Georgia- what did we learn from this conflict ?

[msmoby_ru]

For me..

1/ The West misread the muscle-flexing of Russia BIG TIME..

2/ Russia "hoped" Saakashvilli would retaliate to the constant provocations of the Russian "peace-keepers" who were fuelling the upsurge in violence - knowing that the US was unlikely to be able to spare the resources to get involved in a big way


3/ Russia is testing the waters re Ukraine .. making a clear statement - be "Friends" or we will protect Russian "citizens" again....

4/ There is and was a smarter way .... recognise the right of peoples to autonomy or independence.

5/ So WHAT is wrong with Russian recognising the Kosovans' rights ... or those of Chetchens?

6/ Russia's media was VERY economical with the truth and it isn't a big story when a journalist resign's from Russia Today when incriminating evidence of "military fibs" by the Kremlin come out, or when outdated sat photos are used in a weak attempt to counter violence against ethnic Georgians in the disputed regions.

7/ It's hard to have a reasoned debate with some folk who have selective memories re innocent Serbs who got bombed, because of the many more innocent Kosovo folk who were facing genocide..

8/ Lastly isn't great that, here, we can at least have our posts remain intact - we can discuss who might be "fibbing" and enjoy a healthy debate .. without the posts being deleted.

[BC]

for me:

1) Ignore all media
2) Actions (or inaction) is louder than words.
3) Seems the area is more peaceful now than at the outset. (If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it)
4) Recognition that the word 'Democracy' has lost it's shine.

[msmoby_ru]

for me:

1) Ignore all media

 if you think THAT - then the Russians really DID win something....

2) Actions (or inaction) is louder than words.

- tell that to Saskashvilli who took action and got a "bloody nose"- and "lost" even more terretory

3) Seems the area is more peaceful now than at the outset. (If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it)

- again - if you think that - you aren't "aux fait" with the bigger picture of what Russia is trying to achieve - whether her neighbours agree - or not..

4) Recognition that the word 'Democracy' has lost it's shine.

and *this* is a very "ex-Soviet" attitute - found in folk of the FSU and perhaps in Italy - where it ( regretably) seems money still does buy power...   

[BC]

Whaddaya want? another rah rah bash Putin thread?

[msmoby_ru]

Whaddaya want? another rah rah bash Putin thread?

No BC, just the truth..... I'm married to a Russian, remember..  We watch Russian TV most days ...listen to the "news" .. it doesn't take much to notice the drip , drip "nationalistic" tendencies the "avoiding" of BAD news and selective reporting...

Shouldn't ANY leader that appears to interfere with the freedom of press coverage, be "bashed" .. be it Putin, ( interesting that you mentioned him, and not Medvedev )  Bush, Blair , etc,

[BC]

No BC, just the truth..... I'm married to a Russian, remember..  We watch Russian TV most days ...listen to the "news" .. it doesn't take much to notice the drip , drip "nationalistic" tendencies the "avoiding" of BAD news and selective reporting...

Shouldn't ANY leader that appears to interfere with the freedom of press coverage, be "bashed" .. be it Putin, ( interesting that you mentioned him, and not Medvedev )  Bush, Blair , etc,

What do you want the 'beef' of this thread to be?..  I mean we did hash through it quite well last time with umpteen pages of thoughts - warmed over will not even taste as good.

You want to seek the truth? - then lets talk about some new facts.. -are there any?

I really fail to see purpose, if taken at face value.

[LEGAL]

Thank you BC very well said!

[msmoby_ru]

Thank you BC very well said!

Well, Well, Robert...


IF you were paying attention - I started this thread at the request of "Utrobina" and others - as *Olga*, brought up Georgia....  and "Utrobina" asked us not to politicise the thread... 


Will you also be saying this to "OlgaH" ?

[docetae]

What we learn from this conflct ? Never walk on a bear's foot...

[msmoby_ru]

What we learn from this conflct ? Never walk on a bear's foot...

Aha,  but *this* "Bear" wasn't in his own woods

[I/O]

What we learned is, the more things change, the more the stay the same.

I/O

[msmoby_ru]

What we learned is, the more things change, the more the stay the same.

I/O

Have you some French blood flowing through your veins: )

<<Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.>>

[kievstar]

We learned that the World does not agree on many things.  Also, people on this board do not agree.  Also, people within countries do not agree with their governments actions. 

