Georgia- what did we learn from this conflict ?

[msmoby_ru]

In the Dutch media the quote is that his death was linked to Russian Cluster munition.
Somehow the explicitness of this rocket being used only by Russia managed to get in to the translation.

See the Storimans report for your neutral reporters.

Sorry, Shadow, I can't agree with your explanation... There is lot's of similar quoting of the Dutch Coroner's comments - *specifically*  with reference to Russians being the only "side" to have had access to this particular cluster bomb..

Now I know Wiki should be used with caution.. but as it is includes numerous references ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans

Chemical weapons were used in vietnam and Iraq.
Nuclear weapons were used in WWII.
Things like the MOAB, FOAB, uranium enriched munition and cluster bombs are produced not to use the forms that already produce a negative image. The effect is similar, mass destruction or grave injuries to those that are hit by it.

Yes, Shadow, but Nuclear weapons haven';t been used in 63 years, and democracies haven't used chemical weapons for 35-40 years... sure it is sort of strange to "ban" one type of indiscriminate killing process, but not another...

[msmoby_ru]

IIRC there was a plea to keep things on topic, not start another

Well.. the specific comment was here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8463.msg154650#msg154650


is refereal to OlgaH posting this:http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8463.msg154585#msg154585

If you think it was more "polite" to ignore Utrobina and continue on regardless ......  *I* thought it was the correct thing to try and do...

with a callout to Olga (happily she did not bite).  If I missed something please post a link to your last remarks in that thread.

Olga doesn't bite as when her posting of "questionable" sources, to make a point is queried, in a reasonable way - she accuses the poster of "lying" or "editing posts" .. and on her very own board she posted the same "propaganda" and doesn't allow anyone to comment on it...   Olga doesn't want to "debate" with someone who might burst her bubble - IMHO.. far easier to label them "rude" and "ignore 'em ))

Your initial post was quite good and I responded in kind... went downhill from there into that same ol 'finger pointing' ctrap leading to nowhere soon.

Review http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8471.msg154678#msg154678 and let me know anything productive said therein.

As to debate, is there anything in this thread (other than your first post here) that was not completely covered in the last?  If so, lets concentrate on that point instead of throwing out buckets of stinky chum.

Well, I reviewed it as requested and if you think I'm "Putin bashing" - when I'm trying to demonstrate dodgy reporting ...

Wasn't the Dutch inquiry new ?

Personally, I just thought it was better to start a new thread than to "pollute" the thread about Moscow ..   

Now, I notice that Legal has misguidedly waded in on his White Stallion and "tried" to "help" Olga.... I will try to invite him here, again, as he has just dug a deeper hole for his lady..

[BC]

Well.. the specific comment was here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8463.msg154650#msg154650


is refereal to OlgaH posting this:http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8463.msg154585#msg154585

If you think it was more "polite" to ignore Utrobina and continue on regardless ......  *I* thought it was the correct thing to try and do...

Olga doesn't bite as when her posting of "questionable" sources, to make a point is queried, in a reasonable way - she accuses the poster of "lying" or "editing posts" .. and on her very own board she posted the same "propaganda" and doesn't allow anyone to comment on it...   Olga doesn't want to "debate" with someone who might burst her bubble - IMHO.. far easier to label them "rude" and "ignore 'em ))

Well, I reviewed it as requested and if you think I'm "Putin bashing" - when I'm trying to demonstrate dodgy reporting ...

Wasn't the Dutch inquiry new ?

Personally, I just thought it was better to start a new thread than to "pollute" the thread about Moscow ..   

Now, I notice that Legal has misguidedly waded in on his White Stallion and "tried" to "help" Olga.... I will try to invite him here, again, as he has just dug a deeper hole for his lady..

Try http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8463.msg154670#msg154670

Clearly a 'callout' to Olga.. - and now complain that she doesn't want to play?  Just as your last sentence in this post.

It's about time you chuck that chip on your shoulder and move on to productive discourse.

Sorry, I don't have time to analise (gawd love that word) the rest of your comments.. If that makes me wrong, beat, inaccurate, without knowledge, of wrong opin, obtuse, too scared to discuss, or whatever in your book as far as Georgia is concerned then so be it - no skin off my butt.

[msmoby_ru]

It's about time you chuck that chip on your shoulder and move on to productive discourse.

