When the fantasy takes over...

[Kuna]

This morning I was reading a thread about a guy who was sending a girl $1000 per month, wanting to pursue a K1 but was delayed because the girl didn't have a birth certificate. It would seem to be an obvious and definite scam he was tied up in.

I find it difficult to rationalise how someone could make excuses for that ("No birth certificate honey but keep sending the money) but I guess it's just because the fantasy has taken over from reality.

I think it happens to many people... fat, ugly, old, boring people who think they're going to stroll in and scoop up an adoring sex-kitten...

We also see grossly old men with a very young woman fetish.  Some marry eventually... most, I'd suggest, die trying.

Men in obviously bad relationships (or not in relationships at all) but they make excuses for dreadful behaviour.

At what point does the fantasy take over?

How do you think men could or should keep their feet on the ground?

What did you do to maintain your reality?

What should newbies be careful of?

[Kuna]

OK... here's my thoughts on the subject...

Over the years I've seen different types of guys come through here.  The type who worries me most are the ones that have elaborate stories or make incredble excuses about their search/journey.

A few years ago I went to a forensic pathology seminar where the topic was writing analysis to identify lies (Don't ask me how I ended up there... it's an elaborate story)...  but anyway...  a core premise of the theory was that the more elaborate and complex the story written (evidence in this case) the more flags present that the story may not be true.

In fact... the story (evidence) may be written about an actual event, but if the story was too complex or highly detailed, the writer was likely to be trying to cover the facts by creating a very elaborate plot.


So...  for me...  when I see guys creating strange or even sometimes outlandish stories to explain events I usually feel that they have let the fantasy take over.



I think once you're living in the fantasy your subconscious would be sending off alarms but you would probably create stories to justify your actions.

If something feels good you want it to continue right???

If someone from the outside sees an oddity in it - of course you'll defend your actions because someone is about to try to bring you down from that euphoric high.



I think the guy sending the $1k per month to the girl with no birth certificate MUST know something is wrong but he's resisting having to let go of the awesome feeling of being in love... even if it's not love.


There's LOTS of other examples in RWD and in the huge majority of cases they almost always end up as failed relationships...  were they relationships to begin with or was it just a fantasy from the start??

Who knows...  I feel sorry for the guys caught up in it though.


Anyway... it's got me thinking about the point at which the fantasy takes over...  maybe it's during the writing start...  maybe when the first letter/response is received.  It might even be after the first meeting and when you're already into the physical relationship but I think for some it's obviously hrd to seperate the fantasy from the reality.

This, to my mind, is the greatest cause of failure in this search...  Not being able to maintain a grasp on reality.

[GoodOlBoy]

I think it happens to many people... fat, ugly, old, boring people who think they're going to stroll in and scoop up an adoring sex-kitten...We also see grossly old men with a very young woman fetish.  Some marry eventually... most, I'd suggest, die trying.

FWIW...GOB's advice is very simple, if you are 50 or 60 years old, DON'T chase FSUW 20 or 30 something years old.

I don't care how "young" you think you look....trust me, you are only making a fool of yourself!


GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

Who knows... I feel sorry for the guys caught up in it though

Why Kuna??...Studip is as stupid does! (Forrest Gump) 


GOB

[Kuna]

Why Kuna??...Studip is as stupid does! 


GOB

Yeah I know...  but there are some good guys that come in here and for the lack of experience they do stupid things.  I bet in hindsight MOST (but still not all) will admit they did stupid things.  They're the ones I feel sorry for.

Let's be honest - there's more than a few mongels going to FSU looking for a wife - or sex - or whatever.  I have no pity for the men that use or abuse.  The liars and the manipulators.  I feel nothing for them as it crashes down (except maybe a little joy) because their intentions were wrong to start with.

I still do feel sorry for the ones who had the right intentions but lacked the experience to make the right decisions...



OK,  I will add ONE qualifying statement...  If a guy has experience but still lets the fantasy take over he gets all he deserves.  If someone has stuffed up and not learned from his mistakes he deserves to get another serving of humiliation and pain...  I don't feel sorry for those that just should have known better!

[JR]

My rules for avoiding fantasy:

1. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it's a pretty good bet you're looking at a duck. Ignore this first simple rule and you create your own peril.