To many lies to really make a good conclusion on who started.  But Russia did finish it but their military was exposed for being out dated.

[msmoby_ru]

We learned that the World does not agree on many things.  Also, people on this board do not agree.  Also, people within countries do not agree with their governments actions. 

To many lies to really make a good conclusion on who started.  But Russia did finish it but their military was exposed for being out dated.

Hi KS

Do you think Russia "finished" it? ! .. I think it was only the first shot across the bows of former satellite states of the SU, that they must be "friends" with Russia, not join NATO,  and a "warning" not to ignore Russia, anymore to other nations.

Russian claims they were "misunderstood" over Georgia ( Sergei Ivanov interviewed on BBC two days ago) - - that they had to protect their citizens - forgetting that those folk weren't their citizens - they made 'em "citizens" and kept the pot boiling..supplying arms to the S.Ossetians and Abkhazi's

Perhaps the HUGE drop in oil prices and the financial bail outs will curb all nations pending on "defence".

For those of us who still think Russia weren't prepared for all all this... knowing that Georgia would have to respond to all the provocation sooner or later ...

At the beginning of all this claims were made by HRW - Human Right's Watch that Russian planes were dropping cluster bombs - internationally outlawed by most countries- ( although I should point out that both Georgia and Russia refused to sign the accord back in May 2008) and their use was denied...by the Kremlin

Now we have this:

A Dutch Cameraman *was* "killed by a Russian" Cluster Bomb in Gori

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7680832.stm


"The death of Stan Storimans during the August conflict has been linked to a bomb fired by a rocket that is only used by Russia, the inquiry concluded. "

Slowly, the truth will come out.. *I* don't think the Russian Military and the Kremlin had their act co-ordinated...

[kievstar]

I think Russia finished it with Georgia.  But I also think Russia knows their military is to weak to go after a bigger country who will fight back.  Hard to say with Asia / USA going through tough times if Russia military will get stronger.  This will lower oil consumption and need for metals which will hurt Russia. Nuclear submarines Russia wants to invest in - will not win wars.  Will only start them.  Plus there are missiles which can be fired from planes to penetrate the water which make these submarines useless.  Fire 4 at a time and a submarine can not react.  So Russia will sleep for now and looks like they may go bankrupt until a new regime takes over.   

China's construction cranes stopping right now is the biggest enemy of Russia.


 

   

[BC]

ms,

I'd love to sneak up behind you one day and say 'boo!', just to see what happens.. LOL

You must really be shaken up by all this stuff..

Dug your bunker yet?

[I/O]

Have you some French blood flowing through your veins: )

Mark, I've had some serious insults thrown my way on forums, but that is the ultimate insult . The fact that I have at least one ounce of courage and I don't stink is evidence enough that I have no French blood .

I/O

[msmoby_ru]

You must really be shaken up by all this stuff..

Well, BC, YES, I am... It's not good when your wife's and your country's relations aren't great. It's even worse when you have a step-son who could be called up to fight for a "cause" he doesn't understand.

I hope you're right and I'm just being "paranoid"...  but I haven't seen anything constructive from you that I shouldn't be concerned about what will happen between UA and RU next...

[msmoby_ru]

Mark, I've had some serious insults thrown my way on forums, but that is the ultimate insult . The fact that I have at least one ounce of courage and I don't stink is evidence enough that I have no French blood .

I/O

)

[BC]

Well, BC, YES, I am... It's not good when your wife's and your country's relations aren't great. It's even worse when you have a step-son who could be called up to fight for a "cause" he doesn't understand.

I hope you're right and I'm just being "paranoid"...  but I haven't seen anything constructive from you that I shouldn't be concerned about what will happen between UA and RU next...

You sound like you're the only man here married to a RU woman and have kids.. Welcome to parenthood, which includes passing on understanding of the world around and the risk of loosing them in some far off battle even reasonable, literate adults have a hard time justifying.

If you are looking for constructive, look through the existing threads.  I'm not into repeating just for the sake of repeating.

Have you heard any words from RU leadership stating that their goals are to invade UA or otherwise incorporate it into RU using force? -or are you just voicing baseless, biased fears.

[msmoby_ru]

If you are looking for constructive, look through the existing threads.  I'm not into repeating just for the sake of repeating.

Once again, BC, I started THIS thread as OlgaH, myself and other members were asked to do so by members who reminded us what this board is mainly about... THAT is why I'm inviting you to continue here... !

