginitive and lazy scammer ,not willing to meet you to take a better shot at a larger gift or two.. 


all that said,
 I do think most RW will find a way to meet you if they are sincerely interested..
thats been my experience.

i just felt that topic got blown out of porportion a bit.
 

[I/O]

AJ Re your grandfather's remark.  There is several people around my office this afternoon that I would happily pay much more than $5 for the privilige of never seeing them again.

Yes of course I over stated the case.  Have I sent money to someone I havn't met? My record is hung up there in other threads for all to see.  None of that is the point.

Most freshman havn't a clue who is who in the zoo and for experienced people to be effectively advocating sending money at all beggers belief. 

Here is the human factor.  Tell a person to take two painkilling pills per day and he will take four.  Tell him to send $20 and he'll send $50.  If she has 20 of them on the go at one time, she'll not have a bad little living in some FSU locations.  Throw in the odd big hit out of that and she is riding high.  Get my point?  Anyone who thinks some of the scammers are not reading these boards is hmmmmmmm no I won't go there. 

Any influence which may cause someone to send money is feeding the leaches in some form or another.  Sure it is only a few $ to you and I but it is simply breeding the habit.  If nobody sent money, the online scamming business dies today. Period.

I well understand the points you make, but what about those who simply don't understand.  Probably they shouldn't be in this anyway, but they are.  What is being preached here?  Send money or not send money? 

I/O

[Michelangelo]

I wouldnt have much of an issue with sending REASONABLE money for travel within the country for a RW  to meet you, if you simply cannot meet her in her home city

I agree with AJ...better to spend the small bucks. 

I say better to be stranded in Kiev instead of her home town.  After all, in Kiev there is lots to do in case she does not show.  Go for it, man!

I/O...better to think of oneself and not worry about "feeding the fish"

[I/O]

I/O...better to think of oneself and not worry about "feeding the fish"

If this policy was adopted uniformally then the only thing we would ever see on RWD is questions.

I/O

[Turboguy]

This is not something I have done a lot of one way or the other.   To me it seems like you can learn something just from asking.    If you ask a woman if it is possible for her to meet you in Kiev and that you will have a separate hotel or apartment for her and say you will cover her train fare.  You then add that you can reimburse her when she gets off the train or send her the money in advance. 

Here are the possible answers you can get. 

1.  I can not come to meet you because of work which lets you know you need to go there or think about how badly you each want to meet her and if it is a weekend how much she is really interested in you.

2.   I can meet you.  I can afford to pay for my own fare, which shows serious intent.

3.   I can meet you but I don't have extra money, send me $ 20.00, which is a gamble worth taking.

4.   I can meet you, but the extra hotel room is not necessary.  Send me $ 150.00  which tells you to run.

5.  I can meet you and pay my own way but the extra room would be a waste.  I will stay with you which brings some judgement and moral issues into question. 

I will agree that if she suggests meeting you someplace other than her home town that is not a good sign.  I also have to agree with what VWRW said earlier that a girl could take it as a sign of lack of interest in her.  If you really are interested in someone then you need to not let that become an issue.  There are gals who would look at it as a Holiday and enjoy it and others that might take offense.

[ScottinCrimea]

     I came a bit late to this thread but have been quite amused at many of the comments.  I discussed it with my wife to get the RW's perspective so for what it's worth, I'll share our opinion.  Most of what I see here is men worrying about how to avoid any risk and any expense.  The idea seems to be to shift all of the risk onto the RW for fear that one of them might be a scammer.  If one has read this forum and looked for the red flags and still feels comfortable enough to come to meet a woman, then the risk should be low.  Bear in mind that these women also have red flags and just as you worry about scammers, they worry about serial daters who come here, meet many women and have a good time at the minimum expense and inconvevnience possible.  They pin their hopes on a serious man and leave empty handed.  Believe me, if it hasn't happened to them, they have heard the stories.
  Let's suppose that you follow some of the advice given here.  You decide you are coming at such and such a time.  Whether this is convenient for her or not is secondary.  You stay in Kiev and tell her she must come there to meet you and maybe she can expect reimbursement or maybe no.  So if she lives here in Simferopol, first she must arrange time off work.  Usually this means she will not be paid for this time.  If this is a very busy time for her work, she must pay someone else to take her place.  She has to pay for a roundtrip train ticket to Kiev, about $20 each way if we include clean sheets and a little food for the trip.  She takes the 17 hour overnight train trip to Kiev arriving in the morning.  Now she must find a place to clean up, change clothes and overall refresh herself because the train is no place to do this.  Next she must find a way to kill time until whatever time you have scheduled her "appointment".  She must find a way to be at her best, knowing that first impressions matter.  If things don't click she is either stuck in Kiev with no guarantee that you will keep your promise to pay or must take the next overnight train home to face embarassing questions from friends and family.  Maybe you will hand her money to reimburse for expenses when you meet her but imagine how this feels.  "Here's $20, thank you for your time, now go away."
     My wife made the comment that how the man handles this will show her much about how he will care for her in the future.  If he worries only about his convenience and expense and less about hers, this tells her much about what type of husband he will be. There is no such thing as love without risk and if you aren't willing to risk $20 up front, go find another game to play.
     Someone made the comment that if she has $1.00-$1.50 to pay for an hour of internet time she has the money to buy a train ticket.  First off, you can buy an hour of internet time at an internet cafe here for half that.  Second, the $40 roundtrip ticket represents at least 20% of her monthly income which means living on bread and tea for a week if the man doesn't come through (yes, I've seen it).  So lighten up guys and give her the benefit of the doubt.  If you haven't figured out she's a scammer by the time you are arranging to come visit her, then you deserve to lose a little money.  Call it "educational expense".