2. SET BOUNDARIES and stick to them, IE: Do Not Send Money. Do not fall in love with a photo. Don't make promises you can't keep, etc, etc.

3. DETACH yourself and look at the situation objectively. What would be your advice if the situation were happening to your best friend instead of yourself?

4. ALWAYS bounce things off of friends or people (RWD) who are not emotionally involved.

5. NEVER ignore red flags.

6. NEVER justify your behavior or that of another person.

7. IF you have the tendency to do this: ___________, catch yourself when you feel it happening and remind yourself that you do indeed do this. This goes a long with not justifying behavior.

I try to do these things to keep myself grounded and not let fantasy take over.

[ECOCKS]

I kept my feet on the ground by staying realistic. By that, I mean that I picked a reasonable age range (despite my youthful appearance  ), women who lived reasonably close to my location and some personal standards in education, English and children. EOI were sent, from those that were answered I began emailing, then phone conversations and at all times I made clear that my plans were:

* An extended dating period (turned out to be 8 mos.)
* Being clear that I expected the relationship to be monogamous after the first 3-4 dates
* Living modestly in the FSU for at least 2 years, each working regular jobs
* Lots of home time and normal dates in regular restaurants, attractions, etc.
* One or two vacations a year
* All that followed by a multi-year period in the Far East, Turkey or maybe one of the -stans  before returning to the USA

Seems to have worked so far.

[Faux Pas]

Be honest with yourself and date in your league physically, emotionally, intellectually and financially. I didn't mention age on purpose because large age differences can span each of those but, they are the exception and not the rule. I wouldn't encourage anyone who thought they were the exception. Of course they don't usually need any encouragement 

[kievstar]

Some men are a little lazy and really focus on work and can only visit maybe 2-3 times a year and decide to send money to keep their girl.  Many times the man tells a girl I will support you.  So who is the real scammer the girl taking the 1,000 a month or the man not putting the effort and promising money?  We usually hear about the mans story on this board and never the girl.  This girl may need more time with this guy and uses the birth certificate as an excuse.  A real man would go to her country and take her to get a birth certificate.  She refuses than dump her. 

Here is a true story.

A girl dates a mid 30 year old man for12 months and during that period they do they k-1 with an engagement ring.  This guy brings some of his relatives to Kiev to meet this girl prior to her coming to USA.  Prior to this he is in Kiev at least once a month.  One of his relatives tells this girl he has been divorced 3 times in past 10 years.  He said he was never married in past to the Kiev girl.  The girl does not know what to do as she has a K-1 but no longer loves this man for good reason.  This guy also has been giving about 1 to 2,000 per month which is very small for Kiev standards.  She ends up giving back the ring and goes to the USA to meet another guy with her K-1. 

Just before the K-1 period is up for the K-1 they want to marry in USA but she cannot as she came to the USA under another mans name.  She goes back to Kiev.  This guy says he is to busy to go to Kiev in next 6 months.  This girl than dumps this guy.  This guy tells everybody she is a scammer.  This girl does love money and she has gotten paid trips and other expensive gifts from other men but I can tell you she never asks.  Men just open up their wallets around her.  She met two lazy men who both were under 40 and had 6 figure jobs and were in good shape.  She now only dates men over 45 who want 2 children as she thinks there more mature.  I have not talked with her in about 9 months as she is not the type of girl my wife would like but I have noticed all her profiles just came off the dating sites recently meaning she has met another man.  I will call her on her birthday and I am sure she will have more stories about a 3rd lazy man.  Very hard for the women to find a good man but very easy for a man to find a good RW.  Any guy who struggles to find a RW is either not serious, lies a lot, or dating out of his league.   

My point is there are more scammer men than women in RW dating.  Many men lie, promise money, make few trips.  Really do not put the effort. 

[I/O]

Kuna: "At what point does the fantasy take over"? I contend it took over long before they found this means to articulate it. 

[SMS60]

Kuna: "At what point does the fantasy take over"? I contend it took over long before they found this means to articulate it. 

Very true. I would say some men have "idealized" a relationship and or women before logging on to the computer or meeting for the first time.

This always traces back to the way they feel about their "self".

[I/O]

This always traces back to the way they feel about their "self".

