Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[GoodOlBoy]

.....I am going back to Ukraine in septembar -october.....

Ken1958, let me introduce you to our very own "in-house" mule spy....."Muddy". 

Now if you want to throw all logic and basic human civility out the window...Muddy has an answer for your dilemma.

Muddy will instruct you to take a computer spyware program (Keylogger) with you on your Sept./Oct. trip to the FSU and install it on your girlfriends computer!  :evil:

Then you will be instructed to come back to RWD and post the logs (for translation purposes only).

That way, you (and everybody else on RWD) will know exactly what your FSUW thinks of you.


GOB

[groovlstk]

I think KenC and 1958 are related, this is sad

Correct me if I'm wrong Muddy... but did Kens1958 or KenC send money on a monthly basis to support their gfs/fiancees? I'm not sure, but I know you did, Muddy.

Did Kens1958 or KenC propose marriage to women who intended to use them as mules for a trip to the land of milk & honey? I'm not sure, but I know you did, Muddy.

Did Kens1958 or KenC try to save face by lying about their gf's/wife's feelings towards them? I'm not sure, but I know you did, Muddy.

People who live in Saran-wrap houses shouldn't light fires inside, Muddy.

[GoodOlBoy]

If you don't mind Groovlstk, I would also like to add this to "Muddy's list of shame":

I haven't read anywhere on RWD where Kens1958 or KenC ever used a "Keylogger" program to spy on their ladies? I'm not sure, but I know you did, Muddy.


GOB

[Vaughn]

Suddenly it's become awfully quiet in here....

  I've committed a few venial sins along the way, and even dismissed them by declaring us
one of those "exceptional" couples....  spying was not among them, however.

  Here's hoping kens1958 shows up tonight and absorbs the good advice as offered in this
thread by several contributors.

[mies]

I have done the math with a male american mind in this scenario so, my assumption might be a bit more valid.

maybe you are right. Probably due to cultural or gender differences I view his spending in a slightly different light.
For example - he wanted to go to Yalta, he would need to rent the place to live there anyway. Since he didn't have interpreter - probably girls spoke at least some basic English. For a little extra price he got himself a company (if you want - escort without sex) of two hot girls, who i'm sure were helping him to get around in a "no English speaking" environment on more than one occasion.

From a point of view of a girl - there is nothing she owes him. Ken spent money on his fun-time. Period.
And don't tell me about food/restaurant bills. If a guy is so cheap that he counts how much he had spent on girl's dinner - he should take her to McDonalds - and not try to impress her trying to get into her panties, and then cry that his little trick didn't work and she wasn't impressed and he didn't get any quality time.

I don't give him any hope. I told him that this girl isn't a scammer, but she is way too young for him and she isn't interested in marrying him. Does it sound hopeful??

[tim 360]

Have to agree with Mies and others that this girl does not seem to be scamming kens1958.  If anything, he is scamming himself and paying for the company of two young hotties to dine and dance with and probably enjoying himself immensely.  He has a sort of fantasy going.  No big deal, he pays for dinners and dancing and miscellaneous expenses and he gets a couple pecks on the cheek.  If the girl were a scammer she would have had him over a barrel in no time.  And I get a feeling he would have gladly paid.  

kens1958 is simply paying to have a good time in his fantasy and his problem is he is thinking this could lead to marriage with this 23 year old (he is 51?) and that is highly doubtful.  From what I read the girl sure is not encouraging him to think she wants to marry him--rather it is the opposite.  Ain't gonna happen from what I read.

kens1958 you may want to look for more age-appropiate ladies if you want to get married.  28 years difference, c'mom now just what are you smoking?  The age difference thing will kill you sooner or later.

Like groovlstk said, if you are a celebrity or offering a lavish lifestyle maybe it will work for...awhile.  But I get the feeling that you are not a celebrity or a multi-millionaire so it will probably not work out with a 23 year old for you for very long.  Fantasy.