Sorry, I don't have time to analise (gawd love that word) the rest of your comments.. If that makes me wrong, beat, inaccurate, without knowledge, of wrong opin, obtuse, too scared to discuss, or whatever in your book as far as Georgia is concerned then so be it - no skin off my butt.

Dear BC,

It is interesting that you chose to ignore three points and persist with the "Olga baiting theory"..

If you chose not to debate Georgia, that's your business .. *I* thought you just wanted an argument

For those of us who ARE interested in discussing the "Russian Front" - and how it has ben a little too forward in it's neighbour's terretory

http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/08/22/georgia-dispatches-inside-gori/

An interesting perspective from within Gori under Russian occupation.. nothing there can can be proven or disproven, other than it being clear that the Russians didn't have a coherent stagegy to deal with journos.. Some soldiers wouldn't let 'em anywhere near Gori - or to film - yet in the end the journalist gets in and reports the town largely undamaged.

[BC]

Dear BC,

It is interesting that you chose to ignore three points and persist with the "Olga baiting theory"..

If you chose not to debate Georgia, that's your business .. *I* thought you just wanted an argument

For those of us who ARE interested in discussing the "Russian Front" - and how it has ben a little too forward in it's neighbour's terretory

http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/08/22/georgia-dispatches-inside-gori/

An interesting perspective from within Gori under Russian occupation.. nothing there can can be proven or disproven, other than it being clear that the Russians didn't have a coherent stagegy to deal with journos.. Some soldiers wouldn't let 'em anywhere near Gori - or to film - yet in the end the journalist gets in and reports the town largely undamaged.

IIRC, RU left Gori a week or two ago..  According to Georgian officials while the conflict was hot, there should only be rubble left.

Thanks for getting back on (your own) topic.

[msmoby_ru]

IIRC, RU left Gori a week or two ago.. 

According to Georgian officials while the conflict was hot, there should only be rubble left.

1/ like they should have been there at all

2/ and they promised to leave a LONG time ago, and many times..

3/ YUP... and I note you  don't mention the raping or destruction in the villages..

Thanks for getting back on (your own) topic.

Not just my topic.. but you know that, really ..

[BC]

1/ like they should have been there at all

Why not? precedents abound.

2/ and they promised to leave a LONG time ago, and many times..

.. on their terms, the same that Condi is trying to draw up in Iraq.

3/ YUP... and I note you  don't mention the raping or destruction in the villages..

War is hell.. not justification.

[msmoby_ru]

some other news from inside Georgia near where the Russians have drawn their line..according to an ethnic Russian living there, still.

in the last two days the Cellular sites and internet access is suddenly going down - she has a north American fiancee.  

Also returning refugess are apparently being forced to take Russian passports ... Hmmm aren't Abkhazia and S.Ossetia "independent" ?


http://euobserver.com/9/26993

[msmoby_ru]

Why not? precedents abound.

Do you mean the US in Iraq..?

.. on their terms, the same that Condi is trying to draw up in Iraq.

Ah yes, you *did* - comparing "apples with oranges", now ?! 

One was a despotic led state,  t'other is a Democracy

War is hell.. not justification.

so one minute you are pointing out the Georgians made too much fuss about the destruction of Gori, and the next you might be defending a pretty despicable subjugation, beyond prying eyes ... :-o ?! 

This is the 21st century, for "Gawd's sake" ..   All this could so easily have been avoided .

[BC]

This is the 21st century, for "Gawd's sake" ..   All this could so easily have been avoided .

Indeed.  Condi and Bush warned well beforehand.

[BC]

One was a despotic led state,  t'other is a Democracy

Is Iraq not now Democratic?

[BC]

Do you mean the US in Iraq..?

As I say, they abound..  Try Panama for one.

[msmoby_ru]

As I say, they abound..  Try Panama for one.

Are you referring to the removal of a despotic drug baron by playing loud music ?

[Shadow]

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/georgias-propag.html#more

    In some 40 appearances in the Western media and at Western think tanks, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and his ministers made numerous statements in their effort to convince the West that it was obliged to defend Tbilisi from Russia's incursion.

Their major themes, according to Hahn:

    * Russia planned the war and attacked first.

In fact, Hahn contends, "both sides planned for war as a contingency. They both held maneuvers in late July, used them to move forces and equipment near (Russian) or into (Georgian) the conflict zone."

    * Russia ignored Georgia's attempts at a diplomatic solution.