Methinks.

[NJ]

My point is there are more scammer men than women in RW dating.  Many men lie, promise money, make few trips.  Really do not put the effort.

Good point.

But then if there are such a big amount of real non-scammers from both sides, why so many people (both WM ans RW) face scum? I believe it's because scummers are the ones that sell dream.
1) I doubt that any normal RW will tell you she loves you after few letters. Scammer will.
2) No RW will express her sexual desires towards a WM after few letters. Scammer will.
3) No normal RW will send you a very Long letter describing how much she likes your picture and that she was dreaming all her life of a guy like you. She will tell it later but not in the beginning of correspondence.
4) RW will ask questions that may appear a bit inconvenient for you (like reasons for divorce, your bad habits etc). Scammer will ask only questions you like.
5) Real RW will bring her rules to relationships. Scammer is happy with everything as long as you love her (and send some cash).
6) Real RW would not be describing her life like a nighmare in awefull living conditions just to make a man to fell sorry for them and to make him want to help her.


7) Real WM will never say that he wants to marry a RW and have kids with her within first couple letters.
Real WM and real RW when they are interested in a person will never say "I don't have a birth certificate so we can't be together", "I don't know where I can get a Russian visa to come and see you so I'll not go". If they are not scammers they will find the way out.  

So my point is: IF IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE REAL THERE IS A BIG CHANCE IT IS NOT REAL    

[janic]

A few years ago I went to a forensic pathology seminar where the topic was writing analysis to identify lies

Do you still have a script you would share or maybe some books you would recommend?

I would be _very_ interested.

Greets, j.

[BillyB]

.
5) Real RW will bring her rules to relationships. Scammer is happy with everything as long as you love her (and send some cash).

Real RW can demand financial support and they aren't scammers. They actually believe this is the way dating is and the way a man proves himself to her. A RW translator mentioned something similar in another thread and I've talked to a few women who think that's the way it works too. I guess too many guys spoiling them to make them believe it's the norm.

 On the other extreme of the spectrum I've had women watch my money carefully not taking me to any place overpriced, haggling over taxi fare to get the rock bottom price and refusing money I tried to give her for the metro.

[ECOCKS]

As BillyB notes above, there are those who watch your money like it's their own (I mean that in a very positive way). I remember that my wife was that type from the beginning. I always had to push her to get better seats at the opera, buy the whole train compartment for a trip, order a better glass of wine with her meal, pick up a new blouse at a store and so on.

Every guy is different though and long before I went to the FSU I realized there are guys whose egos demand women who "live large" as a symbol of their manliness. Other guys like women who are more understated and low key as they move through life. If you find the woman you want, then you're a lucky man. However, if you are continually wincing everytime she goes into a store, plans a trip or dresses "like a hooker" for a business dinner, you're in trouble.

[Misha]

If you find the woman you want, then you're a lucky man.

The challenge, I gather, is for men to figure out what kind of woman they really need and then to make sure they will want that type of woman 

[BC]

The challenge, I gather, is for men to figure out what kind of woman they really need and then to make sure they will want that type of woman 

Along the lines of 'be careful for what you pray for.. - you just might get it'.

Overall, the guy that stumbles across a RW related website and gets it in his head to seek such is in a world of hurt.  If my best friend asked me about the venture I would tell him to piss off as it regards this subject.  There have been a couple that asked.

[ECOCKS]

Both GQ and BC make good points that I just regard as givens.

A man should know what he REALLY wants and be prepared for it when he gets it.

That doesn't say what he thinks he wants or what he even what he fantasizes about, although some of our fantasies are things we really could use and enjoy positively.

[Sculpto]

My point is there are more scammer men than women in RW dating.  Many men lie, promise money, make few trips.  Really do not put the effort. 

Truer words are rarely spoken on the forums.  Thank you Kiev.

[Gator]

Kuna,

The word “fantasy” is negative.  Some of the greatest accomplishments in history were made by men armed with little more than a “vision.”

Any man who pursues a RW is pushing conventional boundaries.  All of us had to think outside the box. 

Some men, such as me, have stretched far beyond these boundaries.  What is a stretch?  To be much older than the RW?  To be butt ugly and pursue a beauty?  To be grossly overweight?  To lack financial resources?  To have an IQ far less than the RW’s?  To take a big city girl to a village?  To be socially inept and woo Ms. Personality?  To be humorless? To not have the time to get to know a RW?