[Faux Pas]

maybe you are right. Probably due to cultural or gender differences I view his spending in a slightly different light.
For example - he wanted to go to Yalta, he would need to rent the place to live there anyway. Since he didn't have interpreter - probably girls spoke at least some basic English. For a little extra price he got himself a company (if you want - escort without sex) of two hot girls, who i'm sure were helping him to get around in a "no English speaking" environment on more than one occasion.

I'd wager they ALL wanted to go to Yalta

From a point of view of a girl - there is nothing she owes him. Ken spent money on his fun-time. Period.

Agreed. Still doesn't mean it was cheap or that he "didn't spend much".

And don't tell me about food/restaurant bills. If a guy is so cheap that he counts how much he had spent on girl's dinner - he should take her to McDonalds - and not try to impress her trying to get into her panties, and then cry that his little trick didn't work and she wasn't impressed and he didn't get any quality time.

I'm sure he paid as he should have and the man wasn't crying about it. In fact I thought him quite the opposite, happier than a pig in pooh. For some reason the poor guy thought this was normal behavior.

I don't give him any hope. I told him that this girl isn't a scammer, but she is way too young for him and she isn't interested in marrying him. Does it sound hopeful??

Maybe so but, you haven't exactly pointed out the fallacy of his situation either. The age difference, the lack of affection, the friend on the holiday (the gifts and money, if they exist) are all red flags screaming to be noticed IMO

[Vaughn]

The age difference, the lack of affection, the friend on the holiday (the gifts and money, if they exist) are all red flags screaming to be noticed IMO

Oh, I think he noticed - but was seeking confirmation of those feelings. After all, he's got
plans to visit other women soon - in another city. The question is - will he repeat the pattern,
or enhance his prospects? Way back in the thread, I believe it was BC who brought up the
"motivation" angle - is kens1958 trying to match the good fortune of his work partner - landing
a lady who grows "hotter and sweeter" with time ? Personally, I'd like to see him focus, as many
have suggested, on a more mature lady - one more likely to commit to the long haul, without
sacrificing the attractiveness he seeks.   

[Muddy]

Its sad, what happened to KenC is going to happen to Ken1958, sooooo sad!
Poor KenC was wrong about so many things just like Ken1958, this so sad guys.

[mies]

.

[BC]

Its sad, what happened to KenC is going to happen to Ken1958, sooooo sad!
Poor KenC was wrong about so many things just like Ken1958, this so sad guys.

Muddy, you are one very sick phuck.

[Faux Pas]

Oh, I think he noticed - but was seeking confirmation of those feelings. After all, he's got
plans to visit other women soon - in another city. The question is - will he repeat the pattern,
or enhance his prospects? Way back in the thread, I believe it was BC who brought up the
"motivation" angle - is kens1958 trying to match the good fortune of his work partner - landing
a lady who grows "hotter and sweeter" with time ? Personally, I'd like to see him focus, as many
have suggested, on a more mature lady - one more likely to commit to the long haul, without
sacrificing the attractiveness he seeks.   

I agree Vaughn. Dude has received some insightful information here. I hope he uses it wisely. We see so many of these guys (clueless to reality) buying into the hype that the laws of the jungle do not somehow pertain because                 "fill-in-the-blank" and this is the FSU. The real aspects of a man/woman relationship it seems never enter into the equation. kens1958 does seem like a nice guy and I hope he does well but, one has to wonder sometimes "what are they thinking"?

[BillyB]

Only God shall judge.

Back in ancient history it was appropriate in many cultures for men to marry women much younger than themselves as long as the man is a good provider. Even in modern times men of all ages crave younger women. We're suckers to beautiful women youthful women. Most may not admit it but look at the evidence. Porn magazines with old women and old prostitutes don't sell well.

Ken's attraction for younger women is more normal than abnormal. Whether or not he has sincere intentions is for God to judge. If Ken pursues this, that's between him and his lady. All he needs to understand is the risks and the poor odds for success. Most relationships with large age gaps don't work long term for a variety of reasons. Those relationships that last forever may not be anywhere near perfect. the relationship may be cold because the younger woman may not be affectionate with her man as she would with a younger man. The older man may not be able to respect his wife if she's not mature at his level. This is bad for a marriage.