But during a televised address in Georgia, Hahn writes, Saakashvili told his people that Georgia was "in constant contact with the leadership of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs."

    * Russia used "disproportionate" force, including 1,200 tanks.

Jane's, however, estimated the armored force at just 150, Hahn points out.

    * Russia destroyed civilian infrastructure and killed non-combatants.

Actually, many reporters saw "a very different story," according to Hahn, recalling reports of "few signs of damage by Russia."

"American support for Georgia in the present crisis is based in part on the belief that Russia is to be blame for instigating this war," Hahn concludes. "Much of this belief is founded on Saakashvili's and other Georgian officials' statements to American officials."

Statements that, if you believe Hahn, are mostly untrue.

If Hahn is right, it wouldn't be the first time Georgia has snowed the West with misinformation, according to Nathan Hamm at Registan.net. Way back in 2006, Hamm was reporting that Saakasahvili was "quite effective at selling a certain image of Georgia to the West that has enhanced Georgia’s international profile."

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/russia-used-c-2.html

HRW notes that the Russians are not the only ones with this weapon in their arsenal:

Human Rights Watch also called on Georgia, which is known to have RBK-500 cluster bombs in its stockpiles, to join the international move to ban the use of cluster munitions and publicly to undertake not to use such weapons in this conflict.

Many nations are renouncing such weapons in accordance with the Convention On Cluster Munitions to be signed this December. The UK agreed to sign up after some fierce debate. Notable abstainers from the Convention include Russia, China, Israel (which used them in 2006) and the US (which has used them in both Iraq and Afghanistan). In July the Pentagon not only re-affirmed its intent to continue using cluster bombs but also insisted that they save lives. We haven’t yet seen reports of Russia using other questionable weapons, such as their arsenal of thermobarics. But there are plenty of accounts of more low-tech atrocities.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/10/whose-cluster-b.html

UPDATE: Commenter Helena Cobban challenges the idea that the weapons shown above are Russian, referring  to a site that claims:

"The diameter of the object in the photo is only roughly half the 325 mm diameter an RBU-250 has. The fin configuration of the debris HRW shows is inconsistent with a gravity bomb, but consistent with a tube launched missile like the ones used in Georgia's GRADAL system."

This is not the view of HRW or the NDRE, but clearly the argument is not over yet.

Until the full results of the investigations are published instead of conclusions I remain to have my doubts, no matter what the Dutch press put in Wikipedia.

[msmoby_ru]

Hi Shadow,

I think Hahn's got a great knowledge of Russia and the Caucasus, but does his fellowship from St Petersburg University - The Russian one - mean he is totally objective ?


You forgot this part of the third quoted blog..

<<While the Georgians are admitting to attacks on military targets, they're not claiming those bomblets found in the village of Shindisi. Still, that's one step ahead of the Russians, who, according to HRW, aren’t admitting to using cluster bombs at all. Thousands of years after it was first noted by an ancient Greek dramatist, truth is still the first casualty of war.>>

Until the full results of the investigations are published instead of conclusions I remain to have my doubts, no matter what the Dutch press put in Wikipedia

But you originally said that this was a mistranslation of Dutch by the BBC - do you now say the Dutch press misquoted the Storimen's Cornoner's report ?

[Shadow]

Hi Shadow,

I think Hahn's got a great knowledge of Russia and the Caucasus, but does his fellowship from St Petersburg University - The Russian one - mean he is totally objective ?


You forgot this part of the third quoted blog..

<<While the Georgians are admitting to attacks on military targets, they're not claiming those bomblets found in the village of Shindisi. Still, that's one step ahead of the Russians, who, according to HRW, aren’t admitting to using cluster bombs at all. Thousands of years after it was first noted by an ancient Greek dramatist, truth is still the first casualty of war.>>

But you originally said that this was a mistranslation of Dutch by the BBC - do you now say the Dutch press misquoted the Storimen's Cornoner's report ?

At the time there was just one news source in Dutch (and not the most reputed one) quoting the statement about the Russian rocket as the BBC did.
I have read the report from the coroners commission in Dutch, and they point to a SS-26 / Iskander rocket being the cause of death.
As I have not noted any sources that Russia has sold these to Georgia, currently this seems to point to Russia as firing the rocket that caused the death.

[msmoby_ru]

...and now the BBC hears from the South Ossetians

Georgia accused of Ossetia war crimes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7692751.stm