[Gator]

Scott,

 

Just in case others miss this, you wrote:

Most of what I see here is men worrying about how to avoid any risk and any expense.

Is this being a real man?  I say "No".  And RW want a real man.

[William3rd]

To all you half-men, cheapskates, pikers, and jellyfish out there-

You PAY to play. A woman gets a real good idea what life with you is going to be all about. As it was mentioned elsewhere, scammers read these boards, too. But-then so do some of the real women.

If you are not willing to do that, then get a dog. Will love you unconditionally but will occasionally be unfaithful when the mood takes them.

To all you MEN out there- If you are having her travel, then you PAY for the travel.

Otherwise, go to her town see what she is all about. If she doesnt want to accept you in her town, then find someone else who will wlecome you.

[KenC]

Scott,
Great post, dude!!!!  A lot of the time we get too wrapped up in all the risks and expenses that we have to incur with no regard to the other side of the fence.  Like all the time and money an AM spends on a failed K-1, but never consider the "costs" of the RW in the same failed K-1 for example.  Geez, she only turned her life upside down to take the chance and has to return in home in embarrassment.
KenC

[Photo Guy]

Scott (and Scott's wife)
Excellent post!

I'm surprised to see other guys with backbone supporting you here. 

Like Turbo said,  when making financial arrangements with a RW, you MUST
smooth things over - be diplomatic. Instead of following a rulebook in a rigid way,
you have to decide how much risk to take. You must learn to become familiar
with your RW and trust your instincts and be willing to gamble, to a degree.

And we're not talking about women/scammers who request large sums of money.
I'm talking about the gray areas. Scott is so right about the risks that RW take.

I can't remember who said it, maybe Fiorella- RW expect nice things from their
men. In dating, it is very prevalent to see one woman showing her friend the nice
gift that her new boyfriend had just given her. If her boyfriend is a 'rich' foreigner,
that increases her expectations. Most Westerners are considered 'rich'. So if you are
extremely tight with your money, it could discourage your new sweetheart.

You have to walk a fine line. You have to set your limits and her limits, in a way
that still shows her that you care about her. After a month of living here with me,
Larisa became a frugal shopper and was proud of the good deals she found on
clothing, etc.  I encouraged that behavior in a way that did not look 'miserly'.
RW want a 'generous' man.

It is up to you, in the early stages, to separate a Scammer from wife material.
It is an art, not an exact science. You may have a date with a fantastic woman who
thinks all Western men are 'rich'. That complicates matters for obvious reasons.
Sometimes you must say 'no' with a smile, or 'later', when she points at $300 boots in a store window.  She may not be a scammer, but someone who thinks $300 is not a lot
for a rich American. It is up to you to train her. She may have heard stories of some foreigner throwing money around. It's been known to happen.

Develop your instincts and follow them. Be more cautious about losing large sums of money versus small amounts. Common sense.

[Jumper]

Scott,
great post!

[BillyB]

Otherwise, go to her town see what she is all about. If she doesnt want to accept you in her town, then find someone else who will wlecome you.

That's good advice. In my first trip to see a FSU woman, she wanted to meet me in Novosibirsk although she lived in Novokuznesk, a smaller city. I should've insisted to visit her in her environment to see if she's willing to invite me to see her relatives. She said her city didn't have much to offer but Novosibirsk did. In my opinion Novosibirsk didn't have much to offer. DON'T BE LAZY GUYS MEETING A WOMAN IN THE MOST CONVIENT CITY FOR YOURSELF TO GET TO. GO THE EXTRA DISTANCE AND MEET HER IN HER TOWN. You're looking for a marriage minded, family oriented girl right? So that kind of woman would want you to meet her family and friends and it's the safe thing for her to do. My fiancee had two Germans invite her to Germany but she thought it would be crazy to meet men in their environment. There are risks for women to meet men in a neutral environment too. I was the only man who had guts to visit her in Uzbekistan.