Ken, based off your first post you are looking hard for all the right things about your lady but yet you crave more out of the relationship. More attention and more physical affection signs. You are not getting what you want out of this relationship so you come here for answers. Your lady put up a few barriers, one being marriage is not to be discussed for a year. That with the k-1, you're possibly looking at close to 2 years without any serious physical affection. If she herself can hold back for 2 years, she may continue to hold back to some degree into marriage, Is the her lack of desire to satisfy physical needs what you want in your marriage?

[Boethius]

When i just started looking, i thought i could marry a guy like 20 years older, but as i met them, i understood, there is no way in hell id marry someone who isnt attractive, and 99 percent of people at 40 are already unattractive.

This made me laugh.  To every thing there is a season.  Your views of what is attractive will change when you are 40.

Just keep in mind the proverb, "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill".

Back in ancient history it was appropriate in many cultures for men to marry women much younger than themselves as long as the man is a good provider.

Yes, but those marriages were usually about the devolution of property.  Plus, there were always lots of young warriors/officers around.

Tolstoy mocked such marriages in Resurrection.

The Russians/Ukrainians here will know this.  Title - UNEQUAL MARRIAGE






I won’t make a judgment about the age difference.  This is someone of legal age, a mother, and certainly old enough to make her own decisions.  And, there are younger women who are happily married to much older men.  However, it is a fact that most young women, world over, are attracted to young men, not much older men.  But, as Ukrainians say, when there is no meat available, you eat fish.  Younger men are not visiting Ukraine for brides as much as are older men, and young men who do visit don’t have to settle for a woman with a child.  This young lady’s subsequent actions (talking on skype every night) suggests she is becoming acclimatized to the idea that “this may be it” in terms of her (short term) marital prospects.  So, I don’t think everything is as negative as some posters have assumed.  We don't know what her thoughts are.

Where I believe issues will arise will be if Ken marries this woman and settles in the U.S.  Suddenly, this young lady will have options, in terms of men closer to her own age, available to her that are not available to her in Ukraine.  Long term, the stats are against him.  If Ken is okay with that (some men are), fine - he can go in with his eyes open.  And, perhaps his marriage will defy the stats.  But if he is looking for a wife til death do us part, this may not be such a great idea.

Finally, to all who believe a big age gap is not an issue, while every relationship is its own way unique, most Western men marrying FSU women already need to deal with issues such as linguistic and cultural differences.  Imagine dating a 23 year old AW, and the cultural chasms faced, even coming from the same country, language, and general culture.  Why is it assumed it will somehow be easier with a Ukrainian woman?  

[ScottinCrimea]

We're seeing the same scenario here that we have seen countless times.  Someone comes on with a post about his situation and asking for ideas and advice.  The members speak up, but unfortunately it is not what he wants to hear so we go on our merry way debating the situation and offering advise and the OP never returns to offer additional information or ask for clarification because he is not hearing what he wants to hear.  Some 50 pages later the debate evolves into something totally different while the OP has moved onto another forum where he hopes to get some validation.  In this case, the OP's failure to provide follow-up information or questions shows clearly that he is not really interested in the truths we have to offer.  so we can go on infinitely discussing his case, but ultimately, unless he is a part of the discussion, we are wasting our breath.

He can't handle the truth.

[Aloe]

This made me laugh.  To every thing there is a season.  Your views of what is attractive will change when you are 40.

the lady in question in this thread is not 40, she is 23. And the guy in question is not 40, he is 51. Do you really think there is physical attraction on her side?

[GregfromGa]

I think KenC and 1958 are related, this is sad

Why do you continue to bring KenC into this? KenC is one of the most respected posters ever on this board. All I see from you is a stupid looking avatar with absolutely no substance to anything you write. Now since I'll be in Kiev from Sept 24th -October 6th, staying on Khreshatic St next to Independence Sq and hanging out in Obriens. I'll be easy to find if you would like to discuss my feelings about how useless you really are to this site. And of course I can be just about anywhere within driving distance of South Georgia.