I remind you of the risk-reward equation.  I consider it applicable provided the man does the following: a) manages risks (especially willing to walk away without regret) and b) does not lament about negative consequences. 

I also remind you of personal choices.

[BillyB]

My point is there are more scammer men than women in RW dating.  Many men lie, promise money, make few trips.  Really do not put the effort. 

From my experience, many women don't put out the effort either. Some ask me to visit them and I would tell them I need to learn more about them and talk to them on the phone and would like to see more photos of them but they make little effort to grant me my wishes. It doesn't take them much to write and ask every man out there to come visit them. So I don't visit those type of women and I'd be just another keyboard romeo in their minds that will never make a trip to the FSU. Truth is if they gave me the effort I require of them and build a friendship with me first, I'd visit.

I understand why some women don't want to give me a maximum effort and it doesn't mean they're bad. Maybe they've lost faith in the process based off bad experiences and not into trying hard. Maybe I'm attractive to their eyes but 10 other guys are better looking so they have little time to communicate with me. Maybe they have no interest in me at all and I'm just another guy who'd buy them a fancy dinner if I take them up on their offer to visit. Many other reasons. Regardless of the many reasons out there, I will only visit a woman who gives me what I want. How hard is it for her to give me more photos and some quality phone time anyway? If a sincere RW is interested and attracted to you, she will make the effort to know you and to please you. Ignore the lazy and rude RW.

[Misha]

All of us had to think outside the box.

True, but based on some stories that I have read here and in other forums, I sometimes wonder whether some of the men were thinking at all  :evil:

[JR]

Some men, such as me, have stretched far beyond these boundaries.  What is a stretch?  To be much older than the RW?  To be butt ugly and pursue a beauty?  To be grossly overweight?  To lack financial resources?  To have an IQ far less than the RW’s?  To take a big city girl to a village?  To be socially inept and woo Ms. Personality?  To be humorless? To not have the time to get to know a RW?


I remind you of the risk-reward equation.  I consider it applicable provided the man does the following: a) manages risks (especially willing to walk away without regret) and b) does not lament about negative consequences. 

I like what you say here Gator.

"Accept your limitations and they are yours." 

Stretching your boundaries means going into "Indian country" there's danger out there. You have to keep your eyes open and respond to reality.

[kievstar]

Billyb,  I do not know many people personally on RWD but I would not include many men on RWD in the scammer category.  Men who take the time to learn about this process and discuss it an open forum more than likely are not the bad men in this process.  There on RWD for many reasons but I believe mostly for the good.  Of course there are some strange men who visit for a week on RWD and than never heard from again but I think they tend to be teenage boys playing around waiting for late night cinemax to come on.   

The scammer men I am talking about probably never even heard of RWD or would waste there time on RWD.  I have lost track of how many times I have been through the Kiev airport but I know I will be close to 100 later this year within the past 5 years.  I never knew Ukraine was a country 5 years ago.  I have met many strange foreign men in Ukraine.  Many up to no good.  But for every man I have met looking for a RW less than 1% have heard of RWD or any other site.  There is a huge population of men looking for RW for sport, wife, etc.   I say sport as there are groups of men who have competitions on the best mistress they can get.  Sounds disgusting but this is what I run into in airports or sitting next to me on the plane.  In all my life I have never had an attractive woman sit next to me on the plane (accept wife) and have more than 1,000 trips this decade easily.  But I have had to many to count sex toursits or mistress hunting men on the 80-90 plus trips to Kiev and from Kiev right next to me.  I once did the New York to Kiev flight and never will do it again as I met so many dirt bags. These dirt bags did not live in NY just was the connection to Kiev.   

If you do enough business with certain agencies, the owners will open up and tell you what class of man really visits.  Not good.  I think my wife summed it up best - agencies and international dating is something just to have fun with and expect nothing.  This way no one is disappointed. 

I am happily married and really spent little time where I was not in a serious relationship in Ukraine.  I did go from girl to girl for awhile I just never met the scammer women that men speak about. I would even go out with women men accused as being scammers and just did not see it.