I called the woman from Novokuznetsk frequently and was comfortable she was real and she enjoyed conversing with me and I with her so I purchased train tickets for her to go to Novosibirsk and Western Union'ed her money. She met me in Novosibirsk, things went well, and we commited to be exclusive with no talk of marriage. After I arrived back home, we soon began to talk about the next time we should meet. I asked her where we should meet and I was sure she was going to invite me to her city to meet her family and friends since I was her boyfriend. NO, she wanted to go to Paris. Come to find out, she didn't get along with her mom and it's quite possible she didn't want me to come to her city because she had a boyfriend. Her extreme reluctance to me visiting her in her hometown is one of the reasons I called it off. I might have saved myself a trip if only I insisted on meeting her family first. It's important to me that the woman is in a good family environment. If she doesn't get along with her parents, that's a red flag.

As far as sending $40 for train tickets, it depends and it has nothing to do with being a man or not. If a poster comes here and says a woman is willing to meet him in a nearby city and needs $50 for train tickets but he has never spoken to her on the phone, my answer to him will be an absolute "NO". If she's not willing to give him a phone number and an occasional conversation, she's not worth visiting even if she wasn't a scammer.

If a guy speaks to the woman frequently on the phone and wonders if he should send her train tickets to meet, I would say go ahead but you should visit her in her environment first.

[Vaughn]

BillyB, I'm growing fond of all your posts.

GO THE EXTRA DISTANCE AND MEET HER IN HER TOWN. You're looking for a marriage minded, family oriented girl right? So that kind of woman would want you to meet her family and friends and it's the safe thing for her to do.

As I see it, solid advice. Face time in her kitchen showed me more
about her than anyplace else...

It's important to me that the woman is in a good family environment. If she doesn't get along with her parents, that's a red flag.

BillyB, I wish I had listened to your advice before I married my
second wife. Enough said, it's history, thank God.

Went to a dinner party last night at which were 5 FSU women.
The hostess hails from Kazakhstan, another from Kryzgyzstan,
another from a true village of 400 outside of Novgorod, my wife
from Yoshkar Ola, and a lady from St Petersburg. All were dressed
very fashionably, lively conversation, dancing, jokes, plenty of authentic Russian food. Ignoring their areas of origin, their differences in level of culture and experience were not so apparent.


Whooops - that's a different thread. My apology.

[KenC]

Scott (and Scott's wife)
Excellent post!

I'm surprised to see other guys with backbone supporting you here. 

Like Turbo said,  when making financial arrangements with a RW, you MUST
smooth things over - be diplomatic. Instead of following a rulebook in a rigid way,
you have to decide how much risk to take. You must learn to become familiar
with your RW and trust your instincts and be willing to gamble, to a degree.

And we're not talking about women/scammers who request large sums of money.
I'm talking about the gray areas. Scott is so right about the risks that RW take.

I can't remember who said it, maybe Fiorella- RW expect nice things from their
men. In dating, it is very prevalent to see one woman showing her friend the nice
gift that her new boyfriend had just given her. If her boyfriend is a 'rich' foreigner,
that increases her expectations. Most Westerners are considered 'rich'. So if you are
extremely tight with your money, it could discourage your new sweetheart.
You have to walk a fine line. You have to set your limits and her limits, in a way
that still shows her that you care about her. After a month of living here with me,
Larisa became a frugal shopper and was proud of the good deals she found on
clothing, etc.  I encouraged that behavior in a way that did not look 'miserly'.
RW want a 'generous' man.

It is up to you, in the early stages, to separate a Scammer from wife material.
It is an art, not an exact science. You may have a date with a fantastic woman who
thinks all Western men are 'rich'. That complicates matters for obvious reasons.
Sometimes you must say 'no' with a smile, or 'later', when she points at $300 boots in a store window.  She may not be a scammer, but someone who thinks $300 is not a lot
for a rich American. It is up to you to train her. She may have heard stories of some foreigner throwing money around. It's been known to happen.

Develop your instincts and follow them. Be more cautious about losing large sums of money versus small amounts. Common sense.