[Faux Pas]

Why do you continue to bring KenC into this? KenC is one of the most respected posters ever on this board. All I see from you is a stupid looking avatar with absolutely no substance to anything you write. Now since I'll be in Kiev from Sept 24th -October 6th, staying on Khreshatic St next to Independence Sq and hanging out in Obriens. I'll be easy to find if you would like to discuss my feelings about how useless you really are to this site. And of course I can be just about anywhere within driving distance of South Georgia.

Muddy is like that relative (we all have one) that the parents only talked about in a whisper. A mean-spirited, nasty little man that finds perverse pleasure in the misfortune of others. He's doomed to the pitiful little existence he enjoys here on this forum. He's not big enough nor brave enough to make these kind of pot-shots in person and he is a mousey meek little man that smiles at you and all the time thinking how your head would look smashed with a brick. Something like this

[kens1958]

OK every one that responded to my post.... Thank you  I have been reading all of them with great intrest...
I have many comments and many answers to your questions........ but I do not wish to throw meat to the sharks and just re energize a feeding frenzy.......
For those of you that worry about me... please don't.... I am a big boy and I have not been tricked , coned or otherwise influenced to do anything I did not want to do...... As stated or implied in my first post I had many dates in Ukraine with many different woman.... It is just that ... this one in particular..... connected with me on a deeper level.
To be clear.... I went looking to date girls in the 30 to 35 age range.....this is because I am financially secure and I desire to have children with my wife after marriage..
The young girls found me .... I did not find them....????? I not quite as poor or ugly as many of you think .. nor as stupid ..... but I am ignorant about the whole FSU vs American paring...... It might please many of you to know I received much of the same advice from my partners Russian wife.....Also my mother is still alive and she approves of my activities and even advises me on which girls would be good for me....Lastly I will say I have spent my whole life walking against the crowed..... one of my favorite quotes from youth " work like no one is willing... so you can live as no one is able" I never have been a blind follower..... I have not responded sooner because ALL OF THE POST WERE SO GREAT AND HAD SO MUCH THAT I COULD LEARN FROM.. for that I thank all of you.... as I continue my education...I apologize up front for by ignorants, bad grammar, bad taste and all other offences that I may have committed...   .... for thouse of you that must ... have fun with this

[Boethius]

the lady in question in this thread is not 40, she is 23. And the guy in question is not 40, he is 51. Do you really think there is physical attraction on her side?

I never posted that.  Just that it made me laugh.

[Faux Pas]

OK every one that responded to my post.... Thank you  I have been reading all of them with great intrest...
I have many comments and many answers to your questions........ but I do not wish to throw meat to the sharks and just re energize a feeding frenzy.......
For those of you that worry about me... please don't.... I am a big boy and I have not been tricked , coned or otherwise influenced to do anything I did not want to do...... As stated or implied in my first post I had many dates in Ukraine with many different woman.... It is just that ... this one in particular..... connected with me on a deeper level.
To be clear.... I went looking to date girls in the 30 to 35 age range.....this is because I am financially secure and I desire to have children with my wife after marriage..
The young girls found me .... I did not find them....????? I not quite as poor or ugly as many of you think .. nor as stupid ..... but I am ignorant about the whole FSU vs American paring...... It might please many of you to know I received much of the same advice from my partners Russian wife.....Also my mother is still alive and she approves of my activities and even advises me on which girls would be good for me....Lastly I will say I have spent my whole life walking against the crowed..... one of my favorite quotes from youth " work like no one is willing... so you can live as no one is able" I never have been a blind follower..... I have not responded sooner because ALL OF THE POST WERE SO GREAT AND HAD SO MUCH THAT I COULD LEARN FROM.. for that I thank all of you.... as I continue my education...I apologize up front for by ignorants, bad grammar, bad taste and all other offences that I may have committed...   .... for thouse of you that must ... have fun with this

kens1958

Few members and posters here are sharks. None of us (staring at Muddy) wish you any harm or bad luck in your venture. Understand we have seen many guys come and post almost your same story verbatim and one or two things usually happen at that point. They continue to post and ignore the advice given and we watch the impending train wreck unfold. (Check the archives.) Or, they disappear altogether and we assume they didn't follow the advice and to ashamed to come back. Then there are a few, very few, that do heed the advice and learn from it. I picked you early on as the latter or else I wouldn't even had posted on your thread in the first place.