You sound like you're the only man here married to a RU woman and have kids..

Er, verging on condecending to what aim ..?!

Welcome to parenthood, which includes passing on understanding of the world around and the risk of loosing them in some far off battle even reasonable, literate adults have a hard time justifying.

 It isn't "far off" to us.. We have friends in Georgia, the Causcas regions of Russia and Ukraine - they can feel increased polarisations and tensions - but the Russians mainly feel "good" about this...

Have you heard any words from RU leadership stating that their goals are to invade UA or otherwise incorporate it into RU using force? -or are you just voicing baseless, biased fears.

"Baseless, huh?" I was saying that there would be a "bun fight" in Georgia and was told just the same.. last year. 

"Biased" ) Funny, guy -not...

On this very board... one minute I'm a "Liberal" - next minute I'm "anti-Russian".. I *question* the current Russian meddling in third party countries that used to be satellites, and terrible bias in Russian media coverage... and some Western one's too.

*I* think we should recognise the two regions of Georgia as *independent* ( not part of Russia - although I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ossetia's merge ) and Russia should recognise Kosovo... now that isn't the policy of the US / UK govts.


You're going to have to revise your over-simplistic labelling of folk you can't / won't debate with

[Shadow]

Regarding the Dutch camera man, things are extremely unclear. Not only Russia used Russian weapons in this conflict.
And just FYI... not only Georgia and Russia refused to sign...the US also did not sign the agreement.

What we should learn from this and other armed conflicts is that when fighting for their lives, nobody fights fair.
Also killing is a part of war.
Lastly media coverage is never impartial and unbiased.

[msmoby_ru]

Regarding the Dutch camera man, things are extremely unclear. Not only Russia used Russian weapons in this conflict.

Nothing unclear about this statement form your country !.. "The death of Stan Storimans during the August conflict has been linked to a bomb fired by a rocket that is only used by Russia, the inquiry concluded. "

And just FYI... not only Georgia and Russia refused to sign...the US also did not sign the agreement.

Thanks, I did NOT know that...

What we should learn from this and other armed conflicts is that when fighting for their lives, nobody fights fair.
Also killing is a part of war.

May be you have a point but how often did you read of chemical or nuclear weapons being used in a war.. normally - even in war - both sides don't like to open "pandora's box"...  This is the 21st C and it appears that this sides behaved like it was the 15th C

Lastly media coverage is never impartial and unbiased.

STRONGLY disagree - there were lots of "neutral reporters" in the field and as we know atrocities and cover ups in the west don't stay hidden for long..

[Shadow]

Nothing unclear about this statement form your country !.. "The death of Stan Storimans during the August conflict has been linked to a bomb fired by a rocket that is only used by Russia, the inquiry concluded. "

In the Dutch media the quote is that his death was linked to Russian Cluster munition.
Somehow the explicitness of this rocket being used only by Russia managed to get in to the translation.

May be you have a point but how often did you read of chemical or nuclear weapons being used in a war.. normally - even in war - both sides don't like to open "pandora's box"...  This is the 21st C and it appears that this sides behaved like it was the 15th C

Chemical weapons were used in vietnam and Iraq.
Nuclear weapons were used in WWII.
Things like the MOAB, FOAB, uranium enriched munition and cluster bombs are produced not to use the forms that already produce a negative image. The effect is similar, mass destruction or grave injuries to those that are hit by it.

STRONGLY disagree - there were lots of "neutral reporters" in the field and as we know atrocities and cover ups in the west don't stay hidden for long..

See the Storimans report for your neutral reporters.

[BC]

Once again, BC, I started THIS thread as OlgaH, myself and other members were asked to do so by members who reminded us what this board is mainly about... THAT is why I'm inviting you to continue here... !

IIRC there was a plea to keep things on topic, not start another with a callout to Olga (happily she did not bite).  If I missed something please post a link to your last remarks in that thread.

You're going to have to revise your over-simplistic labelling of folk you can't / won't debate with

Your initial post was quite good and I responded in kind... went downhill from there into that same ol 'finger pointing' ctrap leading to nowhere soon.

Review http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8471.msg154678#msg154678 and let me know anything productive said therein.

As to debate, is there anything in this thread (other than your first post here) that was not completely covered in the last?  If so, lets concentrate on that point instead of throwing out buckets of stinky chum.