Photo,
Very good post too.  Don't quite understand your "men with backbone" statement, but whatever.  It is difficult to encourage newbies to go ahead and spend their money against the "rules" such as they are, because many would use this advice to start throwing money around like a drunk sailor.  "Never send money to a woman you have never met" is still good advice, but it is really just a starting point.  Like as in any travel expense incurred by the RW should be prepaid by the man.  How he has to accomplish that or the risk involved in doing so is his problem.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

The first time I came to meet my wife I arranged to spend 3-4 days in her home town before going to the coast for a few days.  She insisted that I change my reservations after I came and we went immediately to the coast.  I didn't meet her parents or any of her friends.  It was only at my insistence that she invited me to her home the last day I was there.  All of this sounds like a bunch of red flags, and all of this bothered me for quite some time, but later I learned why.  She really felt that there was not so much to do in her home town and thought I would have a more enjoyable time on the coast.  She was thinking about my needs.  Her home at the time was pretty shabby and she was embarassed for me to see it.  She didn't want me to meet her friends because she was afraid they would try to take me away from her and at the time I was there.  I've seen since that it isn't really typical to bring a new boyfriend or girlfriend around to meet everyone until deep into the relationship.  We have one friend who's boyfriend I didn't meet for a very only time and I have only met him one time since.  At the time I was there, my wife was having an arguement with her mother over something and they weren't speaking, even though usually they get along great, so she avoided taking me there.  So guys, remember again that there are cultural differences and don't attach Western meanings to all of her actions or be quick to assume bad intent where there is none.  Remember, we love them specifically because they don't think like AM's.

[Photo Guy]

Thanks Ken, you wrote:
Very good post too.  Don't quite understand your "men with backbone" statement, but whatever.

Ken, I was referring to William's 'jellyfish' comment, and his 'Pay to play' idea.

[Stirlitz]

I think it is important to visit the gal and meet her family but I don't think it is important for it to be during the first and early stages of getting to know someone.

There is also another issue. Women are uncomfortable with you meeting others. Whether or not they make it an issue is another question, but I don’t think it is a good idea to highlight it by bringing them to Kiev. When you are coming to their home town they know you are coming to see them… perhaps someone else there. When you are lining them up in Kiev they realize what’s going on…

But everyone has one’s own way and sometimes it works out for them better than you might expect.

[Kuna]

There is also another issue. Women are uncomfortable with you meeting others. Whether or not they make it an issue is another question, but I don’t think it is a good idea to highlight it by bringing them to Kiev. When you are coming to their home town they know you are coming to see them… perhaps someone else there. When you are lining them up in Kiev they realize what’s going on…

But everyone has one’s own way and sometimes it works out for them better than you might expect.

I've put a lot of thought into this because I've HAD to.  I could strike out with all three girls on my trip if things go badly (on the topic of meeting others) but I've decided on my response if it comes up.

1.  The newsreader knows I'm meeting others and says she doesn't like it because I "MUST be spending more time with the others than I am with her and you'll have more time to get to like them than you will with me".  I have not talked about the amount of time with others but I have told her I am serious about my intentions and if she is too, we'll meet (I've left her the option of not meeting but she says she wants to... she just wants more time together). If we want more then WE can decided to have more, either at the end of my trip or in July. I've explained that this is the Internet and we'll only know the truth when we meet!

2. The other two girls don't specifically know about the others BUT they've never asked a direct question, and I've just not raised it.  Both have felt me out with comments at times but I've not become engaged in those discussions. BOTH have tried to extend the time we're sharing together but in both cases I've told them my schedule is tight and I'm thrilled we'll get the amount of time together that we've already planned.

All three girls know this... I'm in Ukraine for a limited time on this trip but if I find a connection with a girl (I've used those words) then I will make sure she knows.  If she feels the same then I will return in July and we'll spend a month together.

I've been pragmatic because I see little point in sugar-coating it too much if that's not the way I am in real life.

In my relationships I will always consider my partner first BUT sometimes I (or we, as a couple) will have to make tough decisions.

I have friends at home that are experts at sugar-coating reality but I think it's foolish unless you're prepared and capable of continuing that for the rest of your life.

If my reality means I am not suitable for a FSUW I'll be glad to know it before making a long term commitment.

WMVM is definitely tough to manage... but we'll know if it can work within a month.   

Kuna

[Turboguy]

There are tons of internet cafe's in Ukraine Kuna so don't leave us hanging on the edge of our chairs for a month.   I think you will do just fine but I have a feeling you will be glad you did not do a WOVO when it is over.  Good luck.

[ScottinCrimea]

Kuna,
     I think you have provided the best example of how to do the WMVM thing correctly.  Whether it works for you or not will certainly not be because you didn't think things through.  I wish you the best of luck and hope you will keep us updated.

[Rvrwind]

New Guy needs help--RussianUkraine babes for real?

Naww, your just dreamin', go back to sleep.

[Stirlitz]

WMVM is definitely tough to manage

but it’s worth it.