None of us are 100% right or correct in our advice. But we all for the most part offer some modicum of good advice and it will require you to decipher it and figure out which is you to follow. It may appear to you that we are all in disagreement on which is right and which is wrong but, there is much here members did agree on. You should look at that very closely.

Look, because you have chosen a girl 28 years younger than yourself does not make you a bad guy. But, I feel that for a seemingly otherwise regular dude you are fooling yourself. To put such a comparison in perspective, how attracted are you to a 79 year old woman? That may seem like a leap to you but it is the very same comparison to a 23 yr old girl.

kens1958, stick around read and learn. You do seem like a nice, earnest guy that can be successful at this. You have to remember any relationship of any kind has to work for both parties or it ceases to be a relationship.

[Blues Fairy]

To be clear.... I went looking to date girls in the 30 to 35 age range.....this is because I am financially secure and I desire to have children with my wife after marriage..
The young girls found me .... I did not find them....

What makes you think they found you with an idea of marriage in their heads? 
It's most likely a matter of prestige for a 23-y-o to brag to her friends that she has a 51-y-o American admirer who takes her to Yalta and buys her roses.  No scam here, but definitely no serious intentions on her part either.  If you really want a family and kids, you would be wise not to waste your time on this girl and look for someone closer to your age and goals.

[GoodOlBoy]

To put such a comparison in perspective, how attracted are you to a 79 year old woman?

Excellent post FP!! 

If you don't mind I would like to "borrow" you visual aide reference for future postings?

It really drives home the point (about large age differences).


GOB

[lovelyannie]

Hello guys, i havent been here for long, i just logged in to check on you and was interested by Ken's topic. So i would like to share my opinion if you dont mind.
What i think.... first, yes, the girl is probably too young for Ken - he should seek an older partner. Its very unlikely he or anyone can be happy with such age gap. But its not the age which is the main thing. Obviously, the girl is not into Ken since she hadn't had sex with him.
You know, i am egaged to an american guy who is 58, i am 36, someone might think i am too young for him, but i am madly in love with him. Before he visited me in Russia in November 2008 i had some concerns about whether i would be sexually attracted to him or not. Of course i wanted to see him in person, and to enjoy being with him as we started really wonderful relationship sicne April 2008 using Skype video calls. But i had that fear that i might not  like him when he is close to me, not to feel any chemistry, which is necessary for having sex. Fortunatelly i was wrong and my fears disappeared since i saw my Markie in the airport and took him by the hand!  The only idea i had when i first saw him was "Thats my man!"  he is not Mr. Universe, a bit overweight, and just looks as a normal guy of his age looks. But i dont need anyone else. I only want him, i am horny for him/ I remember myself waking up ext to him, and it was such a joy - to have him next to me in bed, when we were together in my town. By the way - i didnt introduce him to my Moma, as she hates the idea of my moving to the states and could ruin our wonderful week easily.
Right now we are planning our frist vacation together - we are flying to Ukraine in a week, and i cant wait  to hold my 58 years old sweetheart!
Just believe, Ken, there is a girl in this world who will love you as i love my Markie! You didnt find her yet!
you know, a thought just occured to me  - I have a beautiful girlfriend! She is 38 and has a daughter of 12. She is a perfect house wife. She only doesnt speak English, but i can translate for you, if you like!    i can introduce you if you want.

[GoodOlBoy]

To be clear.... I went looking to date girls in the 30 to 35 age range.....this is because I am financially secure and I desire to have children with my wife after marriage..

Hey Ken.

No offense intended here, BUT....You are already in your 50's and still looking for a wife and talking about having children one day??

If I can be so bold as to ask:

What took you so long to make this decision?


GOB


BTW....When I started this whole thing (dating FSUW) 6 years ago, I was 47 and I had MANY 20 something year old "schoolgirls" contact me. I just paid no attention to them.